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Info: Inevitability

Deleted due to being tested and found to be full of crap.
 
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Me Really Never said:
ive tested it with a stupid tt finder and used it up completely on a field where i usually could only place like 4 drops max. you can see it on the picture. i didnt really track hitrate here but rather how many claims on a small area and i just ran in there in circles and got 11 claims outta that tt finder on a spot for only 3-4 drops



now you can go and mine the shit outta a small area which has dianthus or pyrite and just kill the market price on it :D

edit: did a second test run this time with f101 on an area about the same size as before (4 usual drops) and did 50 drops only on ore with it. i just got 3 claims... this is indeed pretty weird.
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Except you can't because there's still caps per hour or whatever on things like pyrite and dianthus so you can't over farm them. But what you can do is cycle TT stupid fast and if you can squeeze out 115% markup you'll make a lot of money.
 
Rocket192 said:
Yes I'll make it a VOD that can be viewed outside of stream time. I don't have a YouTube account, but I can record the stream. I'll probably play without music or with non-commercial music since you're going to need to hear what's going on. Also, stream time will likely be closer to 21:00 now. A full write up will be provided when I finish collecting at least one month of data so I have a fair comparison.

Damn barber got sick and cancelled my haircut, now I can't look fly on stream tonight

My initial conclusions are that claims are only generated upon clicking "use tool" and that the field seems to move as your avatar moves and even resets after you mine up a claim. Any time I double-drop without moving = NRF. Anytime I drop without mining last claim = 100% chance of NRF unless outside of the original search radius.

Let me be clear: THIS DOES NOT RESULT IN A TT ADVANTAGE.. at least it doesn't seem to. Instead, I get a huge reduction in variance.. 95-110% TT every run of 500 drops despite no swirls over 150 ped. Every miner knows this is more than an anomaly, but rather impossible. I don't know the mechanism behind it unless Multis are generated based on looting events/hour, which I think they are in most cases. I'd like to compare it to Yahtzee, at least that's how it feels while I'm mining.

The advantage this DOES seem to provide is: I CAN MINE WIH AUTO-USE ON OUTDOORS AND SUFFER NO TT PENALTY... basically I can cycle ped 3x faster with drastically reduced variance.
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Try re-equipping your tool without mining up the claim :)
 
Okay so i took some time and did a few tests on this matter...

i took an f101 finder so i have "normal" amount of probes used per run (i think tt finder might screw results due to too low probe comsumption in comparison to "normal" loot pool size)

i picked a place on the NE side of TI as its kinda flat and no mobs.

i ran in one direction and dropped probes in different range increments. and for every test i did 30-50 drops. not a huge sample but the enough to make a few observations
i started off with a 1m difference between drops, no matter if i found something or not. i had a whooping 1,8% hitrate.
next i did 5m distances. hitrate was a little higher but only due to 2 double hits at start. after the start the hitrate went down veery fast and ended with +-8%.
then 10m, 15m, 20, 25m. all had hitrates between +- 8% and 14%
and now the interesting part. as soon as the distance between the drops reached 30m i suddenly got a normal hitrate of a little bit over 30%. as countertest i started off again with 20m and it was the same again and then switched to 30m and instantly became normal hitrates again.

on a side note: i havent mined the claims and i didnt reequip the finder. i tried those 2 things on the smaller range runs a bit and it seems a little better when drilling up the claims when using ranges of <25m but the hitrate was still sub 15%

now i was thinking about what happens between 25m range and 30m range. well the finder range is 54m and the claims appear in a 54m range radius randomly if a claim is found but there might be 2 things operating here. the first is the actual search radius that the server recognizes. maybe this is programmed as 54m diameter which would be 27m. that would mean that if the distance between 2 drops of this finder is bigger than 27m i have a normal chance to find something. if it is smaller the chance to find something gets exponentially smaller.
the second part is the claim generation if all parameters for finding a claim have green light it may place a claim somewhere inside a 54m radius and not diameter.
of course this could be just a coincidence but the difference is easily observable. also it might be a bug or it is intended to be that way. only way to know for sure would be MA revealing something like they did on hunting lately with loot 2.0 change.

maybe someone could countercheck this and see if they can reproduce the results.
all tests were made in the same area and directly after another so the factor of an area being hot or not shouldnt matter here

i guess ill configure my lbml now to show me a 15m finder range to tests this a little longer.
 
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here a little cutout of my lbml with 15m radius (so distance between drops is 30m). the start was a little bit rough but still 27% hitrate +-
 
Me Really Never said:
Okay so i took some time and did a few tests on this matter...

i took an f101 finder so i have "normal" amount of probes used per run (i think tt finder might screw results due to too low probe comsumption in comparison to "normal" loot pool size)

i picked a place on the NE side of TI as its kinda flat and no mobs.

i ran in one direction and dropped probes in different range increments. and for every test i did 30-50 drops. not a huge sample but the enough to make a few observations
i started off with a 1m difference between drops, no matter if i found something or not. i had a whooping 1,8% hitrate.
next i did 5m distances. hitrate was a little higher but only due to 2 double hits at start. after the start the hitrate went down veery fast and ended with +-8%.
then 10m, 15m, 20, 25m. all had hitrates between +- 8% and 14%
and now the interesting part. as soon as the distance between the drops reached 30m i suddenly got a normal hitrate of a little bit over 30%. as countertest i started off again with 20m and it was the same again and then switched to 30m and instantly became normal hitrates again.

on a side note: i havent mined the claims and i didnt reequip the finder. i tried those 2 things on the smaller range runs a bit and it seems a little better when drilling up the claims when using ranges of <25m but the hitrate was still sub 15%

now i was thinking about what happens between 25m range and 30m range. well the finder range is 54m and the claims appear in a 54m range radius randomly if a claim is found but there might be 2 things operating here. the first is the actual search radius that the server recognizes. maybe this is programmed as 54m diameter which would be 27m. that would mean that if the distance between 2 drops of this finder is bigger than 27m i have a normal chance to find something. if it is smaller the chance to find something gets exponentially smaller.
the second part is the claim generation if all parameters for finding a claim have green light it may place a claim somewhere inside a 54m radius and not diameter.
of course this could be just a coincidence but the difference is easily observable. also it might be a bug or it is intended to be that way. only way to know for sure would be MA revealing something like they did on hunting lately with loot 2.0 change.

maybe someone could countercheck this and see if they can reproduce the results.
all tests were made in the same area and directly after another so the factor of an area being hot or not shouldnt matter here

i guess ill configure my lbml now to show me a 15m finder range to tests this a little longer.
Click to expand...

Hang on ...... The thing that always bugged me about the 110m diameter is that it does not fit evenly inside a 8192m server. I think we are looking for a square number such as say 32 or 64, at least that is divisible into a 8192 server.

But we know this happens .... and this was FOUR MONTHS ago Link

"I am now able to consistently obtain this result. Goto coordinate X,Y, get nothing. goto coordinate X1,Y1 where the distance is about 27m from x,y and find deposits where none should exist. The new mining sheet predicts that it should happen, and depending on variables outside of the scope of the mining sheet, it does !!!" - R4tt3xx

Wait I have archives of what sheet I was using ..... :) Will check as soon as I get home ....

Hindsight is a b1tch !!!
 
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A huge factor in all of this seems to be no more tha 40-50% overlap of last drop, and mining up the claims directly after they appear... this seems to "reset" the field or whatever...

When leaving claims out = 9.14% hit rate over 90-something drops
When drilling claims as they appear = 30%+ hit rate over 90-something drops


Also, the area seems to have a lot to do with this... i.e. it doesn't seem to work in areas with higher markup resources or only 1-2 resources.
 
ive done another 4 runs with 100 double drops each in NE TI area.

2 with 15m range in lbml (30m between drops). one with mining the claims up directly and one without

2 with 20m range in lbml (40m between drops) and again one with drilling and one without.

the interesting thign is all 4 runs ended with a hitrate of 21-23%... thats better than someone would expect with this kind of overlapping but still far from the results rocket provided in his stream. there is still some kind of secret we ned to figure out. but on all those runs the overlapping is less than 50%. dont wanne pull out the hard math here but from looking at lbml it looks like somewhere in the 40% overlapping range

drilling up or not didnt make a difference at all here for me. maybe i should do some normal distance runs to countercheck the "normal" hitrate there

and ill test it with 30m in lbml which would be just outside the actual search radius of the drop before but still with lots of overlapping

on a side note: not a single multiplier so far


small update: did a 100 double drop run on the same area same finder etc etc with lbml range of 30m (so 60m between drops). this means its right outside the search radius of the last drop.
the hitrate here was 31,5% without drilling the claims up

the tests lead me to a conclusion... it may work like this:
the system notes down the coordinates of e.g. the last 100 drops per person. these entries get overwritten when going over 100 drops or the oldest entries get deleted after 1 hour. (all this is just an example, not sure if a programer would do it like that)
now when you drop the system quickly checks those last 100 entries for the coordinates and puts them in a formula. when you are closer than the search radius of the finder used then the chance to hit decreases with decreasing range to the latest coordinates. if you are outside the finder radius you got the maximum possible chance to find something (i think latest theories say its between 30% and 33%). this would mean that the overlapping is irrelevant when you are at least slightly outside the search radius of the drops before.
this would assure that you cant continually drop on the same spot, would explain the increasing hitrate with increasing range, up to the finder range distance between drops, would explain why indoors is a faster "resource respawn" due to the 100 drops being faster than outdoors.
what it doesnt explain is the lack of multipliers. though this is hard to test as they are very rare nowadays

this would also mean that best search density would be using lbml with the finder range set to: (finder range / 2) + 1 (or +0,5 or whatever) and then carpet bomb with it to get the most out of small areas with maximum hitrate

this doesnt give any kind of tt advantage but it makes planetside mining a lot nicer
 
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Me Really Never said:
ive done another 4 runs with 100 double drops each in NE TI area.

2 with 15m range in lbml (30m between drops). one with mining the claims up directly and one without

2 with 20m range in lbml (40m between drops) and again one with drilling and one without.

the interesting thign is all 4 runs ended with a hitrate of 21-23%... thats better than someone would expect with this kind of overlapping but still far from the results rocket provided in his stream. there is still some kind of secret we ned to figure out. but on all those runs the overlapping is less than 50%. dont wanne pull out the hard math here but from looking at lbml it looks like somewhere in the 40% overlapping range

drilling up or not didnt make a difference at all here for me. maybe i should do some normal distance runs to countercheck the "normal" hitrate there

and ill test it with 30m in lbml which would be just outside the actual search radius of the drop before but still with lots of overlapping

on a side note: not a single multiplier so far
Click to expand...

I should notify that I've been unable to reproduce the results on RT...

might be something specific to ark mining
 
I tested this again last night using 2x Level 5 amps, so only 200 drops but was testing on Calypso this time around. I have my LBML set to normal range and basically am dropping when i reach the edge of the previous drop, so I would say thats somewhere close to 50% overlap. Initially, I was seeing around 33% hitrate which increased to about 50% and then started falling. It continued to fall until it reached 20% and at that point I got a HOF of 328p. I took a break to get something to eat at this point, but calculated my return and it was 228% tt at that point. I came back a couple hours later and did the remaining 125 drops or so, the hit rate was low at first but eventually rounded out to over 30% and the run ended in 80% tt, which still put me at profit for the run.

One thing I did notice over the course of these 200 drops was that any claim that was not in an overlap area was around 500 meters deep. Claims in overlapped areas were 600-1000m deep. So from this run, I can confirm that the overlapped claims were mostly all deeper than the non-overlap claims, which brings up an interesting point that maybe the finder didn't hit the depth the first time around, and that is why we are seeing a claim on the overlap? I was discussing the run with a soc mate when he mentioned the depth and I started tracking and both of us came to that conclusion, but your results may vary.
 
did another 100 drop run but this time ore only as i were using a lvl 5 amp.

the first third started with close to 50% hit rate and then i got like 2 claims on the next 30 drops. hit rate ended with 29,5% and 100 ped tt loss, despite being 20 ped up after the first third. it might be that carpet bombing negatively affects the hitrate after some rows / time. when going straight lines / zigzag and no carpet bombing it seems the hitrate is more stable.
 
Zeus. 1 D-Class.

 
50 ped run, 105, 102amp.

+- 45 ped tt + 106ped global....

It's becoming extremely easy to see when the wave is about to hit as there is a literal windup in the form of increased nrfs before it hits, when you see the nrf's, you have to adjust your movement to compensate.

In terms of the Vodel sunflower model, the amount of florets simply changes which changes the position the spiral's middle. That's how I found the 106 pedder.

This is a skill based game.
 
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I watched part of the stream, Rocket you have as much grace and elegance as a bull in a china shop. You are brute-forcing your way through mining.

It's just my personal opinion as to your mining style, you are not really thinking about what you are doing or when you are doing it ingame. LMBL should help you though pick up perceived patterns.

Most miners and yourself included have absolutely no imagination. Close your eyes and try to visualize an optimally laid out mining field stretching out round you in a circle. It's almost like a mini big-bang from your location when you activate your finder, and a mini-big crunch when you put it away. The amount of locations that you can mine in this field / array is the same as the number of probes you have.

The trick is to imagine the field and place your avatar right in the middle of the field, then drop the probe and collapse it....
 
R4tt3xx said:
I watched part of the stream, Rocket you have as much grace and elegance as a bull in a china shop. You are brute-forcing your way through mining.

It's just my personal opinion as to your mining style, you are not really thinking about what you are doing or when you are doing it ingame. LMBL should help you though pick up perceived patterns.

Most miners and yourself included have absolutely no imagination. Close your eyes and try to visualize an optimally laid out mining field stretching out round you in a circle. It's almost like a mini big-bang from your location when you activate your finder, and a mini-big crunch when you put it away. The amount of locations that you can mine in this field / array is the same as the number of probes you have.

The trick is to imagine the field and place your avatar right in the middle of the field, then drop the probe and collapse it....
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just no.

ive told you many times... run in any shape you like and your claims will look like that pattern. just run in a line that looks like jesus and your claims will form the shape of jesus. doesnt help anything though. just go and bomb the same area with 100 double drops as carpet bomb and do it 10 times over. you will see that all claim shapes are 100% bullshit

i think you really dont think about what you say. once you say the resources are not in the ground premade but are processed when pressing the finder and then you say there are resources in the ground forming shapes bla bla. those 2 things contradict each other... when they are processed when you press the finder than THERE ARE NO SHAPES. and why would there? that doesnt make any sense at all. you jsut have a certain find chance depending on a few variables. but location to form shapes is certainly none of em.
 
Me Really Never said:
all claim shapes are 100% bullshit
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Yeah pretty much this... if anything what my stream showed is that claims are generated almost on binary, 1=yes and 0=no regardless of where you're standing and how much overlapping you have going on... the only exception is bombing repeatedly without moving as moving = "field" reset or whatever

Any theory that suggests the existed of nodes/resources that are predetermined is just flat out false. Given the test, hit rate should have suffered to such a degree that I would have started crying. That did not happen... Instead what we saw is the system generating claims wherever it could in order to give me X tt return...

multis are the missing bit, but I've voiced my opinion on how those are calculated already... if you want multis you need more looting events per hour, which conveniently reduces variance as well..

I certainly was much more tactical in my mining prior to this revelation... not necessarily that it's new information, but it was certainly new to me... now I just focus on bankroll, markup, and increasing cycle speed as much as possible.
 
R4tt3xx said:
Most miners and yourself included have absolutely no imagination. Close your eyes and try to visualize an optimally laid out mining field stretching out round you in a circle. It's almost like a mini big-bang from your location when you activate your finder, and a mini-big crunch when you put it away. The amount of locations that you can mine in this field / array is the same as the number of probes you have.

The trick is to imagine the field and place your avatar right in the middle of the field, then drop the probe and collapse it....
Click to expand...

Now we're even moving from esoteric numerology to psychic functioning... but there is something serious to it. Was going to try to explain, but it's way too far out for this forum and needs introduction. Allow me to reply somewhere else where the topic was more properly addressed? Link to follow when done.

Edit: http://www.entropiaplanets.com/threads/the-nature-of-consciousness.21609/#post-129171 (#11)
 
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I need to refine my idea again, absolutely crappy run .....
 
San said:
Now we're even moving from esoteric numerology to psychic functioning... but there is something serious to it. Was going to try to explain, but it's way too far out for this forum and needs introduction. Allow me to reply somewhere else where the topic was more properly addressed? Link to follow when done.

Edit: http://www.entropiaplanets.com/threads/the-nature-of-consciousness.21609/#post-129171 (#11)
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I have an idea in my head, I gain the knowledge to bring that idea to life and to test the idea.... Then someone else starts to see what I have already seen....



Fine I will just keep my mouth shut ...

I am dissapointed in you San for linking this thread to another website, what is said on these forums gets resolved here, not anywhere else !!!

Good day to you sir...
 
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R4tt3xx said:
I am dissapointed in you San for linking this thread to another website, what is said on these forums gets resolved here, not anywhere else !!!

Good day to you sir...
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Pardon me, but this must be a misunderstanding. I had no intention to dismiss, denigrate or hurt anyone. I believed you might find the ideas interesting, it just felt weird to slap this heavy subject here, as it must seem literally out of nowhere and non-sequitur to the uninitiated. I spent years even just coming to terms with it, as it's so much against the established belief system. Still grappling to accept it works, but I tried and it does. If you can control your mind for just long enough, which is the hard part. The thread there was already started a while ago in a context of other old-time Entropians presenting their musings and hobbies, and contains a selection of introductory material without which none of it would be understandable.
 
Saw this whole post and thought I would give it a shot to see how much damage running around with auto-use would do in mining. Using eMine FS (maxed) only dropping ores....500 drops done today, no multi's/globals (wasn't really expecting any since was not using an amp). Every hit I got, i drilled it up before continuing, no double or triple dropping but many overlapped.

23.47% hit rate.....don't care how you want to spin that, but I would not recommend it.
I don't believe in the pattern's, spirals, shapes, or whatever other theory is out there on these forums, but there has to be some correlation between when your next drop is compared to your last drop....even if its run around like a crazy person but make sure you have moved 25m from your last drop point as an example.

Either that or i am paying back the random HOF i got the other day when i was trying to find some Cobalt to make more guns.
 
Darth Revan said:
Saw this whole post and thought I would give it a shot to see how much damage running around with auto-use would do in mining. Using eMine FS (maxed) only dropping ores....500 drops done today, no multi's/globals (wasn't really expecting any since was not using an amp). Every hit I got, i drilled it up before continuing, no double or triple dropping but many overlapped.

23.47% hit rate.....don't care how you want to spin that, but I would not recommend it.
I don't believe in the pattern's, spirals, shapes, or whatever other theory is out there on these forums, but there has to be some correlation between when your next drop is compared to your last drop....even if its run around like a crazy person but make sure you have moved 25m from your last drop point as an example.

Either that or i am paying back the random HOF i got the other day when i was trying to find some Cobalt to make more guns.
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as i pointed out in one of my posts above: if you use lbml map and set the finder range to your actual finder range then you can drop as soon as your location (the middle of the grey circle thats wandering with you) is outside the circle of the last drop. at 55m range it would mean that you can drop for example at 56m again and get the normal hitrate.
ive done this now for roughly 1.5k double drops and my hitrate on nearly every single run (one run being 2 level 5 amps so 100 double drops) is 31% (+-2%). i always drop when i get right outside the last circle so theres still a huge overlap but the hitrate is increadibly stable. i managed to get 2 small globals and a 500 ped hof and a 750 ped hof on that. dont know if thats much or normal or too low but its okay to get around with the MU
 
It was always been my gut feeling that overlapping didn't really matter that much when I first fooled around with mining around PA in 2007, thanks for showing that Rocket192.

In loot 2.0 we saw MA making some changes to specifically encourage/reward knowledge/understanding of the game by giving 'efficient' hunting better loot.

I wonder if MA will try to do something similar in the future with a Mining 2.0 VU and make it so that overlapping will yield significantly lower find rates or lesser finds...
 
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Me Really Never said:
as i pointed out in one of my posts above: if you use lbml map and set the finder range to your actual finder range then you can drop as soon as your location (the middle of the grey circle thats wandering with you) is outside the circle of the last drop. at 55m range it would mean that you can drop for example at 56m again and get the normal hitrate.
ive done this now for roughly 1.5k double drops and my hitrate on nearly every single run (one run being 2 level 5 amps so 100 double drops) is 31% (+-2%). i always drop when i get right outside the last circle so theres still a huge overlap but the hitrate is increadibly stable. i managed to get 2 small globals and a 500 ped hof and a 750 ped hof on that. dont know if thats much or normal or too low but its okay to get around with the MU
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Hit rate seems to suffer if your second drop is within the search radius of the first. So as a general rule you can drop every 25-30m assuming NRFs. At least that's what my testing and lbml maps showed me.
 
Rocket192 said:
Hit rate seems to suffer if your second drop is within the search radius of the first. So as a general rule you can drop every 25-30m assuming NRFs. At least that's what my testing and lbml maps showed me.
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right outside the first drop at 55m would be anything bigger than 55m as the range is the radius and not the diameter, isnt it? not in game right now so i cant test it :-/
 
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Me Really Never said:
right outside the first drop at 55m would be anything bigger than 55m as the range is the radius and not the diameter, isnt it? not in game right now so i cant test it :-/
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yeah my bad i misspoke... outside of the radius of the first drop.. so 25m on each side... move 26m in one direction away so that the center of your position is 1-3m outside of the search radius of the last drop... basically you're always dropping a probe outside of the previous drop zone, but you're still overlapping. if i had a lbml picture i'd put it up. a general rule is to drop 5 second after NRF running in a straight line with no speed boost.

now go enjoy doubling your cycle speed at no penalty!
 
You're both describing same timing guys :laugh:
 
Mods close thread please.

Challenge is abandoned due to boxes.
 
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