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UK Gambling Commission statement reguarding Loot crates/Keys

MA can easy make boxes not gambling by adding box opening skill.
But in my 5 or so years playing I didn't have any gambling moment:
Sweat, depo, buy gun, ammo armor, hunt few days, depo, buy sleipnir fly go to Arkadia, mine, sell, depo buy pet, feed, dance, few instances, depo, fly back, buy shop, sell for 1 PED profit, hunt, fly to Rocktropia, kill few cops and zombies, listen to music..... and so on. I never felt like I was gambling.
 
AxeMurderer said:
MA can easy make boxes not gambling by adding box opening skill.
.
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As mentioned before, boxes are not gambling.
You buy the box/key for 5$ and get 5$ worth of stuff. You can't really lose.
How is that gambling?
 
sirchadwick said:
Gotta love the U.K. and its ignorant **** laws. Let people live their own lives and stay the f out of peoples business.
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dunno why your so agressive, the UK doesn't ban gambling like certain countries. "if" this is deemed gambling then all that it would lead to is MA obtaining a licence and then the system used would have to be checked by an external body to make sure its fair or that MA supply your chance of winning and that it can't be exploited (ie waves). An age limit added and protections for problem gamblers, pretty much good things.

or UK would lose access to strongboxes.
This doesn't make your life any harder but it can make it better
 
sirchadwick said:
Gotta love the U.K. and its ignorant fucking laws. Let people live their own lives and stay the fuck out of peoples business.
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Yeah, why can't it be like America.... :rolleyes::laugh:

You able to go down to the betting shop in baton Rouge? Oh, they don't exist because they're illegal? Strange, they're not in the oppressive UK.

You fucking moron.
 
wizz said:
As mentioned before, boxes are not gambling.
You buy the box/key for 5$ and get 5$ worth of stuff. You can't really lose.
How is that gambling?
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Easy:

Loot boxes have risk -> UA that you have to grind into the system, at a small percent tt loss. But then it is liquid again and can be cashed out.

Loot boxes have reward -> MU on rings, amps, etc that can be sold for profit and then cashed out.

So you do pay a small amount of cash to MA for a chance of reward in the shape of a high MU item that can be sold for profit.

Unless the boxes only looted UA or account-bound loot, I see it as 100% the definition under the OP's posted statement.

Perhaps, tell me how that is NOT gambling is the better question :)
 
Jhereg said:
Easy:

Loot boxes have risk -> UA that you have to grind into the system, at a small percent tt loss. But then it is liquid again and can be cashed out.

Loot boxes have reward -> MU on rings, amps, etc that can be sold for profit and then cashed out.

So you do pay a small amount of cash to MA for a chance of reward in the shape of a high MU item that can be sold for profit.

Unless the boxes only looted UA or account-bound loot, I see it as 100% the definition under the OP's posted statement.

Perhaps, tell me how that is NOT gambling is the better question :)[/QUOT

You can not calculate MU in to it .. because MU it's only between the seller and the buyer of the item.
Or do you mean that if you buy a box and get a ring, 1.. you sell it for TT + 100 Ped then is it gambling or 2.. you sell it for TT+0 then it's not gambling ??
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wizz said:
As mentioned before, boxes are not gambling.
You buy the box/key for 5$ and get 5$ worth of stuff. You can't really lose.
How is that gambling?
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Looking in the wrong place. The risk has substantially elevated since EP introduction. We are cursed and lucky this game is small and off the radar screen. Depo $10xxxk, buy 'house tokens' (nanocubes), go to craft machine and run it for XX time, get 'house other tokens' (ep, residue), sell 'other tokens' to tt, withdraw...Now tell me how this is not online casino with all the licensing and what not is required to run most probably in Sweden as well. "Game of skill" was the argument in the past...not sure what kind of skill are required to follow the process above.

Boxes can be argued about...but EP is very straight forward. Even ppl in game say it's there to circumvent US online casino rules...
 
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Flash said:
Perhaps, tell me how that is NOT gambling is the better question :)[/QUOT

You can not calculate MU in to it .. because MU it's only between the seller and the buyer of the item.
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Not an expert, but pretty sure the legal system cares about what happens in reality and not what theoretically happens. In reality, people looted rings worth thousands of USD and cashed it out.

Certainly the value of digital bits and how to treat them legally is debated many times over. But to say that my item has no 'real' value except its tt value is silly.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliver...e-legal-status-of-virtual-goods/#c8c9782108a2

Tell that to the gold sellers in other games, where the gold isn't backed with real currency.
 
So will this make bitcoin mining and trading illegal potentially as mining for coins is essentially a game of chance.
 
mastermesh said:
So will this make bitcoin mining and trading illegal potentially as mining for coins is essentially a game of chance.
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The probability is well known and published.

You technically aren't paying in to get bitcoins out (You could argue you have to invest in gear and electricity, ,but you aren't paying some entity for the opportunity to mine).

In some sense, this is more akin to actual mining. The mine is free to access, but you put in your time blood sweat and tears to get to the gems.

The reason why this stuff should get regulated is that it protects the players. The players should get to know the odds of looting an item for example, so they know what they are buying.

It also helps in spotting things like gambling addiction etc.
 
Players are the ones providing the gamble now.

On webshop with regular boxes its even a gamble since you get a set amount of TT back.
Would be the same with the event ones, but that was before players added markup to boxes...making these a pure gambling mechanism.
When people knowingly pay more than the cost of the expected return.....its a problem, but one MA can wash their hands of, since they offer the 100% return regular box option on the shop still.

As far as values of 100%+ box runs like rare rings, well again, the players created that markup, not MA.

I'm not sure they have too much to worry about when they can point fingers at us.

But I would love to see some oversight over MA in all honesty, if this helped get toward that...id be OK with it.
 

More from Jim.
 
this, from the same government that parks surveillance vehicles outside peoples houses that detect if they are watching the BBC and not paying the tax for it and charge you for putting too much garbage in the bin and tax you for extra rooms in your house and ticket you for driving outside the yellow lines. well now we should put cameras on the computer so they can tell if we are old enough to gamble?
 
Aloisius said:
this, from the same government that parks surveillance vehicles outside peoples houses that detect if they are watching the BBC and not paying the tax for it and charge you for putting too much garbage in the bin and tax you for extra rooms in your house and ticket you for driving outside the yellow lines. well now we should put cameras on the computer so they can tell if we are old enough to gamble?
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made me think, ive not seen a tv detector van for about 20 years, even tho they didn't actually detect anything. now they just ask if you have a tv and may make a random visit to try to catch you out.

Others tho, they dont charge for overfilling bin, just refuse to take it.
Tax on rooms is to social housing to prevent people who got a 4 bedroom house and all kids moved out, so you end up with a 80y/o living there alone whilst a needy family live in a bedsit, its badly ran but the principal is ok.

I dont know what yellow lines you mean, only yellow lines we have are to stop people parking, and ofc you get fined for parking on those

the age protection is usually done via credit card check, or picture of photo id/passport. altho i sense there will be an online id created to prevent fraud
 
You pay $1 you get $1 TT worth of stuff back.
Yes, some of it may be untradable some not, this won't change the basic principle - $1 in $1 out.
Yes, someone might decide he will give you heap of money for something. This is a personal decision, nobody's forcing him to pay extra. Trade between individuals doesn't make the system any different, it's still $1 in $1 out. Some people are paying crazy money for 5 year old concert tickets... does it make concert tickets gambling?

Can't see any problems for MA from those regulations. So far.
For those people who keep scheming and writing reports thou, you will be sorry when you finally succeed and the game is gone. You believe you're doing the right thing no doubt and you have every right to do so ... but you will still regret it when it's all over. Just saying.
 
Odds should be ALWAYS published even if the law does not force you to do it.

Its just a sign of transparency that every company should have.

Law does not matter here.
 
Its simple.

They were looking at strong boxes. Same money in, as out. Not gambling.

What you do with the items/UA AFTERWARDS is irrelevant, that would be EU classed as gambling, WHICH THEY ARE NOT LOOKING AT (from the description provided above).

Strong boxes (themselves) are not gambling.


Rgds

Ace
 
I do not think this will affect MindArk too much. It is made clear that when you purchase a strongbox you are getting 10 TT in value every time. No matter what is in the box it will have 10 TT. The same $1:10 conversion as withdrawing and depositing. The only difference is in what form that 10 TT comes in. And it is the players that make some more or less valuable, not MindArk. We decide what is worth more. It is not like other games where you can get next to nothing or a whole lot of something. The return is static, according to how they value in game items.
 
Aloisius said:
this, from the same government that parks surveillance vehicles outside peoples houses that detect if they are watching the BBC and not paying the tax for it and charge you for putting too much garbage in the bin and tax you for extra rooms in your house and ticket you for driving outside the yellow lines. well now we should put cameras on the computer so they can tell if we are old enough to gamble?
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I'm gonna go ahead and assume you don't live here :girl:

Enjoy your freedom (and mass shootings and racist hate crimes).
 
That's why the current Halloween strongboxes have for MU right? This whole argument that somehow the boxes are just worth 10 ped in TT and not the MU inside is really ridiculous, and you can just look at the value of the looted Halloween strongboxes as evidence of this.

I'm glad they made the Halloween strongboxes looted instead of purchased though, good move on MA's part. Keeps people from just buying a few 10k USD worth then selling off the good MU loot.

But how is trying to loot amplifiers and the unique dagger from the strongboxes NOT gambling? Since the items are tradeable.

And those that say we shouldn't talk about this simply because MA might get in trouble, I'm not one who wants MA to be in trouble. But I do want to have an honest conversation about what potential issues EU/MA could face in terms of gambling regulations in different countries.
 
Besides it's not what MA do that could cause the problem it's what other games publishers do and MA gets dragged into it. The laws aren't there to punish individuals, they are there to stop unscrupulous companies taking the piss.

I'd be interested to know if MA published the odds of the strongboxes for the Chinese players though :laugh:
 
Aio said:
Yeah, why can't it be like America.... :rolleyes::laugh:

You able to go down to the betting shop in baton Rouge? Oh, they don't exist because they're illegal? Strange, they're not in the oppressive UK.

You fucking moron.
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Yeah they have casinos and video poker macbines for that as well as off track betting. This is a computer game that the public assigns value to in game items. Fucking moron. Dont make comments to someone online unless you can say it to them in person chicken shit little prick
 
One dev studio has decided to drop their loot box system and micro transaction partly as a result of the recent activity of other Studios in their AAA titles.

http://www.pcgamer.com/dauntless-is-getting-rid-of-loot-boxes/

"I don't want to build a game that folks expect and are okay with," Houston added. "I want to build a game where folks get behind the choices that we make and they believe what we do and we do it for the right reasons. Everything I do, I want to do it with the player in mind and I want the player to feel like we're doing it for them to deliver a quality experience that they will then reward us with their money. I do not want to build a company that is known for being able to extract capital, or some other bullshit, out of [players]."
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The article they reference is this one

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/09/loot-boxes-have-reached-a-new-low-with-forza-7s-pay-to-earn-option/
 
If, and its a big IF

Strongboxes have to go, Entropia existed before them and I can guarantee it would exist after them. Rings would go up a lot in price that''s for sure.



If the UK Gambling Commission has less teeth than the Ofgem Energy Regulator (which I suspect they have) , then they can easily take no notice. Just as British Gas have done for the past 20 years. ;)
 
sirchadwick said:
Yeah they have casinos and video poker macbines for that as well as off track betting. This is a computer game that the public assigns value to in game items. Fucking moron. Dont make comments to someone online unless you can say it to them in person chicken shit little prick
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Aha, murrica wants to use his fightin'. Dickhead.

No-one is opening thousands of boxes because they get the same TT out. They're hoping (e.g. gambling) on looting something nicer. They pay for the privilege to gamble via MA's UA cycle fee (e.g. MA's rake) along with the withdrawal fee, and if they win, it comes straight out of another player's pocket. It's win-win for MA, and it is also obvious blatant gambling.

Now off you pop to go shoot guns at hurricanes :dunce:
 
I did not read all the posts but quite a few and they all seem to say about the same thing. Anyway my comment is:

If the any government gets involved to regulate the game what may happen is MA could simply stop the play in that country as was done in the USA for online poker. I would really hate to see that happen. Also it could be changed to a monthly subscription game like others which I think would really hurt the game. I doubt that I would play very much at all, if any.
 
sidxx said:
This might be why MA put the Halloween boxes into the loot and the regular boxes might follow suit, if you loot the box it's not purchased per se. The keys are what contain the monetary value and you get 100% of your purchase so not really gambling...sort of...
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The current Halloween boxes in loot is 100% a gambling violation. Mainly because players are overpaying (MU) on boxes in order to gamble on loot with (MU) The chances of profiting are nil and making it a lottery at best and having to have a winning ticket.

If they want to have boxes in loot they would need to remove purchasing keys on the webshop to make lootable boxes not gambling.

5 boxes and 5 keys = 5 bucks - This is considered a reasonable way to deposit because your 5 bucks is returned in items.

5 Halloween keys = 5 bucks which means boxes are worth ZERO. Paying anything more than ZERO for a box means you are knowingly overpaying for the chance at an MU item. IE - Gambling.

So when you see Boxes selling for 3 ped and even a ridiculous 10 ped per box that is 100% gambling as that is far beyond the value of a box (Which is Zero) and people who have gambling addictions are knowingly gambling at the chances of winning an item with high MU. If you always get less in return than what is invested unless you win. That is the very act of what gambling is.


There is no other way to slice this. It is gambling. So if MA wants to keep boxes around they need to not have them in loot while dangling a key for the same price in the web shop. It is gambling anywhere you go with what the Halloween event was.

With that said I will buy 100 Halloween boxes for 1 PED total. To me then its not in fact much of a gamble at that point.
 
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I am surprised you got such a detailed response, in that at least not all of it seemed to be copy paste!

Mega said:
If, and its a big IF

Strongboxes have to go, Entropia existed before them and I can guarantee it would exist after them. Rings would go up a lot in price that''s for sure.



If the UK Gambling Commission has less teeth than the Ofgem Energy Regulator (which I suspect they have) , then they can easily take no notice. Just as British Gas have done for the past 20 years. ;)
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This might be why right enough, if they are all bark and no bite.
 
The Abomb said:
The current Halloween boxes in loot is 100% a gambling violation. Mainly because players are overpaying (MU) on boxes in order to gamble on loot with (MU) The chances of profiting are nil and making it a lottery at best and having to have a winning ticket.

If they want to have boxes in loot they would need to remove purchasing keys on the webshop to make lootable boxes not gambling.

5 boxes and 5 keys = 5 bucks - This is considered a reasonable way to deposit because your 5 bucks is returned in items.

5 Halloween keys = 5 bucks which means boxes are worth ZERO. Paying anything more than ZERO for a box means you are knowingly overpaying for the chance at an MU item. IE - Gambling.

So when you see Boxes selling for 3 ped and even a ridiculous 10 ped per box that is 100% gambling as that is far beyond the value of a box (Which is Zero) and people who have gambling addictions are knowingly gambling at the chances of winning an item with high MU. If you always get less in return than what is invested unless you win. That is the very act of what gambling is.


There is no other way to slice this. It is gambling. So if MA wants to keep boxes around they need to not have them in loot while dangling a key for the same price in the web shop. It is gambling anywhere you go with what the Halloween event was.

With that said I will buy 100 Halloween boxes for 1 PED total. To me then its not in fact much of a gamble at that point.
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So don't pay for them.
Go sweat no gambling there.
Problem solved.
 
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