UK Gambling Commission statement reguarding Loot crates/Keys

The Jetman

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Over the last few months there has been a movement to get the government to follow china's path and make lootcrate or strongboxes in this case publish the odds.

original petition

"
Many video game companies in recent years have introduced mechanics which are essentially gambling of which are targeted at children and vulnerable adults. While not currently considers gambling by law they do copy many traits to make them as addictive and can lead to real money being lost/earned.

Gambling in video games mostly involves 'loot boxes' where players use virtual currency (often bought with real money) to earn in game items often worth less than what they paid (sometimes more) hence its gambling.
Currently only china has introduced new laws to force companies to display the odds of winning which had been standard in the uk gambling industry for years"

Today they replied

"
The Gambling Commission has strong powers to regulate gambling and is monitoring convergence between gambling and video games closely. The government is committed to protecting children from harm.

Protecting children and the vulnerable from being harmed or exploited by gambling is a core objective of the regulation of gambling in Great Britain, and a priority for the government. The Gambling Commission, as the regulator for gambling in Great Britain, has powers to regulate online gambling, and is committed to using its powers and expertise to contribute to creating a safer internet.

The Gambling Commission released a position paper in March 2017 detailing existing protections in relation to virtual currencies, eSports and social casino gaming. The paper can be found on the Gambling Commission’s website at the following address:

http://www.GamblingCommission.gov.uk/PDF/Virtual-currencies-eSports-and-social-casino-gaming.pdf

Where gambling facilities are offered to British consumers using in-game items that can be converted into cash or traded for items of real-world value, then such activities must be licensed by the Gambling Commission and adhere to strict requirements for the protection of children and the vulnerable, which include measures to prevent underage gambling. It is an offence to invite a child to gamble, and where there is a failure to prevent underage gambling, the Commission will take regulatory and/or criminal action.

Where the facility exists for players of video games to purchase a key to unlock a bundle containing an unknown quantity and value of in-game items as a prize, and where there are readily accessible opportunities to cash in or exchange those awarded in-game items for money or money’s worth, then these elements of the game are likely to be considered licensable gambling activities. In contrast, where prizes are restricted for use solely within the game, such in-game features would not be licensable gambling. The Gambling Commission is committed to working with the video game industry to prevent gambling-related harm related to their platforms.


Consumers are also protected by the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. This includes a requirement on businesses not to subject anyone to misleading or aggressive marketing practices, or, for example, direct exhortation to buy products, such as games content, including in-game purchases such as loot boxes. The government is committed to ensuring that consumers are properly protected and that children’s vulnerability and inexperience is not exploited by aggressive commercial practices.

The Video Standards Council (VSC) Rating Board is the designated body for classifying video games, and applies the Europe-wide PEGI ratings to video games supplied in the UK. The PEGI criteria currently make provision for games depicting simulations of traditional gambling, and such games would generally attract a minimum PEGI rating of 12. The VSC Rating Board is discussing these issues with the PEGI Council and its Experts Group to determine whether any changes to the PEGI criteria need to be made.

The Gambling Commission monitors the participation of children in gambling through a range of data sources including complaints, academic research and the annual Young People and Gambling Survey, which in 2017 included specific questions in relation to eSports and video gaming. The results of the survey are due to be published soon. The Gambling Commission has also asked the Responsible Gambling Strategy Board to examine the wider relationship between children and gambling.

On 11 October the government published the Internet Safety Strategy, setting out plans to make the UK the safest place in the world to be online. The Strategy outlines how the government will work with online platforms, game publishers and game developers, and with agencies such as the VSC Rating Board, to continue to improve online safety in games. This includes promoting further awareness and understanding of PEGI age ratings, parental controls and advice on safe gaming.

The government recognises the risks that come from increasing convergence between gambling and video games. The Gambling Commission is keeping this matter under review and will continue to monitor developments in the market.

Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport"

i've bolded the part that might actually affect EU and should make MA take note, as this statement renders strongboxes as gambling

what do you think, should MA alter the system to avoid the loophole closing? or accept its gambling/lottery and make sure the boxes are fairly regulated
 
I'd be more surprised to see how this impacts CS:GO skins and shit like that in other games..

i doubt EU was on their radar when making this statement, but it does make sense... and MA would then have to publish the odds for looting a ring or whatever right? when there's finite quantities and waves that's sort of impossible to do.

My guess is nothing will happen.
 
I'd be more surprised to see how this impacts CS:GO skins and shit like that in other games..

i doubt EU was on their radar when making this statement, but it does make sense... and MA would then have to publish the odds for looting a ring or whatever right? when there's finite quantities and waves that's sort of impossible to do.

My guess is nothing will happen.

i did think of steam and its market for crates, whilst i do think its mainly aimed at crafty mobile games that aim to lure kids in.
 
Where the facility exists for players of video games to purchase a key to unlock a bundle containing an unknown quantity and value of in-game items as a prize

We may not know the chances of looting a ring, but we do know in advance that the tt value is equal to the purchase and for it to qualify you must not know the quantity and value of items, of which in this case, we know the value, just not the quantity.


Since all strongboxes contain 10 ped tt value items, and the cost of the strongboxes is $1 which makes them equal in monetary value, the way I read it, they would get a pass because you can deposit $1 for 10 ped, or you can buy a $1 box and get 10 ped in value out of it, there is no gamble, you will absolutely get 10 ped for $1.

I have a feeling that player given mu has zero effect on the gambling status of this game, and that is how they are doing it legally.
 
i dunno if british laws have a tooth on it since the Mindark-company is not in england , i thought only local laws are there going...

But if they really have to do this..also two solutions...open the charts OR ONLY ALLOW AGE18+ (would also solve it)

,bec the thingie is addressed for childs...(i leave the vulnerable adults aside on this)
 
I'd be more surprised to see how this impacts CS:GO skins and shit like that in other games..

i doubt EU was on their radar when making this statement, but it does make sense... and MA would then have to publish the odds for looting a ring or whatever right? when there's finite quantities and waves that's sort of impossible to do.

My guess is nothing will happen.

CSGO etc get around this by not actually allowing users to sell their skins for actual cash - rather, just exchange them for store credit. You have to go outside the system to sell them directly for cash.

Strongboxes here are completely different - the loot contained within has real-world value (mechanism provided by MA).

i dunno if british laws have a tooth on it since the Mindark-company is not in england , i thought only local laws are there going...

But if they really have to do this..also two solutions...open the charts OR ONLY ALLOW AGE18+ (would also solve it)

,bec the thingie is addressed for childs...(i leave the vulnerable adults aside on this)

Not how the law works here in the UK. Even if it is 18+, you would still be regulated by UK gambling law if you wanted to provide the service.

MA would have two options - comply (at minimum provide % odds, probably go further in providing % odds throughout Entropia) or secondly, block UK accounts (or restrict them to zero-deposit accounts).

Fun times!
 
comply (at minimum provide % odds

Would that really be a big thing for us if they published the %, even if its 0.0012% or something like that to loot a unique ring, etc, you still cant guarantee that you will loot one....won't make much difference as to how it is now knowing that only 1 or 2 drop.
 
Would that really be a big thing for us if they published the %, even if its 0.0012% or something like that to loot a unique ring, etc, you still cant guarantee that you will loot one....won't make much difference as to how it is now knowing that only 1 or 2 drop.

It may well be a big thing when you see the odds being 0.00000000000000000001%.

Or, conversely, when you see the odds of just getting UA at 95% or something.

The UK law isn't to stop gambling - gambling is perfectly legal here on everything (casinos, betting, poker, whatever). It's to make sure it's fair - and to stop unscrupulous practices such as misleading advertising.
 
So no mindark offices will be located in u.k. ... check.
 
So no mindark offices will be located in u.k. ... check.

office location is not relevant for UK users, to sell to UK players they need to abide by UKs laws. it could see strongboxes been blocked to UK players tho
 
office location is not relevant for UK users, to sell to UK players they need to abide by UKs laws. it could see strongboxes been blocked to UK players tho

dude hurry up sell me the boxes until the government finds about you and might put you in jail.
 
The ability to convert to real cash is key here. Looks like the strongboxes will fall right within their realm of what they are planning to regulate.
 
This might be why MA put the Halloween boxes into the loot and the regular boxes might follow suit, if you loot the box it's not purchased per se. The keys are what contain the monetary value and you get 100% of your purchase so not really gambling...sort of...
 
Pretty sure Mindark Legal department has taken note, if theyre up to speed with matters. :wise:
 
Pretty sure Mindark Legal department has taken note, if theyre up to speed with matters. :wise:

Yeah, Sven the litigation specialist, in between his duties on reception and office manager has had a chat to Helga in game design / accounts / network management and they're both all over it.
 


We may not know the chances of looting a ring, but we do know in advance that the tt value is equal to the purchase and for it to qualify you must not know the quantity and value of items, of which in this case, we know the value, just not the quantity.


Since all strongboxes contain 10 ped tt value items, and the cost of the strongboxes is $1 which makes them equal in monetary value, the way I read it, they would get a pass because you can deposit $1 for 10 ped, or you can buy a $1 box and get 10 ped in value out of it, there is no gamble, you will absolutely get 10 ped for $1.

I have a feeling that player given mu has zero effect on the gambling status of this game, and that is how they are doing it legally.

This. :wise:
 
However it's not true, as Universal Ammo is valueless.

Universal Ammo is not valueless, it clearly has a TT value however it is not able to be sold or withdrawn, in fact, it is purely for use within the game and they award equal value uni ammo for money spent. So, in that case, the below applies.. and I conclude, once again that MA is doing this the legal way. You have to completely disregard "player markup" because it has nothing to do with MA when it comes to a law like this, the law only recognizes the system set or TT value of items.

In contrast, where prizes are restricted for use solely within the game, such in-game features would not be licensable gambling.
 
Universal Ammo is not valueless, it clearly has a TT value however it is not able to be sold or withdrawn, in fact, it is purely for use within the game and they award equal value uni ammo for money spent. So, in that case, the below applies.. and I conclude, once again that MA is doing this the legal way. You have to completely disregard "player markup" because it has nothing to do with MA when it comes to a law like this, the law only recognizes the system set or TT value of items.

If it was just UA, I'd agree. If it was just 10 ped rings, I'd agree. But it's both. So you either get $10:$10 or you get $10:$10 worth of tokens which you can subsequently "gamble" further for a long term 90-97% return.

You're actually missing the one thing which may make it not gambling - you can never win one item which is worth more than 10 ped - however, I'd argue that's moot because you can win less.

Sure, if you could tt UA then it wouldn't be gambling at all.

Also, have a think about your quoted part in relation to all other lootbox systems in videogames...
 
I don’t see gamble in here , with a box you actually don’t lose nothing , you pay 1$ and you get 1$ , it’s not a gamble ... if it was that you pay 1 and their return was from 0,1 to 100 $ then you can call gamble.
You think it’s a gamble? Don’t play it.
 
I don’t see gamble in here , with a box you actually don’t lose nothing , you pay 1$ and you get 1$ , it’s not a gamble ... if it was that you pay 1 and their return was from 0,1 to 100 $ then you can call gamble.
You think it’s a gamble? Don’t play it.

Lol. Maybe if they only looted UA and non of the items with MU that can be sold and withdrawn :). Even then, UA can be cycled into shrapnel and then sold again.

Also, pretty sure they won't care that you loot the box and buy the key, it is the same thing.

I suspect MA will operate on a business as normal unless the UK government decides to enforce on EU, since EU is pretty small, the gaming commission there may have bigger fish to fry.
 
Pay $1, get $1 back.

Not gambling.
 
This is gambling

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and this is video game

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This is gambling

web-_OCE6626-e1443515757694-766x375.jpg


and this is video game

3899174-3x2-940x627.jpg
 
"Where the facility exists for players of video games to purchase a key to unlock a bundle containing an unknown quantity and value of in-game items as a prize, and where there are readily accessible opportunities to cash in or exchange those awarded in-game items for money or money’s worth, then these elements of the game are likely to be considered licensable gambling activities. In contrast, where prizes are restricted for use solely within the game, such in-game features would not be licensable gambling. The Gambling Commission is committed to working with the video game industry to prevent gambling-related harm related to their platforms."

Strongboxes loot items that can be sold for MU. So it certainly falls within "where there are readily accessible opportunities to cash in or exchange those awarded in-game items for money or money’s worth."

Sure UA is just worth the same amount as the key, but we don't buy boxes just for the UA do we? lol.
 
EU is 80% gambling veiled as a game, let's be honest with ourselves.

Sure there is markup and stuff blah blah blah.

But MA could run this game without an RNG and give a fixed return to everyone. Why do you think they don't?

Because gambling is fun. But it is still gambling...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzBo6pDJZzM

That video is not 80% of Entropia. Make video of 80% of Entropia and I will agree with you
 
WOW! Jackpot.

http://www.entropiaplanets.com/atta...331968-ped-ath-in-entropia-universe-jpg.6676/

and

WOW ding ding ding ding 777.

http://www.entropiaplanets.com/threads/new-highest-mining-ath.6839/

The system is basically the same for hunting/mining/crafting with different multipliers, basically a slot machine if you look at it in pure TT terms. Crafting explosive projectiles is just the most apparently version of this.

Why do you think people hunt/mine/craft and want globals/hofs/ath? It is the same addictive quality as slot machines that make people keep wanting to push that lever.

If you think it isn't then you don't really know EU...

Oh, and most gambling is regulated, but EU isn't (doesn't have to publish odds) isn't despite its resemblance to gambling...so take that how you will...
 
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The Isle of Man rulling for loot boxes for those interested (taken from http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-10-19-what-the-uk-can-learn-from-the-far-easts-battle-with-loot-boxes

"Our Gambling Supervision Commission (GSC) considers an activity to be licensable if:

There is an element of chance (which there may be in the case of loot boxes because it may be random which items are in the box. Other elements of chance could be re-spawn locations, wind speed and direction etc depending on type of game);
There is a prize in money or money's worth (which there may be in the case of loot boxes, depending on the contents) and;
The activity is performed on Isle of Man infrastructure.
"If these three scenarios are fulfilled then the GSC would consider it to be gambling and a company offering the activity from IOM infrastructure would require a gambling licence. Offering the activity from IOM infrastructure could include registering the players and hosting the game.

"Examples of the element of chance could include respawn locations, wind speed & direction (in eg. Angry Birds) or loot boxes."

The original person who asked the UK gov pointed this out as a possible role out across the UK.

As for simply looking at the ped / $ value in EU's stong boxes to classify it as gambling, if all the contents of the boxes were locked to the person who opened them would this be ok? Or was the point of opening boxes, in some cases thousands, to get the UL items / rings which the players assign values much higher than their face value. Why such a big rush on boxes when MA announce a new series of rings to be found if not to gain either an advantage or to sell for financial gain.
 
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Gotta love the U.K. and its ignorant fucking laws. Let people live their own lives and stay the fuck out of peoples business.
 
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