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MindArk's Upcoming Blockchain Project

Fifth said:
You hit the nail on the head but it seems not in the way you intended it.

Let's have closer look. Instability is a natural property of all currencies, that's why we have to look up exchange rates. The smaller the market/supporting economy the bigger the instability, bigger market results in bigger stability. People seem to think think cryptocurrencies are somehow unstable by their very nature. It shows they never took 5 min to think it over.
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The Swedish Krona is a bit more stabil than the Russian rubel, does that mean the Swedish economy is bigger than the Russian economy? :silly2:
 
krogfan said:
Paying bills with pedz?? :D
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PEDs is not an investment, PEDs is "GAME" currency as every other game has one, only difference is that PED has an fixed exchange rate to $, what is different to other games.

EU is not an investment, nor does it claim to be a currency you can pay bills with!
I deposit in EU to pay for my entertainment and expect every PED deposited as a lost PED (payment for entertainment). I give money to MA for the service (EU) they provide, thats it!

So what the hell has my EU/PED deposits to do with cryptocurrency?
 
billairboy said:
The Swedish Krona is a bit more stabil than the Russian rubel, does that mean the Swedish economy is bigger than the Russian economy? :silly2:
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Yea yea, you know what I mean. Ofc markets are different in details but that's just nitpicking.

There are major heavyweight currencies that are viewed to maintain general long-term stability. These include currencies of large nations and trading blocks, such as:
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(Source)

Anyway, I think the interesting question is, what would happen if Sweden would switch from krona to some specialized Swedish Crypto Currency tomorrow? I think the generation below 30 wouldn't even notice the difference? OK, I shouldn't use Sweden as an example maybe your country is more conservative.
I know in my country you can pay with plastic money everywhere and here younger generation stopped using paper money years ago. Older people certainly would be pissed if the paper money suddenly disappears :laugh: but I think they would learn how to use plastic and life would go on...
Sooner or later that switch will come anyway. If you look at the big picture (the total volume of financial transactions) all the developed countries have switched to electronic money already. Not the blockchain type ofc, but if the banking system remains the same, what's the difference?
 
Fifth said:
Yea yea, you know what I mean. Ofc markets are different in details but that's just nitpicking.

(Source)

Anyway, I think the interesting question is, what would happen if Sweden would switch from krona to some specialized Swedish Crypto Currency tomorrow? I think the generation below 30 wouldn't even notice the difference? OK, I shouldn't use Sweden as an example maybe your country is more conservative.
I know in my country you can pay with plastic money everywhere and here younger generation stopped using paper money years ago. Older people certainly would be pissed if the paper money suddenly disappears :laugh: but I think they would learn how to use plastic and life would go on...
Sooner or later that switch will come anyway. If you look at the big picture (the total volume of financial transactions) all the developed countries have switched to electronic money already. Not the blockchain type ofc, but if the banking system remains the same, what's the difference?
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Plastic money is not new, even older people use it in germany long long time.
Doesn´t matter if it is CC or EC-Cards or something, the money behing the plastic money is still FIAT money, regulated by central banks of the countrys.

There is still the energy problem caused by mined crypto currency, search the net and compare the evergy consumption of bitcoin (~ 750k transactions/day) vs Visa (> 200million transactions/day).
Even if cryptocurrency like bitcoin (or any other) make it possible to pay with a card (similar to Visa) its an insane waste of energy resources to do as much transactions/day as Visa can do using a mined cryptocurrency based on blockchain technologie.

Ok there is cryptocurrency that isn´t mined that way, but this is even less trustworth than the mined ones.
Not to speak of the premined, where the inventors did all the mining as long the energy consumption was fairly low, and take all the mining profits for themselves, while the coin users are just there to pay for them (that really sounds like ponzy sheme, even worse than anything else, as this coins very likely will bust as soon as the inventors grab their money and run).

I am quit sure if no country in the world would like to switch from FIAT money to cryptocurrency, as this would be economical suiccide considering the energy waste, caused by blockchain networks.
 
GoNi said:
I am quit sure if no country in the world would like to switch from FIAT money to cryptocurrency, as this would be economical suiccide considering the energy waste, caused by blockchain networks.
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http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20171019-could-estonia-be-the-first-digital-country

https://medium.com/e-residency-blog...stcoin-and-that-s-only-the-start-310aba7f3790

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/23/estonia-cryptocurrency-called-estcoin.html
Estonia wants to launch its own government-backed cryptocurrency called 'estcoin'
Estonia has proposed to launch its own state-backed cryptocurrency, called "estcoin".
Ethereum founder Vitalik Buterin apparently gave feedback on the digital currency.
It would be launched via the digital coin community's version of crowdfunding - an initial coin offering (ICO).
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you go to bank for a laon for a house your monthly bill will be 1k a month us but now we use crypto if every thing goes well we should lnow tomoro if you loqn goes true the next day we have goo and bad new

you loan accepted but you montly payment now is 2k a month because the change in crypto

crypto cureency wont work you cant lend out of it

its worst than fiat money whit the exange from one currency to another

the only think is good for is to buy and sell

if you want to have loans its not good for you just wait till the goverment get there tax from it or you didnt pay for the money you made
 
GoNi said:
Not to speak of the premined, where the inventors did all the mining as long the energy consumption was fairly low, and take all the mining profits for themselves
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That was lovely. :)

How do mineable and non-mineable crypto currencies work?

Proof of Stake or Proof or Work?

"Proof-of-stake (PoS) is a type of algorithm by which a cryptocurrency blockchain network aims to achieve distributed consensus. Unlike proof-of-work (PoW) based cryptocurrencies (such as bitcoin), where the algorithm rewards participants who solve complicated cryptographical puzzles in order to validate transactions and create new blocks (i.e. mining), in PoS-based cryptocurrencies the creator of the next block is chosen in a deterministic (pseudo-random) way, and the chance that an account is chosen depends on its wealth (i.e. the stake)." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof-of-stake
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mastermesh said:
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20171019-could-estonia-be-the-first-digital-country

https://medium.com/e-residency-blog...stcoin-and-that-s-only-the-start-310aba7f3790

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/23/estonia-cryptocurrency-called-estcoin.html
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Well and this:
https://qz.com/1072740/mario-draghi-of-the-ecb-dashes-estonias-plan-for-an-estcoin-cryptocurrency-backed-by-the-government/

There is some serious problems to do that if a country is member of the euro zone.

Edit:
Beside that, do you know that estonia got hacked in 2009, and nothing worked for 4 days.
Think about if they have only cryptocurrency and this happens again.
Very dangerous.
To have an idea and discuss it, does not mean that this idea will become reality.

Edit2:
South Korea is planning to ban cryptocurrency trading by law. News from yesterday!
Do your own search, you will find the news in your language.
 
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Fifth said:
That was lovely. :)

How do mineable and non-mineable crypto currencies work?
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Yeah that is cute.

PoS vs PoW has nothing to with premined.

Premined means, the creator of the coin already mined the coins befor it goes public.

The P in your link stands for PROOF not for PRE
 
GoNi said:
Well and this:
https://qz.com/1072740/mario-draghi-of-the-ecb-dashes-estonias-plan-for-an-estcoin-cryptocurrency-backed-by-the-government/

There is some serious problems to do that if a country is member of the euro zone.

Edit:
Beside that, do you know that estonia got hacked in 2009, and nothing worked for 4 days.
Think about if they have only cryptocurrency and this happens again.
Very dangerous.
To have an idea and discuss it, does not mean that this idea will become reality.

Edit2:
South Korea is planning to ban cryptocurrency trading by law. News from yesterday!
Do your own search, you will find the news in your language.
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the south korea crypto ban was a hoax and the guy who said it is close to being fired. came on twitter shortly after and in a press release a little after that. guess someone wanted to buy in cheap again. happens all the time

interestingly enough the news only bothered to talk about the ban and not about the correction of that statement. which kinda proves why crypto is needed.
 
if you have faith in your country, your government and your currency, and can't think of any use for censorship resistant payment, then crypto is not for you. you can stay in your fiat wonderland and live your happy life...

if you unluckily weren't born in the so called developed parts of the world, your government is maybe a dictatorship, part of the axis of evil, or very suppressive capital controls limit your financial possibilities, then crypto and especially bitcoin can be awesome tools for freedom and for your personal gain.

independant from where you live on this planet, there's another point that's maybe quite important for the majority - it's job income vs. capital income. mining can help people to earn more and/or work less, and it all starts with your gaming PC (GPU).

so, to get to the point - you are not the ones to decide whats maybe good for someone else, and if you're really intelligent, you listen/read more and talk alot less.
 
that's why i rather like any mineable crypto, and rather dislike any of those tokens like ripple and ICOs.

while mineable coins are "backed" by their community, investments like hardware and ofc power in form of KWh, all those ICOs are nothing but IOUs. yes, in my humble opinion, without any real value. :silly2:
 
theProphet said:
if you have faith in your country, your government and your currency, and can't think of any use for censorship resistant payment, then crypts is not for you. you can stay in your fiat wonderland and live your happy life...

if you unluckily weren't born in the so called developed parts of the world, your government is maybe a dictatorship, part of the axis of evil, or very suppressive capital controls limit your financial possibilities, then crypto and especially bitcoin can be awesome tools for freedom and for your personal gain.

independant from where you live on this planet, there's another point that's maybe quite important for the majority - it's job income vs. capital income. mining can help people to earn more and/or work less, and it all starts with your gaming PC (GPU).

so, to get to the point - you are not the ones to decide whats maybe good for someone else, and if you're really intelligent, you listen/read more and talk alot less.
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So what you are saying, more or less, is most are just in this for RL sweating? You really see no value in it other than the fun of trying to mine as many coins as you can?

But you are right, I should have looked into this earlier. It would have been fun to start mining when all this started out. As old as this is getting and with so many other version of bitcoins coming out one has to wonder how much longer it can last. Plus I guess if any one market takes off that could kill the other market.

I understood the market idea of bitcoins at the beginning but soon the basic idea of what Bitcoins were to replace was killed when the value of 1 coin hit 1 dollar. Now the new idea is not to use the bitcoins as they were attended for but now use them for investment -- since really that is the only thing they are good for now with the value of them so high.

It is all interesting, but again the main drive is RL sweating and the money one could make for 'free'.

The last thought is would you still back bitcoins if a bitcoin's value dropped to 0.01 allowing it once again to compete with the USD as a new way of currency?
 
the last thing i wanna add to think about and for discussion is centralism vs. decentralism

ripple, ICOs and altcoins are good examples, because most are centralized, developed by less than a handful people, maybe even a plain scam. they can be changed (inflation!) or stopped/discontinued anytime, so i think it makes alot of sense to rather use USD/EUR/SKR instead of this ultrarisky gambles (greed anyone?)

decentralized cryptocurrency networks like bitcoin (or even ethereum) can't even be changed as a whole, if some of the participants disagree and decide to fork, or fork anyway, create their new branches and be just another addition or competition in this cryptoworld.

online communities have never been that strong before. basically they can create value out of thin air like a central bank. but hey, if they all agree, where's the problem? it's a true competition of lots of different currencies, not being forced to use EUR/USD/SKR or whatever the first time in history.

someone said bitcoin is, what paypal was meant to become. but our "real" world just doesn't work that way huh?
 
OZtwo said:
It is all interesting, but again the main drive is RL sweating and the money one could make for 'free'.

The last thought is would you still back bitcoins if a bitcoin's value dropped to 0.01 allowing it once again to compete with the USD as a new way of currency?
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for me it's not only about making money for free, otherwise i could also just trade pump & dump stuffs. i create censorship resistant peer-to-peer cash because i actually use it, and started to truly believe in it technically and mathematically.

i guess this answers your 2nd question. if, as example, tone vays always asks 0.1 BTC for 1 hour private chat or to attend one of his seminars, and you create bitcoins out of thin air by paying increased power bill, the fiat money value maybe doesn't even matter. it's KWh per 0.1 BTC. let's talk about cheap power! ;)

:computer:
 
theProphet said:
i guess this answers your 2nd question. if, as example, tone vays always asks 0.1 BTC for 1 hour private chat or to attend one of his seminars, and you create bitcoins out of thin air by paying increased power bill, the fiat money value maybe doesn't even matter. it's KWh per 0.1 BTC. let's talk about cheap power! ;)
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Not really. I guess I need to look into BTC more. I didn't realize you could cut up a bitcoin in smaller denominations. What is a bitcoin penny called?
 
OZtwo said:
Not really. I guess I need to look into BTC more. I didn't realize you could cut up a bitcoin in smaller denominations. What is a bitcoin penny called?
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The smallest denomination of bitcoin is called a Satoshi.

However, its currently very difficult to transfer small denominations of bitcoin to each other due to the transaction fee involved.

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-median_transaction_fee.html
https://bitcoinfees.info/

Each transaction currently costs about 10+ USD (if your willing to wait) to upwards of 30+ USD.

And the only viable way to do it at a reasonable cost is to send/pay to multiple recipients in 1 transaction (batching).

Example:
https://blockchain.info/tx/1b852d350c5faf53927c11ac3dd0f58f39123b8d96ff19ef5881e9fbca26680b

1 input -> 300+ outputs.

Which reduces the cost to roughly 0.20+ usd per recipient.

----------------------

As for centralising vs decentralising...

Atm, it seems pretty "centralised" to me (for bitcoin and other alts).

To serve as a full node, you need quite some bandwidth as well as hdd storage space...and I believe hdd read/write speed?

And as time goes on, the amount of storage required would increase even further because the full nodes keeps all transactions ever recorded on block.

This goes for bitcoin which has a max cap of 1 mb per block per 10 minutes...and even more so for other altcoins with larger max cap per block or more block production rate per minute.

https://bitinfocharts.com/
Example:
Bitcoin - 179.50 GB
Ethereum - 320.09 GB

As for securing the transactions through mining....

Its mostly determined by the amount of hash rates you possess. And currently there's a couple of powerhouses (mining pools) that's constantly spitting out those confirmed blocks.

https://blockchain.info/pools
https://bitcoin.org/en/glossary/51-percent-attack

That's pretty centralised to me...

Disclaimer: I'm a noob to crypto and blockchain. What I know is from what I skimmed through. Am No Expert.
 
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theProphet has some valid points pro cryptocurrency, especially that about living in a dictatorship gouvernment where the FIAT money isn´t save aswell. There the cryptocurrency is an instrument for freedom. Very good point made here.

Even the mining (compared to sweating) is a valid point for countrys with very low average income. So mining generates some additional income that maybe is even more than their RL income.
This is a valid point for the individual doing it.

The question here is at what cost for the world?

Sure its good for the individual, but its still waste of electricity. As long the electricity used for mining comes out of sources that don´t hurt the world (wind, water, solar) I haven´t any issue with that. Sadly the less developed countries produce most their electricity out of coal or oil, which is a main factor if we look at global warming threat.
So while the developed countrys (except US since Thrump) try everything to decrease Co2 output, the increased electric power consumption in lesser developed countrys by running a lot of cryptomining is contraproductive.

At the end this is an balancing problem RL.

The bad thing is that very strong RL companys set up extremly strong cryptomining farms using the best available hardware, that makes it very hard for the normal GPU users to mine efficent.

About the trust:
theProfit has valid point here too, the ICO shit is even worse than the mined crypto.
From mathematical standpoint the mined cryptos are very good. Its fairly save and biggest threat here is the 51% attack, that is close to impossible to achieve. In the bitcoin history there was one time a single company had this 51% option for a day or so. This problem got solved by fork. Nothing bad happend here, but it was a warning signal, that it really could happen.
Another thing is the many hacker attacks on the trading plattforms for cryptocoins. These attacks already caused multi million damage for investors in coins.
The problem here is that everyone with some knowledge can set up such a trading plattform. There is no control!
To start an RL bank you need a banking licence from the gouvernment in country you live in, which is very hard to get in most countrys, but you need really nothing than a good server to start a coin trading plattform.
You see the risks of fraud here? I cam see it!

So while the system itself and the math behind it, is fairly save, the enviroment around it "the network", isn´t save.
 
mining companies moving their facilities to countries where power is cheap doesn't mean its owned by those countries. local coca cola isn't owned by the countries either...

it's just the easiest way to optimize your return on investment, and even older hardware can run profitable using cheap power.

and please think about it again. centralized means you could shut it down just by shutting down the centralized mining, which is a laughable thought on the current bitcoin network, which is spread over the whole planet and even in space already :p
 
GoNi said:
So while the system itself and the math behind it, is fairly save, the enviroment around it "the network", isn´t save.
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couldn't have said any better, and this also counts for EU. in theory everyone playing EU should have the same scepticism in cryptocurrencies, and try not to get ripped off while taking part. also, only invest what you're able to lose. if you lose too much, who's to blame? the one taking the risk?

i think it's also possible to play the game without losing all your stuff, but i'm a dreamer ;)
 
GoNi said:
Sure its good for the individual, but its still waste of electricity. As long the electricity used for mining comes out of sources that don´t hurt the world (wind, water, solar) I haven´t any issue with that.
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one of the very rare good examples of an ICO that maybe makes sense: https://www.hydrominer.org/

i guess things will probably develop faster than some people's ability to follow up, including mine

and regarding global warming i would rather blame the industrial-military complex, our global trade system and billions of people driving cars and flying airplanes, than some nerds trying to change the financial ripoff system and using 0.1% of world's power on it's way. freedom doesn't come for free, you have to fight an pay for it, in one or the other way...
 
GoNi said:
... do you know that estonia got hacked in 2009, and nothing worked for 4 days.
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Yes the infamous attack of the Russian hackers. Well, no banks were hacked. Some newspapers and government offices/websites were flooded with DDoS attacks, that's not really "being hacked", more like suppressed. Other than that life went on as usual, people outside public sector didn't even notice. Eventually they had to shut down the link with Russia and that was it.

So what would happen if the same attack happens somewhere else? Nothing would happen. This was supposedly done by amateur hackers, not by Russian government (althou you never know with Russia).
If that was true, the real full force attack by some modern government might get pretty ugly. Even then it's highly unlikely the attackers could break into banks and walk away with your money. They could destroy vital systems thou and make it impossible to use them. Considering how our whole infrastructure in developed countries is computerized, non-responsive bank networks would be our smallest problem. We would most likely have much bigger problems to worry about... :yup:
 
Fifth said:
Yes the infamous attack of the Russian hackers. Well, no banks were hacked. Some newspapers and government offices/websites were flooded with DDoS attacks, that's not really "being hacked", more like suppressed. Other than that life went on as usual, people outside public sector didn't even notice. Eventually they had to shut down the link with Russia and that was it.

So what would happen if the same attack happens somewhere else? Nothing would happen. This was supposedly done by amateur hackers, not by Russian government (althou you never know with Russia).
If that was true, the real full force attack by some modern government might get pretty ugly. Even then it's highly unlikely the attackers could break into banks and walk away with your money. They could destroy vital systems thou and make it impossible to use them. Considering how our whole infrastructure in developed countries is computerized, non-responsive bank networks would be our smallest problem. We would most likely have much bigger problems to worry about... :yup:
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Thats right, not that real big issue that you couldn´t use the government offices that few days.
But if crypto really replaces the FIAT money, it would be the hell if you can´t buy anything due to a serious DDoS attack, which simply disables any payments for several days. Its not that the coins will get lost due to such an attack, but if you can´t buy your daily needs in next suppermarket because payment is not possible, damn.

theProphet said:
one of the very rare good examples of an ICO that maybe makes sense: https://www.hydrominer.org/
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Good example for something positive.
Thanks for the link.
 
Will DeepToken be offered to EU players first like CLDs? Would love to buy some with PED.
 
Could DeepToken be a digital currency of a digital currency? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Inception
 
TheOneOmega said:
Will DeepToken be offered to EU players first like CLDs? Would love to buy some with PED.
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The trend is to require items be purchased with dollars.

MA can't use PEDs because they don't have value.
 
TheOneOmega said:
Will DeepToken be offered to EU players first like CLDs? Would love to buy some with PED.
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Interesting question, as MA have recently preferred (read forced) people to make monetary deposits to get at various investments in eu.
I suspect that deep tokens will be 'mined' very very slowly via the current loot system, which has proven to be remarkably slow at letting go of things in the loot pool which people want.
Maybe alternatively they can be 'bought' via deposits and whatever that new concept is of hiding contents in containers which need keys..... boxes I think they are called...!
 
Bertha Bot said:
...More details on DeepToken, MindArk’s token offering, will be made available in the coming days and weeks...
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Days and weeks means months and years to MA... I’m not surprised
 
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