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FYI: What does markup means?

TheRock

TheRock

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Zup all

Been a while since I have mined intensive after the markup crash, but then I got excited when I heard there was something new with mining - the mining boxes in SOOTO.

It is really sad to see the markup is so low on most of resources. Even if there is still some slight markup, it will be mixed with other craps that even the TT machine pukes when it sees them.

So what does MU means?
Here is a little tracklog of almost same drop size from 2013 and now 2017


2013



...4 years later after the eXplosive madness tok over the craftmachines


Sad times :(
 
Your mining MU is ~10% higher than hunting MU. Why are you complaining? :laugh:
 
NPV said:
Your mining MU is ~10% higher than hunting MU. Why are you complaining? :laugh:
Click to expand...

Sorry?
Who mentioned hunting here. Both data are from mining.

Im not complaining, im comparing so you can see what this explosive crafting have did to the game ...
 
TheRock said:
Sorry?
Who mentioned hunting here. Both data are from mining.

Im not complaining, im comparing so you can see what this explosive crafting have did to the game ...
Click to expand...

This is what MA wanted to do buy making the game more cost effective across the board. Its like when noob sweaters try to come up with new idea for use of sweat, but they don't realize that for players to buy their sweat it comes out of someone deposit. I am not trying to tell explain the game to you Rock, that would be like trying to explain to my granny how to suck eggs.

It was not just Explosives that killed MU, but also UL gear, NPC vendors, Strongboxs etc etc. You can still profit from mining, but it not going be like the old days and you have to be more selective on what you mine for now.
 
*snip*
The opening poster is not sweating for free. Listen to them. They might have a point. Without a market, the game is gone. The sandbox premise is that there is a market.
 
Yup..mining is dead.

I remember when i started around 2005 ish..i could actually fund my hunting with mining profits,average MU was 150% and a lot more sometimes even.

Its way more expensive now because of this and only people with huge bankrolls should go mining..sad really:scratch2:

Thank god there's still some in hunting:dunce:


Have fun all.
 
I've tried to discuss the concept of markup before but its difficult to comprehend the overall economics of what increased markup means for Entropia.

The way to increase markup could be (basic economics):

1. Decrease supply

2. Increase demand

1. If MA would decrease supply they would have to make massive changes to the mining prof, perhaps substitute ores/enmats with shrap for most claims. They could also just remove a lot of the claims, making mining really bad in terms of TT-return, this seems highly unlikely and like a poor way to go.


2. In order to increase the demand they would have to introduce a use for resources. This seems like a good idea ofc. The problem is that in the case of entropia it would mean that they would have to introduce new items that are more efficient than the ones we have now, most likely limited ones in order to keep a steady demand. They've already tried introducing misc items with no particular efficieny gain and that didn't really make a great impact on the MU (furniture, clothes etc).


The overall problem is that increased demand is basically just inflating the prices without contributing to increased benefits of playing the game (overall). This leads to increased costs of play, for some or for all depending on how they do it.


If we still want the increased markup from increased demand we have to understand who will pay for it. Should it be shared across the board or should markup be a reward for more experienced players (i.e. pushing the costs downwards in terms of skill/experience)?

If we argue that the explosives has ruined the markup for ore we're basically saying that "high rollers" in terms of crafting should bear the cost of MU. This is most likely not a sustainable way as their cost of play would skyrocket, expl crafting is in most cases already a very expensive activity.


I'm not sure how to solve this equation, irl we can increase markup based on increased benefit or advancement of society but since we're confined to the game mechanics we can't really have a non inflationary increasement in terms of overall MU.

(ofc this isn't the full picture, but a sort of basic conceptualization of the problems that MA face regarding this issue)
 
Hatten said:
I've tried to discuss the concept of markup before but its difficult to comprehend the overall economics of what increased markup means for Entropia.

The way to increase markup could be (basic economics):

1. Decrease supply

2. Increase demand

1. If MA would decrease supply they would have to make massive changes to the mining prof, perhaps substitute ores/enmats with shrap for most claims. They could also just remove a lot of the claims, making mining really bad in terms of TT-return, this seems highly unlikely and like a poor way to go.


2. In order to increase the demand they would have to introduce a use for resources. This seems like a good idea ofc. The problem is that in the case of entropia it would mean that they would have to introduce new items that are more efficient than the ones we have now, most likely limited ones in order to keep a steady demand. They've already tried introducing misc items with no particular efficieny gain and that didn't really make a great impact on the MU (furniture, clothes etc).


The overall problem is that increased demand is basically just inflating the prices without contributing to increased benefits of playing the game (overall). This leads to increased costs of play, for some or for all depending on how they do it.


If we still want the increased markup from increased demand we have to understand who will pay for it. Should it be shared across the board or should markup be a reward for more experienced players (i.e. pushing the costs downwards in terms of skill/experience)?

If we argue that the explosives has ruined the markup for ore we're basically saying that "high rollers" in terms of crafting should bear the cost of MU. This is most likely not a sustainable way as their cost of play would skyrocket, expl crafting is in most cases already a very expensive activity.


I'm not sure how to solve this equation, irl we can increase markup based on increased benefit or advancement of society but since we're confined to the game mechanics we can't really have a non inflationary increasement in terms of overall MU.

(ofc this isn't the full picture, but a sort of basic conceptualization of the problems that MA face regarding this issue)
Click to expand...

most of this is true... but i think crafters, if they want to gamble, should pay MU to do so. if a hunter wants to gamble he needs to buy a huge ass gun with huge ass amps and huge ass armor to be able to do so. in order to get those things he has to pay MU. for most hunters it means they have to buy limited stuff cos the UL stuff to gamble is far too expensive for most average hunters.
and the better example in comparison to that is the miners. when they wanne chase the ATH they have to go indoors (equivalent to condition crafting) and they have to use either one of the new high MU strongbox finders, or more usual the level 13 amp with 130% MU. so why should crafter (with the highest possible turnover) dont have to pay MU for their gamble (apart from the far too cheap BP that doesnt decay).
this seems highly unfair. so why doesnt MA introduce repairable UL LVL 13 amps for 500 peds one time payment? because its ridiculous. so is EP4 bp.
 
Me Really Never said:
most of this is true... but i think crafters, if they want to gamble, should pay MU to do so. if a hunter wants to gamble he needs to buy a huge ass gun with huge ass amps and huge ass armor to be able to do so. in order to get those things he has to pay MU. for most hunters it means they have to buy limited stuff cos the UL stuff to gamble is far too expensive for most average hunters.
and the better example in comparison to that is the miners. when they wanne chase the ATH they have to go indoors (equivalent to condition crafting) and they have to use either one of the new high MU strongbox finders, or more usual the level 13 amp with 130% MU. so why should crafter (with the highest possible turnover) dont have to pay MU for their gamble (apart from the far too cheap BP that doesnt decay).
this seems highly unfair. so why doesnt MA introduce repairable UL LVL 13 amps for 500 peds one time payment? because its ridiculous. so is EP4 bp.
Click to expand...

The question is if they will afford it or it will the overall activity just decrease. If one argues that the gamblers should pay then one assumes that they will spend more in this game. My guess is that MA has estimated that they want to promote gambling (they need to give them some sort of carrot, if the returns are too shitty ppl won't afford to gamle and perhaps quit).
 
Mac Farmer said:
Thats crazy
But 15k profit in 36k? spend seems not balanced at all

thanks for share :)
Click to expand...

Yes, and this fully explains his complaints.

We had the same thread about hunting.

Now we can change the subject to mining.

"Should uber miners get guaranteed profit?"
 
What MU means in here in the game.

100% or higher you as a player get an income.
100% or less MA earns a profit.

Then you have to look at your repair costs and deduct that amoun, You may also add the cost of ammo, bombs and so on before you can see the real income or lost.

In general, the lower MU, the greater the loss for you in a long time.
 
amp costs are also a lot lower... lvl 5 was 112-114% in 2013 (golden years of mining)

now they're 103% or lower (hence the reason UL amps and their supposed 100k values should have tanked by 5x but collusion so w/e)


the unfortunate reality is that crafting and mining in 2013 enabled players to literally take salaries from the game. I made nearly 156k ped in 2013 mining, now i'm lucky to pull off 70k in a year.

UL amp owners (Eve in particular) were able to pull 400k ped/year due to the massive markup input savings provided they mined 8-10 hours 5 days/week.

I'm bitter about ep4 and what it did to the economy, but it was necessary for the game to survive... even though MA doesn't directly lose from players profiting via markup despite TT loss, it takes capital out of the game which DOES hurt them.

Shitty all around i guess, but right now particularly mined resources are at an all time low MU.. good thing TT returns can compensate somewhat.


Edit: let's not forget about amp crafters who were pulling 40-60k/month in profits due to incredible turnover and 108% residue. =D

hunting was all that was left as far as "salary profit professions" go, but loot 2.0 put an end to that didn't it? so i guess we're all stuck in the same shithole? at least we can go down in flames together.
 
wizz said:
Yes, and this fully explains his complaints.

We had the same thread about hunting.

Now we can change the subject to mining.

"Should uber miners get guaranteed profit?"
Click to expand...

Who is talking about complaining?
I try to show the newbeginners what markup means and how it affects you in a long term.

I came to conclution that the player base is the beggest issue here and the eXplosives are just a part of the decreasing of markup. If we had 2x more playerbase, i think we would have seen different markups.
 
Rocket192 said:
amp costs are also a lot lower... lvl 5 was 112-114% in 2013 (golden years of mining)

now they're 103% or lower (hence the reason UL amps and their supposed 100k values should have tanked by 5x but collusion so w/e)


the unfortunate reality is that crafting and mining in 2013 enabled players to literally take salaries from the game. I made nearly 156k ped in 2013 mining, now i'm lucky to pull off 70k in a year.

UL amp owners (Eve in particular) were able to pull 400k ped/year due to the massive markup input savings provided they mined 8-10 hours 5 days/week.

I'm bitter about ep4 and what it did to the economy, but it was necessary for the game to survive... even though MA doesn't directly lose from players profiting via markup despite TT loss, it takes capital out of the game which DOES hurt them.

Shitty all around i guess, but right now particularly mined resources are at an all time low MU.. good thing TT returns can compensate somewhat.


Edit: let's not forget about amp crafters who were pulling 40-60k/month in profits due to incredible turnover and 108% residue. =D

hunting was all that was left as far as "salary profit professions" go, but loot 2.0 put an end to that didn't it? so i guess we're all stuck in the same shithole? at least we can go down in flames together.
Click to expand...

Good old times huh? ^^ Glad more people made profits back then :)
Amps are useless if there is no markup.

Lets wait for the crafting and mining loot 2.0 to come. Will be interesting to see how positiv or negative it will effect markups. Hopefully to the better.
 
I said it before and I'll say it again, whoever in MA that invented the Explosives BP totally and utterly DESTROYED the game!!!! And no I'm not EXAGGERATING!

MU is based on supply and demand, that is what makes Entropy a community game, you have to deal with others to find what is needed and supply it to help them, and it goes around in a circle.

Now think about it, must of the "gamblers" used to pump a LOT of peds into crafting gambles, this resulted in more MU on materials. Examples are the old crafters that used to craft cloths, amps, furniture, etc.

So, the introduction of Explosive BP: Now ALL the "gamblers" can just get their materials from the TT, NO markup goes to the community, It literally turned the game into a slot machine!!! Now a rich "gambler" that used to support the community can just put $$ into the game, and do nothing for the community but !!!! it...

And I say this as one of the "gamblers" and someone who has been in game since 2003...

But hey, what do I know, MA made game cheaper to play for nubs by crashing all MU and making none in community need to work with community, it must be a good thing right? lol

Look where the game has been going since the introduction of Explosive BP, and you have your answer what crashed and is crashing the game...
 
Poep said:
Yup..mining is dead.

I remember when i started around 2005 ish..i could actually fund my hunting with mining profits,average MU was 150% and a lot more sometimes even.

Its way more expensive now because of this and only people with huge bankrolls should go mining..sad really:scratch2:

Thank god there's still some in hunting:dunce:


Have fun all.
Click to expand...

no :) Mining is not dead


we must now do mining intelligently.
130% for belkar, 140% for nexus is a dream now, but some resources have a good % and are easily to find : typo/igni/kane/ ... redulite, zanderium ...
several resources are around 120% MU. just try to have a cost nearest TT value for your runs
 
Geronimo said:
no :) Mining is not dead


we must now do mining intelligently.
130% for belkar, 140% for nexus is a dream now, but some resources have a good % and are easily to find : typo/igni/kane/ ... redulite, zanderium ...
several resources are around 120% MU. just try to have a cost nearest TT value for your runs
Click to expand...

with lvl 5 markup input % around 2-2.5% and d-class 3.5-4% depending on finder, most players only need to get 114-115% markup to profit, but typically even less..


there are a plethora of 116-119% markup average spots in game. We just have to be smarter now. increasing turnover while keeping markup input down is definitely a recipe for success now if you can get the markup avg.
 
Geronimo said:
no :) Mining is not dead


we must now do mining intelligently.
130% for belkar, 140% for nexus is a dream now, but some resources have a good % and are easily to find : typo/igni/kane/ ... redulite, zanderium ...
several resources are around 120% MU. just try to have a cost nearest TT value for your runs
Click to expand...

Must agree 100% here :)

Making profit is not that hard to do in mining nowadays, mining clever is the answer.
It all depends where and HOW you mine.
No need for a big or huge budget neither, I'm helping people that have less than 500 ped to start mining and even they make profit.
 
Rocket192 said:
with lvl 5 markup input % around 2-2.5% and d-class 3.5-4% depending on finder, most players only need to get 114-115% markup to profit, but typically even less..


there are a plethora of 116-119% markup average spots in game. We just have to be smarter now. increasing turnover while keeping markup input down is definitely a recipe for success now if you can get the markup avg.
Click to expand...

my cost for mining is near tt, the only MU i pay is Enhancers. i'm around 100.3/100.5% cost
my average depth is 866.9m atm
my average MU on sells is between 110/112% and it is enough for some profit and play for free? it is all i want here :D
 
Geronimo said:
my cost for mining is near tt, the only MU i pay is Enhancers. i'm around 100.3/100.5% cost
my average depth is 866.9m atm
my average MU on sells is between 110/112% and it is enough for some profit and play for free? it is all i want here :D
Click to expand...

then you're winning the game :)
 
Yeah I think the 112%+ on mining is pure profit.

However, i got confused with mining lately due to hitting 1.5k unamped. So this changes things to hybrid. By hybrind, a little of old time mining system and a bit of now. Unless we start hitting towers unamped. Another thing to prove or disprov

Those mining boxes too are also good little boost on MU if they manage to sell 100ped / box as i think they might do if they keep on be as rare as they are now.
 
High MU can work only if everything is expensive. That includes your mind essence, your food for pets, your (L) equipment. Taming was an immense ped sink, MF was silly before syntethic ME, but hey nexus had MU. I prefer to tt Nexus and be able to have a somewhat decent chance to survive hunting with TT ME.

My problem with explo 4 is that it encourages gambling as an addiction, but the effect on economy is good.
 
Was browsing old files and saw this. omg:cry::eek:
From the gold age era of 2012

 
Mark up is simply the result of supply and demand, when supply outstrips demand it will go down. When the need for that resource increases due to new BPs, popularity of certain weapons/amps during events etc, then MU climbs.
Comparing todays MU with previous years or even weeks has little if any relevance.
Examples of what may make MU Low :
old BPs no longer used, new BP uses different resource
someone had a HOF or Tower and flooded the market
between events a drop in sales of those items that use this resource in manufacture
MA flooding market by seeding too many claims of the same resources

Raised MU:
New BP needing that resource
Events requiring increased item production using that resource
Low spawn rates of the resource

As miners we all need to constantly watch MU and understand the market, so we know when to TT and move on, when to hoard for price rises during events, where to seek rares.
As a miner and crafter I see this as a challenge for both roles, to max MU on sales, to minimise MU spent on purchases, it can be done with care and attention
Heading to terminal to check out todays MU and work out if I should mine or buy my resources today
 
bigdaddy trim said:
This is what MA wanted to do buy making the game more cost effective across the board. Its like when noob sweaters try to come up with new idea for use of sweat, but they don't realize that for players to buy their sweat it comes out of someone deposit. I am not trying to tell explain the game to you Rock, that would be like trying to explain to my granny how to suck eggs.

It was not just Explosives that killed MU, but also UL gear, NPC vendors, Strongboxs etc etc. You can still profit from mining, but it not going be like the old days and you have to be more selective on what you mine for now.
Click to expand...


In the 'old days' when I started...everything was UL . And yet everything also had MU.
There were also NPC vendors for different starter gear.

The introduction of (L) gear was seen as the end of MU for UL stuff...

I would venture that it isn't these things that have affected MU, rather a lack of things to make, compared to the 'old days'. Most BPs are now useless and don't get used (anyone still craft basic filters etc?), so the materials to make them are not going to get bought as often, ergo little if any demand and no MU.
Who practices colouring anymore? Or making clothes? Anyone making good armour anymore? what about guns? Who makes a good selection of guns anymore?

MA need to get their act together with crafting and make the old BP's needed to make components, which will make parts, which will make armours / guns / furniture / clothing / ships / axes / knives / swords / FAPs / etc etc etc. Both UL and L
Create a demand for the ores and enmatters, and they will gain MU. More demand than supply and MU rises..
 
nutter said:
MA need to get their act together with crafting and make the old BP's needed to make components, which will make parts, which will make armours / guns / furniture / clothing / ships / axes / knives / swords / FAPs / etc etc etc. Both UL and L
Create a demand for the ores and enmatters, and they will gain MU. More demand than supply and MU rises..
Click to expand...
Been saying for a long time what Mindark should do is create sort of 2 or 5 different paths to take... Keep L as it is more or less where it's slightly better eco than UL version of the stuff... BUT... make the old school UL stuff more worth having by putting upgrade paths on everything old school where you can upgrade via crafting to buff the hell out of the items.... so you can choose to to L and be eco or go UL and get buffy where the buffs may outweigh the benefit of eco etc. ... Also get interesting with it and more crafting based than the current 'upgrade' mission type crap in game... Then go a few different routes with it so your pro level in crafting actually makes some sense, etc. There was talk of making armor require skills or something so UL will act like L, etc. Go that rougte and then some as well... Don't stop at armor...
 
jak said:
I said it before and I'll say it again, whoever in MA that invented the Explosives BP totally and utterly DESTROYED the game!!!! And no I'm not EXAGGERATING!

MU is based on supply and demand, that is what makes Entropy a community game, you have to deal with others to find what is needed and supply it to help them, and it goes around in a circle.

Now think about it, must of the "gamblers" used to pump a LOT of peds into crafting gambles, this resulted in more MU on materials. Examples are the old crafters that used to craft cloths, amps, furniture, etc.

So, the introduction of Explosive BP: Now ALL the "gamblers" can just get their materials from the TT, NO markup goes to the community, It literally turned the game into a slot machine!!! Now a rich "gambler" that used to support the community can just put $$ into the game, and do nothing for the community but !!!! it...

And I say this as one of the "gamblers" and someone who has been in game since 2003...

But hey, what do I know, MA made game cheaper to play for nubs by crashing all MU and making none in community need to work with community, it must be a good thing right? lol

Look where the game has been going since the introduction of Explosive BP, and you have your answer what crashed and is crashing the game...
Click to expand...


The perfect answer!
 
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