Compet "Deed" Revenue starts 25th Feb 2018

It is not my intention to annoy 711; However occasionally some news needs to be mentioned to the community, especially considering the volatile position of these deeds in Calypso auction. Please give it a few days for comments then shift to the closed Compet section.

Mindark CEO Henrick Nel, announced today that Compet deed revenue will commence on the 25th February 2018 and then monthly thereafter. I believe Mindark will honour this announcement.

Link

http://forum.competgame.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&p=26253&sid=60c212b0305581e2e7abb07dbebf0340#p26253

Kind regards

Rick

So will the payment be a lump sum initially or will it be amortized over a period of time ?

Bones said:

So will the payment be a lump sum initially or will it be amortized over a period of time ?

Click to expand...

All accumulated revenue since launch on 25th Feb, then monthly generated revenue each month after that.

Rick

edit: so yeah lump sum payment on 25th

RickEngland said:

All accumulated revenue since launch on 25th Feb, then monthly generated revenue each month after that.

Click to expand...

Ok, so place your bets please on the volume of the first payment. (no prizes - just for fun)
[Notice: probably not many people will be able to make different guesses first, well not realistic ones anyway. ]

I'm going to take the rather tongue-in-cheek value of 1 pec and say that the payment is finally happening now because the 1 pec threshold has finally been achieved.

However, I look forward to more educated guesses as to what the amount will be!

Good news, regardless of the development being slow I bet the first payment will put CLD/AUD to shame .

From there who knows what will happen, but feels like a step in the right direction.

Cheers for the heads up.

EDIT: How many months of revenue will be paid in that first payment?

Well I just bought 5 compet deeds at 82 ped each on auction... weekly MU was around 77.

So I'm happy. Better pay up MA on february 25th
Either way not a massive loss if they don't...

jetsina said:

I'm going to take the rather tongue-in-cheek value of 1 pec and say that the payment is finally happening now because the 1 pec threshold has finally been achieved.

However, I look forward to more educated guesses as to what the amount will be!

Click to expand...

So funny.

Well compet deeds are 30% revenue of the "entire" game, unlike CLD which are a percent of the planet partners share. Which was always one of the things that attracted me in the first place based on risk (plus I like pets buts that's just a bonus). So it's not hard to make good numbers with a reasonable level of turnover, given time and a little patience for the game to get going. Let's be honest EU was 10 years old+ when MA sold it.

Also people tend to confuse revenue with profit or tax, when potential revenue has far more influence over deed returns.

I was around in compet in the early days and I can tell you a ton of diamonds got burned up, not to mention the rush for lifesteal trinkets and powering them up. So I don't think the payout will be that bad at all.

You only need $688 of revenue to generate 1 pec per deed. Remember that's not deposits, it's diamonds burned + possibly some gold coins,(not clear), that's regardless if you got those diamonds free just for playing. Revenue is not cash either, it's a token called ped (so cash is irrelevant). Nor does cost matter either, because its not Revenue less cost = profit.

That's why revenue is such a magical word when it comes to deeds, far more than tax.

Anyway I'm not putting a number on it, because I don't want to provide my expectations of what MA may decide to share out. Because a number can be whatever you want it to be....smiles (laughing).

Right I'm off to bed, too much excitement for one day plus it's almost 2am.

NN

Rick

urgh... there goes the in game auction sniping... lol

back to ark moon buying I suppose.

Ah well, at least got my second little deed the other day.

(might be time to dust out the old whips as soon I finish up this little si heart upgrade in about another 100 or so mobs)

It'll be interesting to see how closely this date is tied in to when the deep token coins become available...

Better Late Than Never.

This is too predictable not to mention.......

First payment - big...ish (amalgamation of the last two years)

price of deeds will rocket

ALL subsequent payments = bugger all

price of deeds will plummet to nothing

Too good not to mention. The game has been stuck at 50000 installs for over a year. I doubt there will be any future payments. Why do you think they have gone to a monthly payment rather than week or day.

A real shame MA don't know how to advertise.

Rgds

Ace

RickEngland said:

Also people tend to confuse revenue with profit or tax, when potential revenue has far more influence over deed returns.
...
That's why revenue is such a magical word when it comes to deeds, far more than tax.

Rick

Click to expand...

Nice reply - thanks Rick.
On the quoted bit, MA has in the past "confused" what revenue means too, resulting in lower payouts for CLDs at Mayhem time, for example. A straightforward calculation of 'decay' siphoning was clearly NOT used back then, so although all diamonds 'should' be treated the same ... etc etc.

Anyway, yes, like Ace believes, the first payment will be big...ish in my opinion, but only relative to what will follow, at least for the time being.
I also hope for integration with EU at various levels...

jetsina said:

Nice reply - thanks Rick.
On the quoted bit, MA has in the past "confused" what revenue means too, resulting in lower payouts for CLDs at Mayhem time, for example. A straightforward calculation of 'decay' siphoning was clearly NOT used back then, so although all diamonds 'should' be treated the same ... etc etc.

Anyway, yes, like Ace believes, the first payment will be big...ish in my opinion, but only relative to what will follow, at least for the time being.
I also hope for integration with EU at various levels...

Click to expand...

i wouldnt even be so sure that the first payment will be big enough to offset the losses on the deed price. especially when seeing how many "tournament" prices MA has given away to compet players and that those will be most likely paid out of the shareholders pocket. my educated guess would be 5 to 10 pec first payment tops and then about 1 pec every 1 to 3 months

Me Really Never said:

i wouldnt even be so sure that the first payment will be big enough to offset the losses on the deed price. especially when seeing how many "tournament" prices MA has given away to compet players and that those will be most likely paid out of the shareholders pocket. my educated guess would be 5 to 10 pec first payment tops and then about 1 pec every 1 to 3 months

Click to expand...

Yeah, this is one of the MAJOR problems I have with MA apparently 'bending' what words mean. I have still not seen a statement by them on that issue and would not be surprised to see the same method implemented again here in terms of how prizes are accounted.

Frankly, however, if the first payment were big enough to offset the current losses on the market price for deeds, then there would be a big rush to buy more, the price would go up and people could then sell without a loss overall.

Thanks also for your guess. To be honest instead of tongue-in-cheek as before, I do think the first payout will be higher than you think despite agreeing with you overall.

I'm pretty sure the first payout will be bigger than most expect, but there's no point in arguing since we will see in just 25 days.

By the way sales of 100 PED/each are already happening (check MU ingame if you don't believe me) and the auction house is pretty much empty of compet deeds.

Angel O2 Mercer said:

I'm pretty sure the first payout will be bigger than most expect, but there's no point in arguing since we will see in just 25 days.

By the way sales of 100 PED/each are already happening (check MU ingame if you don't believe me) and the auction house is pretty much empty of compet deeds.

Click to expand...

Looks like my instinct to buy 5 at 83 ped each paid out already .

Me Really Never said:

i wouldnt even be so sure that the first payment will be big enough to offset the losses on the deed price. especially when seeing how many "tournament" prices MA has given away to compet players and that those will be most likely paid out of the shareholders pocket. my educated guess would be 5 to 10 pec first payment tops and then about 1 pec every 1 to 3 months

Click to expand...

It's ok pulling a number out of thin air, although you do really need 'some' justification for why you consider it to be that value.

Let's assume that the first payment covers one year 365 days (it's longer I believe, although I'm not digging out dates right now).
Let's also assume the first dividend is 10 pec (the higher end of your estimate).

It takes about $668 of 100% revenue (not deposits) to generate 1 pec per deed at 30%
So 10 pec = 10 x $668 = $6680 revenue at 100% (total revenue).
$6680 / 365 days = $18.30 100% revenue average per day.

One trinket box from the shop is 200 diamonds.
If you bought 50 diamonds that would cost you 10 ped or $1
So you need $4 of revenue just to buy one box. Yet tons of those have been sold.

So for trinkets alone MA only needs to sell less than 5 a day to hit that $18 a day revenue number.
That's excluding the whole list of other things to spend diamonds on.

(edit) I personally bought a lot of shield's in the early days to stop raids and enable me to upgrade my village. A mountain of diamonds would have been spent on village protection.

Now revenue is quite interesting because MA could include gold coin spend to some degree in the revenue calcs as well. For things like selecting fights in raids, pet upgrades, building upgrades, gym etc. There's a conversion from gold to diamonds in Compet too.


On the matter of prizes that is irrelevant because that is a "cost".
It's like you saying your salary is $2000 a month (the revenue)
But your train fares are $500 a month (the cost and in this instance the "prizes").

Your salary hasn't changed because of your train fares (prizes), its still $2000.

I think the revenue number will actually shock a few people, because it not hard to sum up significant revenue from the game. I wouldn't be surprised at 10 - 20 PED (not pec) a deed for the first payout. That's me being quite conservative.
Although it all depends how MA calculate the number....hahaha.

I actually haven't done some big estimates on it yet, I'd rather wait to see what MA pays then try and back fill how they came to that decision (just for fun).


Rick

RickEngland said:

So for trinkets alone MA only needs to sell less than 5 a day to hit that $18 a day revenue number.
That's excluding the whole list of other things to spend diamonds on.
...
Now revenue is quite interesting because MA could include gold coin spend to some degree in the revenue calcs as well. For things like selecting fights in raids, pet upgrades, building upgrades, gym etc. There's a conversion from gold to diamonds in Compet too.

...
I think the revenue number will actually shock a few people, because it not hard to sum up significant revenue from the game. I wouldn't be surprised at 10 - 20 PED (not pec) a deed for the first payout. That's me being quite conservative.
Although it all depends how MA calculate the number....hahaha.

I actually haven't done some big estimates on it yet, I'd rather wait to see what MA pays then try and back fill how they came to that decision (just for fun).


Rick

Click to expand...

Hi Rick,
without wishing to go too deeply into this, the three of us discussing this may share the same opinion on the meaning of a word with however many experts we like. The problem is if MA doesn't, and this appears to be precisely a case in point here (see the Mayhem week with no CLD payouts and why...).

It has been perfectly possible to play for free and get gold and diamond levels up. Spending them again may not count as revenue at all in MA's eyes I fear (yes, I know and we know...).

On the other hand, how many deeds truly sold at 100 or 120 peds and how much money was spent on development? Humpty Dumpty had an interesting quote on what words mean, and MA is that figure on the wall here. Still, even then they cannot pay out enough to make these deeds look 'seriously attractive again', surely?

RickEngland said:

I think the revenue number will actually shock a few people, because it not hard to sum up significant revenue from the game. I wouldn't be surprised at 10 - 20 PED (not pec) a deed for the first payout. That's me being quite conservative.
Although it all depends how MA calculate the number....hahaha.

Click to expand...

Also not sure if you pointed this out or not, but I'm guessing the revenue for each deed will be based on the days the current owner has had them and not the date they were released.

Ace Flyster said:

This is too predictable not to mention.......

First payment - big...ish (amalgamation of the last two years)

price of deeds will rocket

ALL subsequent payments = bugger all

price of deeds will plummet to nothing

Too good not to mention. The game has been stuck at 50000 installs for over a year. I doubt there will be any future payments. Why do you think they have gone to a monthly payment rather than week or day.

A real shame MA don't know how to advertise.

Rgds

Ace

Click to expand...

The free to play version is the one that shows 50K downloads. No one knows how many downloaded the PC or mobile version where you can use peds. YOu can't download any real money ''gambling'' apps on the Play Store. However, I don't think hundred of thousand peope did download the real $$ version on the compet website.

OZtwo said:

Also not sure if you pointed this out or not, but I'm guessing the revenue for each deed will be based on the days the current owner has had them and not the date they were released.

Click to expand...

uhm, no... payout will be even across board for each deed held. It'd be too complicated otherwise for m.a.s server to handle...

RickEngland said:

I wouldn't be surprised at 10 - 20 PED (not pec) a deed for the first payout. That's me being quite conservative.

Rick

Click to expand...

My guess is 3 ped a deed initial payout then about about 5 pecs a week after that. Unless of course MA is going to salt the payouts...

*tin foil hat on* Part of me believes this recent move on the Compet payout front is mostly an effort to try to cast off the bad mojo that the Compet failure has caused surrounding MA investment opportunities. Many people put a lot of money into Compet and lost their ass with it due to the markup crash on the deeds as a result of there severely delayed roll out, payouts and poor communication with investors.

With their deep token project pretty much being their biggest hail-Mary gamble on a profitable income stream for the company (that they plan to fund Entropia development with) they don't want the bad press lingering of people saying shit like "I'm not investing in that, look how MA's last investment opportunity (Compet) turned out... they STILL haven't even paid us" (or similar statement).

By following through with the payouts on Compet now and possibly adding some extra money to the payouts from now till deep token launches it will make Compet appear more successful than it actually was/is and thus boost people confidence in future MA investment opportunities (deep token). Food for thought...

*tin foil hat off*

jambon said:

My guess is 3 ped a deed initial payout then about about 5 pecs a week after that. Unless of course MA is going to salt the payouts...

*tin foil hat on* .....

Click to expand...

Smiling, because expectations need to be carefully managed. It's quite interesting because both compet and deeptoken are unknowns. If I was MA i'd be asking, what do we pay them to meet their expectations, without knowing their expectations, against how we calculate revenue.

I've always believed CLD generate much more revenue than MA suggest it does, and it's been carefully managed to smooth returns that's acceptable to all parties. Hard to complain at 100%+ return anyway.

Now lets say Compet has earned 50 ped a deed (crazy number, just saying), Ma would never pay that out. It's likely they would say it was 20 and then "spread" revenue over further months. Because people like to see smooth lines, or growing revenue, not wild up and down charts. It provides confidence, and settles markets.

Anyway; in all seriousness I do think compet has done reasonably well for those that play it, and can see how many players have progressed in there. Because they know what it takes to get pets to level 30, you need a completed village to do that.

I agree though, that number is whatever Ma wants it to be. No one would complain at 20 ped a deed would they...nudge nudge.

Rick

edit: when you behave like an investment bank 'and' generate your own asset. Dividend is the least of your problems, when you consider the deposits to be earned on deed resales. Imagine the money MA made on CLD re-sales at over 2K each and AUD at 80+. We're talking millions of dollars, that likely never get withdrawn. A game within a game within a game.

Just for a point of interest, I was flicking through the news section in my Compet account last night. You can scroll all the way down and all news is still there (in game).

I think it was something like 580+ days ish that it said we're in open beta and accumulating revenue. That means on 25th Feb 2018 its around 600 days of accumulated revenue. That's almost 2 years.

Anyone that's had a compet account for that long, should be able to see that news report (right near the end).

Hope helps with your investment decisions. Not long now folks.

Rick

RickEngland said:

I think it was something like 580+ days ish that it said we're in open beta and accumulating revenue.
Rick

Click to expand...

Doesn't time fly by?! Maybe it's just my way of thinking, but it actually dampens my expectation of what average value to take as a measure of ComPet's 'pulse' because the period is longer.
Considering that the other ped-based offerings are paying out in the region of 7-8% a year at their current market trading price, the payout here would indeed need to be in your expected range - except that it is not my expected range.
Plus, markets supposedly price in future expectations - and I'm not sure what we should do there exactly 'cough'...

If MA are planning a 'sweetener', as some have suggested and I also consider as at least possible, then ok.

I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure that the most telling thing of all is the monthly payment. If a Compet Deed payout equals 1 pec (monthly), then it's not hard to put a valuation on it at 1/4 of what an AUD is worth, since the AUD pays approximately 4 times more.

So your Compet deeds very well could be only worth 20 ped each after the initial payment. Tread lightly here.

Legends said:

I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure that the most telling thing of all is the monthly payment. If a Compet Deed payout equals 1 pec (monthly), then it's not hard to put a valuation on it at 1/4 of what an AUD is worth, since the AUD pays approximately 4 times more.

So your Compet deeds very well could be only worth 20 ped each after the initial payment. Tread lightly here.

Click to expand...

AUDs pay out much more than 4 pecs a month. The payout is daily not weekly - and more than 1 pec per day on average (I've not calculated exactly here). An approximation is that they cost 80 peds each and pay out 50 pecs a month or so. Try feeding that into ComPet terms and I, personally, am not confident, although Rick would seem to be.

jetsina said:

AUDs pay out much more than 4 pecs a month. The payout is daily not weekly - and more than 1 pec per day on average (I've not calculated exactly here). An approximation is that they cost 80 peds each and pay out 50 pecs a month or so. Try feeding that into ComPet terms and I, personally, am not confident, although Rick would seem to be.

Click to expand...

Done some number calcs now, to try get a clearly comparasion. below.

Legends said:

I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure that the most telling thing of all is the monthly payment. If a Compet Deed payout equals 1 pec (monthly), then it's not hard to put a valuation on it at 1/4 of what an AUD is worth, since the AUD pays approximately 4 times more.

So your Compet deeds very well could be only worth 20 ped each after the initial payment. Tread lightly here.

Click to expand...

ok lets do some comparasions.

(edit) This is what's needed to earn one pec per AUD or Compet

Ark UG based on 5% tax.

40000 ped ($4000) of loot required, taxed at 5% = 2000 ped (or $200)
2000 ped divided by 200,000 deeds - 0.01 ped per deed

Compet based on 30% revenue

6670 ped ($667) = Revenue to earn one pec
70% for MA = 4670 ped
30% for deed holders = 2000 ped (or £200)
2000 ped divided by 200,000 deeds - 0.01 ped per deed

Now to make it fair as Ark UG originally sold at 50 ped and Compet originally sold at 100 ped
Then we should measure it on Ark UG only needs to make half a pec (or 0.005 ped) as 2 Ark Deeds are worth 1 compet.

Ark UG based on 5% tax.

20000 ped ($2000) of loot required, taxed at 5% = 1000 ped (or $100)
1000 ped divided by 200,000 deeds - 0.005 ped per deed

Therefore:
Based on exact peds invested

6670 ped divided by 20000 ped = 33.3%
The whole of Compet needs only 33% of the turnover of Ark UG to generate the same income.

Swings and roundabouts:

Sure there's much more ped spent in EU than in Compet.
But EU is massive and the Ark UG needs to attract players to that small part of EU.
When players play compet, whatever they do in that game contributes to compet revenue (i.e. just playing it).

But sure everything is risk. What do you think? Hope my brain calculator is working ok.

Rick

edit: I've counted Ark UG at 50 ped to buy not 80+ ped

For compet to generate revenue people need to deposit, i think i have deposited 20 usd to compet during the soon 2 years since it was released as beta and my village is maxed out and i have alot of level 30 pets.

toad said:

For compet to generate revenue people need to deposit, i think i have deposited 20 usd to compet during the soon 2 years since it was released as beta and my village is maxed out and i have alot of level 30 pets.

Click to expand...

so assuming most players are in a similar position... 50k downloads X $20 = $1 million (Which means I'm in the wrong business for starters). But $1 million in revenue X 30% = $300,000 / 200,000 deeds = $1.50 per deed or 15 ped payout after 2 years.

That's probably the most that could be hoped for cause really, do we really think a so-so game in beta with 50k downloads and zero advertising can make more than $1 million?

toad said:

For compet to generate revenue people need to deposit, i think i have deposited 20 usd to compet during the soon 2 years since it was released as beta and my village is maxed out and i have alot of level 30 pets.

Click to expand...

Sorry toad to say it. Don't know why people seem to link revenue with deposits. Sure the game wants people to deposit cash, but deposits are not revenue.

Ask yourself this how many free diamonds did you burn up when we got them free? Explains why MA cut back on the free ones doesn't it....smiles (shouldn't laugh, but it was funny knowing that raiding people and getting diamonds was improving revenue). People can still get free diamonds btw, in the forest against rare pets., and other battles

It's the same for EU and revenue on CLD, although that works by decay.
If you sweated 200 ped, then decayed it. You got your 200 ped free from thin air, then decayed it, and generated revenue for CLD's.

Then MA pay with a token called ped, which is not real money either. Sometimes it's hard to get our heads around it, as we're confusing how MA gets paid, to how we get paid.

Funny really, this virtual world. Missed my damn train now.

Laters..smiles

Rick:

Ps Same in real life, ask an accountant about a P&L account (Profit and Loss)

Revenue & Cost on your P&L, it could look fantasic, massive revenue.
Now ask what their cash balance is...."that" is sitting on the balance sheet, nothing to do with P&L.

So the company could look superb on paper, but if they got no cash (real money) then the P&L is pretty worthless. But for deeds, its the P&L that matters.....we don't give a shit about the balance sheet, that's MA's problem....hahahaha.

By the way I'm not an accountant, f** that. I do Commercial and law, but I need to understand that stuff.