My long overdue mining rant

i'm one of those crafters who isn't crafting EP and i can't craft anymore thanks to shitty returns D:
So there may be a good reason that most globals are just from EP gamblers ^^
The problem is that there is mostly nothing worth crafting out side mining amps and a few select guns.

No, the big problem with crafting is this BS success rate. Either the resources you need to craft in-demand items have no markup or astronomical markup - there is no middle ground for items that sell. And if that weren't bad enough the success rate to actually create the items you want is a complete fucking crapshoot. As a ballpark you can hope to get maybe 35% actually success in creating the thing you want on max QTY regardless of skill. But this can just as easily be as low as 10% on a modest sized run - which is what you generally do when crafting stuff that sells slow like some guns/amps. Not about to spend 300,000 peds crafting 1000 guns in the hopes I'll sell them this decade and that the markup will remain steady.

Generally, one doesn't need to give a shit about their TT return in crafting if they are actually getting the item they are trying to make and it has some markup to offset their loss.

But with the way things are most crafters have turned to EPs as it's easy gambling without the extra BS. Why have hassle of gathering materials and the exponential risk associated with crafting (risk of TT return, risk of crafting the desired item, risk of the item selling) when you can just get what you need out of the TT and risk once on TT value when crafting EPs with an upside potential of 200,000 peds? You don't even need to wait to sell what you make - just pop it in the TT and start over with another run.

Much like hunting, the loots of mining are pretty much useless beyond TT value at this point and thus the vast majority have no markup. And without markup on ores/enmatter the swings in mining loot are too insane as the whole system was based on most ores/enmatters having markups of 115% - 120%. Mining worked pretty well back in 2006/2007 when this was the case. But now... very few are getting anywhere close to 80% returns in mining and even less are able to squeeze a profit from regular mining.

Those that are boasting big returns are generally just getting lucky with big hits with big amps. Hardly something that can be called a sustainable "strategy".... "yup, just run out and drop bombs with level 13 amps constantly during peak times and eventually you'll hit big ...or not". lol
 
No, the big problem with crafting is this BS success rate.

Amen. And even (L) clicks which have supposedly max QR, so max CoS, are entirely unpredictable. Can be literally anything from 12% to 75%, which kind of screws the whole initial motivation of (L) clicks.
 
Amen. And even (L) clicks which have supposedly max QR, so max CoS, are entirely unpredictable. Can be literally anything from 12% to 75%, which kind of screws the whole initial motivation of (L) clicks.

Even worse that it show a success rate of 95% but this 95% include the 90%+ near success that in fact are failures, at least for me.

I have had a nice L BP with 20 clicks to craft Quad Wing.
I did the calculation and it looked fairly good to make profit out of it, just need 6 success using residue and selling at actual MU to break even.
So I did that 20 clicks 95% success rate, enough residue to get 10 full TT Quads (I have had hope for nice profit xD)

But the reallity was, 1 damn Quad and the rest lots of near success that in fact is a failure, too.
 
Even worse that it show a success rate of 95% but this 95% include the 90%+ near success that in fact are failures, at least for me.

given that near successes can give back as little as 10% of the costs, you certainly aren't the only one considering them as failures :D
And yes, agreed that the 95% success rate in the crafting window is totally misleading.
 

First of all, 10 mins of your life you wont get back should you decide to watch all of it (I know you wont.)


Second, I am no way qualified to disagree with OP post about mining, but I know it has changed a lot in the past decade sometimes for the better (eg Summon Claim, claims showing on radar etc) and sometimes for the worse.

Thanks for the thread Kerham. :)
 
I have to disagree, from my tracking:
16,3k cycled on hunting: 98,6% return (~12k kills)
41,8k cycled on crafting: 89,11% return (84,9k crafts)
With 92% on crafting i would be fine btw.


Its not the same as hunting, going out killing 10000 of the same mob and getting a half decent return.

With crafting, you are crafting many different tt items, mostly with very few clicks.

What is your tt return on 10000 clicks on a particular item?

Because, if you don't record your tt return per item, rather than overall, you have no idea what is going on. I see this all the time with people.....they make the necessary items to go for HIGH tt click item, bad return on that, and they shout crafting sucks.

Crafting works like every other profession, it is based on % average per click.

If you get a really good >150% tt return on a really low tt item, then no so good return on a HIGH tt cost item, then the maths is skewed. And overall tt returns is disproportional to what is actually happening.

Either way, believe me or not - and i really couldn't care less - but tt returns is still the same across all professions.


Rgds

Ace
 
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Its not the same as hunting, going out killing 10000 of the same mob and getting a half decent return.

With crafting, you are crafting many different tt items, mostly with very few clicks.

What is your tt return on 10000 clicks on a particular item?

Because, if you don't record your tt return per item, rather than overall, you have no idea what is going on. I see this all the time with people.....they make the necessary items to go for HIGH tt click item, bad return on that, and they shout crafting sucks.

Crafting works like every other profession, it is based on % average per click.

If you get a really good >150% tt return on a really low tt item, then no so good return on a HIGH tt cost item, then the maths is skewed. And overall tt returns is disproportional to what is actually happening.

Either way, believe me or not - and i really couldn't care less - but tt returns is still the same across all professions.


Rgds

Ace

I've tracked more than just per item, i've even tracked multiplier chances.

The issue is this:
- they've nerfed the general non-multiplied TT-return
- they've drastically nerfed the chance for times 40 multiplier
- they've slightly boosted the chance for times 10, times 15 multiplier

Hunting got bonus-loot to compensate for the general non-multiplied TT-return nerf and the nerf of the chance for times 40 multiplier.
Crafting and mining didn't get bonus-loot, you must get those times 100, 200, 500, 1000 and 3000 multipliers to get good returns.
I've did a crafting run the other day, 280 clicks, 2x times 10 multi and a times 30 multi, that's as good as it can get on such a small click amount in regards to multiplier amount, yet only 90,13% return..
without those 3 multipliers it would have been ~80% return.
Even my most clicked QR 100 BP has only 88,25% return after 7626 clicks (this is my smallest craft btw)

and something like times 100 every 600 clicks or so to get to good return is just not going to happen.
The multipliers are just too small atm or respectively the general non-multiplied TT-return is too low.
 
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- Maybe implement a pet specific for mining, with no buff, thank you very much. It should be an alternative to extractor and of course to not be spawnable in lootable pvp. It should start with an economy comparable to re-105 and progress with leveling (leveling itself from extracting) to be comparable with 05/sga for example, to keep intact special excavators like adj, imp and mod. It should be obtainable through some middle difficulty mission accesible ingame at lvl30 prospecting/surveying/treasure or buyable from webshop but activable at, say, lvl15. The two versions should have different colours but same functionality. The decay should be paid via feeding and consumed per excavation. Ideally it should have some of that Project Entropia revolting humour (which disappeared with the new Barbie CryEngine world). Maybe a histerical small steam-punk machinery who would complain when extracting lyst. It should function offline too, sort of "tower", with programable time and decay paid in advance, for those pesky high tt lyst claims. Decay should be paid in a role-play manner, by giving ingots to the bugger, nomatter the ore or enmatter, just the tt to count as measure. The drawback should be that its function would not give extracting skills to the owner.
If they are going to do anything like that ever, they should allow 'regular' pets that exist currently to exist in game when avatar is logged out too... At least let em spawn in an apartment and pick up passive experience for leveling when avatar logs out, etc. Don't allow 'tricks' to be done though... since they are useless if concentration isn't up... which is why I'm not sure that this idea would work at all as it'd basically require your miner pet idea to trick all the time while avatar is offline?... Would you really want a pet doing your mining and costing you a fortune with tons and tons of nrfs because he didn't 'concentrate' enough on what he was doing?

We just need a economy driven by crafting.

Weapons should be all L and crafted
Consumables like pills should be crafted
Tools should be crafted
Beside Explo there should be special ammo for special weapons all crafted
Armors should be L and crafted
And all the worshipers of Lootius cried a resounding AMEN (let it be so)!

Move the damn strongboxes back out to the webshop, and move all other junk from in the webshop in game... hell even move the pets from webshop and put them in an craftable instance in game. Annoying as hell looting a kitty again and again from the boxes. Leave the UL rings out there in the boxes, but move the L rings in game... remove the boxes from in game unless you make the looted in game versions not require a key... or the key be craftable in game in some simple way... or at the very minimum sell the keys on webshop in one at a time instead of minimum of 5... makes it annoying when you only loot one - four boxes...

When folks feel like looting a box makes them feel down or blue, worse than looting regular ammo used to feel (or like miners feel when they hit lyst or oil only perhaps), that's a pretty good sign that the way it is currently is sad... and needs to be fixed, sooner rather than later preferably... (at least before the next major event for boxes comes up (Easter I'm guessing?))
 
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If they are going to do anything like that ever, they should allow 'regular' pets that exist currently to exist in game when avatar is logged out too... At least let em spawn in an apartment and pick up passive experience for leveling when avatar logs out, etc. Don't allow 'tricks' to be done though... since they are useless if concentration isn't up... which is why I'm not sure that this idea would work at all as it'd basically require your miner pet idea to trick all the time while avatar is offline?... Would you really want a pet doing your mining and costing you a fortune with tons and tons of nrfs because he didn't 'concentrate' enough on what he was doing?

The funny thing is that there are a lot of miner “bots” in game already
 
No, I meant the pet to extract only, when you have some higher hof of oil or lyst. With tt excavator, 1k ped of lyst is +-5,5 hours.
 
No, I meant the pet to extract only, when you have some higher hof of oil or lyst. With tt excavator, 1k ped of lyst is +-5,5 hours.

I wonder if it would be better to alter it so a tower comes not on ped value but on number of extractions. so a lyst might tower at 500 but iron at 2k (examples, i didn't check the values)
 
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No, I meant the pet to extract only, when you have some higher hof of oil or lyst. With tt excavator, 1k ped of lyst is +-5,5 hours.

You know that there is other excavators that are slighly faster than the TT one?
:scratch2:
 
You know that there is other excavators that are slighly faster than the TT one?
:scratch2:

Oh god let's not open that can of worms....

It's hard enough to break 90% return when mining. Some of those faster extractors can decay 1-2 pecs a pull (3-6x the cost of the TT one) and they don't really pull up that much more than the TT one. Works out to just charging you an extra fee on your claim just to dig it up a tad faster.

Earth Excavator ME/01 - Efficency/sec = 2.15 at a cost of 0.3 pec
Genesis Star Excavator Modified - Efficency/sec = 9.36 at a cost of 3.212 pec

in other words you can get 4.35x the dig speed for 10.7x the cost! (plus the 2500+ ped overhead of buying the extractor) yippee!
 
You know that there is other excavators that are slighly faster than the TT one?
:scratch2:

Just check the price / pull and flush them in the toilet .
 
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No, the big problem with crafting is this BS success rate.

574367-1518888510.jpg


65,2% TT-return, no further comment needed i suppose.

Edit: my suggestion ticket to MA:

"Hey, i just did a 187 craft crafting run and i did get only 65,2% TT-return, which is just frigging robbing!

please change the near successes/success to net something like this:
10-100 crafts > at least 80% TT-return
101-250 crafts > at least 85% TT-return
251-500 crafts > at least 90% TT-return
501+ crafts > at least 93% TT-return

To cover the gap from those 93% to your target return should take a larger than 1000 clicks amount, however those above returns should be the minimum. Something like 65,2% TT-return in a 187 craft run is just unacceptable and robbing..."

I hope they fix the crafting soon ><
 
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574367-1518888510.jpg


65,2% TT-return, no further comment needed i suppose.

Edit: my suggestion ticket to MA:

"Hey, i just did a 187 craft crafting run and i did get only 65,2% TT-return, which is just frigging robbing!

please change the near successes/success to net something like this:
10-100 crafts > at least 80% TT-return
101-250 crafts > at least 85% TT-return
251-500 crafts > at least 90% TT-return
501+ crafts > at least 93% TT-return

To cover the gap from those 93% to your target return should take a larger than 1000 clicks amount, however those above returns should be the minimum. Something like 65,2% TT-return in a 187 craft run is just unacceptable and robbing..."

I hope they fix the crafting soon ><

u are funny 50% return on small runs is a thing since 2004 lol
 
u are funny 50% return on small runs is a thing since 2004 lol

small runs are like 10-20 clicks, there i can understand such low returns.
it's the first time that i've seen such low return on a 187 click run, it's my 4th year in crafting btw ;)
Crafting just got worse with loot 2.1 or whatever version we're currently in.

Although, 1 exception is there, full condition being 50% on such a click amount, but that run wasn't condition, it was quantity ;)
 
1 - Statment if skills are useless or even play a role in loot distribution , i mean direct not indirect with tool you can pick (i any case i accepty risk be invest alot share my profits on it , if you say useless okay i deal with)

2 - Decay is pure waste or returned in some form in you loot? i stopped use high decay finders in 2.0

3 - Where new finders and excavator to high level like me rank 80 prospector?

4 - Why make high end
finders so hard to craft? to generate demand? whats demand if none can loot BP and craft
like roctec cougr , its my favorite but since for ND mistake or you mistake not dropanymore comp to craft...

5 - Some sort to see whats good finder and bad finder....
Like efficency you did in guns and screw up if you puts UL gear is superior L gear you kill even more crafters/miner relationship
 
1 - Statment if skills are useless or even play a role in loot distribution , i mean direct not indirect with tool you can pick (i any case i accepty risk be invest alot share my profits on it , if you say useless okay i deal with)

2 - Decay is pure waste or returned in some form in you loot? i stopped use high decay finders in 2.0

3 - Where new finders and excavator to high level like me rank 80 prospector?

4 - Why make high end
finders so hard to craft? to generate demand? whats demand if none can loot BP and craft
like roctec cougr , its my favorite but since for ND mistake or you mistake not dropanymore comp to craft...

5 - Some sort to see whats good finder and bad finder....
Like efficency you did in guns and screw up if you puts UL gear is superior L gear you kill even more crafters/miner relationship

I do see a contradiction here.

Why use the roctec finders with that high decay?

This is what I tested :

With the Terramaster 7 (L) (average 125,20%) + amp 2 a drop would cost 7,199 pec
Average depth 924,4 Claims found between 724,4 - 1124,4

With the Roctec M1-LF (L) (average 262,22%) a drop would cost 6,29328 pec
Average depth 900 Claims found between 700-1100

With the Terramaster 3 GR (UNL) + amp 2 + 6 enhancers (bought @ 210%) a drop would cost 4,725 pec + average cost for enhancers a drop would cost 4,773235 pec
Average depth 631,8 Claims found between 600 - 1350

With the F-106 (UNL) + amp 2 + 8 depth enhancers (bought @ 210%) a drop would cost 3,229 pec + average cost for enhancers a drop would cost 3,277235 pec
Average depth 582,1 Claims found between 600 - 1350

If your not using depth enhancers you will find claims out of the -200 / +200 range of the finder but a lot less.

So here it all depends how many depth enhancers would break.

So far after counting peds used (12126.5 ped) in probes and costs of depth enhancers each drop would cost (for the F-106) 0,048235 ped / drop

The UNL finders are way more cheaper to use than the L finders.

Some crafters have the BP's to craft F-105 and/or F-106, the only thing they need is dunkel ..... and would you craft or buy it when the dunkel only costs +8000%? (and prolly with a low QR BP?)
 
With preamped finders you must also take in account the decay (and MU of finder) per ped dropped. Many preamped finders are just as good or at least comparable to F-21x series or F-10x series. The problem with preamped finders is that there is not enough crafting market to absorb the resources.

Like... one of the ziplex from the mining strongboxes has 17 (seventeen) ped per drop for ores. And is maxed at lvl 15... What's the point for that, other than stimulating even more gambling addicts, whom to destroy even more resources MU?
 
I do see a contradiction here.

Why use the roctec finders with that high decay?

This is what I tested :

With the Terramaster 7 (L) (average 125,20%) + amp 2 a drop would cost 7,199 pec
Average depth 924,4 Claims found between 724,4 - 1124,4

With the Roctec M1-LF (L) (average 262,22%) a drop would cost 6,29328 pec
Average depth 900 Claims found between 700-1100

With the Terramaster 3 GR (UNL) + amp 2 + 6 enhancers (bought @ 210%) a drop would cost 4,725 pec + average cost for enhancers a drop would cost 4,773235 pec
Average depth 631,8 Claims found between 600 - 1350

With the F-106 (UNL) + amp 2 + 8 depth enhancers (bought @ 210%) a drop would cost 3,229 pec + average cost for enhancers a drop would cost 3,277235 pec
Average depth 582,1 Claims found between 600 - 1350

If your not using depth enhancers you will find claims out of the -200 / +200 range of the finder but a lot less.

So here it all depends how many depth enhancers would break.

So far after counting peds used (12126.5 ped) in probes and costs of depth enhancers each drop would cost (for the F-106) 0,048235 ped / drop

The UNL finders are way more cheaper to use than the L finders.

Some crafters have the BP's to craft F-105 and/or F-106, the only thing they need is dunkel ..... and would you craft or buy it when the dunkel only costs +8000%? (and prolly with a low QR BP?)

You will find many miners prefer preamped finders over enhancers. Not all miners like enhancers i guess it comes down to them being unpredictable. I remember when i got into mining a few years back a couple of big miners said they dont like them. I dont use them my selfs and i like pre-amps, but i dont keep records of my findings and i do ok.

The reason i pushed ND for a good couple of years to create Rt finders was that i hated buying finders from Caly, just to mine on RT. The RT finders was to help miners and crafters build the bridge between 2 professions. This is what most miners want to be able sell their goods to crafters.

There is still many ores and enmatters that have good mu, but you got to watch the AH as theses can go down or rise alot. Players them selves are their own worst enemy as some will sell cheap to re sellers to get quick turn around and then slowly mu drops even more. This is not always down to supply and demand, but to impatience of players.
 
Indeed , i hate any kind enhancer i find complety useless

You keep saying use amp or go indoor or both is gamble
you are fuck wrong man,,, gamble is pick lvl13 with 140% mu and go minning
but if you pick lvl5 - 103% or d-class 105/106% put in pre amped finders reduce even more
is called increase cycle , spend less time in game , get more skills per hour , generate if you are good more profit and plus more mission point

About finders... i have MD-50 and F-106 UL but since 2014 i use L ones
Depth this day dont mean much... you need exact depth in y area to get better avg mu
atm test C50 again in fews areas , people call me crazy because only 280 avg/depth , all i said i dont need more to area i minning actual

You are good unampend miner , remid me fews year ago but you still far way min/max efficiency
have fun years in research and develop
 
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Some do not even formulate the choice this way. I for one use enhancers only on UL.


And this is why i said in leelos help with mining thread

I think this is very good post for anyone interested in mining. I don't agree with everything, but i believe that each player finds their own way to play. Its up to each individual to find what works for them.
 
Thank you for the feedback Bigdaddy :)

I explained the differents about L and UNL a bit so I hope it's more objective.

Just let me know if this is better or not :p
 
Indeed , i hate any kind enhancer i find complety useless

You keep saying use amp or go indoor or both is gamble
you are fuck wrong man,,, gamble is pick lvl13 with 140% mu and go minning
but if you pick lvl5 - 103% or d-class 105/106% put in pre amped finders reduce even more
is called increase cycle , spend less time in game , get more skills per hour , generate if you are good more profit and plus more mission point

About finders... i have MD-50 and F-106 UL but since 2014 i use L ones
Depth this day dont mean much... you need exact depth in y area to get better avg mu
atm test C50 again in fews areas , people call me crazy because only 280 avg/depth , all i said i dont need more to area i minning actual

You are good unampend miner , remid me fews year ago but you still far way min/max efficiency
have fun years in research and develop

Thank you for reply :)

I'm also using less deeper finders on certain zones to check returns and best depth for a certain resource

Even when enhancers break less on UNL finders, a big run (600-1K) can still get expensive when they start breaking.

I know cycling but I dont do that for a couple of reasons.
1 ) I can play all day and night (just need a bit of sleep) :p
2 ) I dont need big/huge badge of resources, I only need to keep my shop filled, have stuff for crafters and the rest I sell on auc in small quantities.
3 ) I'm already very pleased with the profits I make now and happy to see my stock growing.
4 ) I'm not after towers nor ATH's, I'm only here for fun and cause I like mining (doesn't mean 1 isn't welcome lol)
5 ) I dont need more skills when using UNL finders
6 ) No need for depo's :)
 
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