Menu
What's New
By:
Filters

Remember when loot 2.0 first came out and the questions about over-kill ?

C

CozMoDan

Elite
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Posts
4,767
Location
Arizona
Avatar Name
Herco Coz Mann
MA stated that overkill on a mob will cost you ped and as I recall they said it was around 7% I think. Anyway the question was asked about critical hits and how would that affect the loot. MA said that crit-hits were not used to calculate loot is was like a non-event as I recall. It does not count against you in loot because of the overkill.

It another post (which I can't find right now) a player stated that crit-hits do effect loot and went on with some very outrageous claims. I won't go into them but I though I would just start watching the loot and see for myself. I am about 100 runs into the watching and found some things very interesting. First off let me tell this is only on punys around Icarus second on the each run I kill about 250-300 mobs. What I found was at lease 90% (probably more) of the time I got 1 pec in loot(which is a loss of about 4 pecs on the kill) another 5% was 2-3 pecs when there was crit-hit on the mob, moreover I have not got a global on any mob where there was a crit-hit on the mob. Even if I am wrong about the percentages it is still way more than random and I am not wrong about the globals.

One thing I also thought about is it would not be obvious when hunting bigger mobs because of the amount of loot involved. It would be hard to tell if you got shorted a couple of ped when normal loot is several ped or for that matter 90 pec and you get 70 pec instead of 90.

I am not sure if we are on a new loot version and something has changed but i am sure it is not what was originally stated by MA about crit-hits in loot 2.0.
 
im not sure I'm totally understanding what you are saying. correct me if I am wrong. You are stating that 90% of the time u land a critical hit, u receive 1pec loot? and 5% of the time u are getting 2-3pec?

and does a crit hit mean you are 1 shotting the mob?
 
CozMoDan said:
MA stated that overkill on a mob will cost you ped and as I recall they said it was around 7% I think. Anyway the question was asked about critical hits and how would that affect the loot. MA said that crit-hits were not used to calculate loot is was like a non-event as I recall. It does not count against you in loot because of the overkill.
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood the posts and should probably re-read them:

Developer Notes #11 - Loot 2.0

Developer Notes #12 - Loot 2.0 Follow-Up

They did not state overkill on a mob will cost you ped... They mentioned it as a factor which would work against the "Optimalness", referring to Loot Composition.

The 7% thing is regarding Efficiency's effect on long term average return rate, the difference between hunting with a theoretical 0% Efficiency item and a theoretical 100% Efficiency item being 7%. (i.e 93.00% return rate vs 100.00% return rate over 100 billion mobs killed)

In regards to the exact numbers or whether or not this 7% scaling based on Efficiency is linear they did not say, but from what I've heard from most players who have been tracking closely on Loot 2.0, it seems to me as though the scaling *is* linear, and that the average long term return rate varies likely either between 92% to 99% or from 91.5% to 98.5%, though it could be higher or lower.

As for as Critical Hits, they affect DPP but not Efficiency, meaning that they can improve Loot Composition based on these established rules if they result in a lower cost to kill, as lower kill costs result in better Loot Composition, overkill generated by Critical Hits is irrelevant, just as normal overkill is, the important factors in how loot is generated in terms of return rate is *Efficiency* and *Cost*.
 
Globals happen less frequently on punies than they do on other mobs.
A puny is 5 pec to kill on average, their min return to global is 5ped, so when you global you are getting around a 100x multi.
I can go hunt a 1ped to kill mob, its min return for a global is 50ped...i only need a 50x multi.
I can go hunt a 2ped mob to kill, same min return for global of 50ped, only need a 25x multi.

If you want to test anything relating to globals, don't test on punies.

And as Darkaruki said, you mis-read about overkill
 
thee pepe said:
im not sure I'm totally understanding what you are saying. correct me if I am wrong. You are stating that 90% of the time u land a critical hit, u receive 1pec loot? and 5% of the time u are getting 2-3pec?

and does a crit hit mean you are 1 shotting the mob?
Click to expand...

"You are stating that 90% of the time u land a critical hit, u receive 1pec loot?" Yes I get 1 pec.

"5% of the time u are getting 2-3pec?" Sorry, yes I get 2-3 pec On a Crit-Hit.

So i am saying that 95% of the time with crit-hit I get 1-3 pec but the great majority of that time, with crit-hit, I get only 1 pec.

Hope that makes more sense.
 
Darkaruki said:
I think you misunderstood the posts and should probably re-read them:

Developer Notes #11 - Loot 2.0

Developer Notes #12 - Loot 2.0 Follow-Up

They did not state overkill on a mob will cost you ped... They mentioned it as a factor which would work against the "Optimalness", referring to Loot Composition.

The 7% thing is regarding Efficiency's effect on long term average return rate, the difference between hunting with a theoretical 0% Efficiency item and a theoretical 100% Efficiency item being 7%. (i.e 93.00% return rate vs 100.00% return rate over 100 billion mobs killed)

In regards to the exact numbers or whether or not this 7% scaling based on Efficiency is linear they did not say, but from what I've heard from most players who have been tracking closely on Loot 2.0, it seems to me as though the scaling *is* linear, and that the average long term return rate varies likely either between 92% to 99% or from 91.5% to 98.5%, though it could be higher or lower.

As for as Critical Hits, they affect DPP but not Efficiency, meaning that they can improve Loot Composition based on these established rules if they result in a lower cost to kill, as lower kill costs result in better Loot Composition, overkill generated by Critical Hits is irrelevant, just as normal overkill is, the important factors in how loot is generated in terms of return rate is *Efficiency* and *Cost*.
Click to expand...

This is the statement I was trying to remember and I am saying that I have not found that to be true because 90%+ of time I am getting 1 pec with the crit-hit and without the crit-hit my loot is almost always more the 1 pec. I am saying a critical hit is relevant and reduces that amount of looking for whatever reason.
 
Darth Revan said:
Globals happen less frequently on punies than they do on other mobs.
A puny is 5 pec to kill on average, their min return to global is 5ped, so when you global you are getting around a 100x multi.
I can go hunt a 1ped to kill mob, its min return for a global is 50ped...i only need a 50x multi.
I can go hunt a 2ped mob to kill, same min return for global of 50ped, only need a 25x multi.

If you want to test anything relating to globals, don't test on punies.

And as Darkaruki said, you mis-read about overkill
Click to expand...

I am not sure what you are saying I don't want to test anything about globals. I merely mentioned the globals as further proof of the effect critical hit on loot. I am well aware of the rarity of globals, I have 1380 runs and 76 globals and considering I kill between 250-300 mobs per run that's a lot of mobs for so few globals. So go hunt what you want:)
 
CozMoDan said:
I merely mentioned the globals as further proof of the effect critical hit on loot.
Click to expand...

Well your saying that you never global on punies when you crit....however you can't apply that same logic to other mobs. On higher cost to kill mobs, you can crit a few times and still global. You should just keep the fact about globalling out of your statement altogether then instead of trying to use that to help your claim.

Regarding how returns work, the more tt input the higher the return you will have in general. It will not be 100% of the time but then you will also get the "bonus shrap loot" come around to help balance you out. So when you crit, you have less tt input, so in general a lower tt return. Of course you will notice this more on punies because they have a low cost to kill and their returns cannot be seperated out as much. If you spend 5pec to kill, you will always get atleast 1/5th back. On higher cost to kill mobs you may get something like 1/16th back...so using punies isn't exactly a great way to test...besides from keeping your cost to a minimum.

MA do not use your crit hits to determine loot tt returns, they do use your tt input....which happen to coincide....but more so for punies because generally a crit means you one-shot them.

If you want a way to test this, go get a swine deluxe (45pec per use) and go puny hunting.....see if your 1 shots and crits give you only 1 pec loot 90% of the time...you will be quite surprised.
 
said it once, will say it again, your returns will likely be better due to markup on pleaks instead of if you keep pestering the punys on Calypso. ;)

(I think the wings are auctionable while the bones are not)

Also, have you tested any buffing effects? Many moons ago when I was hitting Icarus hard I recall that when I buffed up with pills and whatnot it would cause returns to be slightly better. I suspect it was like that because I was hitting the 'good non shrapnel' loot before others due to the buffs, but not sure if that was really what happened or it was just imaginations.

Not sure if Stamina or Agility are more worthwhile to go after in resource gathering?... suspect there's a market for both. Could be interesting if Cyrene makes the last stage of the pleak mission chain repeatable, as was recently hinted at in a thread over on their forum somewhere...

http://planetcyrene.entropiawiki.com/Info.aspx?chart=Mission&name=Rare_Pleak_Wings_for_Ben_Keery
Turn in 10000 Rare Pleak Wings
Reward: 100 Stamina Tokens
Click to expand...

http://www.entropiawiki.com/Info.aspx?chart=Mission&name=I've_got_a_bone_to_pick!
Collect 10k Calypso Bone Samples
Repeatable: No
Reward: 100 Agility Tokens
Click to expand...

I don't think it would be an issue to adjust the final stage to a repeatable mission.

Ideally, more inexperienced players would do these missions, and the higher level players would purchase the Pleak Wings from them, rather than the high level players spending time farming these weak mobs themselves.

That being said I don't think anyone wouldn't benefit from the final stage being repateable.
...
Cheers,
Kris
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
CozMoDan said:
First off let me tell this is only on punys around Icarus second on the each run I kill about 250-300 mobs. What I found was at lease 90% (probably more) of the time I got 1 pec in loot(which is a loss of about 4 pecs on the kill)
Click to expand...

10 HP puny mob, just cost 4 pec to kill with 2.5 dpp (which is not the best), how can you lose 4 pec when you get 1 pec in loot ?
Try some better eco :)
:scratch2:
 
Darth Revan said:
Well your saying that you never global on punies when you crit....however you can't apply that same logic to other mobs. On higher cost to kill mobs, you can crit a few times and still global. You should just keep the fact about globalling out of your statement altogether then instead of trying to use that to help your claim.

Regarding how returns work, the more tt input the higher the return you will have in general. It will not be 100% of the time but then you will also get the "bonus shrap loot" come around to help balance you out. So when you crit, you have less tt input, so in general a lower tt return. Of course you will notice this more on punies because they have a low cost to kill and their returns cannot be seperated out as much. If you spend 5pec to kill, you will always get atleast 1/5th back. On higher cost to kill mobs you may get something like 1/16th back...so using punies isn't exactly a great way to test...besides from keeping your cost to a minimum.

MA do not use your crit hits to determine loot tt returns, they do use your tt input....which happen to coincide....but more so for punies because generally a crit means you one-shot them.

If you want a way to test this, go get a swine deluxe (45pec per use) and go puny hunting.....see if your 1 shots and crits give you only 1 pec loot 90% of the time...you will be quite surprised.
Click to expand...

Sorry but I can't answer to any of this because you have no idea what I am trying to say.
 
GoNi said:
10 HP puny mob, just cost 4 pec to kill with 2.5 dpp (which is not the best), how can you lose 4 pec when you get 1 pec in loot ?
Try some better eco :)
:scratch2:
Click to expand...

Are you kidding show me the weapon that gets the max damage on each shot and no misses. I am around 500K of puntys and I am fairly sure I know what it cost me to kill one with a tt pistol. And BTW you can get shrapnel with zero pecs which means it was less than 1 pec.
 
The OP was making a statement of what I observed nothing more. Everyone seems to think I am trying to suggest something about globals or other mobs or whatever and I am not. I merely stated that I think crit-hits have a neg effect on puny loot that's all, period

MOD please close this thread as it is going nowhere.
 
Since loot 2.0 was introduced I did see that every time I crit a mob,i get lower return then when not critting...
About loot,they changed something recently...after 2700 peds cycled on argo,molisk,hadraada and tiarak,i'm sitting on 91% return...this might sound nice,BUT it's not,because after I sell everything i will still be down 120 peds.
So with gear at 65% eff and 2.97 DPP i'm worse then I was a year ago,when I was hunting with 2.8 DPP
When it comes to multipliers....a few 6-9 pedders,just 5 globals and just 2 profitable runs in 11...i get +15 peds on a good run and -30 on the bad ones...so on approx 100 HP mobs getting a global is insanly hard
But maybe i'm just very unlucky :))))
 
Elmurfud said:
Since loot 2.0 was introduced I did see that every time I crit a mob,i get lower return then when not critting...
About loot,they changed something recently...after 2700 peds cycled on argo,molisk,hadraada and tiarak,i'm sitting on 91% return...this might sound nice,BUT it's not,because after I sell everything i will still be down 120 peds.
So with gear at 65% eff and 2.97 DPP i'm worse then I was a year ago,when I was hunting with 2.8 DPP
When it comes to multipliers....a few 6-9 pedders,just 5 globals and just 2 profitable runs in 11...i get +15 peds on a good run and -30 on the bad ones...so on approx 100 HP mobs getting a global is insanly hard
But maybe i'm just very unlucky :))))
Click to expand...

By eyeballing, i'd say they replaced the times 200, times 500, times 1000 multiplier by a times 3000 multiplier recently. This means your general return will be worse untill you get that very big multiplier, once you get it you should jump to 95+ return.
Since this very big multiplier is very rare better expect to hang around at ~91% return for a "while" ^^
 
And,as usual,after you hunt a few k mobs with those very small multipliers,someone else comes along and hits the 3000 multiplier...EU at its finnest :)
 
Hey Coz, I'm just wondering 2 things...

1. Are you 1 shotting with a crit to get this 1 pec loot (your only shot is a crit)?

2. You mentioned you can get sub 1 pec loot via shrapnel... Are you not getting anything else on that particular loot? Afaik the system is still unable to pay out less than 1 pec... I have seen the less than 1 pec shrapnel many times before but it has always accompanied some other small loot (in which the total was always seemingly at least just over a pec)

Thanks for the info
 
Im surprised that obviously everyone who answered up until now have forgotten what we already found out when loot 2.0 was implemented AND what MA even stated themselves.
Ill give you a brief summary:

Loot is COMPLETELY tied to the COST TO KILL. Now if you kill a mob that normally needs 4 hits to die in 2 hits due to crits then your expected loot outcome is half of what it usually would be as you only needed half the cost to kill.
when you have "bad luck" on the mob and miss a few times and end up needing 8 shots for it to die your expected loot outcome will be double of what it normally would be.

thats the whole secret. easy as that. and it has been pointed out dozens of times already, proven with tests and even stated by MA...
 
Stefan 008 Bond said:
Hey Coz, I'm just wondering 2 things...

1. Are you 1 shotting with a crit to get this 1 pec loot (your only shot is a crit)?

2. You mentioned you can get sub 1 pec loot via shrapnel... Are you not getting anything else on that particular loot? Afaik the system is still unable to pay out less than 1 pec... I have seen the less than 1 pec shrapnel many times before but it has always accompanied some other small loot (in which the total was always seemingly at least just over a pec)

Thanks for the info
Click to expand...

1. Just wondering why you would think that?? I already stated the it takes me an average of 5 shots to kill a puny.

2. No I have got just a single loot of less than 1 pec in shrapnel.
 
Loot = cost to kill and comes back in set multis so something like 0.33% of cost/0.5%/0.75%/100%/200%/2000% etc so when you crit its cost less to kill a mob so you get lesss back (number) but not less % back. In theory you should get slightly better loot composition with crits assuming your gear and dps matches up with mob but not by a % noticeable over small test sizes/casual tests.
 
BigPimping said:
Loot = cost to kill and comes back in set multis so something like 0.33% of cost/0.5%/0.75%/100%/200%/2000% etc so when you crit its cost less to kill a mob so you get lesss back (number) but not less % back. In theory you should get slightly better loot composition with crits assuming your gear and dps matches up with mob but not by a % noticeable over small test sizes/casual tests.
Click to expand...

And you would know this how?
 
BigPimping said:
Testing myself, from other peoples testing data, reading, playing game.
Click to expand...

Me Really Never said:
check my last post ...
Click to expand...

Ah-ha so the both of you just figure you know either by what has happen to you or what MA says. Not to be rude but my experience says no and I figure my experiences are just as good as yours and we all know that MA is completely trust worthy when they say something.
 
So u're about to ignore everyone else's opinion (Ma dev notes, mod notes, experienced players remarks) just because your "recent experience" says so?
 
CozMoDan said:
Ah-ha so the both of you just figure you know either by what has happen to you or what MA says. Not to be rude but my experience says no and I figure my experiences are just as good as yours and we all know that MA is completely trust worthy when they say something.
Click to expand...

not sure if trolling :scratch2: ive tested over couple 100k ped cycled, and pretty much all they said in dev notes is accurate. But ofc your hundred runs on punys with data such as " What I found was at lease 90% (probably more) of the time I got 1 pec in loot" is more accurate its harder to get global on crit because you need a bigger multi to hit it, cus it cost you less to kill the mob :scratch2: its pretty easy to work that out no?

And also you get 1pec loot on crits cus it costs you closer to 2-3 the kill the mob not 4...and pec isnt always 1pec sometimes its 1.43434 etc
 
CozMoDan said:
Ah-ha so the both of you just figure you know either by what has happen to you or what MA says. Not to be rude but my experience says no and I figure my experiences are just as good as yours and we all know that MA is completely trust worthy when they say something.
Click to expand...

dude i dont know if you are just stupid or if its the language barrier but i fucking explained to you YOUR OWN fucking observation. The things i explained explain what you have observed all by yourself... jesus christ. people get so fucking stupid when they want to antagonize someone... just get over yourself and accept it.
 
stc44 said:
So u're about to ignore everyone else's opinion (Ma dev notes, mod notes, experienced players remarks) just because your "recent experience" says so?
Click to expand...

Seems everyone else does why not ?? Or is it just special people.
 
BigPimping said:
not sure if trolling :scratch2: ive tested over couple 100k ped cycled, and pretty much all they said in dev notes is accurate. But ofc your hundred runs on punys with data such as " What I found was at lease 90% (probably more) of the time I got 1 pec in loot" is more accurate its harder to get global on crit because you need a bigger multi to hit it, cus it cost you less to kill the mob :scratch2: its pretty easy to work that out no?

And also you get 1pec loot on crits cus it costs you closer to 2-3 the kill the mob not 4...and pec isnt always 1pec sometimes its 1.43434 etc
Click to expand...

How about you unlock your tracker so all can see the 100K ??
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top