Tutorial: How to make a fair event!

There have been tons of events in EU, all with their own kinds of hardships:

Problems:

1 - Trusting the Event, and Favoritism.
For one, I remember the days when influential high-gear avatars, with real life connections, used to be at the right time, at the right place. There are many stories about this, including looting real uber items.
Another problem with trusting the current events, is the way tokens, points, or whatever they are called, are distributed. They seem random, but real randomness is really hard to achieve in programming. Patterns often emerge. As some have pointed out, and to my own experience, the second you enter an instance, your loot is more or less pre-determined. This can lead to people, with inside info, knowing when to go for the big points, or looking for signs, whether they are in an awesome instance or not.

I don't believe in the 'luck' factor of this event, of getting a 5k. Especially with too many exploits. I do believe in working your way up in EU, one way or the other, and being able to do some damage.

2 - Prize Distribution
In what way is it fair, that when working all year to skill up, getting to the next category and becoming a higher player, you'll probably get less prize money?
Imagine being able to score nr1 in cat8, skilling up, and then getting 9th in cat9. You're better, pay/play more, but u get less!

3 - New Game Mechanics
Can we PLEASE not have new game mechanics introduced on the very last day before events? This is ASKING for trouble. If you wish to introduce new stuff like timers and such, awesome! How about a TEST event with some funny price, so that possible exploits can be found BEFORE the actual event? (with small rewards for those who find any))

4 - Participation Motivation
All the above, and only prizes for the happy few at the top in their resp. cat., is not motivating the larger community to participate and generate MA turnover. The more participation and motivation, the more players will be happy, and MA as well. Make this a win-win situation!


Solutions

1 - Event Parameters
Set the event parameters, such as stay long in the defense, or score in the offense.
The offense should not be based on 'lucky points', but on total mobs killed. This is fair and straight. 'Lucky' points can be tampered with. I'm not saying that they are, but straight points give trust.

Why would one go all-in and use expensive items such as Accustim 15's, when the points are semi luck-based, and people find the 5k's with possible exploits? It is ONLY when it is clear, that higher dps gives more kills/points, that people will go all-in. (and spend more)

Following this, working your way up the hunter ladder, will help and motivate, instead of chipping out to fall in a LOWER category and get HIGHER prizes. Where's the logic in that?


2 - Event prizes
ONE list of event participants.

MA determines how many mayhem tokens are to be distributed.
If there are 503 participants, then 503 ppl will get prize money.
Distribute the mayhem tokens PROPORTIONAL to the number of points.
Fair! You get what you shoot for. Work your way to the top!

What's the use of being nr1 in cat4? That's no real nr1. Isn't it more exciting to be nr 61, and being nr 59 the next year? Investing time and peds to get better at this?

On top of that MA can of course add some extras, like UL or L items, fixed to certain positions, or other.
However, That is actually not necessary, when the actual prizes can be bought with the mayhem tokens. I find the invention of mayhem tokens to buy faps weapons etc, quite ingenious.

3 - One level of instance
No categories. However inside the the instance you can choose between a number of mobs like in the old mayhem event, Kerbs and Spiders or what was it? For instance 5 mobs, different difficulties, each mob gives 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 points, according to its difficulty. Or maybe the mobs give points according to there level, as in L32 Eviscerator gives 32 points.

This way people can try out more difficult mobs, and decide to improve/raise their gameplay. As it is today there is no motivation to gear up, since being low in the next category, is actually paying less then being top in a lower category. Therefore the category system is flawed, because it stops people from skilling/upgrading,...


Other thoughts
This system would motivate all people who wish to participate and do not fall into the top10 of a category, and then some more. I'm quite sure it would highly increase event activity.
Fairness, Participation, Keep it Simple!

Please feel free to add suggestions, even though I'm not sure MA is interested in this.

Can we PLEASE not have new game mechanics introduced on the very last day before events? This is ASKING for trouble. If you wish to introduce new stuff like timers and such, awesome! How about a TEST event with some funny price, so that possible exploits can be found BEFORE the actual event? (with small rewards for those who find any))

Click to expand...

This
Often wondered why they don't do it...
It could have help to avoid so much cheats and bugs.

Fair events ?
Game mechanics ?

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...3301-Fair-Mayhem-Events&p=3637680#post3637680

I posted this 3 hours before your thread...

If your aim is to achieve a truly fair event, then neither MA or you is hitting it on the head. The idea of different categories based upon profession level is a gigantic step in the right direction. However that alone is still not enough to make it fair. The best way, in my opinion, would be to use the profession restrictions for categories, and combine that with the loadout preset of batsim. Upon accepting the mission, you are given a Mayhem Equipment set. This includes armor, and 1 weapon of each type. Melee’s, Laser’s, BLP’s, Mindforce. That way players are able to decide what weapon they want to use. No rings. No plates. Preset Fap/MF chip. No buffs. No pets. Instead of decay cost, all weapons have an increased ammo cost to compensate. Items cannot be used outside of mayhem. Cannot be traded or sold. Now you have a truly fair playing field that is not based upon a players bankroll, does not screw over the player that just happened to reach the minimum level for his cat and has no hope of competeing against those that are close to max. The problem though, is people don’t actually want a level playing field. The lower leveled or smaller ped card players want the rich high ups to be taken down a notch because let’s face it, not everyone can afford $500 for a fap or $1000 for a set of armor. And those that can want the recognition of being better than those players who are not as financially well off. Unless you are willing to give up the advantage of your bank account, there will never be anything fair about the entropia event system.

Sorry to say but the only case where it is clear that people will go all in is those few that have that gear, in the conditions you want we will be back to where a few rich ubers will win all events again and the rest will maybe hunt for fun.
Many categories and chance to win with some factor of luck is what makes a lot of people participate and that is also what MA will make money on.

Mrs 2.0 said:

Why would one go all-in and use expensive items such as Accustim 15's, when the points are semi luck-based, and people find the 5k's with possible exploits? It is ONLY when it is clear, that higher dps gives more kills/points, that people will go all-in. (and spend more)

Click to expand...

Mrs 2.0 said:

1 - Event Parameters
Set the event parameters, such as stay long in the defense, or score in the offense.
The offense should not be based on 'lucky points', but on total mobs killed. This is fair and straight. 'Lucky' points can be tampered with. I'm not saying that they are, but straight points give trust.

Why would one go all-in and use expensive items such as Accustim 15's, when the points are semi luck-based, and people find the 5k's with possible exploits? It is ONLY when it is clear, that higher dps gives more kills/points, that people will go all-in. (and spend more)

Following this, working your way up the hunter ladder, will help and motivate, instead of chipping out to fall in a LOWER category and get HIGHER prizes. Where's the logic in that?

Click to expand...

And then we are back to the days where highest DPS simply win everything and the complaining about that will start again. Remember the years when THE "Terminator" simply won everything and all complained about the give aways to its owner?

The distribution of score points by loot items, how it is at the moment isn´t the worst solution.
What I agree is that design of point items is fairly bad, and reduce event to pure luck.
Event tokens like the 5k shouldn´t exist, if it would be in a range of lowest 1 up to lets say 25, would be fair, as DPS still would count but still not 100% win chance.
Beside that every mob in the event instance should hold tokens, at least a 1 point.

Mrs 2.0 said:

3 - One level of instance
No categories. However inside the the instance you can choose between a number of mobs like in the old mayhem event, Kerbs and Spiders or what was it? For instance 5 mobs, different difficulties, each mob gives 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 points, according to its difficulty. Or maybe the mobs give points according to there level, as in L32 Eviscerator gives 32 points.

This way people can try out more difficult mobs, and decide to improve/raise their gameplay. As it is today there is no motivation to gear up, since being low in the next category, is actually paying less then being top in a lower category. Therefore the category system is flawed, because it stops people from skilling/upgrading,...

Click to expand...

The problem with that, it is hard to implement max DMG restrictions if it is only 1 instance for all cats.
So it would be possible to win a cat 1 using a "Terminator", as we have had it in the past, and didn´t like it.

Different Cats in different instances is a fairly good solution. How to assamble the restrictions for each cats is a little difficult, you never can satisfy everyone. Agree its bad for those who get just into next cat, but have no chance there, due to be lowest in that cat.
Solution here, could be chipping out a few points to fall back in lower cat, and chip back after event ended, then you have another few month skilling time untill next event. Sooner or later you will stay in higher cat, as you won´t be lowest there

Mrs 2.0 said:

Other thoughts
This system would motivate all people who wish to participate and do not fall into the top10 of a category, and then some more. I'm quite sure it would highly increase event activity.
Fairness, Participation, Keep it Simple!

Please feel free to add suggestions, even though I'm not sure MA is interested in this.

Click to expand...

Looking at the participants list of the last few years, the event activity is fairly high, much higher than in times when terminatior simply won everything!

Hard to say... the current cathegory system leads to situations like the folloelwing: MindArk rightfully praises Trifle for being the first who achieves excellence in fapping ( ), but at the very next event they punish her by virtually not letting her participate. Paramedic is a combat profession and we all know how you can hit the mobs with your fap until they die.

One thing which should be tweaked is indeed the situation where you upgrade from one cathegory to another.

Also, FFA should come back, but without points. It is obvious that only a few can have a serious chance to win the event. Well then let everyone else enjoy too the whatever special drops of that event. You could still have even Defense FFA, which to give for example a skillgain booost of modest size or some heal/sec, proportional to lvl of mobs and time resisted.

It is very correct that money and effort to give something back. Just keep the current system and add a FFA "out of the competition" so to say. There are plenty of people with a bankroll of 1k or less, who have absolutely no business in being in a cathegory higher than maybe 2. No need to keep out people who only invested in skills but not in setups too. Also no need to make dmg enhancers, pills or high dmg L irrelevant by making someone in rascal win the main course. Also no need to let some packed pilled high dps harvest some low mobs. Just make it so that invested & commited players have a solid reason to join the main event and cathegories and then let the fun available to everyone else but without possibility to win the main event. Simple.

Then, what I would deffinitely want to see changed is the current scaling of tokens and prizes. MindArk likes to talk about "longterm plans". Well, who in their right mind would waste thousands of tokens and a precious P token for that lvl20 rifle? Or, for that matter, for any item under say lvl70-80?

You need a certain number of Mayhems won in order to have access to the required amount of tokens, but then during that time your skill will grow alot. Ordinary skill bonus, iron chains, pills etc. Who the heck would stay 3 years under lvl30 AND have what it takes to win many events?

And that leads us to the actual situation, where you need to buy the item from someone who won the events. Until this moment if I understand correctly only messi and Cerberus can do that, but then there are a few issues:

1. If you can afford to pay the estimated price for respective item then probably you can compete on your own.

2. You have to convince (=pay) the seller not only for the item, but for the cost of opportunity too, for denying self yse of M and P tokens.

3. There is no reason to use those guns (for now) until, again, lvl 70-80. What can you possibly do with a wep lvl20 to 40 to mitigate at least some of the presumably tens of thousands spent? Loot more fine hides? Waw.

4. There is a bit of a trust problem right now. If I am to buy any of those weapons, speaking realistically, I would need to make a credit for 2 to 5 years. That need to be justified. If you are well off IRL and cand can do that off the bat, there still need to be the possibility of estimating the roi. Same if you have the funds ingame, you need a reason. Right now, following 2.0 change and the lack of MU at lvls lower than 70-80, and the VERY SLOW implementation of this new loot system (we still don't have weapons with high eff but average eco), simply MA doesn't present a medium of trust for buying this cathegory of items. And the way to do so is unnecesarly idiotic.

(To add to the frustration, mayhem doesn't even drop some tens of L guns, so you could build your own stock. So we actually DON'T have those items ingame, thanks for nothing, MA.)

And to actually say something nice, I totally apreciate the effort put in diversification this year. Defense is alot of fun.

I see a lot of comments, but no actual discussions of the problems mentioned in the OP

- unfairness and cheating with so called 'random' event points


- in what way is it fair to get a lower price in a higher category?
In what way is it fair, that when working all year to skill up, getting to the next category and becoming a higher player, you'll probably get less prize money?


- The fair system of proportional rewards.
If there are 503 participants, then 503 ppl will get prize money.
Distribute the mayhem tokens PROPORTIONAL to the number of points.


I want Everybody happy. Not just the low lvl hunter who hits big, and not just the person with high dps.
The system of proportional rewards is fair for everyone. Everybody gets a piece of the pie, in accordance with your gaming skills and gear.

GoNi said:

And then we are back to the days where highest DPS simply win everything and the complaining about that will start again. Remember the years when THE "Terminator" simply won everything and all complained about the give aways to its owner?

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Please note that with proportional mayhem tokens prize distribution, getting 1st place doesn't get you a much higher reward then the next one. So the biggest gun doesn't get much more then the second biggest.

For instance, 1st place has 24000 event points, 2nd place has 23800 points.
In that case they will have almost the same reward. If MA distributes 400.000 mayhem tokens, and the total scored event points would be 470.000, they get:

first place: (400.000/470.000*24000) = 20.426 mayhem tokens
second place: (400.000/470.000*23800)= 20.255 mayhem tokens
... etc

That's why I call it proportional token distribution.

This will motivate more people to place as well, who would else be outside the top10. Every participant gets his proportional share.

GoNi said:

The distribution of score points by loot items, how it is at the moment isn´t the worst solution.
What I agree is that design of point items is fairly bad, and reduce event to pure luck.
Event tokens like the 5k shouldn´t exist, if it would be in a range of lowest 1 up to lets say 25, would be fair, as DPS still would count but still not 100% win chance.
Beside that every mob in the event instance should hold tokens, at least a 1 point.

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I agree that this way of points distribution that you propose would be way more fair then it is now.




Today's prize method has several disadvantages:

- it leaves out hundreds of people who fall outside of the top 10, but would love to compete. = missed income for MA.

- it makes people chip out to fall in a lower category, to get a higher prize. This is wrong in several ways. That is why the category system will never work.

imo having categories was the best addition made in the events, but locking players over 10 isn't.

GR having 4 ranks, 1 been noob and 4 been high level and been able to do any of them (except noob), the higher cats aren't rewarded fairly atm, cat 1 winner and cat 10 winner get the same PM token and there is only 4k M tokens between ranks. if the rewards are worth the step up, people will do it and if they can't afford to run cat 3, they can run 2 instead

having the rewards over 300 players, with the current rewards. all the PM tokens will go the the top 10 and everyone else gets worthless M tokens, unless only 1-5 get PM and 51-55, 101-105 and so on get the PM tokens

I'll not repeat what I said in my thread, but to sumarize, the event needs to be 50% skill/gear and 50% random/luck based.
(see link in first answer, I said there how to do it)
Better for most players, and so for MA.

As for others issues, I think it's pretty good now, and as I said in my thread again, there is maybe about 4000 peoples playing, each wants something different...
MA can't create an event for each of them.

Especially the 10 categories, IMO it's the best change that has been made for these events.

This is how Boxing works for example.

Can you imagine a Flyweight fight against an Heavyweight ?
When one wants to be on top of his categorie, he just loose weight.
You can chip out skills.

Maybe this is a problem for peoples above L100, but it's very hard to solve this I guess, since there is probably not enough high level players to create new categories.

Imagine a L100/120 categorie where 20 players will play... 1/2 chance to win.
And then a L120/140 one, probably 10 players will play for the 10 winners places..?
I don't think MA wants to give reward to players only because they are high level.

~ Cirrus ~ said:

This is how Boxing works for example.

Can you imagine a Flyweight fight against an Heavyweight ?
When one wants to be on top of his categorie, he just loose weight.
You can chip out skills.

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Except in Boxing all fighters have to have their hands wrapped the same way, use the same specs for weight, material, and size for their gloves.

Everyone using the same gear setup is the only way to make it truly fair.

Anthas said:

Except in Boxing all fighters have to have their hands wrapped the same way, use the same specs for weight, material, and size for their gloves.

Everyone using the same gear setup is the only way to make it truly fair.

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ridiculous

It's quite simple. People who invested in the Ferrari will drive faster and win the race.

That does not mean a person with a regular car can't get a price, however he cannot get the 1st price in a race.
That's why there should be stupid 'tombola' events where luck matters and 'race' events where dps and skills matter. Both should not be confused, or mixed together!

There is a difference between 'equal' and 'fair'. Fair means, you get a chance according to your investment. Equal means, everyone has the same chance, regardless time, effort, experience and money invested.

If you want equal chances, go play counter-strike or batsim

Fair means all drivers in a formula 1 race have limits and guidelines on weight, engine size, fuel, etc.
Should f1 drivers be forced to compete at the limits of say, a amateur entry stock Honda race? Definitely not. Hence why there is different categories in racing, and different categories in the new mayhem instance. But once again, all replies still fall into one of two categories. Either a player who cannot invest at that level and wants a better chance, or a player who can invest wel beyond most other players and wants an advantage because of their financial contribution.

I saw a suggestion on 1) not being allowed to abandon mission to stop first hour 5k farmers.
And 2) removing high value point limits and limiting it to 1/5/10/25.

I think both of these, combined with the following would be the best step forward.

Instead of a 20 hour timer, there should be a X amount of kills limit. Let’s say 4,000 as average player on a 20 hour - 200per hour kill grind can kill 4,000 mobs. Yes there are many that are both higher than this kill per hour, as well as many that are lower.

Once this kill amount is reached, no further points can or will be earned upon killing mobs. However you may continue to grind for boxes if you choose.

This negates the effects of say, the terminator or other extreme dps weapons from having an unfair advantage over everyone else by being able to do closer to 10k kills in the same time period as the rest of the players and defacto win based upon total kills instead of points. It makes it the closest to a truly fair event as possible while still leaving the competitive aspect I play.

Anthas said:

Fair means all drivers in a formula 1 race have limits and guidelines on weight, engine size, fuel, etc.
Should f1 drivers be forced to compete at the limits of say, a amateur entry stock Honda race? Definitely not. Hence why there is different categories in racing, and different categories in the new mayhem instance. But once again, all replies still fall into one of two categories. Either a player who cannot invest at that level and wants a better chance, or a player who can invest wel beyond most other players and wants an advantage because of their financial contribution.

I saw a suggestion on 1) not being allowed to abandon mission to stop first hour 5k farmers.
And 2) removing high value point limits and limiting it to 1/5/10/25.

I think both of these, combined with the following would be the best step forward.

Instead of a 20 hour timer, there should be a X amount of kills limit. Let’s say 4,000 as average player on a 20 hour - 200per hour kill grind can kill 4,000 mobs. Yes there are many that are both higher than this kill per hour, as well as many that are lower.

Once this kill amount is reached, no further points can or will be earned upon killing mobs. However you may continue to grind for boxes if you choose.

This negates the effects of say, the terminator or other extreme dps weapons from having an unfair advantage over everyone else by being able to do closer to 10k kills in the same time period as the rest of the players and defacto win based upon total kills instead of points. It makes it the closest to a truly fair event as possible while still leaving the competitive aspect I play.

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ehhhhh, sorry but are you suggesting no timer in mayhem?

so it doesn't matter what dps you have in that mayhem, take as long as u want to, remove the need for a high output within a certain time limit... hell remove F1 timed laps while at it!


the next idea might as well to make mayhem all about batsim! that feature is already in the game, all we need is a new scoreboard.. that way we all have the same hp and setup, great for the new mayhem!

LangeTobias said:

ehhhhh, sorry but are you suggesting no timer in mayhem?

so it doesn't matter what dps you have in that mayhem, take as long as u want to, remove the need for a high output within a certain time limit... hell remove F1 timed laps while at it!


the next idea might as well to make mayhem all about batsim! that feature is already in the game, all we need is a new scoreboard.. that way we all have the same hp and setup, great for the new mayhem!

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if you want it fair, then pretty much.

Anthas said:

if you want it fair, then pretty much.

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its the fairest in terms of competition but the unfairest in terms of progression

Please understand the difference between EQUAL, and FAIR:


EQUAL = everyone has the same gear/stats

FAIR = more dps -> more points

Some good ideas here.

The idea of 1pt for every kill, along with random pts seems most fair to me. Your rewarding dps, while still leaving some randomness.

And there’s should def not be any 5k or 10k pointers.

FAIR = more dps -> more points -> Back to pay to win 100% sure, NOT a good thing for the majority of players or MA

Mrs 2.0 said:

Please understand the difference between EQUAL, and FAIR:


EQUAL = everyone has the same gear/stats

FAIR = more dps -> more points

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