Problems in EU, as well as solutions, discussion definitely wanted.

Mentiol

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Mentiol Dekarus Demex
So, I'll try to talk out a few things here, not a pure rant, but close to it sadly.

So, what do I want to talk about specifically?
One part would be the missing communication from MA
Another the really bad and easily foreseeable decisions of MA like Loot 2.0 or 2.1
And another the literal blindness of some of the playerbase.
The absolutely misguided focus on development.

Don't get me wrong, I have deposited quite a bit for the amount of time I've actively played this game, and for a reason, one which isn't in existing anymore in the state the game is right now sadly, therefore no future deposits until this changes.

So, the first thing I want to speak of is the 'new' loot system MA as implemented, one which is definitely bad in a long-term prospect for the game. But why so? That's actually quite easy when understanding the Pareto principle. It's one of the fundamental principles in nature, social structures, hierarchy, economics and basically anywhere else with a few exception. 80% of things are accounted to 20% of other things, or similar uneven distributions.
So as to talk about this in the important part for MA: roughly 20% of the players contribute 80% of the income, the so called 'whales', often people in the core playerbase.
What does this mean? While the 'lower end' of players steadily shift with people coming and going, the upper part usually stays the same over an extended period of time, putting money in over and over again while keeping the game alive, as well as existing as a sort of 'idol' or any other term you want to use to describe them. Something for newer players to aspire towards.
Given Entropia Universe is marketed as a 'real cash economy' game, and plainly spoken the only actual game with game systems doing so at the moment, it's obvious people need to be able to 'win' and make actual money off the system to keep repeating their actions and bring in other players since they act as a role to work towards.
A long long while ago that was done purely by game knowledge, having high skills and being able to offer things to the market which are so rare and sought-after that they were expensive and wanted.
Many tries to 'balance' the game have been undertaken since then, a new engine, breaking several gameplay systems, revamping the loot system several times in different ways, like the introduction of shrapnel and finally the switch from a randomized system which can be understood slightly with efford towards an appaling mash coming close to something which isn't discerning a lot between equipment and skills anymore.
That's unarguably bad. If an RPG is made where the items, mobs and locations you do things are hard to be discerned in any way, then it has fundamentally failed, and the rework to 2.0 made this happen.
Why though? Well, no matter how 'effective' my weapon, armor, fap, enhancers and so on are, it basically only changes the outcome by around 7% as MA has stated, meaning 93% aren't coming from that. So the major part of an RPG, the equipment, is being nearly useless, making a beginner the same as an end-game player basically.
The same goes for skills, we don't even have a clue as to how much it influences our gameplay, and doesn't have anything to do with knowledge about the game mechanics rather then simply forcing money into the companies hands. Also, basing it purely on the amount of money spent to kill a mob gives no incentive of working out the system of how loot is distributed between players, before you had to look up the amount of people hunting at a place, the amount of people getting globals and hofs, or to find a specific mob which gives a specific item fairly often that held some sort of MU

So, to put together what loot changes since shrapnel did:
Equipment got marginalized.
Useful items were removed to get people turning over more PED.
The drop of actually useable items got nearly turned down to 0.
Hunting specific mobs is nearly non-important anymore.
Personal skill plays much less of an important role now, luck and money put into the game does mostly, to a far bigger degree.

So, to the next part, communication.
That's solely on the side of MA, a good game company is able to push out a weekly report, well written, sizeable, in depth on the work they are doing. It has gotten to be a common practice in the gaming industry for a reason, people able to see what is happening behind the scenes makes them able to put trust into a company, a trust MA direly needs with all the mistakes and con-plays they have done seemingly.
There are basically only 2 options there at the moment: Either MA is absolutely and utterly imcompetent, which is bad, but can at least be changed, or MA is actively milking the community, which is disgusting. I give them the doubt that they are simply incompetent, bad enough but acceptable at least.
So, what needs to be done to resolve this? First of all, the bugs in the game need to be solved before new game mechanics are introduced. The loot system needs to be changed immediately, and the voices of loyal long-term players need to be far more weighty then some random non-depositing beginner who has seen the game for a single week. The mass always makes for a nice goal, but this game isn't made for masses, it's catering to a specific playerbase, one which likes to gamble, one which likes virtual-realities and one which likes grinding. All of those have people with a lot of money inside which can literally generate at least ten times the revenue which MA is getting now.
For that the support needs to be up to par, the involvement of MA inside the game needs to be turned up a LOT, and specific channels need to be created to cater to those people, with a better easy of access then having to join pre-created ones which are dead. A global one for socializing, one for housing and vanity stuff and one specifically to help out beginners. It's mind boggling that those simple things haven't been implemented yet, it's like there isn't a single competent game-designer in MA, or the head of MA is simply a tyrant which isn't overly knowledgeable in running a steadily changing business.

And next the playerbase:

That's a hard one, a very hard one. I know with a large playerbase there are definitely several ways of looking at a system. Many have fears of changing it, many want it to change steadily, both aren't being able to be combined.
But, let's look at it from another perspective, one which is more important: Which games held out the longest, and which systems work for the longest time smoothly? It's generally one which can be understood to a degree, or where there can be a hierarchy created, with a few people at the top, coming there by working their way up either through putting effort or ressources into it, both ways are viable.
So what I want to talk about the playerbase is: Don't pamper the company, make their life a living hell if they screw with you. Yes, it's a game, but damn yes, it's one which takes your money, so they have to provide an actual modern way of providing at least the most basic things. Economy without a calculator in-game? What? Funding new parts without even fixing the most basic things? Virtual reality without any way to use it to socialize properly? Come on now guys, that's not something which has to be pointed out, but many seem to be in denial about it in-game as well as in the forums. I don't know the specific reasons, but some of them might simply be the fear of either loosing their only place to play out their personality, or for many it can also be that quite a hefty sum is at stake. But well, both of those would make it even more important to grow some balls, get a spine, and speak up for the darn thing to work properly for many years to come instead of shriveling away steadily. Surely there are a myriad of other reasons as well, but those came to mind the quickest at least for me.
If there is no pressure, there won't be things happening, simple as that, make pressure, more pressure, and a hefty amount extra pressure. Pull out funds worst-case, stop playing, look at the game from the side if you're unhappy with the state of it instead of steadily complaining while you're ignored completely.

As for the wrong directions of development, last but definitely not least.

That one is very easy to explain.
Revamping a money system so it favors beginners more? Are you nuts? It's like stripping the people putting in the most loyality and effort into the game of their status, it's disrespectful. It was build up for years, has worked for years, and would've worked for years if managed properly. It wasn't the loot system, it's the lack of development and broken promises.
Revamp space.
Make sitting animations.
Create social places.
UL drops nearly impossible.
L drops a bit more common so they can be sustained.
Player knowledge in the forefront, not overregulated by hastily thrown together systems.
Pet system expanded.
Housing system fixed.
Broken quests repaired.
Land Areas finally fully implemented.
And all those other long lasting things which were promised but never released. Screw the bullshitting with 'this got in the way', nobody beliefs you, it wasn't a thing before you invented it anyway, so fix the things people care about rather then working on a new side project nobody wants. It brings in thousands of players instead of turning away those few still playing, MA, you got your priorities very wrong, people keep telling you, you won't listen. Well, it's not the players fault the game isn't working, it's yours. Hire people who have knowledge and skills, as well as wanting to put effort into it, and then don't stifle them with concerns over how fixing things could go bad. They are broken, they can hardly get worse anymore as it's beginning to fall apart this time actually. It's a miracle the game has made it this far, it is a great base system, it has soooooo damn much potential. Use it, put effort into it, don't half-ass it anymore, don't trample on the trust of the people and instead actually deliver for a change.

As for all of those things, I would like to hear people write out their problems and suggestions as well, in detail and without trolling. A meaningful talk for a change instead of the common 'ahh but this is that because it's always been, and it won't change'. Well, it needs to, I can speak of the position of someone coming back here, wanting to actually spend several thousand dollars this year to finally get into a proper position with having good equipment and at least keeping even with MU and playing smart, and at coming back I find that not even that's possible anymore as it's literally been removed. In a game which tells me 'come here, make money, we offer the chance to do so! Invest into it' Heck, there is nothing to invest into if there is no progress done from my money invested.
 
Do i get you correctly, do you want them to design the game around "whales"?
 
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Sorry, I didn't read all of it.

Please dont post a years worth of stuff in 1 post. ;)
 
Do i get you correctly, do you want them to design the game around "whales"?

That's a given with how the game is set up. Society is set up around 'whales', those people don't stay in the uppermost region forever, new ones move up, other fall down by changing their ways or not following the times.
Same with intellect, at one time specific thoughts will be high in regard, in other times they'll be deemed useless despite having more then good ideas, even world-changing ones.

Designing any structure to allow uneven reward for a minority, but with the same chances to achieve those rewards for anyone is important. Not trying to flatten the curve so much it's the same for anyone no matter if they put effort and time into it, or not.
Since Entropia is marketed as a real cash economy, people need ways to get up to the top, most staying down, that's not a decision, and it's definitely not fair, but it's an actual basic law of society, one which thrives us.
Since it's marketed as a f2p game as well it can't only be done purely by putting in money, it also needs to have the chance to do it simply by effort, using your wits, playing the market, playing the system. So those people it markets towards will actually flock into it.

Also, 10 uber players sustain easily 1000 beginners with the ped-roll they get into the game. Money doesn't need to be hoarded, it's a ressource after all, and unused ressources are worthless. So it either needs to move out of the system by withdrawing it, or it needs to be recycled into the system to generate revenue and generate 'waves' in the loot system which can be worked out by a smart mind, even without actually knowing the exact system, it can after all be seen with proper time and care then.

So yes, it needs to revolve around the whales, but it shouldn't only focus on them, after all people need to have the opportunity to be whales first, incentive. Having both in place will lead automatically to a working system as the hope to actually be one is the thriving force of many coming into the game.
As is the ability to own land for those wanting to invest into virtual property.
As is the framework for people to socialize and reproduce places to do so for social players.

All of those bring revenue, either by investing, by trying to beat the other players and be at the top of the loot pool, or to make the character and housing in the game top-notch to be at the social top of the hierarchy. No hierarchy no thrive. No meaning no goal. Simple as that, unless you only want dead zombies here who don't want anything else then kill their time, but those generally tend not to have money, so they aren't profitable for a company.
 
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Sorry, I didn't read all of it.

Please dont post a years worth of stuff in 1 post. ;)

Please don't waste the time of other people, if you don't have anything to say, then don't say anything at all, common concept.
 
Since it's marketed as a f2p game as well it can't only be done purely by putting in money, it also needs to have the chance to do it simply by effort, using your wits, playing the market, playing the system. So those people it markets towards will actually flock into it.

and that worked actually quite fine before loot 2.0.
I did actually start with fruit gathering and worked my way up in the loot 1.0 days.
But then came loot 2.x* and pretty much destroyed everything i've build over 3 years within a couple months by very often giving me bad returns, like 78% return in 700 clicks on quantity on a QR 100 BP.
And from one month to another my plans of creating a crafting fund** and depoing a couple hundred dollars over the next year myself, changed into dissolving the fund, not depoing at all anymore and eventually even withdrawing my cash. So as it goes for making the game for gamblers, i'm against it.

*where they made the game more volatile
** with revenue for investors

200 PED gone in a few hours even on beginner stuff was/is simply way to expensive to play.

Also, 10 uber players sustain easily 1000 beginners with the ped-roll they get into the game.

when 10 of those beginners stop to play you won't have a big financial issue, if the game is designed more towards small depoers instead of whales.
when you design the game around whales and 10 of those stop, then you're in a lot of trouble, financially.

Just catering to whales is the biggest mistake a company can do. It's very risky.
You're underestimating the financial power and financial stability a huge mass of 5-20$ monthly depositers provide.

Also, when the small depositers leave, then the whales don't have many people to play with, they can shoot down in PvP, sell stuff too.
Unsatisfying experience for small depositers can end in an unsatisfying experience for the whales, who then will leave too.
 
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I agree with a lot of what you said.. And it couldn't be done in a post shorter than that for anyone allergic to reading.
The dilemma between MA openly taking more from the game or not seems an open and shut case to me.

And it is perplexing why these people are so willing to jump to MA's defense all the time. Are they protecting their end?

Hunting is nothing like before 2.0. Your points on the loot rarity are valid.. It is taking an awful long time to see MU balance if that was the original goal. In fact maybe there are bigger swings now.
Crafting before this recent update was enjoyable, maybe you hit or miss. But now all I seem to do is miss... A couple of 4 PED success is nothing compared to the 20-30-40 PED success' every now and then. Globals are non existent.

All of this could of course be because I am past the honeymoon period and am in between being able to earn the big loots and rare stuff, and not so noob anymore. you know the globals i never seem to hit anymore, that were intended to suck me in. A bit like the shared loot waves, the loot seems to have been nerfed, after the honeymoon period.

But you seem to have addressed a lot of my own concerns regarding the changes.. Leaving me with a big ? on my face.. Like the eco issue. Finding out what gun was eco, and doing some research gave the whole grinding to achieve something, even MORE validity.. Achievement was THE selling point for me on this game.. Introducing efficiency and wiping out a lot of investment in high MU guns was such a slap in the face to big spending players.

Ahh you cover so many things I agree with I forget which one I wanted to comment on, but there is A LOT!!

I see a lot of the same names involved in some big buying and selling of items. IS THIS the reason MA is changing it so much. I would imagine it is quite difficult to control that side of the game. There will probably be a buyer/seller tax introduced soon. MA need their end from that too!!!
 
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There are basically only 2 options there at the moment: Either MA is absolutely and utterly imcompetent, which is bad, but can at least be changed, or MA is actively milking the community, which is disgusting. I give them the doubt that they are simply incompetent, bad enough but acceptable at least.

Actually seems to be a bit of both... many promises broken yearly for over a decade now, and 'new systems' and locations always thrown on top to give folks more carrots to chase...

Incompetent? Strong word, but it works somewhat... Understaffed and over-ambitious may be better way to word it...
History tells us lots... (sadly many historians are leaving the game en masse lately, (or they are taking inside jobs less focused on being critical of things with their rosy colored glasses), so history may die with them as they exit stage left or turn in to the enemy they hunted with 'facts and opinions' a few years back...)

My personal take on it is that Loot 2.0 flattened out the returns for everyone, which really needed to be done... now they need to refill each mob's loot tables with the good stuff... but with this whole 'looter profession' thing I think they are heading a bit in the wrong direction on that... should have just stuck with loot 2.0 but made fewer shrapnel returns and more 'other stuff'... if looter makes the tt value difference, which it seems to based on what's been stated in forums, it's uh, well, gonna scare off the 'whales' as you call em... since only top tier will be able to get anything... Whales don't need to be killer sharks eating everything further down on the food chain.
 
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I appreciate your enthuasim for the game, but after reading the first paragraph or so, I thought "yea same thing I've heard/thought for years." MA never seems to listen to the players, communicate to the players, or seems to give a crap about them. I just feel like it's a group of 5-6 guys... bankers, who just sit around and pay someone to toss in some code every week or so and they are like out skiing or something.
They get a community manager, they post 5x and then we hear from them like once a quarter.
I love the game, the concept, the sci-fi, and so on, but IMO loot and cost to play continues to be a huge problem that they don't change.. or for the better.
 
I just feel like it's a group of 5-6 guys... bankers, who just sit around and pay someone to toss in some code every week or so and they are like out skiing or something.

Sadly, it feels like that.
 
when 10 of those beginners stop to play you won't have a big financial issue, if the game is designed more towards small depoers instead of whales.
when you design the game around whales and 10 of those stop, then you're in a lot of trouble, financially.

Just catering to whales is the biggest mistake a company can do. It's very risky.
You're underestimating the financial power and financial stability a huge mass of 5-20$ monthly depositers provide.

Also, when the small depositers leave, then the whales don't have many people to play with, they can shoot down in PvP, sell stuff too.
Unsatisfying experience for small depositers can end in an unsatisfying experience for the whales, who then will leave too.

Ah, yes, it's a rather complex thing to wrap your mind around, and I wasn't able to word it 100% like I wanted to word it, so I'll give it another try here.

So, those 'whales'. Yes, if 10 of them leave, there is a sort of vacuum of deposits then, that's true. But this vacuum is solved automatically by the incentive of the group mentality.
How so? Imagine someone who puts in 10000 dollar a year, those people exist. The person leaves, the 10000 dollar are missing. But what happens exactly behind the scenes psychologically then? A person putting in 10k Dollar a year has a massive ped-roll, one which allows them to fund their hunting, crafting, mining, buying vanity items without any sort of actual use, or apartments. If they chip out, their massed up skills get into the hands of other people which is an incentive to hunt bigger and more rewarding mobs, or mine amped at bigger depth, or get into crafting high-level materials. The market then regulates itself since new 'niches' to actually earn money are opening up.
Intelligent people will be able to find those niches, those people will often talk about making a profit, creating a psychological 'carrot on a stick' for others, they are the people bringing in more players automatically since they are seen as successful over a long period of time.

Now take what I've written and compare it to the system right now. What will you read from long-term players at the moment most of the time? 'I can't make a profit anymore', or 'making a profit is a lot harder and unrewarding now' as well as 'I will stop investing into this game as my 20k Dollar equipment is now as good as your 10 Dollar equipment'.
What does it do to a playerbase? That's easy. If I have the same chances with 10 dollars as I have with 10k dollar, why would I ever invest that much then? Why would I need to actually take time and do it the 'hard way' instead of simply staying at puny level without ever progressing?

At the moment hunting a carabok can be worth a lot more then hunting a feffox, the amount of comparable high MU loot is simply not given. Carabok hide is rare, therefore it has high MU since not a lot drops and it's a needed thing to start working on texturing at Arkadia for instance. Without a playerbase making money those textures won't be needed as coloring, texturing and setting up an apartment is a way to show off success to other people for many. Without success, well... guess what? No more vanity sales, which in return screws over the income capacity of those vocations.

Another reason why leaving whales will actually work itself out over a long period of time:
Imagine one leaving, stopping to flood the market with roughly 10000 PED worth of items every week which are getting cycles, sometimes even more. The playerbase wanting to get up to their level suddenly see a higher demand in materials since those aren't provided anymore, meaning the MU of items naturally goes up suddenly, allowing smaller players to make more profit. This attracts people which put in effort and money to slowly monopolize the market in this regard, lowering MU back down while an influx of low paying low recieving players see the light of the day.
A few will see the profit, a few will leave after a while again. Returning players see that the 'game' inside the game has changed over the years, giving them a reason to start off anew since 'maybe now they can profit well with the new inherent rules'. That's a healthy system. Old ways of revenue dieing, new ways popping up. The amount of ways to create revenue need to get bigger if you want to expand a company, the way of loosing out needs to increase as well. If there are only 2-5 ways to get successful, yes, then loosing the 2-3 players on top of each of those hierarchies hurts, a LOT. The company will likely die. This is actually what we are seeing right now.
If you create a system where there are 20, 50, 100 or even more ways to create money for oneself, well, then loosing even 10% of those isn't even a concern, the 'power vacuum' created in the fields by missing people will be filled quickly, new people will say 'Oh hey, see? I made it to the top, and I only invested 100 dollar to create 25000 dollar in the last 5 years, it's worth it!'. It's a self-regulating system.

Now compare it to now, with how any player has any incentive to work in anything: Hunting is a pure gamble now, input versus return is directly correlated, MU material is unable to even remotely make up for the losses nearly always, unless there is an exploitable system like short-term events. What to do in the meantime between those events thought for someone who wants to profit? Right, don't play, which means the specific loot this person has obtained in the event will likely not be sold at all, since it's not worth anything outside anymore, killing off this revenue as well.
Ok, then let's craft! Damn, the input versus output got flattened, no more 'oh shit! I got this 5k PED tick from crafting Simple I Springs!' anymore, which is a turn-off psychologically already. Also, Simple I Springs won't have any MU over time, who will use those expensive things to craft if the crafted items is useless, it's the same as a cheaper non-efficient UL item, which many people will choose quickly as MU isn't a concern in the system right now. sadly.
Ok, and for miners? Well, why mine if there is no MU anywhere as well? Right now those whales I'm speaking about sustain the old system while working in the new one. It means as soon as their profits sink far enough there will be no skilled person in Entropia left, with nobody buying the materials, meaning nobody crafts, meaning there won't be a single item with feasable MU on the market long-term.

This will take a while still, but it's happening. The change needs to be done before it comes to fruition, because if it's there anybody with a single shred of intelligence will see that there is simply no way at all left to create any sort of meaningful revenue in any way then, meaning you will only have short-term investors, no more long-term investors.

That in retrospect then means no more funding for more planets which can fail, no more funding for scam-like things as ComPet, no more ped turnover in high amounts to sustain the servers even in their existing faulty state.

The game then is dead, period. Can it make profit easily? Oh yes, many want a game such as Entropia, but they want it as it has been told. A place where you can go in with 10 dollars and out with 5000. Nobody beliefs it will be a breeze, that's just plain dumb. But people come here for the chance. Take away the chance, take away the people, simple as that. It's not so hard.
 
Lol, that is just angry note from some lazy person. I will tell you secret. Im profiting from hunting yet Im loosing in TT return. Skilling up brings me bigger possible turnover per hour with with bigger guns to use and bigger mobs to kill. I spend tremendous time to figure out what to hunt and what to sell when, also how long I need to hunt and when to stop etc. What it seems to me is that by your oppinion Im either a cheater or a magician.
 
You say limited guns should drop more in loot, but I think they shouldn't drop at all. Everything should be crafted. Crafting was buggered by the EP bps, but thanks to the new armatrix guns real crafters have a purpose, expand on that. More crafters more mu on loot/ore

High dpp is still better than low dpp, creates more stable returns, therefore lower losses.

Loot 2.0 is definitely less exciting, with lower globals and types of loot but mu is still there, you say all mobs are the same, but they aren't, looted 2 nemesis shins from snarksnots and vigi foot from harbinger in 24 hours, if eye oil is 3% then I hunt mobs that drop it. Loot 1 and loot 2+ are exactly the same in that regard.

And mu swings back to what I said first, get the crafters crafting and mu will rise
 
Now compare it to now, with how any player has any incentive to work in anything: Hunting is a pure gamble now, input versus return is directly correlated, MU material is unable to even remotely make up for the losses nearly always, unless there is an exploitable system like short-term events. What to do in the meantime between those events thought for someone who wants to profit? Right, don't play, which means the specific loot this person has obtained in the event will likely not be sold at all, since it's not worth anything outside anymore, killing off this revenue as well.
Ok, then let's craft! Damn, the input versus output got flattened, no more 'oh shit! I got this 5k PED tick from crafting Simple I Springs!' anymore, which is a turn-off psychologically already. Also, Simple I Springs won't have any MU over time, who will use those expensive things to craft if the crafted items is useless, it's the same as a cheaper non-efficient UL item, which many people will choose quickly as MU isn't a concern in the system right now. sadly.
Ok, and for miners? Well, why mine if there is no MU anywhere as well? Right now those whales I'm speaking about sustain the old system while working in the new one. It means as soon as their profits sink far enough there will be no skilled person in Entropia left, with nobody buying the materials, meaning nobody crafts, meaning there won't be a single item with feasable MU on the market long-term.

you do need high MU because it's such a gamble atm (too high volatility), the higher the volatility, the higher the MU you do need to compensate for the gap from current return to cover 100% of the costs.

Ok, then let's craft! Damn, the input versus output got flattened, no more 'oh shit! I got this 5k PED tick from crafting Simple I Springs!' anymore, which is a turn-off psychologically already. Also, Simple I Springs won't have any MU over time, who will use those expensive things to craft if the crafted items is useless, it's the same as a cheaper non-efficient UL item, which many people will choose quickly as MU isn't a concern in the system right now. sadly.

910 PED on simple I springs on quantity is enough (times 1000 multiplier), because you can still keep a rather high regular return.

just compare:
for times 1000 multiplier and with all the other smaller multiplier MA can run 90-93% return as regular and then let the player that 910 PED after 100k clicks or so to make the jump to 95%. it's nice to get it, but it's not mandatory to get it.

now if you change it so on quantity it can give 5k PED once every 100k clicks, then you may need to nerf the regular 90-93% return to maybe something like 75-80% return, so the player ends up with 95% return after the big hit.
Now people start to complain, that they're getting crap returns over and over again and that they can't rescope the losses with low MU the item offers. Now if they start raising MU, then the buyers need to pay more and be like "this is far too expensive, f*** this s***, i'm out of here!"

making the game way more expensive just to satisfy a handful of gambling whales, so they can HoF very high on basically small depoers stuff, is a very good way to kill your game, especially when those small depoers get low returns and then go to facebook/youtube and calling out the game to be a scam.

Bad reputation can kill your game faster than you think....

MA should simply go with something like this (basically like in the 1.0 days, all quantity):
max multiplier ~times 1000
to get at least 85% return you need to do about 150 clicks/kills/drops
to get at least 90% return you need to do about 500 clicks/kills/drops
to get at least 93% return you need to do about 1000 clicks/kills/drops
to get the 95% return, expect to do about 100000 clicks/kills/drops

The large gap from 93% to make the jump to 95% allows for big hits.

That's somewhat fair and if the HoF-chasers want to see a 5+k hof, then they can craft level 2 light amps on quantity or simple I springs on full condition, no need to make the game way more expensive for everyone.
 
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Lol, that is just angry note from some lazy person. I will tell you secret. Im profiting from hunting yet Im loosing in TT return. Skilling up brings me bigger possible turnover per hour with with bigger guns to use and bigger mobs to kill. I spend tremendous time to figure out what to hunt and what to sell when, also how long I need to hunt and when to stop etc. What it seems to me is that by your oppinion Im either a cheater or a magician.

With Loot 1.0 I would've believed you right away, without a moments notice.
Share the insight then, how do you make positive MU returns with 50% shrapnel at least, which means 50% of the loot sitting at 101%?
Unless you loot an overall 107% with the leftover material you are making a minus, meaning with the base materials of either animals, mutants or robots which all sit roughly at 104% right now (falling slightly) which make up at least another 30% of the loot, you need an actual MU return of over 110% with the leftover materials cross-mathed.
If the actual Cross-revenue created from everything together is underneath 102% it's also nothing to be proud of, as the market fee takes up the leftover revenue, or you have a dedicated crafter who buys from you at the moment, which will probably be gone rather soon given the changes which are still trickling in for many.
If there is another way you know of, well, at least give hints, I'm all open about this, and it also leads to you personally being able to keep the revenue in a positive over a longer period of time as other people will strive for the same, giving an actual incentive for people to work with so crafters and miners are kept in the game, making it able for you to sell your loot further on, unlike the prospect right now makes many predict it. (Me being one of them)

You say limited guns should drop more in loot, but I think they shouldn't drop at all. Everything should be crafted. Crafting was buggered by the EP bps, but thanks to the new armatrix guns real crafters have a purpose, expand on that. More crafters more mu on loot/ore

High dpp is still better than low dpp, creates more stable returns, therefore lower losses.

Loot 2.0 is definitely less exciting, with lower globals and types of loot but mu is still there, you say all mobs are the same, but they aren't, looted 2 nemesis shins from snarksnots and vigi foot from harbinger in 24 hours, if eye oil is 3% then I hunt mobs that drop it. Loot 1 and loot 2+ are exactly the same in that regard.

And mu swings back to what I said first, get the crafters crafting and mu will rise

That's a reasonable statement. Without any weapon drops at all, the incentive for crafters is larger. That's actually worth it then. Should be the same for armor parts then, with only rare special loot still inside the loot table then thought. To make it an understandable system without bias for any sort of revenue.

And with Loot 2.0 it only changes the loot composition in a minor way when hunting with a high dpp, also only if you do it with the right mobs.
As given with the basic math in the upper part of my post, 3% isn't able to cut the MU in general, only the very unstable loot of high MU armor parts has brought you out, which is the reasoning for my telling of letting (L) weapons drop with an higher amount, or remove them completely, as well as shrapnel. Or at least cut back on the shrapnel drops very much to keep it steady over time.
Loot 1.0 had a lot more 'rare' loot inside, Loot 2.0 is composed of massive amounts of useless loot compared to before, with the massive drop decrease of actual equipment, but no measures to act in rising the MU of materials, the cross-return has dropped significantly from before, thus leading to far fever venues for actual positive revenue.

I never said there is literally no way of creating revenue anymore, as there definitely is, but it got hacked into in a major way, leaving out more people with a loss while even less people profit, and even those with a smaller return rate then before.

now if you change it so on quantity it can give 5k PED once every 100k clicks, then you may need to nerf the regular 90-93% return to maybe something like 75-80% return, so the player ends up with 95% return after the big hit.
Now people start to complain, that they're getting crap returns over and over again and that they can't rescope the losses with low MU the item offers. Now if they start raising MU, then the buyers need to pay more and be like "this is far too expensive, f*** this s***, i'm out of here!"

That's actually not at all what I was talking about, we had the system, and returns of 92% with Loot 1.0 where feasable for even beginners as long as one kept about hunting in an eco manner. Meaning no overkill, nearly no healing, no armor, quick kills to keep away from regen and without any HOF's taken into account. If you had a HOF and did the above mentioned, you were over 100% for a while in general, a swirl meant something while not it has become a 'ah, ok, swirl, well, I'm still down no matter what' situation. The system is based on a part gambling, that's taken away as well mostly, the payouts for gamblers aren't as high anymore, but the same goes for 'smart' hunter, miner and crafter.

The reasoning of MA was to rise the return rate to 97% overall, compared to a 94% overall before (as much as I remember right). 3% are a lot if you take in MU. At the same time, high-MU drops were nerfed heavily though, meaning the market has become 'stale'. Just look at the sales of weapons and you know what I'm speaking about. Before there were 50 different guns for sale on Arkadia, not it's 10, at most, also only 2-3 on the whole market of each.

While the numbers look nice on paper, they don't take into account any sort of effects which are handled by other systems then pure TT value. While raising the pure TT value of the general population, it cut heavily into the returns of ubers, which have invested years of money and time to achieve their state, as well as cut into the returns of miners with the increased amounts of lyst and oil dropped, as well as cut into the returns of crafters since the generation of (L) blueprints got nerfed this way as well, they are defined by the multiplier after all.
So what I'm speaking about is that while the new system seems nice and fun on the surface, it's a rotten thing when looking past that. It's not only affecting the TT returns, it's affecting the MU of all existing items, as well as the auction heavily. It made the game 'stale'.

Bad reputation can kill your game faster than you think....

Exactly, and that's what my paragraphs above are describing. Right now the reputation of this 'come here and have a chance to get rich' game got the reputation of 'come here and give us the money, there is nothing left to gain though, despite us featuring it as the main selling point'. Many people are here to simply have fun, but guess what? Many are also here to get filthy rich by either luck, or by player based skill. Not by computer generated luck-based altitude flattening of returns which let's nearly nobody profit, especially not in any sort of a big way.

Still, while focusing on darn little things which are balancing acts - multiplier amount and altitude - the main discussion point of a personal loot allocation instead of the former global one wasn't even discussed here yet. It's the main issue, not those little useless things people tend to get blind over. Point 3 of my initial post 'stop being blind'. It's about the issues underneath the surface, not those anyone can instantly see.
To understand changes in a system, one must understand how it interacts with every value of the system as well as possible. Only looking at TT return and MU of the today isn't cutting it. You need to take into account the paradigm shift of steadily leaving core-players and therefore revolving non-active playerbase and psychological effects as well. Those are leading towards a flattening curve of MU as we've seen it since the last ~5 years.

Or to get the problems root with Loot 2.0 again:
Miners get the 'low quality' loot more often, meaning low MU materials mostly, high MU Materials barely anymore at all despite former high demand. MU hasn't risen in mentionable amounts despite this, why? Either demand has fallen for some reason, or someone has kept pumping out steady amounts of of nearly every material since then. The later seems unlikely.
Crafters don't get high MU loot as easily anymore, meaning less complex crafting processes. Why wasn't that mentioned? Well, 90% of the crafters are EP gamblers anyway, or close to it, actual MU crafters have gotten rare since a long time already, Loot 2.0 killed off auctions about many crafted guns, why isn't that mentioned somewhere? Is it good? No, it kills diversity, meaning there is no reason to craft it anymore, materials stay unused.
Well, and now to the hunters. Who do you want to sell those materials formerly used for many crafting processes to? Some still use em, rarely. How long though? Why should they continue? Who to sell it then? Well, at least to the last question I have an answer, TT, as selling more then 50 PED of some main components from mining or hunting are just not needed anymore, loot stacks of 1000 PED or higher? Forget it, will never be sold, dead capital which isn't cycles anymore.

If you affect one vocation it affects every vocation.
 
With Loot 1.0 I would've believed you right away, without a moments notice.
Share the insight then, how do you make positive MU returns with 50% shrapnel at least, which means 50% of the loot sitting at 101%?
Unless you loot an overall 107% with the leftover material you are making a minus, meaning with the base materials of either animals, mutants or robots which all sit roughly at 104% right now (falling slightly) which make up at least another 30% of the loot, you need an actual MU return of over 110% with the leftover materials cross-mathed.

hmmm, i usually did get only 30-35% shrapnell on my hunt, i've even seen kills giving as low as 10-15% shrapnell. This has been easy profit with MU.

Exactly, and that's what my paragraphs above are describing. Right now the reputation of this 'come here and have a chance to get rich' game got the reputation of 'come here and give us the money, there is nothing left to gain though, despite us featuring it as the main selling point'. Many people are here to simply have fun, but guess what? Many are also here to get filthy rich by either luck, or by player based skill. Not by computer generated luck-based altitude flattening of returns which let's nearly nobody profit, especially not in any sort of a big way.

and the 'come here and give us the money' happened, because people did want to get bigger hofs and then MA reworked the multipliers and when you don't get those multipliers, then MA's just draining the pocket very quickly. I don't primarly blame MA for that, i blame the community for that, because of their basically 'i want to ATH on punies!'-shit....
It's the communities fault, that the get rich by player skill is gone on crafting and all that's left is get rich by luck (like with your 5k simple i springs on quantity non-sense).....

Or to get the problems root with Loot 2.0 again:
Miners get the 'low quality' loot more often, meaning low MU materials mostly, high MU Materials barely anymore at all despite former high demand. MU hasn't risen in mentionable amounts despite this, why? Either demand has fallen for some reason, or someone has kept pumping out steady amounts of of nearly every material since then. The later seems unlikely.
Crafters don't get high MU loot as easily anymore, meaning less complex crafting processes. Why wasn't that mentioned? Well, 90% of the crafters are EP gamblers anyway, or close to it, actual MU crafters have gotten rare since a long time already, Loot 2.0 killed off auctions about many crafted guns, why isn't that mentioned somewhere? Is it good? No, it kills diversity, meaning there is no reason to craft it anymore, materials stay unused.

as an actual MU crafter, i can tell you, that i shut down various MU crafts, because of this whole 'give us bigger us hofs, even when it means the general return gets way worse'-bullshit....
before this BS did happen, i got 85-90% return on my 15-20 click amp runs most of the time, i could pay hunters/miners 110-115% for the material, sell the crafted item for 124ish% and it was all okay.
Then that BS did happen, then i started to get 50-66% return on my 15-20 click amp runs most of the time, that burned a whole into my pocket very quickly and now the hunters/miners can sent the materials into the TT, because i'm certainly not touching that craft anymore with such shitty returns...
If you want MU crafters, then make crafting that gaining profits/break even isn't purely down to luck of pulling a big multiplier....
 
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hmmm, i usually did get only 30-35% shrapnell on my hunt, i've even seen kills giving as low as 10-15% shrapnell. This has been easy profit with MU.



and the 'come here and give us the money' happened, because people did want to get bigger hofs and then MA reworked the multipliers and when you don't get those multipliers, then MA's just draining the pocket very quickly. I don't primarly blame MA for that, i blame the community for that, because of their basically 'i want to ATH on punies!'-shit....
It's the communities fault, that the get rich by player skill is gone on crafting and all that's left is get rich by luck (like with your 5k simple i springs on quantity non-sense).....



as an actual MU crafter, i can tell you, that i shut down various MU crafts, because of this whole 'give us bigger us hofs, even when it means the general return gets way worse'-bullshit....
before this BS did happen, i got 85-90% return on my 15-20 click amp runs most of the time, i could pay hunters/miners 110-115% for the material, sell the crafted item for 124ish% and it was all okay.
Then that BS did happen, then i started to get 50-66% return on my 15-20 click amp runs most of the time, that burned a whole into my pocket very quickly and now the hunters/miners can sent the materials into the TT, because i'm certainly not touching that craft anymore with such shitty returns...
If you want MU crafters, then make crafting that gaining profits/break even isn't purely down to luck....

Yes, exactly what I want to say. It still doesn't address the main problem of Loot 2.0 though. It's the introduction of an actual 'personal lootpool' which hasn't been in existance before, though argued by some people, which turned out to be wrong gladly.
My example wasn't overly well done, just an abstraction of the underlying problem, it would've been the same if I said 500 ped, or 50k ped, the general system of actually getting out of a minus by getting the 'jackpot' so to speak. It doesn't need to be big enough to sustain 10 years of gameplay, but it needs to be big enough to at least sustain a week, exact numbers are irrelevant for an example.

Now it's actually down to the part you speak of as being 'purely luck'. And also, this luck can only last short-term, never long term.
We see the amount of shrapnel has been increased in general, especially with low-lvl mobs the problem is ridiculously large. While profiting with mobs roughly sitting at the puny level before, even if it was only feasable on low quantity amounts of items, these options have mostly vanished now. That's part 1 of the problems.
The worse one, part 2, is the introduction of the personal lootpool. Unlike before were there was a global lootpool, or at least server-wide or planet-wide one, now all loot is directly causal with the input of PED instead of skillfull deduction of where the pool is filled or emptied, or at which times. It's still existing underneath the layered system on top, not completely gone, but the altitude has been shifted dramatically. Before I could see if there were any globals or especially HOFs in a specific area before starting to hunt/mine or craft. Now those occurences aren't actual indicators anymore since it's purely based on 'skill events' which are purely based on your PED-output, not on your personal level of operation.

Or to take part 2 a bit deeper into consideration:
While a beginner which hunted with armor, a fap, a mob above his level, un-eco gun and overkill made a return of 20% TT (which is fair for him failing so miserably) now he gets a return of close to 90% over time. In retrospect someone adhering to the known stats causing bigger returns, usually leading close to 94% TT return now get... exactly, 97% TT return.
At first glance it looks great. But take it one more step further. What does more payout for both parties mean? More fairness? No, absolutely not, it was fair before. The one screwing up badly lost massive amounts and whined while the one putting effort in it and following the obtained knowledge turned a sustainable profit with MU in far more ways then possible right now.
Why so? Well, there is still a general loot-pool existing. The people which went in un-eco filled the loot-pool, which in return rewarded the people having higher 'player based skill', no representation with any numbers on the technical aspect. On the other side 'system based skill' like the looting professions are only aiding a single type of player, which are the highly skilled ones as it changes loot composition in a major way.

So, why do I say 'major' when telling about the loot composition. I wasn't sure about the impact of the looter skills until now. Hunting in a fashion which is considered 'overly eco' in my field, meaning switching weapons up to 3 times per mob to keep any sort of meaningful overkill damage at bay while also stopping them from actually arriving at my place, I have a much higher amount of shrapnel in my loot then you've mentioned there, and by a massive margin even.
So, is this fair? In a sense yes, but at the same time it means people can't work out ways with wit and effort anymore, turning the f2p part into a masquerade, even more then it already was. Only focusing on 'whales' and uprising them was told to be bad on your side. This is exactly that, only adhering to them and focusing on them sustaining the game long-term.
Sure, from a perspective of someone closing in on being over, or at least with a generally decent level of skills it's looking fairly 'ok' still, and actually hearing the profit numbers from some higher players before and after Loot 2.0 still lets me know that there IS at least some profit to be made, but they have sustained a major cut as well. 107% before and 104% after isn't a large sum %-wise. But taken only the part of the profit it's a cut of over 30%! That's just mind boggling.

I'm not talking about 'balancing' here, I'm talking about the actual system being changed in a way which isn't adhering to anyones good besides the one of MA, and even there only short-term as I've already described the problems following the long-term implementation of this system. If you go and hunt the mobs which I barely come close to cutting my losses towards 0%, which isn't even doable for me at my skill level because of the ridiculous amount of shrapnel, and the underwhelming amount of MU loot of any manner, you'll instead turn out a definite profit afterwards, purely decided by the deposited amount you've cycled. Not by equipment (which is a minor role, but also working into it still), not by knowledge, but by hard-coded numbers which leave no room for personal skill which is meaningful.
Let people be stupid again instead of babysitting them. If someone is dumb enough to hunt in a manner to return 20%, well, they should exactly get this number. But if someone is smart and works with every possible solution at hand, reward them!

It's a simple matter of equality of opportunity, which is something we all definitely can agree on, everyone should have the same chance, nobody being favored at all. And on the other hand equality of outcome, which sounds awesome at first, until you realize the incompetent drooling person which is closer to an ape then a human gets the same thing as you do as a smart guy trying to work with all tools possible. That's not fair, that leads to passive behavior since there is no reward, and therefore leads to people finding it 'boring' as many describe the new system. If I get a swirly right now and by mistake killed a young instead of a guardian mob, well, my 'loot event' is gone as it's based on my personal PED input, but if the same happened in 1.0 the mob beside of it could still have the high multiplier as it wasn't decided by your pool but the global pool.

Edit: If I get a swirly right now and by mistake killed a young instead of a guardian mob, well, my 'loot event' is gone as it's based on my personal PED input, but if the same happened in 1.0 the mob beside of it could still have the high multiplier as it wasn't decided by your pool but the global pool.

--> I wrote this part wrong, completely. The multiplier can still be there, but while it formerly could've been a mob worth 35 PED while putting in 1, it now can only be a multiplication of your personal PED-amount input into the system, meaning as a 'smart' player it's 15 PED with MU and the high multiplier being gone. A not-so-smart player gets 50 in shrapnel. Before the existence of a multiplier was decided if enough PED were cycled, leaving the existing amount still in the pool as MU materials, not the TT value gets turned into shrapnel instead, meaning the more people play like apes the higher the overall MU gets, and the more play eco, the lower the MU turns out to be. This leads to hoarding knowledge and stiffling competition instead of trying to put as many people as possible at the top and letting them compete since the composition was always the same, just the best had more % return. Now the apes TT input which was formerly MU output for smart guys now gets payed back out in crap for the ape while the MU materials are simply not put into existence at all, it flattened the curve again.

Edit 2:
After posting this immediately came a good number example to mind, not with real numbers but abstracted to put emphasis on the system instead of real numbers:
1000 ped input loot 2.0
Skilled 'smart guy':returns 97%, 10% MU, total 107%
Unskilled 'smart guy: returns 97%, 3% MU, total 100%
skilled 'ape: returns 94%, 5% MU, total 99%
unskilled 'ape': returns 94%, 1% MU, total 95%

1000 ped input loot 1.0
Skilled 'smart guy': returns 94%, 15% MU, total 109%
unskilled 'smart guy' returns 91%, 15% MU, total 104% (worse eco rating of equipment in general)
skilled 'ape': returns 20% , 15% MU, total 35%
unskilled 'ape: returns 20%, 15% MU, total 35%

This shows clearly the difference between reward and punishment for good or bad playstyles. Upper one more 'fair'? If you think so, well... that's unfortunate.
 
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Lol, that is just angry note from some lazy person. I will tell you secret. Im profiting from hunting yet Im loosing in TT return. Skilling up brings me bigger possible turnover per hour with with bigger guns to use and bigger mobs to kill. I spend tremendous time to figure out what to hunt and what to sell when, also how long I need to hunt and when to stop etc. What it seems to me is that by your oppinion Im either a cheater or a magician.

when you say profit can you explain how much profit and how many hours you play to achieve that profit. I think that will help people to understand what it really means when someone says "i profit"
 
Or to take part 2 a bit deeper into consideration:
While a beginner which hunted with armor, a fap, a mob above his level, un-eco gun and overkill made a return of 20% TT (which is fair for him failing so miserably) now he gets a return of close to 90% over time. In retrospect someone adhering to the known stats causing bigger returns, usually leading close to 94% TT return now get... exactly, 97% TT return.
At first glance it looks great. But take it one more step further. What does more payout for both parties mean? More fairness? No, absolutely not, it was fair before. The one screwing up badly lost massive amounts and whined while the one putting effort in it and following the obtained knowledge turned a sustainable profit with MU in far more ways then possible right now.
Why so? Well, there is still a general loot-pool existing. The people which went in un-eco filled the loot-pool, which in return rewarded the people having higher 'player based skill', no representation with any numbers on the technical aspect. On the other side 'system based skill' like the looting professions are only aiding a single type of player, which are the highly skilled ones as it changes loot composition in a major way.

1.) well, bad DPP guns still giving okay return isn't a bad thing, in loot 1.0 nobody would have used them at all, there was just no market at all for them, producing many dead BPs... now some people even use those, expanding the diversity of items being crafted.

2.) players with bad DPP weapons still have 2 disadvantages, they get slightly worse return and they get significantly worse loot composition. So they're still getting quite punished for it.

I'm not talking about 'balancing' here, I'm talking about the actual system being changed in a way which isn't adhering to anyones good besides the one of MA, and even there only short-term as I've already described the problems following the long-term implementation of this system. If you go and hunt the mobs which I barely come close to cutting my losses towards 0%, which isn't even doable for me at my skill level because of the ridiculous amount of shrapnel, and the underwhelming amount of MU loot of any manner, you'll instead turn out a definite profit afterwards, purely decided by the deposited amount you've cycled. Not by equipment (which is a minor role, but also working into it still), not by knowledge, but by hard-coded numbers which leave no room for personal skill which is meaningful.
Let people be stupid again instead of babysitting them. If someone is dumb enough to hunt in a manner to return 20%, well, they should exactly get this number. But if someone is smart and works with every possible solution at hand, reward them!

this is based on loot 2.0 before looter profession introduction (couldn't test with looter profession yet):
naked with 63% efficiency gun + amp and very little overkilling: 30-35% shrapnell
naked with 57% efficiency gun and quite some overkilling: 50+% shrapnell
armor with enhancer + 57% efficiency gun and quite some overkilling: 75+% shrapnell

no clue, where you're getting the idea from that equipment and knowledge wouldn't impact your loot :confused:
 
DiXeCZ said:
Lol, that is just angry note from some lazy person. I will tell you secret. Im profiting from hunting yet Im loosing in TT return. Skilling up brings me bigger possible turnover per hour with with bigger guns to use and bigger mobs to kill. I spend tremendous time to figure out what to hunt and what to sell when, also how long I need to hunt and when to stop etc. What it seems to me is that by your oppinion Im either a cheater or a magician.
when you say profit can you explain how much profit and how many hours you play to achieve that profit. I think that will help people to understand what it really means when someone says "i profit"

"i profit" means that on every 1 ped cycled he gets more than 1 ped back after MU :) He never said it's his day job. I profit too after MU, so are many other ppl. It's not much, I won't quit my day job for that, but still I'm net positive. It was said many times, you have to hunt for MU and not rely on TT profits - no magic involved. Just don't hunt generic mobs dropping generic junk. My current TT return is around 96%, 102%+ after MU. In 1.0 i was 93% TT, 107% after MU. TT returns increase in 2.0 is due to overkill no longer being a factor - it affected me as I hunt small mobs. But I'm worse off after MU due to lower drop rates of stuff i care and MU not catching up lowered supply somehow :scratch2: I probably have to look for new mob to hunt but testing for profitability is time and ped consuming :/

I think OP it not right saying it's not possible to profit due to shraps being large portion of loot - he forgot major portion of loot in 1.0 was laser/blp ammo with exactly 0% MU. MA changed that to shraps because some ppl complained it's hard to track returns when looted ammo mix up with the one you brought. Even if half of your loot is 101% shraps, you still can get 106% loot average if small portion of your loot is high MU stuff. It could be halix tail, vixen gears, orange paint or whatever. If you farm something with 500%MU all you need it 1.5% of your loot to be that thing to reach 106%.
 
Oh cool,lets hunt halix all day long for weeks :yay:
Sadly small and very very small mobs have big MU in them (it always was like that,nothing new) but what about normal sized mobs? 5-10 pedish ? L30-L70 sized mobs?
Now when noob enters the game and when he finally starts grasp whats going on,what does he see ?
Small mobs=good, big mobs=bad, skills=useless (very little skills needed to hunt 20hp mobs right),grinding for skills=pointless, small lvl weapons=cheep, big lvl weapons=who and why uses them ? Very rewarding game and what a challenge right?
Real money in this game? Invest in your avatar they say. Drop 20 USD and hunt halix for weeks,and prolly profit too.
EU is game for adults,average age of EU player is 35+ years. Show me a person at that age who thinks pizza is investment? Sure those are real 20 usd,but are they "real money" ?
 
Oh cool,lets hunt halix all day long for weeks :yay:
Sadly small and very very small mobs have big MU in them (it always was like that,nothing new) but what about normal sized mobs? 5-10 pedish ? L30-L70 sized mobs?

rt would be the place to go, well, if loot 2.0 wouldn't have broken loot here.
Dragon stuff had ~200% MU ^^
 
1.) well, bad DPP guns still giving okay return isn't a bad thing, in loot 1.0 nobody would have used them at all, there was just no market at all for them, producing many dead BPs... now some people even use those, expanding the diversity of items being crafted.

2.) players with bad DPP weapons still have 2 disadvantages, they get slightly worse return and they get significantly worse loot composition. So they're still getting quite punished for it.



this is based on loot 2.0 before looter profession introduction (couldn't test with looter profession yet):
naked with 63% efficiency gun + amp and very little overkilling: 30-35% shrapnell
naked with 57% efficiency gun and quite some overkilling: 50+% shrapnell
armor with enhancer + 57% efficiency gun and quite some overkilling: 75+% shrapnell

no clue, where you're getting the idea from that equipment and knowledge wouldn't impact your loot :confused:

1.) Actually it is, at least in this magnitude. While formerly the crafting process of some of the high dpp guns was expensive because of MU items, not they are literally worthless as a slightly less efficient UL gun gives a better return overall, this ruins the ability for those other guns to be sold if you want to keep as much PED as possible in your possession.

2.) Yes and no. The first thing isn't true, the return is exactly the same. The only thing calculating into TT return is hit rate, nothing else, everything else is entirely loot composition. Even crit multiplier and chance are pure composition since they actively lower the cost, therefore lower TT return per mob. This wasn't the case with 1.0, having superior equipment meant active and superior returns directly instead of only with the loot composition.

"i profit" means that on every 1 ped cycled he gets more than 1 ped back after MU :) He never said it's his day job. I profit too after MU, so are many other ppl. It's not much, I won't quit my day job for that, but still I'm net positive. It was said many times, you have to hunt for MU and not rely on TT profits - no magic involved. Just don't hunt generic mobs dropping generic junk. My current TT return is around 96%, 102%+ after MU. In 1.0 i was 93% TT, 107% after MU. TT returns increase in 2.0 is due to overkill no longer being a factor - it affected me as I hunt small mobs. But I'm worse off after MU due to lower drop rates of stuff i care and MU not catching up lowered supply somehow :scratch2: I probably have to look for new mob to hunt but testing for profitability is time and ped consuming :/

I think OP it not right saying it's not possible to profit due to shraps being large portion of loot - he forgot major portion of loot in 1.0 was laser/blp ammo with exactly 0% MU. MA changed that to shraps because some ppl complained it's hard to track returns when looted ammo mix up with the one you brought. Even if half of your loot is 101% shraps, you still can get 106% loot average if small portion of your loot is high MU stuff. It could be halix tail, vixen gears, orange paint or whatever. If you farm something with 500%MU all you need it 1.5% of your loot to be that thing to reach 106%.

The first part, yes. You can actively see the difference even with lower mobs, those have a composition of high MU materials. Mid-level mobs often don't, meaning it's staying at those lower mobs until you can go into the high-yield sections of the game, which needs many many PED to be cycled to achieve, which in return now takes eons instead of ages unless you're willing to burn your PED-card into oblivion.
The MU change is also quite clear, even fewer people crafting in the new system which means supply and demand haven't changed their correlation in a major way. Or said simply: While there is less MU material available, there is also less MU material used right now. Stale curve.

As for the second part: That's true. But those things aren't a single change, it's 2 changes. Taking out pure ammo was a good thing, it helped along, and unlike many said, there is absolutely no concern in looting pure ammo, the TT return and MU return could still easily be mathed out if someone knew what he was doing. So this part was just lazyness of people not understanding how the exact setup for a proper hunting spreadsheet functioned.
Given you need 1,5% of your loot to be let's say Orange Paint, that won't happen. The amount of those things is generally under 0,5% of TT return, it only gets saved by the fact that those aren't the absolutely single item which are worth any sort of MU in the loot. But in general yes.

Oh cool,lets hunt halix all day long for weeks :yay:
Sadly small and very very small mobs have big MU in them (it always was like that,nothing new) but what about normal sized mobs? 5-10 pedish ? L30-L70 sized mobs?
Now when noob enters the game and when he finally starts grasp whats going on,what does he see ?
Small mobs=good, big mobs=bad, skills=useless (very little skills needed to hunt 20hp mobs right),grinding for skills=pointless, small lvl weapons=cheep, big lvl weapons=who and why uses them ? Very rewarding game and what a challenge right?
Real money in this game? Invest in your avatar they say. Drop 20 USD and hunt halix for weeks,and prolly profit too.
EU is game for adults,average age of EU player is 35+ years. Show me a person at that age who thinks pizza is investment? Sure those are real 20 usd,but are they "real money" ?

That's a major part of what I'm talking about. Stay low or go low it's mostly right now. I came into this game to make a profit slowly, by trading and therefore allowing smaller players to keep hunting steadily as one part. The second part is by raising my skills to allow for more options to hunt, mine and craft, therefore being rewarded with more venues to profit long-term. I don't have anything against hunting halix for a month, or even 6. What my problem now is a bit more impacting.
Imagine getting into the game and seeing all that 'high-end' loot costing several thousands of PED. That's quite an investment into a simple arrangement of data, with no real world value in itself. With the former system you could work yourself up and switch from one mob to another for specific returns along the whole ladder of skills, low mobs were generally wasteful because of overkill, mid-level mobs stopped the overkill but didn't have a massive amount of MU and last but not least high-end mobs offered a general low MU as well often, but the chance to get rare and extremely high value MU loot from time to time put you into surplus again, and by quite a bit even as not many were able to create said items this way, they needed to have a lot invested already.
Now let's take my personal example: I came back to EU with the intention of finally 'starting off' properly. I wanted to invest several thousand Dollars worth over the course of the next 3 years so I am able to buy good rings, good equipment and then get out to hunting steadily while selling my loot for profit. I've tested out many many venues with friends together, from crafting specific items, to mining specific minerals in specific areas to hunting specific mobs. All those were held in spreadsheets with the exact composition of all returns at all times in all situations to see where open venues of profit existed.
Now? Well, thanks for punishing my TT return to use rings unstead of rewarding it. Also, while it gives a general increase of 'loot events' in the same period of time because of more mobs killed, the chance of turning my loot composition down actually is also a bigger things to consider. It might actually now have a net negative effect seen over time instead of a positive one, that's screwed.
So, I have to keep at using high efficient equipment, equipment which has gotten more expensive in general. While an eco gun on Arkadia did cost ~120% MU before 2.0, now buying one costs above 140%. Even with the Extender this bigger MU isn't positive, it's actually the contrary, cutting deeper into my returns then before. If you take into consideration not only the decay, but also the MU associated with the decay, my net return is even worse then before.
Or as an example:
Using a gun worth 100TT 120% MU. Lets say it breaks after 900 PED ammo, so a total spending of 1k PED:
I return 97% TT without calculating MU into it.
With calculating the MU of the gun into it, the net TT return sinks to ~95%, which is a bit harder, but able to be adjusted to.
Now having the same situation, now with 140% MU gun:
I return 97% TT without calculating MU into it.
But after calculating it, I return ~93%.

I haven't done the exact math, once more it's just an abstracted model of what I want to say, it's purely there to show the impact of what has happened, not to crunch actual numbers. One can see it's lower this way then before simply, and that's the important part.

rt would be the place to go, well, if loot 2.0 wouldn't have broken loot here.
Dragon stuff had ~200% MU ^^

Oh, as a beginner with someone buying crafting loot you could also get a decent return of 2 PED/hour hunting permanently with the TT weapon at the small wolves there, not possible anymore now as well, one more revenue for beginners closed, even if it only sustained at max 5 people doing it before the market was saturated. This happened all around sadly, everything turned into the same mush basically with people leaving towards Calypso since it has the only proper market now. Before Ark had a working one, and RT had an existing one at least. Now Ark looks close to RT before.
 
Oh cool,lets hunt halix all day long for weeks :yay:
Sadly small and very very small mobs have big MU in them (it always was like that,nothing new) but what about normal sized mobs? 5-10 pedish ? L30-L70 sized mobs?
Now when noob enters the game and when he finally starts grasp whats going on,what does he see ?
Small mobs=good, big mobs=bad, skills=useless (very little skills needed to hunt 20hp mobs right),grinding for skills=pointless, small lvl weapons=cheep, big lvl weapons=who and why uses them ? Very rewarding game and what a challenge right?
Real money in this game? Invest in your avatar they say. Drop 20 USD and hunt halix for weeks,and prolly profit too.
EU is game for adults,average age of EU player is 35+ years. Show me a person at that age who thinks pizza is investment? Sure those are real 20 usd,but are they "real money" ?

Big mobs were always like this. You got hit by liquidity problems on generic stuff as what used to be 50ped stacks are now 500ped stacks and it's harder to squeeze MU out of them + lots of high MU stuff is very illiquid non-caly/non-ark which only makes sense farming if you don't cycle much. Also from my experience high MU stuff drops with same frequency no matter what maturity you hunt - so higher maturity you hunt, less % of total loot that high MU items are. So you only need to hunt high enough so what you look for fit within normal loot size and not any higher. Plus easier to have TT returns stabilize on small mobs.

Still I would not call 5-10ped mobs normal range :p Definitively not normal for me. For me this is a subscription based game where by playing smart you can get your subscription back, not an investment. And i don't have a problem with playing for weeks with $20 deposit :D
 
So, I'll try to talk out a few things here, not a pure rant, but close to it sadly.

So, what do I want to talk about specifically?
One part would be the missing communication from MA
Another the really bad and easily foreseeable decisions of MA like Loot 2.0 or 2.1
And another the literal blindness of some of the playerbase.
The absolutely misguided focus on development.

Don't get me wrong, I have deposited quite a bit for the amount of time I've actively played this game, and for a reason, one which isn't in existing anymore in the state the game is right now sadly, therefore no future deposits until this changes.

So, the first thing I want to speak of is the 'new' loot system MA as implemented, one which is definitely bad in a long-term prospect for the game. But why so? That's actually quite easy when understanding the Pareto principle. It's one of the fundamental principles in nature, social structures, hierarchy, economics and basically anywhere else with a few exception. 80% of things are accounted to 20% of other things, or similar uneven distributions.
So as to talk about this in the important part for MA: roughly 20% of the players contribute 80% of the income, the so called 'whales', often people in the core playerbase.
What does this mean? While the 'lower end' of players steadily shift with people coming and going, the upper part usually stays the same over an extended period of time, putting money in over and over again while keeping the game alive, as well as existing as a sort of 'idol' or any other term you want to use to describe them. Something for newer players to aspire towards.
Given Entropia Universe is marketed as a 'real cash economy' game, and plainly spoken the only actual game with game systems doing so at the moment, it's obvious people need to be able to 'win' and make actual money off the system to keep repeating their actions and bring in other players since they act as a role to work towards.
A long long while ago that was done purely by game knowledge, having high skills and being able to offer things to the market which are so rare and sought-after that they were expensive and wanted.
Many tries to 'balance' the game have been undertaken since then, a new engine, breaking several gameplay systems, revamping the loot system several times in different ways, like the introduction of shrapnel and finally the switch from a randomized system which can be understood slightly with efford towards an appaling mash coming close to something which isn't discerning a lot between equipment and skills anymore.
That's unarguably bad. If an RPG is made where the items, mobs and locations you do things are hard to be discerned in any way, then it has fundamentally failed, and the rework to 2.0 made this happen.
Why though? Well, no matter how 'effective' my weapon, armor, fap, enhancers and so on are, it basically only changes the outcome by around 7% as MA has stated, meaning 93% aren't coming from that. So the major part of an RPG, the equipment, is being nearly useless, making a beginner the same as an end-game player basically.
The same goes for skills, we don't even have a clue as to how much it influences our gameplay, and doesn't have anything to do with knowledge about the game mechanics rather then simply forcing money into the companies hands. Also, basing it purely on the amount of money spent to kill a mob gives no incentive of working out the system of how loot is distributed between players, before you had to look up the amount of people hunting at a place, the amount of people getting globals and hofs, or to find a specific mob which gives a specific item fairly often that held some sort of MU

So, to put together what loot changes since shrapnel did:
Equipment got marginalized.
Useful items were removed to get people turning over more PED.
The drop of actually useable items got nearly turned down to 0.
Hunting specific mobs is nearly non-important anymore.
Personal skill plays much less of an important role now, luck and money put into the game does mostly, to a far bigger degree.

So, to the next part, communication.
That's solely on the side of MA, a good game company is able to push out a weekly report, well written, sizeable, in depth on the work they are doing. It has gotten to be a common practice in the gaming industry for a reason, people able to see what is happening behind the scenes makes them able to put trust into a company, a trust MA direly needs with all the mistakes and con-plays they have done seemingly.
There are basically only 2 options there at the moment: Either MA is absolutely and utterly imcompetent, which is bad, but can at least be changed, or MA is actively milking the community, which is disgusting. I give them the doubt that they are simply incompetent, bad enough but acceptable at least.
So, what needs to be done to resolve this? First of all, the bugs in the game need to be solved before new game mechanics are introduced. The loot system needs to be changed immediately, and the voices of loyal long-term players need to be far more weighty then some random non-depositing beginner who has seen the game for a single week. The mass always makes for a nice goal, but this game isn't made for masses, it's catering to a specific playerbase, one which likes to gamble, one which likes virtual-realities and one which likes grinding. All of those have people with a lot of money inside which can literally generate at least ten times the revenue which MA is getting now.
For that the support needs to be up to par, the involvement of MA inside the game needs to be turned up a LOT, and specific channels need to be created to cater to those people, with a better easy of access then having to join pre-created ones which are dead. A global one for socializing, one for housing and vanity stuff and one specifically to help out beginners. It's mind boggling that those simple things haven't been implemented yet, it's like there isn't a single competent game-designer in MA, or the head of MA is simply a tyrant which isn't overly knowledgeable in running a steadily changing business.

And next the playerbase:

That's a hard one, a very hard one. I know with a large playerbase there are definitely several ways of looking at a system. Many have fears of changing it, many want it to change steadily, both aren't being able to be combined.
But, let's look at it from another perspective, one which is more important: Which games held out the longest, and which systems work for the longest time smoothly? It's generally one which can be understood to a degree, or where there can be a hierarchy created, with a few people at the top, coming there by working their way up either through putting effort or ressources into it, both ways are viable.
So what I want to talk about the playerbase is: Don't pamper the company, make their life a living hell if they screw with you. Yes, it's a game, but damn yes, it's one which takes your money, so they have to provide an actual modern way of providing at least the most basic things. Economy without a calculator in-game? What? Funding new parts without even fixing the most basic things? Virtual reality without any way to use it to socialize properly? Come on now guys, that's not something which has to be pointed out, but many seem to be in denial about it in-game as well as in the forums. I don't know the specific reasons, but some of them might simply be the fear of either loosing their only place to play out their personality, or for many it can also be that quite a hefty sum is at stake. But well, both of those would make it even more important to grow some balls, get a spine, and speak up for the darn thing to work properly for many years to come instead of shriveling away steadily. Surely there are a myriad of other reasons as well, but those came to mind the quickest at least for me.
If there is no pressure, there won't be things happening, simple as that, make pressure, more pressure, and a hefty amount extra pressure. Pull out funds worst-case, stop playing, look at the game from the side if you're unhappy with the state of it instead of steadily complaining while you're ignored completely.

As for the wrong directions of development, last but definitely not least.

That one is very easy to explain.
Revamping a money system so it favors beginners more? Are you nuts? It's like stripping the people putting in the most loyality and effort into the game of their status, it's disrespectful. It was build up for years, has worked for years, and would've worked for years if managed properly. It wasn't the loot system, it's the lack of development and broken promises.
Revamp space.
Make sitting animations.
Create social places.
UL drops nearly impossible.
L drops a bit more common so they can be sustained.
Player knowledge in the forefront, not overregulated by hastily thrown together systems.
Pet system expanded.
Housing system fixed.
Broken quests repaired.
Land Areas finally fully implemented.
And all those other long lasting things which were promised but never released. Screw the bullshitting with 'this got in the way', nobody beliefs you, it wasn't a thing before you invented it anyway, so fix the things people care about rather then working on a new side project nobody wants. It brings in thousands of players instead of turning away those few still playing, MA, you got your priorities very wrong, people keep telling you, you won't listen. Well, it's not the players fault the game isn't working, it's yours. Hire people who have knowledge and skills, as well as wanting to put effort into it, and then don't stifle them with concerns over how fixing things could go bad. They are broken, they can hardly get worse anymore as it's beginning to fall apart this time actually. It's a miracle the game has made it this far, it is a great base system, it has soooooo damn much potential. Use it, put effort into it, don't half-ass it anymore, don't trample on the trust of the people and instead actually deliver for a change.

As for all of those things, I would like to hear people write out their problems and suggestions as well, in detail and without trolling. A meaningful talk for a change instead of the common 'ahh but this is that because it's always been, and it won't change'. Well, it needs to, I can speak of the position of someone coming back here, wanting to actually spend several thousand dollars this year to finally get into a proper position with having good equipment and at least keeping even with MU and playing smart, and at coming back I find that not even that's possible anymore as it's literally been removed. In a game which tells me 'come here, make money, we offer the chance to do so! Invest into it' Heck, there is nothing to invest into if there is no progress done from my money invested.

Let me comment on the last part first and up. I play for almost 12 years now but had some longer breaks in the younger past. I came back 6 weeks ago and stayed because i saw my chance to buy the perfect tools i can wish for on my level for under 1k bucks all combined. I used them, i tiered them, i ubah hofed twice with them and bought 2 rings and a tagger. I am broke again, still about 5k ped in the profit, cant wait for the next event. I´ve been in your shoes a hundred times, sometimes you win and often you lose, rarely you find the stop-button at even out. Two similar stories with different end. Keep it up its a tough game.

On developement and how MA handle things. I have that disciple i use to smack up because he doesnt want to graduate unless a planet partner brings out a new mentorship armor. :laugh: Check McCormicks page for the full list of half baked and abandoned systems. Its organic growth where parts may get overshadowed by others, they cripple and die. The strange thing is: how does that affect my "core-business" in EU? Not at all! Oh well maybe the EPIV, which could be called one of the most successful implementations for MA, makes me mine less. All in all i am often surprised how things turn out and sometimes they are good for me.

On the forum-community. Its become silent, often tired, often frustrated, even bitter. I get insulted when i am too overly happy, often i am not. Very far off pampering MA. The community is worn down to that numb warfare pragmatism in the trenches. Not much words left. Veterans and fresh meat. But ingame there are some really lively nice societies that give you a total different perspective.

Pareto principle hmm, to me looks more like 80% depositing and 20% withdraw. People shift from the 80% part to the 20% on a regular basis, but not really often. And people also fall from the 20% down to the 80%s maybe a little more often.
A long long while ago that was done purely by game knowledge, having high skills and being able to offer things to the market which are so rare and sought-after that they were expensive and wanted.
Its still happening! I looted Jag Arms 7 days ago. Sold for ~+410ped in no 24hrs. 107ped esis still do happen. I can assure you we still live in the same universe and even more. There are some more stunts you can make like getting a Karmoosh Lateef pet, killing Kong, Sandking, Purger etc etc.

Sry to paint a totally different picture than yours, nobody asked me to do so. Its still happening and if it is not happening to you, you might be the lucky one next time. Things can change in seconds...
 
There's plenty of problems with EU - there always has been. And the community as a whole have provided enough constructive suggestions that the game could literally be rebuilt from the ground up solely on those suggestions.

MA knows where to get this information and they may even love some of the suggestions. The problem is the money to implement it, and the fear over too much drastic change causing them to ruin their ONLY source of income right now all on the hope of it maybe being more profitable later.

This is why the changes you mention have been slowly happening over the years. They're slowly moving away from focusing on the long time players and the "whales" funding the game to more of a focus on new players and micro transactions funding it. All the best free to play mmo's are not funded by the top 2% dropping $100k a year in it but instead millions each dropping $5 every couple weeks.

Bottom line, MA is in a delicate position right now trying to make this transition while at the same time trying to secure their income and keep existing players happy. This is one of the reasons for venturing out with Compet and Deeptoken. I imagine their hope is that income from other sources will allow them to hedge their bets and take more risks with EU development to transition into full being a micro transaction supported MMO.

The game in a sense is as it always has been - a gamble. Sometimes you win, often you lose, having the knowledge of how the game works can give you a bit of an edge from time to time but it doesn't guarantee a win. But I'll tell ya - I love my odds of winning in Entropia much more than at the casino lol
 
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First of all, EU have plenty of problems, that is 100 % right.
About where to find solutions? Players advices here on PCF?? That is so sad it isnt even fun. I follow this forum for nearly 4 years now,here is 2 maybe 3 persons who can say something of value,when here is discussion about future of game,economy of game etc.. The rest is dumb trolls (sorry if i hurt someones feelings).
Just listen to yourself,MA is doing all that crazy pet/token shit to make more money,to spend those moneys here in EU and make players happy.... I dont know why MA are doing all that shit,but i do know MindArk is business enterprise.
Keep in mind business enterprise!!!
And all business enterprises do one thing,provide revenue for investors. Make people happy is side effect,and not all businesses have such side effect. So MA is trying to sell the product what they got Entropia Universe in this case,those sales are done true our deposits. I used to depo decent and was good customer,but at the given moment I dont like loot system and state of market in EU,so i dont depo and dont cycle my money. I love EU and i want to play and im willing to deposit, but i dont, and here is lots of people like me. That is problem for MindArk right,the rest so called problems,loot system and economy of game is secondary for them. The job of MA is to make me and other players willing to deposit,thats main goal,how they achieve it is other question. They make games system rewarding,they build strong economy in game,or they make me believe i can hit ATH or all of that. It dont mater actually, because now they are failing at that and failing big time.
Loot V1.0 was not perfect,but it was more fun and it made me deposit regularly,because I wanted new/better equipment, I wanted bigger bank roll, I wanted something in EU all the time.
Now when loot V2.0 is out I need to deposit regularly just to sustain my game play, but do I want to deposit? Huge difference between NEED and WANT isnt?
 
Let me comment on the last part first and up. I play for almost 12 years now but had some longer breaks in the younger past. I came back 6 weeks ago and stayed because i saw my chance to buy the perfect tools i can wish for on my level for under 1k bucks all combined. I used them, i tiered them, i ubah hofed twice with them and bought 2 rings and a tagger. I am broke again, still about 5k ped in the profit, cant wait for the next event. I´ve been in your shoes a hundred times, sometimes you win and often you lose, rarely you find the stop-button at even out. Two similar stories with different end. Keep it up its a tough game.

On developement and how MA handle things. I have that disciple i use to smack up because he doesnt want to graduate unless a planet partner brings out a new mentorship armor. :laugh: Check McCormicks page for the full list of half baked and abandoned systems. Its organic growth where parts may get overshadowed by others, they cripple and die. The strange thing is: how does that affect my "core-business" in EU? Not at all! Oh well maybe the EPIV, which could be called one of the most successful implementations for MA, makes me mine less. All in all i am often surprised how things turn out and sometimes they are good for me.

On the forum-community. Its become silent, often tired, often frustrated, even bitter. I get insulted when i am too overly happy, often i am not. Very far off pampering MA. The community is worn down to that numb warfare pragmatism in the trenches. Not much words left. Veterans and fresh meat. But ingame there are some really lively nice societies that give you a total different perspective.

Pareto principle hmm, to me looks more like 80% depositing and 20% withdraw. People shift from the 80% part to the 20% on a regular basis, but not really often. And people also fall from the 20% down to the 80%s maybe a little more often.
Its still happening! I looted Jag Arms 7 days ago. Sold for ~+410ped in no 24hrs. 107ped esis still do happen. I can assure you we still live in the same universe and even more. There are some more stunts you can make like getting a Karmoosh Lateef pet, killing Kong, Sandking, Purger etc etc.

Sry to paint a totally different picture than yours, nobody asked me to do so. Its still happening and if it is not happening to you, you might be the lucky one next time. Things can change in seconds...

Yes, I can absolutely understand the point from where you're coming from. My initial post was quite frustrated, and the day afterwards it's still a bit frustrating, but I've taken everything posted into perspective.

There were some very good comments inside it, and some which were plainly wrong sadly, from a standpoint with tested facts versus only personal experience the facts tend to win after all, and that's a good thing.

So for your statements: Playing this game 12 years I imagine you've got a rather large PED-Roll, not in liquidity, but spent mostly in items while leaving enough on the side to do the things you want in-game. That's good, and how it should be handled after all, and it's even better to hear that one can make a steady progress. The big question on my side is: Are you playing for fun? For profit? Or a mixture where different things you do are clearly seen as either profitable or just doing it for the heck of it with another goal in mind then PED?
Those are a few important questions. As if you're doing it mostly for the fun and expect to loose out while not playing overly eco in every case, loosing out for long periods of time is definitely ok, and even expected, the same mentality I share whenever I go and hunt something just for completing a mission instead of MU. I sometimes want to simply have fun as well, and I expect my fun to come at a cost, just reasonable.
When I don't expect losses though is hunting mobs which have shown to contribute a surprisingly high MU setup, and then get enough of the loot to at least sustain 102% return AFTER MU, TT value isn't ever going to cut above 100% long-term after all. That's not happening anymore, I'm now actually loosing at friggin Halix, despite their 1500% MU item inside which doesn't even drop too rarely. But why do I make a loss? 'Loot events' which are basically shrapnel, 'Oh, here you have 0,01 ped of shrapnel, and by the way, have another 0,2 ped shrapnel in the same drop!'. That one is a clear indicator I formerly would've gotten MU loot, not anymore though. Why? Damn new 'looter skills' and flattening the return curve so much that absolutely incompetent players literally empty the pool by doing all the wrong things, still returning decent with it. Why? Does MA have to babysit them? Are people too dumb to literally learn base game mechanics? I mean.. it's not so hard. Don't wear armor worth 2k PED at punys, don't overkill, use a gun with high damage per pec (formerly), try to avoid healing and sell your stuff to other players instead of TT. Done, you got your common decent player finished, now it's only which mob and which area, as well as when to actually sell things and which, and boom, you were in the profit league instead of the loosing one. That's not enough anymore, now we have to add 'input 2000 dollar for looter skill leveling' first, making new people loose even worse without any chance to 'catch up' so to speak while also screwing over the old playing folks who stayed here since a decade and have never been listened to.
Since the beginning of loot 2.0 I have kept at the lower range of mobs I can hunt, which is generally not very high, trying out all sorts of compositions to at least not loose out steadily. That was possible before, a smart beginner could actually turn over a profit quickly. Not much definitely, but he could. Right now literally all revenue ways for that are closed.

There's plenty of problems with EU - there always has been. And the community as a whole have provided enough constructive suggestions that the game could literally be rebuilt from the ground up solely on those suggestions.

MA knows where to get this information and they may even love some of the suggestions. The problem is the money to implement it, and the fear over too much drastic change causing them to ruin their ONLY source of income right now all on the hope of it maybe being more profitable later.

This is why the changes you mention have been slowly happening over the years. They're slowly moving away from focusing on the long time players and the "whales" funding the game to more of a focus on new players and micro transactions funding it. All the best free to play mmo's are not funded by the top 2% dropping $100k a year in it but instead millions each dropping $5 every couple weeks.

Bottom line, MA is in a delicate position right now trying to make this transition while at the same time trying to secure their income and keep existing players happy. This is one of the reasons for venturing out with Compet and Deeptoken. I imagine their hope is that income from other sources will allow them to hedge their bets and take more risks with EU development to transition into full being a micro transaction supported MMO.

The game in a sense is as it always has been - a gamble. Sometimes you win, often you lose, having the knowledge of how the game works can give you a bit of an edge from time to time but it doesn't guarantee a win. But I'll tell ya - I love my odds of winning in Entropia much more than at the casino lol

Actually, data showed that to be not true. The majority of money intake is done by those 'whales' and games tend to cater towards them. Guild Wars 2, large amounts of new vanity items every months, get's bought like fresh bread. Trove, a sort of Minecraft clone in adventure style instead, steady new influx of microtransactions, get's played well. I could go on with the list, and specific examples like that aren't hard to find, as well as literally every mobile game living off of large paying few people. Those 5$ a Month people are just the top of the iceberg volume-wise. The only reason you shouldn't screw them away is to make those 'whales' look good in comparison, showing that there is something one can aspire towards through making it possible without inputting ludicrous amounts of money but instead time&effort. Since nearly nobody seems to want to invest that though, the top keeps being thin in any game which has to be played over the long-term. That's not a bad thing, quite the contrary, it's good.

Also, to the statement MA is slowly changing towards microtransactions is definitely true though. But they ruined that system actually! The crit rings are literally worthless when taken a close look at in the new system, they are a hindrance even unless you hunt mobs for groups, which isn't feasable with decent loot composition anymore anyway, at least not if you expect any sort of decent return over time or gamble for specific items. Yes, the game has always had a gambling element, but a decade ago those elements were just a small layer underneath the personal knowledge of the playerbase, since then it has been flattened steadily over and over again. TT weapons being made exactly the same over all points, ok... this one makes sense at least to a degree. Introduction of shrapnel.. why? It made the market collapse initially. Putting inside Explosive Projectile BP's. As if you didn't have enough reason to be called a casino, now we actually made it one there. And the list goes on towards loot 2.0, another non-progressive way of screwing everyone over.
Formerly the game was a high-stake high-yield playing field. Know your stuff and be successful, don't know it and loose everything, a few people could pay their bills with it by playing. What more incentive for any aspiring gamer then this? All of them are gone since years, taking the whole amount of the playerbase yearning for such a goal with them, putting in hefty sums of money every month and instead dwindling it down to those '10$ a month' playerbase. Yeah, we got 3 or 4 times the active playerbase, but most don't deposit anyway, and the other part is largely sitting at max 50$. Formerly even I as a very new player back then knew several people investing up to 1000$ a month to reach a goal they set themself. That's sustaining 20 of the upper range of common depositers, that's not a small loss.
Also, in another perspective, people could actually see how a market was driven from a (back then, though in the gist not different now) rather small amount of items in it. Actually learning to trade in a game which offered them a chance to see how a real-cash-economy turned their gears steadily to keep the market half-way stable. That's gone since a while as well. Sweat is worthless, fruit is nearly worthless, new players get screwed by loot composition in general, older players get screwed by loot composition by cutting into their wins. Everyone needs to play a lot longer to achieve the same numbers then before with a single exception: Apes, skill-lacking people who weren't even able to run in a raid at classic WoW times, having to push 4 buttons in a specific row while in-between doing a few small and short tasks to make it a success, all together under 10 things to remember. Those are now getting all the support with the new system, and those people don't have any money as they aren't smart enough to generate it outside of EU, so they won't generate it inside of EU. Meaning they stay longer, deposit seldom and with small values while the guy earning 5k$ irl and interested in a complex game with a complex system stays away since it's now just 'a waste of time' compared to before.

First of all, EU have plenty of problems, that is 100 % right.
About where to find solutions? Players advices here on PCF?? That is so sad it isnt even fun. I follow this forum for nearly 4 years now,here is 2 maybe 3 persons who can say something of value,when here is discussion about future of game,economy of game etc.. The rest is dumb trolls (sorry if i hurt someones feelings).
Just listen to yourself,MA is doing all that crazy pet/token shit to make more money,to spend those moneys here in EU and make players happy.... I dont know why MA are doing all that shit,but i do know MindArk is business enterprise.
Keep in mind business enterprise!!!
And all business enterprises do one thing,provide revenue for investors. Make people happy is side effect,and not all businesses have such side effect. So MA is trying to sell the product what they got Entropia Universe in this case,those sales are done true our deposits. I used to depo decent and was good customer,but at the given moment I dont like loot system and state of market in EU,so i dont depo and dont cycle my money. I love EU and i want to play and im willing to deposit, but i dont, and here is lots of people like me. That is problem for MindArk right,the rest so called problems,loot system and economy of game is secondary for them. The job of MA is to make me and other players willing to deposit,thats main goal,how they achieve it is other question. They make games system rewarding,they build strong economy in game,or they make me believe i can hit ATH or all of that. It dont mater actually, because now they are failing at that and failing big time.
Loot V1.0 was not perfect,but it was more fun and it made me deposit regularly,because I wanted new/better equipment, I wanted bigger bank roll, I wanted something in EU all the time.
Now when loot V2.0 is out I need to deposit regularly just to sustain my game play, but do I want to deposit? Huge difference between NEED and WANT isnt?

Yes, exactly. Many people just linger or don't do anything while formerly hunting day by day. No incentive to start playing, no incentive to enjoy a swirl as it's very often shrapnel entirely and very often low MU loot like oil residue. Why the heck is that even there? It's not a crafting material, it's a leftover for it, put it into the right system! As well as shrapnel, has the whole solar system of EU been bombed into oblivion and all things running around are shredded to bloody pulps or what is going on? I can understand wood, I can understand paint (extracted from their parts) or even items from former people who got eaten, therefore rare. But Shrapnel? All it does it letting non-depo people hunt longer before they leave as they realize there isn't any way for them to profit with a stale market, a stale loot system and a literally dead crafting system, which also means the miners are screwed.
 
And now imagine that you take all the time spent by whining here and do some ingame loot composition research instead ;)
 
And now imagine that you take all the time spent by whining here and do some ingame loot composition research instead ;)

What do you think I did and why I whine here? Think it's free to do that? I had several venues years ago, then they got closed. I redid the whole process, finding new venues by investing my time and effort, then they got closed again by introducing some broken systems which look nice but are absolutely disgusting when taken a closer look at.
MA has a very good way of introducing nice looking ideas which turn out to come with a baggage of strings attached that ruin the prospects of revenue further then they create them.

Think quickly here:
If loot composition is decided by skill then it means beginners are screwed compared to ubers.
If ubers see a drop in return, it means beginners see an even bigger one.
If beginners find no way to actually make it profitable for them at all, everyone will say 'you can just loose' instead of many saying 'sure, I profit regularly with 20k ped cycled per month'.
If you only hear those things and come because you want the option to profit, you leave again.
If only people are here which play for fun, the costs of the game need to be lowered tremendously.
If that's the case, why not move towards a similar grinding game which is more modern?

See the problem there? It's not so hard when thought through step by step. If something is missing in those and I made a mistake, go ahead and enlighten me, I'm all ears, and I also said 'that's a good idea' about some suggestions, or things I got wrong in this thread already. So be free, spouting unfunded things in itself isn't helping anyone at all, definitely not the pissed of veterans, nor the pissed of beginners, nor MA in changing the system in a meaningful way.
 
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