Problems in EU, as well as solutions, discussion definitely wanted.

First of all, never speak of 'us', you're one person, it's arrogant to speak for a group, doesn't shine a good light on you. There is no 'us' you're speaking of since first of all I'm a part of the group of players, and you have no definition of how many people belong into the 'group' thinking the same as you versus the group thinking the same as me. So if my group is bigger, will you do the same then? Shut up and do as told? Responsibility and actions always come in two ways, otherwise it's just childish non-socialized behavior.

My sincerest apologies for using "us".
Apparently I accidentally offended you which was not my intention.

I'll leave you to writing your personal psychological essays here and hope it will make you happy and bring you the satisfaction you cannot get out of the game anymore.
To bad but hey, I cant change it for you.

And since you probably leave anyways as you wrote, nice to have met you this short time and all the best with your future life.

:wave:
 
First of all, never speak of 'us', you're one person, it's arrogant to speak for a group, doesn't shine a good light on you. There is no 'us' you're speaking of since first of all I'm a part of the group of players, and you have no definition of how many people belong into the 'group' thinking the same as you versus the group thinking the same as me. So if my group is bigger, will you do the same then? Shut up and do as told? Responsibility and actions always come in two ways, otherwise it's just childish non-socialized behavior.

Yes, the bar for it has risen, not my goals changed, actually, my prime-goal is absolutely impossible to reach right now, it wasn't for the entire life of Entropia, while it has grown and flourished, up until now. So it has grown, but you take it away, why should I stay silent?

To 'being possible to profit' read the entire topic again for that please, you're ignoring my statements, therefore it's sadly not worth putting up a discussion further unless you take them into perspective.

And don't know why you react. I restated the thing you said and put it into the proper term for how it's being called psychologically. If that isn't what you like to hear then that's called 'denial'. Facts versus opinions, facts win.
If you want to make things better then point exactly out which points aren't good, and point out which points of the posts are good, take the time and effort instead of saying you do, that's different. I'm answering to every single post, to every single argument in this thread for a reason, to give the respect people deserve to everyone unless they actively state that they're not interested in it but only for attention, or just to speak against something.
And yes, it will, the alternative is shutting up and not talking about problems at all, and since discussion is a process of thinking, it's stopping the thinking, therefore the generation of solutions, and therefore any meaningful way of resolving existing problems. It's basic psychological knowledge, basic, learn it. It's important for your life.
What i'm doing is simply making it transparent instead of hiding things. I don't tell a beginner to stay when he tells me 'how can I hunt profitable in the future' because there is simply no way for me to see it. I tell a beginner how to make PED if they ask, I tell them where to go if they want specific materials, want to know about game mechanics. But I can only tell them 'I don't know if you should bother staying, I haven't found any way, if you don't either leave if you want to profit in a meaningful way which lets you pay for 2-3 meals in a restaurant a month.'
That's called being truthful versus deceptive. It's an active lie otherwise, and I'm not going down that road, far worse then telling it up-front instead of milking someone with wrong expectations, that's despiceable, appaling.

Yes, 2.0 was a strong shift, one from a 'global payout pool' to a 'personal payout pool' since all TT returns now are measured by the exact amount you put out, meaning it's impossible to diversify between someone who is extremely eco equipment vise versus someone who is absolutely horrible with it by exact 7% MU materials return. The other parts are playstyle and skills. Skills was never a factor before, and it's a bad one, giving an unfair reward to players just for simply being there longer instead of doing anything different actively, it comes with time. Playstyle is relevant as to not overkill, kill quickly, don't heal if possible and wear the right armor, simple as that.
If you do all that nicely as a new player you still can't profit permanently, as an old player you can barely. The amount of shrapnel returned has risen massively which is only good for MA (greedy move) and never for the playerbase for longer periods of time. Removing ammo would've been fine, adapting the system to no more no-looters as well, finished, the other things were added with adherent effects if taken apart piece by piece. Well, you need the ability to deduct mathematically which ones are positive and which negative, I have done that, you seemingly not yet, otherwise you wouldn't state wrong facts versus opinions.

As for the last part: could've been a simple example of before Loot 2.0, it's close-minded. Yes, I don't need to know the revenues from right now, I just want an example, if you can't or won't provide one it's the same as simply not giving one.

No, I'll sooner or later leave since there are options for other universes to life in, and those offer more, like I stated already, until the clear problems are solved, or at least something is done to try and remedy them there won't be any further deposits from my side, I actually regret for the first time depositing before returning and looking closely at the state of the game, would've saved me quite a bit. And unless before I don't recommend the game to other people anymore, the contrary at the moment if they see the marketing strategy like it is, I tell them to stay away since it's not true anymore, sorry, but I don't lie to my friends, they are worth more then that.

The lack of understanding EUs system is speaking from every second of your sentences. The loudness of your inner voice is so ear-piercing, THERE CANNOT BE anything else than what you think. To vent and to channel it you need to write a gazillion words. Siegmund Freud had a word for this "thinker-psychosis". Don´t front my socm8 dude, because he is an expert and he speaks for "The Ministry", we are well respected, sometimes hated around these parts of virtual reality. His abilities to make ped out of almost nothing is mindblowing and he is a true master of adapting. You are not!
 
Menthol, thanks for the neg rep on my apologies.
The frustration must run deep into you.

I've been so kind to return the favor since I felt a bit guilty towards you.

Sorry again for my words, and sorry for you feeling so miserable that you want to leave the game.
It's always a sad moment to see people leave.


And Parlog, thanks for the kind words :ahh:



Now, back to work, because I've lost to much time already reading this thread .
 
Ok, then let me make another approach, and entirely different one, pure market approach, no psychology, no clear examples, just pure examples which are abstracted. And please point out any part of the line which is wrong, with examples, without I can hardly react on it.

Ok, so what drives a market? Supply and Demand, nothing else. It's a competition, that's clear for anyone who knows anything about markets.
Now, what is the driving force then? Supplying for a demand. Ok so far.

In Entropia this is Hunters and miners supplying for crafters to fill their demands, easy still, nothing complex, otherwise no MU.

So, who is the first to leave in a market when something goes wrong? The top people, as they always have another option to get profit, those are the first, then lower and lower down the hierarchy. Also still easy.

Who provides the most input of materials that can be cycled in a market? The biggest contributors.

Now we take those two concepts together. Biggest contributors leave, so therefore the supply in the market dwindles.
Next step is that The crafters would usually need to pay more for their supply, therefore rising the prices for the end-product, which in return is a functioning system.
So what stops the prices to rise properly? If there is no demand for the end-product anymore, this is the UL versus L item problem. If someone owns an item which doesn't break and is similar to something which breaks, it's just clear this person will use the non-breaking one instead of paying steadily for a breaking thing, just logic.

Ok, so next part, when we have those people now putting items into the market steadily, without taking any items out of it, there begins to exist a surplus. This as written above lowers demand, therefore prices.
So changing this system from before, lowering the impact of specific items in the return of the loot makes UL items even more likely to be used since the L counterparts are just not feasable after MU.
So if nobody buys them anymore, the price crumbles as there is no demand.
If the price crumbles crafter loose money and don't buy as much from hunters and miners.
If hunter and miner can't sell their wares anymore the problem is that despite lowered initiative costs, the net cost rises.

That's called a market crisis. That's what I want to make clear, nothing else.

What are solutions to such a crisis?
Making breaking items wanted, which needs changes at existing items or systems.
How it can be done, I offered a few solutions, and I'll gladly adapt them as well.

The knowledge that there is a crisis is paramount to the fact that something needs to be changed though, therefore 90% of my discussion is making people realize that it is, while arguing. The people having realized will only see this and say 'no shit dude, great deduction, saying this since a while'.

No matter how frustrated someone is, there is still knowledge put out in their writing and words, putting the pieces together in union is leading to goals, denying there even is a problem isn't a solution. The goal is to create a system where people can have a market, that's what Entropia is, a virtual-reality-market.

Also, your standard shouldn't be put out from the best, but needs to cater to the mass, and @Parlog, I think your socmate can speak for himself, he doesn't need big brother to defend him, unless you're wanting to make clear he isn't capable for it, which I hope you don't.
 
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Next step is that The crafters would usually need to pay more for their supply, therefore rising the prices for the end-product, which in return is a functioning system.
So what stops the prices to rise properly? If there is no demand for the end-product anymore, this is the UL versus L item problem. If someone owns an item which doesn't break and is similar to something which breaks, it's just clear this person will use the non-breaking one instead of paying steadily for a breaking thing, just logic.
...

That's called a market crisis. That's what I want to make clear, nothing else.

What are solutions to such a crisis?
Making breaking items wanted, which needs changes at existing items or systems.
How it can be done, I offered a few solutions, and I'll gladly adapt them as well.

The UL/L issue has been getting balanced over the last years, look at the non SiB guns, most are awful dpp and eff. the more recent SiB items like Corrosive Dagger, xent x3, good dpp but average eff. MA introduced the Armatrix guns with eff & dpp that destroy 80-90% of the UL guns out there. yeah they are 125-140% MU but they sell pretty well at that price. this will be the start of MA's fixes im sure.

MU on the oils/extractors bottomed out. MA changed the loot system on caly, MU rose between 2-7% on oils alone, before settling around 103%. Extractors/paints went from 105% to 140%+.

Balancing is the issue as you touch on, you can't have hunting MU without inflating the MU on guns. in which people will retreat to poorer UL items. and you can't really do something to negatively affect UL users as the fallout will be massive. just need to intoduce better options, like the Armatrix

Balancing takes perfection, and recently they have taken some good steps, and some awful ones like nano cubes, no ring decay, flying vehicles that barely decay. but its no where a market crisis
 
The UL/L issue has been getting balanced over the last years, look at the non SiB guns, most are awful dpp and eff. the more recent SiB items like Corrosive Dagger, xent x3, good dpp but average eff. MA introduced the Armatrix guns with eff & dpp that destroy 80-90% of the UL guns out there. yeah they are 125-140% MU but they sell pretty well at that price. this will be the start of MA's fixes im sure.

MU on the oils/extractors bottomed out. MA changed the loot system on caly, MU rose between 2-7% on oils alone, before settling around 103%. Extractors/paints went from 105% to 140%+.

Balancing is the issue as you touch on, you can't have hunting MU without inflating the MU on guns. in which people will retreat to poorer UL items. and you can't really do something to negatively affect UL users as the fallout will be massive. just need to intoduce better options, like the Armatrix

Balancing takes perfection, and recently they have taken some good steps, and some awful ones like nano cubes, no ring decay, flying vehicles that barely decay. but its no where a market crisis

Yeah, that's true, especially about the fallout. I absolutely agree that those changes have been necessary, and are a step in the right direction.
MA is just tip-toeing around the existing problem though, one which should've been fixed ages ago, and that was the introduction of very eco UL guns which outrange nearly anything else. The direction is good to ruin them a bit, but a more decisive blow like 'upkeep' in some manner would've solved it ages ago.

Also, the timing of the introduction of loot 2.0 was just extremely bad, with an already functioning system.. sure, it's good. But right now the solutions for living inside it are just very small, far smaller then they had been ever since the game was put into existance. Had the problem been solved beforehand then we would see the change of the market directly, like this they dwindled the returns of the 'common' player down once more instead of giving them a level playing field. It's a viable solution at a later stage, not the one which was introduced right now, the market hasn't adapted to the new system, and far too many items are left unused with it being redone right now, slimming down the options one can take.

Like I said, MA is great in making things better just to ruin them right afterwards, impatience and fear of loosing existing players overweights the reasoning to fix it to a proper state fully. So what if 90% of the big players leave tomorrow as long as a good campain is started which shows a 'relaunch' and brings in people? The market stabilizes itself if it's in a working order, until then they have to life with whatever state it is in and can't take such drastic but often successful matters. Deeptoken showed how much people believe in them after the huge failure with ComPet. They are just atrocious with their timing.
 
Ok, then let me make another approach, and entirely different one, pure market approach, no psychology, no clear examples, just pure examples which are abstracted. And please point out any part of the line which is wrong, with examples, without I can hardly react on it.

Ok, so what drives a market? Supply and Demand, nothing else. It's a competition, that's clear for anyone who knows anything about markets.
Now, what is the driving force then? Supplying for a demand. Ok so far.

In Entropia this is Hunters and miners supplying for crafters to fill their demands, easy still, nothing complex, otherwise no MU.

So, who is the first to leave in a market when something goes wrong? The top people, as they always have another option to get profit, those are the first, then lower and lower down the hierarchy. Also still easy.

Who provides the most input of materials that can be cycled in a market? The biggest contributors.

Now we take those two concepts together. Biggest contributors leave, so therefore the supply in the market dwindles.
Next step is that The crafters would usually need to pay more for their supply, therefore rising the prices for the end-product, which in return is a functioning system.
So what stops the prices to rise properly? If there is no demand for the end-product anymore, this is the UL versus L item problem. If someone owns an item which doesn't break and is similar to something which breaks, it's just clear this person will use the non-breaking one instead of paying steadily for a breaking thing, just logic.

Ok, so next part, when we have those people now putting items into the market steadily, without taking any items out of it, there begins to exist a surplus. This as written above lowers demand, therefore prices.
So changing this system from before, lowering the impact of specific items in the return of the loot makes UL items even more likely to be used since the L counterparts are just not feasable after MU.
So if nobody buys them anymore, the price crumbles as there is no demand.
If the price crumbles crafter loose money and don't buy as much from hunters and miners.
If hunter and miner can't sell their wares anymore the problem is that despite lowered initiative costs, the net cost rises.

That's called a market crisis. That's what I want to make clear, nothing else.

What are solutions to such a crisis?
Making breaking items wanted, which needs changes at existing items or systems.
How it can be done, I offered a few solutions, and I'll gladly adapt them as well.

The knowledge that there is a crisis is paramount to the fact that something needs to be changed though, therefore 90% of my discussion is making people realize that it is, while arguing. The people having realized will only see this and say 'no shit dude, great deduction, saying this since a while'.

No matter how frustrated someone is, there is still knowledge put out in their writing and words, putting the pieces together in union is leading to goals, denying there even is a problem isn't a solution. The goal is to create a system where people can have a market, that's what Entropia is, a virtual-reality-market.

Also, your standard shouldn't be put out from the best, but needs to cater to the mass, and @Parlog, I think your socmate can speak for himself, he doesn't need big brother to defend him, unless you're wanting to make clear he isn't capable for it, which I hope you don't.

Do you think you tell me or the other 100 hardheads here on the forum something new about economics? Question is how did supply and demand adapt to the current situation and you show no sign of understanding it. Instead you are catering us with dull most basic principles of economy in a baby-speech way. Wtf? As if

and thx for -rep
 
Do you think you tell me or the other 100 hardheads here on the forum something new about economics? Question is how did supply and demand adapt to the current situation and you show no sign of understanding it. Instead you are catering us with dull most basic principles of economy in a baby-speech way. Wtf? As if

and thx for -rep

Yes, I can enlighten you if you want, so here it comes:

The new items are superior to the ones which have been existing before, therefore lowering demand of the old guns.
This in retrospect leads to a lowered demand of the respective materials needed for all blueprints related to those.
This in another step makes a large array of mobs 'non-profitable' as their MU values don't rise expected with the implementation of the new systems.
The correlation of the items mixed with with the minimum level requirement of mobs shows that it overrepresents mobs in the range of lvl 1-35, which are beginner levels, has a few exceptions at mid-range mobs and also some at high-end mobs. It's the beginners loosing out with it the most, the people needed to make the game bigger then it is.
Therefore I put together the logic deduction that the implementation of the new looting system was therefore prematurely as it needed more adaptions to intake those items which are overrepresented in smaller mobs, especially hides and basic enhancer materials make up a large amount of theoretically profitable materials, hides haven't seen an increase in MU, more a decrease in demand while enhancers have stayed roughly the same.

Also I suggest not starting to be insulting to people who haven't even written with you for extended periods of time, it shows a lack of aility to adjust to different situations, also, I suggest you giving examples instead of spouting random ideologies again, you give a bad example for your society. If everyone inside it is like you've shown me today I wouldn't want to do business with you as long as I can possibly avoid it.
Learn decent behavior first, then open your mouth again, your behavior is appalling, it resembles someone who has never mentally grown up. Everyone can have a bad day, or be pissed about something, but showing major narcissistic behavior by putting yourself above others isn't how anyone who is civilized should speak.
 
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Yes, I can enlighten you if you want, so here it comes:

The new items are superior to the ones which have been existing before, therefore lowering demand of the old guns.
This in retrospect leads to a lowered demand of the respective materials needed for all blueprints related to those.
This in another step makes a large array of mobs 'non-profitable' as their MU values don't rise expected with the implementation of the new systems.
The correlation of the items mixed with with the minimum level requirement of mobs shows that it overrepresents mobs in the range of lvl 1-35, which are beginner levels, has a few exceptions at mid-range mobs and also some at high-end mobs. It's the beginners loosing out with it the most, the people needed to make the game bigger then it is.
Therefore I put together the logic deduction that the implementation of the new looting system was therefore prematurely as it needed more adaptions to intake those items which are overrepresented in smaller mobs, especially hides and basic enhancer materials make up a large amount of theoretically profitable materials, hides haven't seen an increase in MU, more a decrease in demand while enhancers have stayed roughly the same.

Also I suggest not starting to be insulting to people who haven't even written with you, also, I suggest you giving examples instead of spouting random ideologies again, you give a bad example for your society. If everyone inside it is like you've shown me today I wouldn't want to do business with you as long as I can possibly avoid it.
Learn decent behavior first, then open your mouth again, your behavior is appalling, it resembles someone who has never mentally grown up. Everyone can have a bad day, or be pissed about something, but going around to insult people who aren't even in the discussion, as well as showing major narcissistic behavior by putting yourself above others isn't how anyone who is civilized should speak.

oh yes man you got me going haha, sry for my uppermost incompetence and respectlessness and such. I am at a point where i can give you only 1 more advice: talk less click click click more and in 4 years we talk again


Par over and out
 
Also I suggest not starting to be insulting to people who haven't even written with you for extended periods of time, it shows a lack of aility to adjust to different situations, also, I suggest you giving examples instead of spouting random ideologies again, you give a bad example for your society. If everyone inside it is like you've shown me today I wouldn't want to do business with you as long as I can possibly avoid it.
Learn decent behavior first, then open your mouth again, your behavior is appalling, it resembles someone who has never mentally grown up. Everyone can have a bad day, or be pissed about something, but showing major narcissistic behavior by putting yourself above others isn't how anyone who is civilized should speak.

whahahaha, you were watching in the mirror while you were typing this?
:lolup:

*edit* wait, i will explain:

Mentol said:

Also I suggest not starting to be insulting to people who haven't even written with you for extended periods of time: Check! yup, menthol

also, I suggest you giving examples instead of spouting random ideologies again: check! yup, menthol


Learn decent behavior first, then open your mouth again
: check! yup, menthol


it resembles someone who has never mentally grown up
: check! yup, menthol


Everyone can have a bad day, or be pissed about something, but showing major narcissistic behavior by putting yourself above others isn't how anyone who is civilized should speak. : check! yup, menthol

congratulations, you scored 5 out of 5 of your own points!

Well done!
 
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whahahaha, you were watching in the mirror while you were typing this?
:lolup:

*edit* wait, i will explain:

Mentol said:

Also I suggest not starting to be insulting to people who haven't even written with you for extended periods of time: Check! yup, menthol

also, I suggest you giving examples instead of spouting random ideologies again: check! yup, menthol


Learn decent behavior first, then open your mouth again
: check! yup, menthol


it resembles someone who has never mentally grown up
: check! yup, menthol


Everyone can have a bad day, or be pissed about something, but showing major narcissistic behavior by putting yourself above others isn't how anyone who is civilized should speak. : check! yup, menthol

congratulations, you scored 5 out of 5 of your own points!

Well done!

Haven't put myself above others, bad day, yes, definitely check, as well as frustration. From the get go of the discussion I focused on putting out examples with every post, others haven't but wanted their viewpoints to be adapted. That's just not possible without proper examples underlining them.

Also, I haven't insulted either of you two, just reacted on the passive aggressive behavior or generalization, both bad things in general, and especially the second easy to do. It's surprising that only a few people write inside a forum topic, most here giving proper examples, showing care for what has been told or at least trying to put their points forwards.

Haven't seen those with you 2 thought sadly. Especially Parlog, who even described himself negatively as a hardhead, admitting he isn't even willing to take into account what other people say rather then keeping at his own train of thought.
So, if you actually want to say something about the matter at hand instead of arguing for the sake of arguing then go on, otherwise I'll ignore the following posts if they don't have anything on-topic in it, I've pulled it along far enough, too far and shouldn't even have started it in some manners. That's also called learning, seeing how someone has done things wrong personally and admitting it, now I only wonder if you can do that too for the future.
 
Haven't put myself above others, bad day, yes, definitely check, as well as frustration. From the get go of the discussion I focused on putting out examples with every post, others haven't but wanted their viewpoints to be adapted. That's just not possible without proper examples underlining them.

Also, I haven't insulted either of you two, just reacted on the passive aggressive behavior or generalization, both bad things in general, and especially the second easy to do. It's surprising that only a few people write inside a forum topic, most here giving proper examples, showing care for what has been told or at least trying to put their points forwards.

Haven't seen those with you 2 thought sadly. Especially Parlog, who even described himself negatively as a hardhead, admitting he isn't even willing to take into account what other people say rather then keeping at his own train of thought.
So, if you actually want to say something about the matter at hand instead of arguing for the sake of arguing then go on, otherwise I'll ignore the following posts if they don't have anything on-topic in it, I've pulled it along far enough, too far and shouldn't even have started it in some manners. That's also called learning, seeing how someone has done things wrong personally and admitting it, now I only wonder if you can do that too for the future.

you enrich the fun factor thats for sure, i am hardcore for that! Dude if you would put all that energy in the game youd gonna turn out as the second Jimmy. I respect that
 
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Where is thw announcement from the Easter Event .... its almost 18 april
 
, bad day, yes, definitely check, as well as frustration.

very chivalrous of you to admit this!
:thumbup:

Also, I haven't insulted either of you two, just reacted on the passive aggressive behavior or generalization, both bad things in general, and especially the second easy to do.

Well actually you were insulting. Blaming me being arrogant for using the word "us" while you yourself are constantly generalizing your problems onto "US"!
Also attacking Parlog and patronizing me in the process.


Haven't seen those with you 2 thought sadly. Especially Parlog, who even described himself negatively as a hardhead, admitting he isn't even willing to take into account what other people say rather then keeping at his own train of thought.
So, if you actually want to say something about the matter at hand instead of arguing for the sake of arguing then go on, otherwise I'll ignore the following posts if they don't have anything on-topic in it, I've pulled it along far enough, too far and shouldn't even have started it in some manners. That's also called learning, seeing how someone has done things wrong personally and admitting it, now I only wonder if you can do that too for the future.

I gave you many points about how I view and play the game, telling you it's not as broken as you say it is, but you're simply not willing to listen.

So what's there to discuss with you then?
 
very chivalrous of you to admit this!
:thumbup:



Well actually you were insulting. Blaming me being arrogant for using the word "us" while you yourself are constantly generalizing your problems onto "US"!
Also attacking Parlog and patronizing me in the process.




I gave you many points about how I view and play the game, telling you it's not as broken as you say it is, but you're simply not willing to listen.

So what's there to discuss with you then?

Ok, sorry for that generalization on my part then, I didn't realize it, and that's not something I should've pointed out then, true enough, I can see that.

As for the viewpoints. Yeah, I know how your perspective is, I'm just coming from another one. I've played this game since a while as well, never with a high skill value rather then an investor though, and I always tested out different mobs which give return, as well as places for mining which are profitable, and have always turned it into one after a while. That testing was very expensive, and very time consuming.

Since I always could only reach the lower mob range because of that reason, but had access to the spreadsheets of other people in different ranges of skill, I saw the difference in how it was playing - and especially paying - out over time when doing certain tasks at certain places, that's what a society and contacts are for after all, trying to get the work done together which is just too much for a single person after all.

It's not that I don't know any sorts of ways to profit anymore, they are definitely existing, but they have dwindled by a lot, not only in amount, but also in altitude. Meaning while formerly I knew of some ways to get 1k ped per month if you were behind it for a while, now I only know of a few ways turning 1/10 of the profit at max, and neither I personally, nor the people I know have found anything bigger then that, and even worse, no way to make it sustainable for more then 2-3 people at max for a few days rather then an actual place to put effort into long-term.

Also, the place from where I'm coming from, roughly lvl 25 in my hunting skill as I was mostly a trader for a long while, turning profit this way, I actually can't find for the hell of it any place which is in my range where I can even think about staying at least in the game with less then 6% loss. That doesn't sound much, but when turning over 1k ped it's already 60 ped, which is 1/3 of a monthly fee for any other game. Do that a week and well... the month is gone, intense playing just isn't possible this way, or at least I've found as much.

I don't want to know where there is profit to be made in lower ranges, able to keep a beginner from investing 5k PED before before reaching any range to fare better, I just want to know IF there is one, because despite extensive testing on Arkadia, I have yet to find any single positive paying venue, while formerly I could name 4 in that range alone. I don't speak about getting paid in the positive even, just staying at 100% after MU steadily so I can build up skills finally, since as I said, I was coming back with the intention of not investing, or trading, but to actually play the game properly unlike I ever did before. I was always on the side of theory-crafting, overly eco play, working out models and seeing people profiting from it, as well as seeing myself profiting from giving the knowledge away since I was their personal trader to keep it running permanently, making a small cut from the profits as well.

Coming back I expected the markets to have shifted, but actually not finding any way for a beginner to stay above water is just off-putting. I know one has to invest something to reach something, but it's always either been time and effort, or money. Not both combined. Most people don't invest either, so it's expected they loose, I just don't expect to do it despite putting it into the game.

Also, I don't know how much this part is coming from those looter skills, will it change when I level up further? Or will it stay the same at those mobs despite it? It's just such a huge unknown factor, and despite asking around for a while nobody could even give me a resemblance of an answer about this. With equipment we at least know, it's exactly 7% between 0% effectiveness and 100% effectiveness. But how much are those looter skills? 10% at lvl 100? 20%? 40%? Even 10% is massive if you take it into perspective, with how many 'double' Shrapnel loots I get without overkilling is literally killing my profit away completely. I steadily make minus now, and I actually don't see a way out of it without investing more then a year worth of full priced games.

It was mostly ranting here, but the questions I ask are still something which are lingering in my mind. Some will be found out with further testing definitely, but some... I have absolutely no reasonable way to get the necessary data on them myself, and they are sometimes big unknowns, like the looter skills.
 
Also, I don't know how much this part is coming from those looter skills, will it change when I level up further? Or will it stay the same at those mobs despite it? It's just such a huge unknown factor, and despite asking around for a while nobody could even give me a resemblance of an answer about this. With equipment we at least know, it's exactly 7% between 0% effectiveness and 100% effectiveness. But how much are those looter skills? 10% at lvl 100? 20%? 40%? Even 10% is massive if you take it into perspective, with how many 'double' Shrapnel loots I get without overkilling is literally killing my profit away completely. I steadily make minus now, and I actually don't see a way out of it without investing more then a year worth of full priced games.

well, SIB stuff usually maxes out at recommended level +5, maybe they sticked to the same rule on the looter profession? like, if your looter skill is monster level +5 , then you're maxed out for that mob ^^
 
Ok, sorry for that generalization on my part then, I didn't realize it, and that's not something I should've pointed out then, true enough, I can see that.

As for the viewpoints. Yeah, I know how your perspective is, I'm just coming from another one. I've played this game since a while as well, never with a high skill value rather then an investor though, and I always tested out different mobs which give return, as well as places for mining which are profitable, and have always turned it into one after a while. That testing was very expensive, and very time consuming.

Since I always could only reach the lower mob range because of that reason, but had access to the spreadsheets of other people in different ranges of skill, I saw the difference in how it was playing - and especially paying - out over time when doing certain tasks at certain places, that's what a society and contacts are for after all, trying to get the work done together which is just too much for a single person after all.

It's not that I don't know any sorts of ways to profit anymore, they are definitely existing, but they have dwindled by a lot, not only in amount, but also in altitude. Meaning while formerly I knew of some ways to get 1k ped per month if you were behind it for a while, now I only know of a few ways turning 1/10 of the profit at max, and neither I personally, nor the people I know have found anything bigger then that, and even worse, no way to make it sustainable for more then 2-3 people at max for a few days rather then an actual place to put effort into long-term.

Also, the place from where I'm coming from, roughly lvl 25 in my hunting skill as I was mostly a trader for a long while, turning profit this way, I actually can't find for the hell of it any place which is in my range where I can even think about staying at least in the game with less then 6% loss. That doesn't sound much, but when turning over 1k ped it's already 60 ped, which is 1/3 of a monthly fee for any other game. Do that a week and well... the month is gone, intense playing just isn't possible this way, or at least I've found as much.

I don't want to know where there is profit to be made in lower ranges, able to keep a beginner from investing 5k PED before before reaching any range to fare better, I just want to know IF there is one, because despite extensive testing on Arkadia, I have yet to find any single positive paying venue, while formerly I could name 4 in that range alone. I don't speak about getting paid in the positive even, just staying at 100% after MU steadily so I can build up skills finally, since as I said, I was coming back with the intention of not investing, or trading, but to actually play the game properly unlike I ever did before. I was always on the side of theory-crafting, overly eco play, working out models and seeing people profiting from it, as well as seeing myself profiting from giving the knowledge away since I was their personal trader to keep it running permanently, making a small cut from the profits as well.

Coming back I expected the markets to have shifted, but actually not finding any way for a beginner to stay above water is just off-putting. I know one has to invest something to reach something, but it's always either been time and effort, or money. Not both combined. Most people don't invest either, so it's expected they loose, I just don't expect to do it despite putting it into the game.

Also, I don't know how much this part is coming from those looter skills, will it change when I level up further? Or will it stay the same at those mobs despite it? It's just such a huge unknown factor, and despite asking around for a while nobody could even give me a resemblance of an answer about this. With equipment we at least know, it's exactly 7% between 0% effectiveness and 100% effectiveness. But how much are those looter skills? 10% at lvl 100? 20%? 40%? Even 10% is massive if you take it into perspective, with how many 'double' Shrapnel loots I get without overkilling is literally killing my profit away completely. I steadily make minus now, and I actually don't see a way out of it without investing more then a year worth of full priced games.

It was mostly ranting here, but the questions I ask are still something which are lingering in my mind. Some will be found out with further testing definitely, but some... I have absolutely no reasonable way to get the necessary data on them myself, and they are sometimes big unknowns, like the looter skills.

and I see a pattern here
I see a lot of "I"'s! :wise:

"I know how"
"Since I always could"
"I don't know"
"where I'm coming from""
"I don't want to know"
"I expected"
"I don't know"
"the questions I ask"

So, you could, but cant anymore, and you dont know how?
You expected?

Maybe you simply expect to much and/or lack the knowledge. (*Not implying I have that knowledge cuz I lack it as well)
:rolleyes:

This Universe has so much to offer...as long as you don't expect it to pay your bills.
But if you want it to pay your bills, and yes, even that's possible, you either simply have to be extremely lucky or more likely put in some serious amounts of cash, and that aint the 500$ you're talking about.


But ok, lets not completely trivialize the situation and stay at least a tad bit on topic.
Yes, MA could definitely do a lot more then they're doing now. And I doubt you can find anyone who would contest that.
Sure, they've made tons of fuck ups the past 2 decades and will probably keep making them till the end.
Either you live with it, or post some brilliant solutions on the "suggestions" part of the forum to solve all the problems that you think there are. ;)
 
And once the amount of players increases, you expand the items again, because there's too many items?
It's better to have too many different items and crafts as having too little, because there will be free spots in the economy for new players....

That's been the excuse for the last 10 years but here we are with probably less player base then we had 10 years ago...and why? Because we added items before players.

Add players then items
 
and I see a pattern here
I see a lot of "I"'s! :wise:

"I know how"
"Since I always could"
"I don't know"
"where I'm coming from""
"I don't want to know"
"I expected"
"I don't know"
"the questions I ask"

So, you could, but cant anymore, and you dont know how?
You expected?

Lots of 'I' because I especially wrote from my perspective, and made it clear for a reason.
The first 'I don't know' is taken out of context, it was a 'It's not that I don't know', which is a double negation.
The 'I don't want to know' is taken out of context as well, as it has a direct correlation to the next part which starts with 'I want to know' and for some reason isn't highlighted.

For the rest the intention of what I'm saying is quite clear, I don't know why you're just copying it though.
Would have been nice if an actual answer about any sort of knowledge for the looter skills followed, maybe tested out magnitude, or initial thoughts about how strongly it changed the return rates since it's clearly putting a newer player compared to an older one at a disadvantage, and it's not quite clear if this is a large hindrance or absolutely unimportant, unknown risk-factor definitely.

As for the 500 Dollar input, I don't expect to life off of that, never said it. I expect to at least find a way which lets me play for longer then half a month on 20 dollars input after using it. If that's not a given, well, what else then? The higher you get the worse the input needed to test out things, so do you expect me to pay 10000 Dollar at mid-level then? And 250000 Dollar at end-game? That's just not feasable, somewhere along the line people are weeded out, and that needs to have a balance as well. Like I said, I don't expect to be the one person getting rich here, I probably never will, especially since I won't put the amount of time into the game for me to reach uber-status even if I have a halfway decent route to profit. But I expect other people regularly to find such ways, as well as others regularly to find ways of not putting any money into the game. Market after all, some loose, some win, it's their main selling point! If you let 5 people win while 15000 loose, that's not a selling point anymore, you need at least 1500 in this situation.
 
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That's been the excuse for the last 10 years but here we are with probably less player base then we had 10 years ago...and why? Because we added items before players.

Add players then items

My thought is that they are simply add system on system on system instead of concentrating on the base of what Entropia was supposed to be.
Fixing everything which stands against this system no matter if the existing playerbase likes it or not because they profit off of it right now in a grand way and milk the game dry for the future since it's a static system, at least that's what I think would be a good direction. The more changing and adapting it is, the more ways for profit die, and the more ways of profit exist in another place suddenly. Everyone can win from time to time, everyone can loose, know when to be at the right place at the right time instead of finding 1 place and then staying there forever. Entropia lifestreams are boring for a reason, all you see people do is clicking the same 3 buttons, or standing in front of a screen which shows how it's crafted. Ever seen a lifestream about trading in a quickly changing system where prices in the morning could skyrocket over the course of the day because a lack of supply is there over the course of the day without anyone able to fill the demand?
Imagine how that would be, players seeing how it happens, rushing out to get those items to turn a profit before it turns into a loss again, some smart ones having left some behind for emergencies and selling it while crafters suddenly have an influx of people wanting to buy specific leveled weapons because the loot only drops at some mobs in a specific level range. That's how an interesting gameplay looks like with the initial idea of Entropia, that was what people expected when coming inside of it at the beginning. A living, breathing and working market which steadily shifts.
 
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Lots of 'I' because I especially wrote from my perspective, and made it clear for a reason.
The first 'I don't know' is taken out of context, it was a 'It's not that I don't know', which is a double negation.
The 'I don't want to know' is taken out of context as well, as it has a direct correlation to the next part which starts with 'I want to know' and for some reason isn't highlighted.

Hehehe yes, your post was to easy not to dissect that way. Just to many I's to make your story objective.
But I did want to make a point there. What YOU consider a problem is not a problem for all. It's just your side of the story. And it's mostly about your expectations. Which imo is that start of the problem.

For the rest the intention of what I'm saying is quite clear, I don't know why you're just copying it though.
Would have been nice if an actual answer about any sort of knowledge for the looter skills followed, maybe tested out magnitude, or initial thoughts about how strongly it changed the return rates since it's clearly putting a newer player compared to an older one at a disadvantage, and it's not quite clear if this is a large hindrance or absolutely unimportant, unknown risk-factor definitely.

No for me it´s not clear at all what yuo say!
And no, no answer about looter skills as that is not the issue of this thread at all.
You want to address problems and want solutions.
Talking about looter skills has nothing to do with that.

Also you say looter skills clearly put new players at a disadvantage.
Can you show me prove of that so called problem? Or is that just your feeling?

As for the 500 Dollar input, I don't expect to life off of that, never said it. I expect to at least find a way which lets me play for longer then half a month on 20 dollars input after using it. If that's not a given, well, what else then? The higher you get the worse the input needed to test out things, so do you expect me to pay 10000 Dollar at mid-level then? And 250000 Dollar at end-game? That's just not feasable, somewhere along the line people are weeded out, and that needs to have a balance as well. Like I said, I don't expect to be the one person getting rich here, I probably never will, especially since I won't put the amount of time into the game for me to reach uber-status even if I have a halfway decent route to profit. But I expect other people regularly to find such ways, as well as others regularly to find ways of not putting any money into the game. Market after all, some loose, some win, it's their main selling point! If you let 5 people win while 15000 loose, that's not a selling point anymore, you need at least 1500 in this situation.


Firstly playing on 20$ per month is perfectly possible. It's even possible to play without depo at all. Just dont EXPECT to hunt spiders all day.
And as I said before, it can pay your bills as well, but I have to add to that, it depends about the height of your bills. meaning, is the average monthly wage in country 500$ then yes, but for me here in Holland it might be difficult since my mortgage alone is more than 3 times that amount.
Simply invest 100k$ in deeds will make you 600$ a month in CLD payout. Thats the average monthly wage in Portugal!
But I have the feeling that for you money has to come out of thin air!
Sure, now you will say, CLD's?? Thats a huge risk!
Yes it might, but isnt that the truth with any investment?
Making money by investing is taking risk.
And if you dont want to risk, get a job.
 
for me here in Holland it might be difficult since my mortgage alone is more than 3 times that amount.

whaaat? damn thats high.

As for the 500 Dollar input, I don't expect to life off of that, never said it. I expect to at least find a way which lets me play for longer then half a month on 20 dollars input after using it. If that's not a given, well, what else then? The higher you get the worse the input needed to test out things, so do you expect me to pay 10000 Dollar at mid-level then? And 250000 Dollar at end-game? That's just not feasable, somewhere along the line people are weeded out, and that needs to have a balance as well. Like I said, I don't expect to be the one person getting rich here, I probably never will, especially since I won't put the amount of time into the game for me to reach uber-status even

its best to play to your limit, ofc on average every 1000hp costs 2.6-3ped to kill, depending on weapon, misses and regen. so the higher you get the more it costs. so with an average of 90-95% returns, the more you spend the more you risk losing

i have skills over 60, but enjoy killing 300-600hp mobs, i just follow the MU where i can and complete missions. my loss since logging it 3 years ago is 4,636 ped. plus 2k for 40 AUD. i won 2 CLDS. meaning if i sold the CLD for 4k and 40 AUD for 75 im in profit.

progress using your PED card, not your skills
 
progress using your PED card, not your skills

Main problem for a lot of ppl used to other MMOs when you slash the biggest mob you can. From countless threads on this forum it seems it's hard for them to grasp you have to do things differently in EU - it's not their fault, it's EU that broken, it's skills that useless, etc. :laugh:
 
Main problem for a lot of ppl used to other MMOs when you slash the biggest mob you can. From countless threads on this forum it seems it's hard for them to grasp you have to do things differently in EU -


yes, exactly.


it's not their fault, it's EU that broken, it's skills that useless, etc. :laugh:

No, dont agree with this part.

EU is not broken. And skills arent completely useless.
Skills open up the bigger slot machines for those who like to roll higher.
Bigger losses perhaps, but also bigger chances to win.

And there's a difference between avatar skills and player skills.
I value player skills (which you cant get with green lines) much higher as they will allow you to really survive or even thrive in this universe. Avatar skills just open op more ways to play.
 
No, dont agree with this part.

EU is not broken. And skills arent completely useless.
Skills open up the bigger slot machines for those who like to roll higher.
Bigger losses perhaps, but also bigger chances to win.

And there's a difference between avatar skills and player skills.
I value player skills (which you cant get with green lines) much higher as they will allow you to really survive or even thrive in this universe. Avatar skills just open op more ways to play.

It was irony. It's what these whine threads usually complain about: "EU is broken because when I slash the biggest mob I can, I go broke". Or "I"m lvl 80, I won't hunt freaking kerbs/punies/enter any low HP mob here".
 
It was irony. It's what these whine threads usually complain about: "EU is broken because when I slash the biggest mob I can, I go broke". Or "I"m lvl 80, I won't hunt freaking kerbs/punies/enter any low HP mob here".

lol, sorry, my sarcasm detector was still turned off. :ahh:
 
I dont know guys, then you eighter play 2h per week or i dont know. For me usually 50 euro deposit lasts 3-5 days. Hunting low level stuff like Argonaut, Kerberos, Feffoid etc. and im a lvl 40 pistoleer. Since I cant deposit much more monthly basis, i just play first week every month lol. Sometimes thinking.. why i even do that.. would just buy full game and play it every day.

Possible solution would be to adjust your cycle rate. Argonaut is like 300HP+, Feffoid 500HP+, not sure what maturity of Kerbs you refer to but probably not young. Why not switch to 80-100HP mobs? That should decrease you cycle rate so your deposit can last longer.
 
Yes, exactly, and that's what I'm talking about. 'Play smart' yes, what do you think I do? Why do you think I have over 100 AUD, CLD, and still own quite a decent amount of small loot I need to get proper stacks to sell? Don't worry about me playing smart, always did, always will.
'CLD is a huge risk' where? I can sell it off, I can make profit with it indefinitely as long as the game itself is running fairly decent, returns have diminished over the years, showing the game isn't running well, meaning there needs something to be done, also not rocket science.
'Looter skills don't put beginners at a disadvantage' What are you talking about? A skill which actively changes the loot returns isn't putting beginners at a disadvantage? That's either dumb, or denial, I don't know which of the two it is, but that's an actual given, there is simply no base of discussion there. If someone has a higher skill he gets more, either in MU or in TT, both is a negative for one not having it, simple as that, it's not rocket science there. Formerly no such thing existed, everyone was on a level playing field, not anymore.
As for 'you can play on 20 Dollar a month', yes, you can, hunting puny and absolutely nothing else as a beginner, and if you play it like another game, as a gamer who sees it as the main hobby... well, then you're out of luck even there. I'm not talking about that, many will always loose that amount per month, and as said, that would even be ok for me without a second thought, but not if it markets itself as a game where I can win IN THE MARKET. And deeds aren't the market, they are shares of in-game assets which return their dividends, same as stocks.
EU isn't broken in the sense that bigger mobs cost more, skills in EU always opened up more options for playing and nothing more, absolutely nothing more. Looter skills changed that for the first time since existance. Good idea? I don't think so, not a level playing field anymore, even if the returns at max are 1% difference, that's a 1% non-player skill based. Is it 10% though? We don't know, that makes it a secondary risk after the risk of already hunting something which has shown to be profitable long-term.
As for 'money has always fallen into my lap' yes... it did, since I play smart, and it's the sort of player like me which Entropia tries to get with their marketing strategies, people who want to compete against others in a changing marketplace, having to stay on top of their game. Not the subscription based gamer, and also not marketing to gamblers per se, since the game isn't a casino by their own definition, right? So don't turn around words however you see fit, everyone can do that, no skill besides those of a con-man in that, and we already have enough of those in the game.
 
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