Markups under 2.0

Consider the following points in the order mentioned:

1. Revisit the developer notes giving the overall return percentages which seemed to prove that playing this game has indeed become cheaper as was said to be the aim of this development.

2. Many keep complaining that their own experience doesn't match these numbers, even that their losses are worse than before. Some voices say that volatility has increased, which means a higher bankroll is needed to arrive at stable results. Not all players are able or willing to increase their bankroll, though.

3. Falling and insufficient markups get bemoaned since a long time and that "MA ought to do something about them". But the market is entirely in players' hands, MA's means of influence are only indirect.

4. Whichever way this apparent conflict between theory and practice turns, lower results are calling for higher markups to compensate. Higher markups also help the saleability of smaller stacks against fees, which is another point of contention esp. for lower-budget players.

These points are like interlocking gears: Both higher volatility and/or lower returns must lead to higher markups to restore balance. The gear was shifted, now players just have to hop on the bus. MA operates the gearbox, players operate themselves. Gravity doesn't pull them, but common awareness which needs to develop. The ball is in our park now.

If this works and was foreseen and therefore the move intentional, I'd say it was very smart. Higher average investment per player serves their bottom line, better sales ours. I'm not entirely sure yet, please discuss or point out flaws. Restricted information was always a feature of this game, it's up to the players to find out how the system works.

Subscribing,


would like to see what others have noted regarding returns.


I can speak for myself only,

and the returns are lower TT wise than before 2.0 so I am obviously doing something wrong and would like to know what that is... (hunting for MU, big sample sizes and yet TT returns very low..)

Originally Loot 2.0 seemed to be just swapping main TT value of loot over to shrapnel... Looter professions being added to the game makes the TT value go down as well, and that impact is hitting some (especially those that gamble by going after crap above their level) hard. Lately I've been hunting the hell out of the lowest HP mobs in game... and haven't really noticed a lot of difference from pre-looter profession and after. However, I suspect that if I were to try tackling higher level stuff, which I'll get to eventually, I too would be feeling the pain... (plan to get get back to taming eventually when Mindark does more with pet auctions or compet integration if it ever happens - finally got to where I can start using adjusted boiga but stopped taming much til there's more of a reason to do so)

Markup on low hp mobs is and always has been atrocious, but the tt return value allows you to keep cycling for practically forever, which is swell as you skill up.

I've started tracking my progress on the low hp stuff over at https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-s-Endeavors&p=3641399&viewfull=1#post3641399

Finished the puny Iron mission on Calypso already... now working on the hornets and carabok on Arkadia, as well as the pleak over on Cyrene, etc. I'll eventually get all of the missions for mobs below 15 hp on each planet completed, at least mostly. Til loot improves, I'd suggest others might try to do similar (just don't get in my way when I'm logged in, lol).

One thing that's kinda nice about doing these lowbie missions is you can work on mixing your skills among different weapons without major hassle... so if you have been holding back on not trying to do melee stuff, now's the time to do it by lowering what hp you are hunting and start swinging an axe, or something. If you use autoloot pills, stick with pistols or melee on low hp mobs since otherwise you'll overshoot the autoloot pill range, especially if you use the old 'select next'->autotool combination->autoloot combination (which makes hunting go down to being a one key endeavor as select next is all you need to keep hitting while autoloot buff is active)

(Maze hammer becoming UL is a nice way to get cheap UL clubs)

atm its no point to level to 100-120+ when some wont even break event with decent gear

like mod merc users got 70 eff and return is like 95-96% imo

San said:

These points are like interlocking gears: Both higher volatility and/or lower returns must lead to higher markups to restore balance.

Click to expand...

High volatility works both way, lower as well as higher returns.

Example:
no volatility:
20 players are getting 95% return , all have to sell for 105,26% MU to break even.

low volatility:
group A) 10 players are getting 93% return , they have to sell for 107,5% MU to break even.
group B) 10 players are getting 97% return, they have to sell for ~103,1% MU to break even.

high volatility:
group A) 10 players are getting 80% return , they have to sell for 125% MU to break even.
group B) 10 players are getting 110% return, they basically can sell for 91% MU and still would have profit
group B can just drop the MU from 105,26% to 101% and they would still be in profit, this way higher volatility reduces the MU instead of increasing it
Group A will be pissed due to high losses ofc.

Note: ofc there should be some volitility, but it shouldn't be too high.

Alukat123 said:

High volatility works both way, lower as well as higher returns.

Click to expand...

Yes, but you need a thicker cushion to get through the valleys. I forgot to mention stock options mathematics which helps understanding how to put a price on risk.

San said:

Yes, but you need a thicker cushion to get through the valleys.

Click to expand...

not if you're one of those people who never get a valley or just a tiny one.

I was thinking last night when hunting some Kerbs.
I kept getting 20-25 pecs return, costing near 50 pecs to kill. What I'm talking about here is just TT ammo in and TT loot out.
I thought - how is this 90+% return when I get 10 mobs in a row that give 50%?
Sure I need to keep hunting to get that one or two mob that gives me 130-200% or whatever

What if every mob gave me 90%? The volatility would narrow down to would the mob give 90 -95 %
I would even go to 85% - 90% with the occasional global/hof that tips the scale.
Would this be boring? My thought keeps going to the idea that MA would still make plenty of money if say every mob gave 95% TT in TT out. That's 5% + decay + auction fees + every other dang fee. that's not enough?
Probably not when your player base is low, but I think it's low because for one reason game is too expensive.

Just a thought as I was hunting getting 50% each kill - "how am I supposed to get 90% when every mob is 50%"
I know the answer is multiplier, it's just like - dang 90-50 is a big gap.

Alukat123 said:

not if you're one of those people who never get a valley or just a tiny one.

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Is there a relevant majority of such people or is it the perception of them which stirs up emotion? How is the claim "never" substantiated in the first place?

San said:

Is there a relevant majority of such people or is it the perception of them which stirs up emotion?

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it doesn't have to be the/a majority to ruin the MUs for the rest of the people....
a handful of people, who can constantly sell for low MU, are enough to ruin the MUs for everyone...

Alukat123 said:

it doesn't have to be the/a majority to ruin the MUs for the rest of the people....
a handful of people, who can constantly sell for low MU, are enough to ruin the MUs for everyone...

Click to expand...

True, but it would need a significant proportion of total sales volume to keep them down permanently. Otherwise you'd see just dips and recoveries. A small number of high-rollers aka whales could achieve it if they fell into this category. Is there evidence for this?

Just after 2.0 release volatility was indeed lowered significantly. But ppl started to complain than hunting became boring so MA reverted that change apparently making volatility even higher than pre-2.0. It's all in release notes. No sure if that was due to complains or maybe they had other reasons. But I guess you cannot make all ppl happy at the same time, it's always grinders vs gamblers

San said:

True, but it would need a significant proportion of total sales volume to keep them down permanently.

Click to expand...

well, since they can always sell the cheapest, thereby the fastest, you can assume they can grind and supply 24/7.
Also, that's not how market and people work, the supply has just be high enough, so valley-players items constantly expire and they get desperate enough to undercut that person.
Then the low-return players are helping keeping the MU low.

Daimon Frey said:

Just after 2.0 release volatility was indeed lowered significantly. But ppl started to complain than hunting became boring so MA reverted that change apparently making volatility even higher than pre-2.0. It's all in release notes.

Click to expand...

really? i've experienced the opposite on hunting lol
2.0 has increased it
december change has lowered it

btw, link the release notes pls, i remember everyone being "more often bonus loot" with the december change..

If you talk about markups and how it will be influenced by volatillity you forget one big part of EU: THE GAMBLERS.

Pure gamblers, no matter if hunter, miner or crafter often don´t care about MU, they aim for the BIG ATH once in their livetime.
Those people want to sell as fast as possible to get back into gambling. This leads to undercuting offers in auction, even if they make a huge loss.

Its not an issue if they directly TT their loots, but that is often not the case.
They sell to existing low price oders from resellers, or do undercut auctions with lowest BOs.

So no matter how much volatility influences the MUs, the bigger impact on MU is always the gamblers who don´t care about MU and economy.

Interesting responses so far and ofc individual experiences differ. The question is, do more people (in terms of combined market value rather than head count) lean to one side or another, including those that won't speak up. If more get worse results than before, then it actually should create upwards pressure on prices. Oversupply of certain resources through mission grinding or events may cancel this out. People who don't care about burning money also can thwart others' efforts to be sustainable. The habitual gamblers were supposed to be contained with the EP crafting, at least that seems to be the consensus of understanding after many discussions about it. With the uncertainty of the initial question included, there seem to be more factors pulling markups down than up. But not all forces are equally strong. Can it be reversed?

Logged in some days ago after months. After killing first Ambus I was wondering about the loot. From the feeling it is more than in the past. I do not track my returns, I am a fun player not taking much care about.
But i clearly noticed that my tt return nearly covers ammo and repair cost. I would say between 92 and 95%. Also one run way below and one run even above 130%. After wondering i googled a bit and found loot 2.0 posts.
So for me, at least up to now, better.
One word about Auction and MU. What would help might be to able to set prices after the comma. At least for the seller. I tt mu stuff very often because I cannot afford stockpiling. For the bidders as well, but to avoid micro bidding with a difference of 50 PEC..
I dare to say, but like ebay.
It would bring a lot of otherwise tted stuff to auction. If it would help on MU is another story.

San said:

3. Falling and insufficient markups get bemoaned since a long time and that "MA ought to do something about them". But the market is entirely in players' hands, MA's means of influence are only indirect.

Click to expand...

This is not true. Here are a couple of examples that show why it isn't:

1. Back in the day, it was (I believe?) exclusively Crystal Palace mobs that dropped Output Amps. Nowadays there are dozens of mobs that drop them. That is why the MU went from 400% to a little over 200%. And it wasn't the players who added them to all those loot tables.
2. On the flip side, there were a lot of robot loots that were near worthless. Then MA added ArMatrix into the game with their BPs calling for robot loot. And the result was several robot loots increasing in value.

Yes, players can influence prices, that is true. But MA has a lot more control over prices than we do, and most of the decline in markup has been the direct result of their (deliberate) actions.

slartybartfass said:

I tt mu stuff very often because I cannot afford stockpiling.

Click to expand...

That's where traders come in handy.

San said:

Consider the following points in the order mentioned:

1. Revisit the developer notes giving the overall return percentages which seemed to prove that playing this game has indeed become cheaper as was said to be the aim of this development.

2. Many keep complaining that their own experience doesn't match these numbers, even that their losses are worse than before. Some voices say that volatility has increased, which means a higher bankroll is needed to arrive at stable results. Not all players are able or willing to increase their bankroll, though.

3. Falling and insufficient markups get bemoaned since a long time and that "MA ought to do something about them". But the market is entirely in players' hands, MA's means of influence are only indirect.

4. Whichever way this apparent conflict between theory and practice turns, lower results are calling for higher markups to compensate. Higher markups also help the saleability of smaller stacks against fees, which is another point of contention esp. for lower-budget players.

These points are like interlocking gears: Both higher volatility and/or lower returns must lead to higher markups to restore balance. The gear was shifted, now players just have to hop on the bus. MA operates the gearbox, players operate themselves. Gravity doesn't pull them, but common awareness which needs to develop. The ball is in our park now.

If this works and was foreseen and therefore the move intentional, I'd say it was very smart. Higher average investment per player serves their bottom line, better sales ours. I'm not entirely sure yet, please discuss or point out flaws. Restricted information was always a feature of this game, it's up to the players to find out how the system works.

Click to expand...

Players egos, ignorance, and gambling addiction dictates markup. There is no other reasons for it... Prove me wrong.

RobBuona said:

This is not true. Here are a couple of examples that show why it isn't:

1. Back in the day, it was (I believe?) exclusively Crystal Palace mobs that dropped Output Amps. Nowadays there are dozens of mobs that drop them. That is why the MU went from 400% to a little over 200%. And it wasn't the players who added them to all those loot tables.
2. On the flip side, there were a lot of robot loots that were near worthless. Then MA added ArMatrix into the game with their BPs calling for robot loot. And the result was several robot loots increasing in value.

Yes, players can influence prices, that is true. But MA has a lot more control over prices than we do, and most of the decline in markup has been the direct result of their (deliberate) actions.

Click to expand...

yeah, too much UL stuff and mob drops as well, why bother crafting 2-10 damage laser amps when there's so many omegaton A101-A104 and Omegaton B101 (L) around?
The mob dropped amps outperform the crafted amps, based on efficiency.
here's a sales comparison:
Omegaton B101 (L) - 1 damage - 264,88 sales in the past month - looted - 65.9% efficiency
Shear XR40 (L) - 2 damage - 24 sales in the past month - crafted - 59.1% efficiency
Omegaton A101 - 3 damage - 32 sales in the past month - looted - 82.9% efficiency
Boom CCC (L) - 4 damage - 40 sales in the past month - looted - 56.2% efficiency
Shear XR50 (L) - 5 damage - 17 sales in the past month - crafted - 59.1% efficiency
Omegaton A102 - 7 damage - 32 sales in the past month - looted - 83% efficiency
E-Amp 11 - 7 damage - 37 sales in the past month - crafted - 54.4% efficiency
shear XR55 - 8 damage - 19 sales in the past month - crafted - 57% efficiency

top sales goes to looted ones, and thanks to omegaton A101 & Omegaton B101 (L) there's barely any demand for shear XR40 (L)....

shear 40 is made of:
animal muscle oil
robot low-loss cable
copper ingot
basic relay (made of zinc + oil)

without Omegaton A101 and B101 there may have been 100-1000 sales per month for shear, or even more, that would have kept the MUs of the materials higher than they're now...

Alukat123 said:

That's where traders come in handy.

Click to expand...

Yep, I forgot about them. But actually I do not see lots of them. If the population of Twin Peaks or the Quarry at Arkadia is an indicator for the game acceptance...

Alukat123 said:

top sales goes to looted ones, and thanks to omegaton A101 & Omegaton B101 (L) there's barely any demand for shear XR40 (L)....

shear 40 is made of:
animal muscle oil
robot low-loss cable
copper ingot
basic relay (made of zinc + oil)

without Omegaton A101 and B101 there may have been 100-1000 sales per month for shear, or even more, that would have kept the MUs of the materials higher than they're now...

Click to expand...

I have to agree on the A101, its awesome amp on lowish weapons.

1250% for a B101 if bought from auction, not sure if this is really better than Shear40L at 120%
Someone can do the math, I am to lazy.

The problem here is: shear40 TT is 9.2 PED while B101 is available for 1 PED.
New non depositing players get the 1 PED amp from auction, simply because they can afford that from their puny loot, while Shear looks fairly expencive to them.

RobBuona said:

This is not true. Here are a couple of examples that show why it isn't:

1. Back in the day, it was (I believe?) exclusively Crystal Palace mobs that dropped Output Amps. Nowadays there are dozens of mobs that drop them. That is why the MU went from 400% to a little over 200%. And it wasn't the players who added them to all those loot tables.
2. On the flip side, there were a lot of robot loots that were near worthless. Then MA added ArMatrix into the game with their BPs calling for robot loot. And the result was several robot loots increasing in value.

Yes, players can influence prices, that is true. But MA has a lot more control over prices than we do, and most of the decline in markup has been the direct result of their (deliberate) actions.

Click to expand...

This exactly is indirect influence. I haven't said it can't be effective. Players don't just influence prices, they make them. As a collective that is, what you mean is the limited power of an individual. The only time where MA sets markup directly is when they sell items directly, i.e. deeds, fancy spaceships and such.

easy to make item raise in mu drop less in loot and make sure that all 3 profession use at least 2 of the other pression when they play

shrappel was a good way to go to dropp less loots but they put the expo bp

ma has all the power to fix this but too stupid to manage the loot kkeep on inventing new loot for new bps or other item

i was happy to pay 140% or more when i started to play becasue when i got something in loot i could get it back

money go around and around from poeple to people that what make the economie grow

poor decision on ma loot system is the biggest problem

slartybartfass said:

Yep, I forgot about them. But actually I do not see lots of them. If the population of Twin Peaks or the Quarry at Arkadia is an indicator for the game acceptance...

Click to expand...

On Calypso there are traders taking mined resources, animal oils and a very limited selection of other stuffs. No chance to find regular buyers for most components and all your convoluted bits and pieces. (As a sidenote, only one trader there has a likeable personality and shows manners that you actually want to return.) On Arkadia, only one trader in mined resources is present reliably. Traders on Rocktropia accept mostly specific in-demand items, but oddly the chance is higher there than elsewhere to just get lucky advertising something in chat. On Cyrene, no resident traders at all but specific items sell fairly easily. Even on tiny Next Island there is at least one trader very dedicated and does what he can. On the Monria market someone else with more experience would need to comment, but I believe resources are imported there in large quantities because of the daily crafting mission. I have an opinion on the necessity of these traders' sorry lives just because a prohibitive fee structure makes it impossible for new and low-budget players to list their loots like everybody else, but this is for another discussion.

JD RACING said:

easy to make item raise in mu drop less in loot and make sure that all 3 profession use at least 2 of the other pression when they play

Click to expand...

This is already happening, most noticeably in recent times with hides. It helps pushing back frustration if you actually do get something sold, but it doesn't improve your bottom line getting a better price but so much less of it.

what i'm wondering, what MU would people like to see, when they say "need higher MU"?

San said:

I have an opinion on the necessity of these traders' sorry lives just because a prohibitive fee structure makes it impossible for new and low-budget players to list their loots like everybody else, but this is for another discussion.

Click to expand...

Agreed, MU would go up with no fees on AH. RIght now ppl are scared listing above current MU because it may expire and most loot is not profitable to sell with relisting. So ppl have natural tendency to undercut current MU to make sure it sells. But no fees also means a lot of unreasonable listings that right now are not-profitable due to listing fees and high probability of expiration.

MA could reduce or even get rid of fees and maybe implement other 'penalty' for unreasonable listings like returning expired items with 7 days delay.

Daimon Frey said:

Agreed, MU would go up with no fees on AH. RIght now ppl are scared listing above current MU because it may expire and most loot is not profitable to sell with relisting. So ppl have natural tendency to undercut current MU to make sure it sells. But no fees also means a lot of unreasonable listings that right now are not-profitable due to listing fees and high probability of expiration.

MA could reduce or even get rid of fees and maybe implement other 'penalty' for unreasonable listings like returning expired items with 7 days delay.

Click to expand...

I disagree, without auction fee, the supply of items/stack-sizes, which currently aren't worth listing, will drastically increase... so there's higher supply which lowers the MU.