Shared Loot Changes

The answer is out there:
Does this mean that when I hunt in the ffa shared mulmun instance, my optimal loot calculation is lowered to the average of all players in the shared mulmun instances?
__
MA's release notes:
The loot calculation for creatures with shared loot is now based on each avatar’s input, rather than damage. (Optimal loot is calculated based on the performance of all avatars involved in the creature kill).
In that particular creature kill. Just as in solo, if you crit too much a mob, that particular mob will give you less loot due to way too little tt input.

My advice: don't try to figure out all the details from day one. Maybe it will be 'fine-tuned' a little. Just as loot 2.0 quickly turned into loot 2.1. Just go and kill some stuff, do your thing and have some fun; look at the numbers in a week from now.

Cheers!
 
In a good company, that works on motivating the workers, people get incentives for their performance (dmg dealt), rather then their attendance (hours input).
Attendance does not mean people actually get work done.

Imagine 2 people with imk2, and the same skills.

Player A buffs up and does +50% of the dmg
Player B does not buff up

They shoot their mob together, and now they get equal loot. Why?

Also, the presumption that they both have the same input is totally wrong.
Player A will have much higher costs, with buying buffs and rings. Their cost and devaluation are not accounted for. He does more work, invests more, brings money in the game,... Buys stuff, which others are likely to spend in-game again and make the economy thrive...

Taking away the buffed lootpart from player A is taking away a part of the RCE of EU.

I leave the 'chance' on higher mu out of the equation, because it's a chance. First of all it is very hard to prove whether this is true, secondly a 'chance' is worthless until you loot it.

The point you seem to miss is that your 'returns' were based off the low eco people participating. As more and more of the uneco people stop showing up, the uber eco people have less and less TT going into the mob which = less TT out.

Since loot 2.0. every time a mob is killed, the TT in is then hit with a multiplier. The multiplier can be as low as .25 and as high as 8000+. Over time these multipliers average out to ~97% return. But what happens when you get that high multiplier mob?

Let's say you spend .1 ped per shot and on average you spend 1 ped to kill the mob. If you have a mob that has a 100x multiplier you have the following possibilities:

5 crits - .5p in, 50p out
10 average shots - 1p in, 100p out
15 attacks with evades/dodges/jams - 1.5p in, 150p out.

So in solo hunting you are penalized in potential returns by hunting eco... why then should you be rewarded for hunting eco on a shared mob????????????????????????????????????????

Eco person spends 700 ped to kill 1000 mobs, estimated return at 97% = 679 ped. net cost for 1000 mobs = 21 ped.
Uneco person spends 1000 ped to kill same 1000 mobs and get 970 ped back, net cost 30 ped.

On a shared mob YOU are actually hurting the potential return by hunting eco and you want to be rewarded for it... wow... just wow.

In regards to sights and scopes, from testing done I can tell you that hunting with a sight/scope generally means more cost = more loot return (97% of (x+y) > 97% of x) but on top of that you get more skills back. I did 2 runs with a weapon going from full TT to broken in both cases. The sight/scopes added a little over 15 ped to the second run. However I got more skills using the sight/scopes than I would have if I had repared on the 1st run and then spent that additional 15 ped in ammo/decay.
 
i humbly want to disagree here:
Charlie MindArk Official 09-29-2017, 14:26
DPP affects loot composition and critical hit/damage etc affect the DPP.
Efficiency directly affects average TT return by 0-7%.

Ergo:
Efficiency controls the TT quantity of your loot. it adds 0-7% ontop of your base return (base return most likely 90%).

Thanks for pointing this out. Their 7% remark wasn't quite clear to me from the start. Since the efficiency rating is directly derived from dpp (it just maps dpp onto a scale giving 0 to the worst, 100 to the best item currently in game), the two sentences of the quoted official statement are equivalent. Efficiency/dpp therefore affects both quality and quantity, the latter limited to a 7% advantage for the better tool. Is this now correct?
 
was the share mob in loot 2.2 before this change could poeple hunting alone on share mob get more than the tt spent in loot like it was before in loot 2.0 normal loot

so if you want more now just spend more that others what every way you can to get the items better chance

nothing has realy change just now you get what you put in not what the other players put in because you had better eco and took from them instead no more tt profit from loot of others
 
Since the efficiency rating is directly derived from dpp (it just maps dpp onto a scale giving 0 to the worst, 100 to the best item currently in game)

Incorrect, they just did that initially, they are not tied to each other.
 
Alright maybe I've incorrectly interpreted the release but to me this seems absolutely great for everybody involved? In this scenario, all the low/medium level players have more incentive to participate in shared loot such as feffoid camp, therefore more TT is being pumped into the loot pool.

And for uber players, sure they're not going to receive as much TT returns anymore (then again, they were "leeching" this loot of lower level players who would eventually stop doing these events) BUT they still get the largest percentage of each loot - and most likely to receive item drops etc. With more players coming into these events, its more likely a big multiplier will hit.

Maybe I'm wrong but to me at least it makes sense :eyecrazy::eyecrazy::eyecrazy:
 
Test event:

it is 'funny' how there fall way more 500+ hofs in the small categories, then in the big categories right now.

Basically it means that the lower categories are awarded way higher multipliers then the bigger categories?
Or does it mean that people in the lower categories leech from the higher ones?
 
Test event:

it is 'funny' how there fall way more 500+ hofs in the small categories, then in the big categories right now.

Basically it means that the lower categories are awarded way higher multipliers then the bigger categories?
Or does it mean that people in the lower categories leech from the higher ones?

This could be caused by just higher participation in the lower categories (higher overall turnover).
Another factor could be more less efficent hunters in the lower cats, while the high end hunters may have much better average efficence (dpp), so in high cat the PED spent / kill (relative to HP of mob) is way less, resulting in lower loots at same multiplyer hit.

Example:
Eco 3.0 in low cat - kill 3000 HP = 10 PED spent, hit a x50 multiplyer = 500 PED global
Eco 4.0 in higher cat - kill 3000 HP = 7.5 PED spent, hit a x50 multiplyer = 375 PED global

Its just a theorie, nothing that I have tested, but it would explain some things that actually happen.
 
Test event:

it is 'funny' how there fall way more 500+ hofs in the small categories, then in the big categories right now.

Basically it means that the lower categories are awarded way higher multipliers then the bigger categories?
Or does it mean that people in the lower categories leech from the higher ones?

funny, people in one cat have 150 dps and the mobs have 15k hp and they need 100 seconds to kill one while in one category people have 30 dps and the mobs have 300 hp which means they need 10 seconds to kill one mob. and now think about this: people in the 300 hp cat get 10 times (!!) as many globals as the ones in the 15k hp cat! isnt that unfair??? (made up numbers to make a point)
 
funny, people in one cat have 150 dps and the mobs have 15k hp and they need 100 seconds to kill one while in one category people have 30 dps and the mobs have 300 hp which means they need 10 seconds to kill one mob. and now think about this: people in the 300 hp cat get 10 times (!!) as many globals as the ones in the 15k hp cat! isnt that unfair??? (made up numbers to make a point)

That and there are like 30 people grinding cat10.....and like 1000 in lower cats.
 
That and there are like 30 people grinding cat10.....and like 1000 in lower cats.

Also, for every multiplier on a 10k hp mob, there can be 10x that same multiplier on a 1k hp mob, for the same amount cycled...
 
Alright maybe I've incorrectly interpreted the release but to me this seems absolutely great for everybody involved? In this scenario, all the low/medium level players have more incentive to participate in shared loot such as feffoid camp, therefore more TT is being pumped into the loot pool.

And for uber players, sure they're not going to receive as much TT returns anymore (then again, they were "leeching" this loot of lower level players who would eventually stop doing these events) BUT they still get the largest percentage of each loot - and most likely to receive item drops etc. With more players coming into these events, its more likely a big multiplier will hit.

Maybe I'm wrong but to me at least it makes sense :eyecrazy::eyecrazy::eyecrazy:



So one important thing to note... that will hopefully clear the air for you.



[h=2]Developer Notes #12 - Loot 2.0 Follow-Up[/h]

  • The Efficiency parameter is not affected by avatar skills.
  • The largest components by far in loot value calculations are costs, such as weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc.
  • The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value).
  • The displayed Efficiency parameter for a given weapon does not correspond to expected overall loot return.


Optimal Loot
Another feature of Loot 2.0 that has sparked lots of discussion and speculation is Optimal Loot.

It is important to note that Optimal Loot only affects loot composition (what you loot), not the loot value (how much you loot).....

In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot. There is no inherent “kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time.

Originally Posted Here



Essecially, what we see from the patch notes when loot 2.0 first dropped...

Efficiency = Makes up no more than 7% of total loot value...meaning higher Efficiency higher TT return. Additionally, it's important to note, that only weapons attachments have an effect on the Efficiency of the weapon.

DPP = A contributing factor in Loot Composition (What makes up the loot) So higher DPP would allude to more marketable items IE oils and not shrap). Something to note, DPP is impacted by not only an items base DPP, but accessories, pills and buff. This means, items that provide FB, and ICD for example, while they don't provide all of the same benefit as they did in prior to loot 2.0, still have a useful place in determining how much MV you get back from your hunt.



Now, going back to the changes about shared loot. (While, I've said this before...to hopefully prevent getting blasted...I will say it again...I think the changes to shared loot were needed to bring all aspects of hunting to the standards set by loot 2.0) With that said....

New Features
  • The loot calculation for creatures with shared loot is now based on each avatar’s input, rather than damage. (Optimal loot is calculated based on the performance of all avatars involved in the creature kill).
Originally Posted Here

[h=2]Developer Notes #11 - Loot 2.0[/h]

  • Loot calculations will be optimized and improved to better factor in the various costs associated with hunting activity, including: healing, ammo consumption, buffs, tool and armor deterioration, attachments, and more.

    Originally Posted Here


  • This is where I would love to see a little more clarification....
    - Shared loot is now based on each avatar’s input, rather than damage = Good! Bring it to cost in cost out to match the parameters set by loot 2.0
    -Optimal loot is calculated based on the performance of all avatars involved in the creature kill = The big question mark.... With this statement, does it really mean if Player A has 0 Eff and 2.0 DPP and Player B has 100 Eff and 4.0 DPP that their OVERALL Eff is 50% and 3.0 DPP?

    If this is truly the case, it means that if you go into shared loot with a lower Efficiency and lower DPP gun, because of the setting your Efficiency and DPP will effectively be increased seeing a POSITIVE effect of this hunting style...and visa versa, if you go into shared loot and you have higher Efficiency and higher DPP that you will see a NEGATIVE effect because your Efficiency and DPP will be lowered to match the groups average?

    Again too... Because of the lower Efficiency, you will see a lower TT return, and because of the lower DPP you will see less loot composition and MV items.

    We definitely made steps in the right direction with this recent patch bring shared loot closer to the parameters set by loot 2.0. However, we now have a system..

    Higher Efficiency and DPP will see a negative impact
    Lower Efficiency and DPP will see a positive impact
    Mid Level Efficiency and DPP I would imagine see little impact (simply because their Eff/DPP fall in line with the average of the group)

    Additional note...
    - Yes, if the groups overall DPP is higher, then the cost to kill will be decreased meaning less "big hits" but they loot will be directly proportional to cost to kill.
    - Yes, lower DPP people will help make the hit bigger, but again because of cost in cost out, the will also see a larger portion back
    - To stress again...DPP and Efficiency are NOT the same thing.
    - Groups Higher Efficiency = Higher Group TT return
    - Groups Lower Efficiency = Lower Group TT return
    - Groups Higher DPP = Better Group Loot Loot Composition *Yay MV and ESI??
    - Groups Lower DPP = Worse Group Loot Composition :( boo shrap and no ESI?

    *Disclaimer... I have no proof of evidence that the loot composition will impact item drop rate....the context in this thread used it as a joke...Please don't jump on me for that bit too.

    And before we go into the whole if you want to hunt with low DPP and spend a lot more ped with the risk of getting a lot less back in shared loot rabbit hole, this is not the point I'm trying to make or encourage. It's simply my thought process based on the patch notes.
 
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This is where I would love to see a little more clarification....
- Shared loot is now based on each avatar’s input, rather than damage = Good! Bring it to cost in cost out to match the parameters set by loot 2.0
Fair indeed.

-Optimal loot is calculated based on the performance of all avatars involved in the creature kill = The big question mark.... With this statement, does it really mean if Player A has 0 Eff and 2.0 DPP and Player B has 100 Eff and 4.0 DPP that their OVERALL Eff is 50% and 3.0 DPP?

If this is truly the case, it means that if you go into shared loot with a lower Efficiency and lower DPP gun, because of the setting your Efficiency and DPP will effectively be increased seeing a POSITIVE effect of this hunting style...and visa versa, if you go into shared loot and you have higher Efficiency and higher DPP that you will see a NEGATIVE effect because your Efficiency and DPP will be lowered to match the groups average?


We definitely made steps in the right direction with this recent patch bring shared loot closer to the parameters set by loot 2.0. However, we now have a system..

Higher Efficiency and DPP will see a negative impact
Lower Efficiency and DPP will see a positive impact
Mid Level Efficiency and DPP I would imagine see little impact (simply because their Eff/DPP fall in line with the average of the group)

Maybe that is why there are tons of 500+ hofs in the small category, and barely any in the big categories atm?
Are the lower category leeching the higher ones now? Why do the lower categories get more, and higher multipliers then the high categories?
 
So went to shared event for the daily mission "Jinn's Minions" with a swine deluxe to see what the outcome is:

With tier 1-5 damage enhancers + Evil Amp - Adviser Kal-Ferrek
Damage done - 5073.4
Total HP of mob - 30000
% done - 16.91%

Global - 118
my return:
22.73 Shrapnel
0.80 - output amplifer
Plus some Blakk tokens
Return - 23.53
% of mob loot returned - 19.94

Cost:
Shots - 34
Ammo Burn - 3900 per shot = 132,600 (13.26ped)
Decay - 37.45 pec per shot = 1273.3 pec (12.733 ped)
Total cost - 25.993

profit/loss = -2.463ped
return % - 90.52%

So people rocking swines are still not going to be doing well unless it hits big (which is the same for any mob).

One thing i did note though, when i wasn't using damage enhancers, I received more items than shrapnel (ratio) on the mobs before the boss. To give an idea, these are the loots i received before the advisor while not using enhancers:

0.4, 0.2, 0.5, 3.5, 5.2 - thyroid oil
0.56, 0.08, 0.51, 0.16, 0.49, 3.22, 1.1, 1.44, 1.77- shrap
3.4 - animal eye oils

These are the loots i received before the Advisor when using damage enhancers:
0.28, 0.34, 0.91, 12.24,3.69,4.6,2.33,1.82 - shrapnel
0.4, 0.6 - thyroid oil
0.6 - soft hide
4.6 - adrenal oil
5.4 - animal eye oil

So considering Swine has really crap DPP (2.048 without enhancers but with amp & 1.997 with 5 damage enhancers and amp) and is not really optimal in any way, the number of items recieved is concerning.
Usually when using the swine on any mob, i just end up with shrapnel and occasionaly an item, but mainly shrapnel.
 
Fair indeed.



Maybe that is why there are tons of 500+ hofs in the small category, and barely any in the big categories atm?
Are the lower category leeching the higher ones now? Why do the lower categories get more, and higher multipliers then the high categories?

You are really stuck on this leeching thing and even though people keep telling you what to consider you keep dogmatically going back to the same tired old comment about leeching.

If you go to http://www.entropialife.com/ViewMob.aspx?M=662 you will see that I hold the top two all time high loots on Dromia. In your eyes I must have leeched from others. Yet both times I got a HOF I had killed over 5000 Dromia in a single day. 5000 chances for the jackpot to hit when I pulled the lever. When was the last time you killed 5000 in a day?

Same thing is going on now... 1000's of low level mobs are dying increasing the chance of a much higher than normal multiplier and all you can say is leech. I can kill 500 Dromia an hour or I can kill 20-30 Scoria an hour. Which is more likely to give me that HOF?

Yes, you are upset because your cash cow is gone and now you have to pray for luck like the rest of us, but give it a rest. The only leeching going on is you leeching the soul out of people reading your whining.
 
Incorrect, they just did that initially, they are not tied to each other.

Gee... I lost track of when happened what changes. Better keep my mouth shut until I got it all sorted.
 
Yes, you are upset because your cash cow is gone and now you have to pray for luck like the rest of us, but give it a rest. The only leeching going on is you leeching the soul out of people reading your whining.

Ight...with all due respect this is uncalled for. There is no reason to personally attack Naomi.

Naomi was not a player that sat and tried to live off shared loot such as the feffs wave. She is just asking questions to try and is trying fully understand all aspects of loot 2.0 as she has recently returned.

As we move forward and learn about the changes made with the update and discus the impacts, I really don't think we should as a community make additinal personal attacks on players.


There were also people that had the ability to leech and take advantage of the system and did not. Using myself as an example, due to my weapon and accessories, it is very easy for me to break 4.0 DPP. However, I personally did not agree with sitting back and trying to take advantage of the situation. I would do what I needed to in order to get my daily tokens, help out when friends would ask me to help with the sand king and partake in shared loot events by MA. I was not going to stop doing an activity because of MAs incompetence to correct an issue, however I was not going out of my way to sit and milk the system.

At the end of the day, there were players that could take advantage of the loot 2.0 system in the shared loot setting, and they did and quite frankly it was 100% in their right to do so. Regardless of peoples perception if their actions were right or wrong. At the end of the day, they were doing nothing against the EULA it was simple because of MAs incompetence to implement loot 2.0 aspects in all hunting activities at the time of release 1 year ago (patch notes dropped on 6/8/2017)

Hopefully, we as a community can move forward, lay off the personal attacks and enjoy Entropia Universe ;)
 
Higher Efficiency and DPP will see a negative impact
Lower Efficiency and DPP will see a positive impact
Mid Level Efficiency and DPP I would imagine see little impact (simply because their Eff/DPP fall in line with the average of the group)


We won't have any proof at all unless mind ark comes out with a statement but it COULD also be possible that those with the higher DPP grab a larger portion of the "quality" loot while those with lower DPP simply get more shrapnel.

At least that would make it fair for those who invest in high DPP weapons....

Just my 2 cents
 
this:

Thank you all for your input, info, and sharing your game knowledge.

There is still something that is unanswered for me, which is how hunting with FB/CDI will penalize the hunter in certain conditions. Let's take rextulum and spleen oil, a very common quality loot, as an example. A spleen is 5 ped. So your loot will not contain a spleen, when your loot quantity is lower then 5 ped, no matter what your loot composition or efficiency is.

Please check the following example. This is to illustrate the problem. I do not claim that it is exact science or math.

spleen.png
 
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Thank you all for your input, info, and sharing your game knowledge.

There is still something that is unanswered for me, which is how hunting with FB/CDI will penalize the hunter in certain conditions. Let's take rextulum and spleen oil, a very common quality loot, as an example. A spleen is 5 ped. So your loot will not contain a spleen, when your loot quantity is lower then 5 ped, no matter what your loot composition or efficiency is.

Please check the following example. This is to illustrate the problem. I do not claim that it is exact science or math.

spleen.png


This may answer your question.

Effects of Critical Hits/Damage on Loot
Finally, we have noticed several misconceptions in recent community discussions regarding Critical Hits that we would like to clarify. Critical Hits do not have a direct impact on loot value calculations per se. Since loot is now based on the actual cost to kill a creature in Loot 2.0, dealing more damage via critical hits (or by having higher damage per pec) does result in smaller loot events for a given creature, but this effect is directly proportional to the lower cost to kill and allows more creatures to be killed (i.e. more loot events) for a given amount of PED spent. Also, the composition of loot improves in such cases and results in a lower proportion of Shrapnel in loot. In other words, the use of items or consumables that provide increased Critical Hit Chance or Critical Damage can never have a negative effect on loot returns.


Originally Posted Here

Essentially, while FB and ICD result in a higher DPP and lower cost to kill, you will see smaller loot events (less loot per mob) but this is a direct reflect of the cost to kill concept. However, because FB and ICD increase your DPP and it improves your over all loot composition. So using FB/ICD items does not negatively effect you while hunting.

Based off your image, I can see where you're going at, however I think that's when we will start to see filler items. Using rex as an example, they drop output amps which has a nice MV. This could be an item you see more of having a higher DPP on some of the loots that are <5 Ped.
 
Based off your image, I can see where you're going at, however I think that's when we will start to see filler items. Using rex as an example, they drop output amps which has a nice MV. This could be an item you see more of having a higher DPP on some of the loots that are <5 Ped.

That may be true, but back to Naomis Scenario, it will be really bad if you like to farm spleen oil and use the FB/CDI items, as you will have a lot loots below 5 PED that simply can´t drop spleen.
Fact:
You will get a lot less Spleen than other hunters, that have less DPP not using FB/CDI items from this Rex.

Solution:
Go to higher maturity or switch mob, big Proteron could do the job, if you aim on Spleen.
 
Solution. Go to higher maturity or switch mob, big Proteron could do the job, if you aim on Spleen.
Yes, I also agree that going higher or changing mobs (higher hp) is the only solution to this issue.
 
That may be true, but back to Naomis Scenario, it will be really bad if you like to farm spleen oil and use the FB/CDI items, as you will have a lot loots below 5 PED that simply can´t drop spleen.
Fact:
You will get a lot less Spleen than other hunters, that have less DPP not using FB/CDI items from this Rex.

Solution:
Go to higher maturity or switch mob, big Proteron could do the job, if you aim on Spleen.

While Naomi's premis is valid in theory, it somewhat falls apart under testing. While I will freely admit I did not do exhaustive testing, I did do a team run of 300 mobs to get at least an idea of multipliers.

I happened to get lucky on my run as I ended up at 108% return with 3 multipliers over 15x and 27 over 2x. But using her estimates of 5.2 ped without and 4.8 ped with this is the result:

5 ped + returns per 100 mobs killed at 5.2 ped avg spend: 19
5 ped + returns per 100 mobs killed at 4.8 ped avg spend: 17

Using 'avgerage' ped costs you can see that the change between using/not using FB/CDI is actually very minimal. Due to the 'double random' effect when hunting large mobs though, YMMV.

If she could kill 300 an hour without she would therefore have ~57 chances to get spleen oil while killing 400/hour with would net ~68 chances an hour. A far cry from her estimates of 210 without and 80 with.
 
No , they said that most damage still counts. So in case that you spend 200 ped on sand kind and another also 200 but you did 50% more damage during the buffs rings , dpp and so on , in case of an item you will take it or you will have the best chances to take it. Simple.

Reading through this old thread have to comment here. I was on Sand King with an Armatrix 40 I forgot to switch back to my ares ring. So my mistake and I looted an 897 ped ESI. Yup! My best loot ever in game. Now the kicker is and I felt bad for everyone else because the total loot was only 1400 ped. I wasn't optimum, i most certainly did 2-3 times less Dps than some and got over 60% of the loot.

It made me scratch my head and while maybe it was deserved as I was down alot of TT hunting leading up to it. Doesn't make sense statistically.
 
Reading through this old thread have to comment here. I was on Sand King with an Armatrix 40 I forgot to switch back to my ares ring. So my mistake and I looted an 897 ped ESI. Yup! My best loot ever in game. Now the kicker is and I felt bad for everyone else because the total loot was only 1400 ped. I wasn't optimum, i most certainly did 2-3 times less Dps than some and got over 60% of the loot.

It made me scratch my head and while maybe it was deserved as I was down alot of TT hunting leading up to it. Doesn't make sense statistically.

That is part of the fallacy of shared loot. It appears to decrease cost to kill (You are spreading it around many players), but because of these large TT loot events, you are shooting a much larger mob than you might expect.

As for looting the ESI without the ares, honestly just luck, nothing to do with statistics, especially not with a single event :D.
 
my opinion for scope and lesser sight is more fast to global.... bcoz 1k ped input more easy to consume....

for example

with attachment
1000 ped input
1.2 hour end
return 96%
960 ped in 1.2 hours

without attach
1000 ped input
1.4 hour end
return 96%
960 ped in 1.4 hours

so if global when negative 200 ped =
using sight and lasser will more fast to achive...

if eco item
1000 ped input can kill 1k mob

not eco item
1000 ped input can kill 950 mob

so eco item skill gain more so with 1k ped will get more skill gain

so with eco item + scope and 2 laser

will more fast global
and kill more mob for more skill gain....
 
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