FYI: Long term crafting

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Hi

this is why crafting in Entropia is fun :) ~720 PED TT in, ~449 PED TT out.



Long term will pay off though, about 9988 clicks to go to even out to ~90% TT return :yup:

EDIT: 2018 ~800k cycle 87% TT return, this was just a random try to see if my stupid returns pay back today. Guess not :)

EDIT2: :hammer: should of done with condition
 
Im just going to say thank you then...97.76% tt return here...we all know how averages work so when you do bad, i do good :beerchug:

Keep up the good (bad) work.
 
Hi

this is why crafting in Entropia is fun :) ~720 PED TT in, ~449 PED TT out.

My run yesterday was similiar.
i'm wondering if it's even possible to get to 95% return by crafting the same craft 24/7.... i suspect the long term return when crafting the same item 24/7 may be about 90% and in order to actually get to 95% return it may be necessary to get lucky to roll bigger multiplier on something bigger than usual every now and then.

Anyway, 124,8k PED cycled in 249k clicks gave me 95,62% return and that's only due to the lucky 5k lux and 800 space thruster...

it would be nice if MA puts something in place like: 1000*averageclicksize=max variation from 95%-return
examples:
your average click size is 0,5 PED, then maximum you may be falling behind 95% return is 500 PED.
your average click size is 5 PED, then maximum you may be falling behind 95% return is 5000 PED.

Once you hit that border a global/hof is being forced by the game to assure you don't get outside the maximum.

This would even allow the players to get some control over the maximum losses, since they could just craft something like EP I to bring down their average click size.
 
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My run yesterday was similiar.
i'm wondering if it's even possible to get to 95% return by crafting the same craft 24/7.... i suspect the long term return when crafting the same item 24/7 may be about 90% and in order to actually get to 95% return it may be necessary to get lucky to roll bigger multiplier on something bigger than usual every now and then.

Anyway, 124,8k PED cycled in 249k clicks gave me 95,62% return and that's only due to the lucky 5k lux and 800 space thruster...

it would be nice if MA puts something in place like: 1000*averageclicksize=max variation from 95%-return
examples:
your average click size is 0,5 PED, then maximum you may be falling behind 95% return is 500 PED.
your average click size is 5 PED, then maximum you may be falling behind 95% return is 5000 PED.

Once you hit that border a global/hof is being forced by the game to assure you don't get outside the maximum.

This would even allow the players to get some control over the maximum losses, since they could just craft something like EP I to bring down their average click size.

That seems like a horrible idea.
 
My run yesterday was similiar.
i'm wondering if it's even possible to get to 95% return by crafting the same craft 24/7.... i suspect the long term return when crafting the same item 24/7 may be about 90% and in order to actually get to 95% return it may be necessary to get lucky to roll bigger multiplier on something bigger than usual every now and then.

Anyway, 124,8k PED cycled in 249k clicks gave me 95,62% return and that's only due to the lucky 5k lux and 800 space thruster...

it would be nice if MA puts something in place like: 1000*averageclicksize=max variation from 95%-return
examples:
your average click size is 0,5 PED, then maximum you may be falling behind 95% return is 500 PED.
your average click size is 5 PED, then maximum you may be falling behind 95% return is 5000 PED.

Once you hit that border a global/hof is being forced by the game to assure you don't get outside the maximum.

This would even allow the players to get some control over the maximum losses, since they could just craft something like EP I to bring down their average click size.

yikes. plz no
 
When i use to craft, you had to get a biggie to get a good overall tt return.

That biggie arrived anywhere between 10k and 250k clicks.

Peds cycled is irrelevant, clicks is the only thing that matters. TO give you an idea of how much you need to do to get a decent return percentage.

Rgds

P.S. a lot of people get confused when they click something tiny for thousands of clicks, tehn they click something huge for a few clicks, then scream returns are crap.
 
P.S. a lot of people get confused when they click something tiny for thousands of clicks, tehn they click something huge for a few clicks, then scream returns are crap.

from my experience since last crafting adjustments, that appears to be the way to get good returns ^^
 
...

Once you hit that border a global/hof is being forced by the game to assure you don't get outside the maximum.

...

That seems like a horrible idea.

yikes. plz no

care to elaborate?

A) VERY few players actually want a personal loot pool.

Did you ever think you were going to profit directly in hunting/mining/crafting?
Did you want to retain the possibility of a 5k HoF without first priming 5k losses?

Not going to happen when my peds stay in my loot pool protecting me from my losses to the system.

You can say that this sort of 'protection' doesn't entirely require a personal loot pool management system but, yep it sure does. They can still skim your pool to feed the occasional "winner" but that's literally what you're asking for right, fixed returns somewhere in the area of 95%? This leads us to

B) When you start protecting players from their own mistakes you start encouraging bad behaviors.

Loot 2.0 has brought us some of this. It's, perhaps, not so much the intent but it's an obvious consequence. I can see a clear, immediate, and consistent change to my loot if I increase my cost to kill a mob.

People are still realizing that there's basically a "condition" slider on hunting now lol. And how much money do you think a player can lose trying to force a system that think has 'personal loss protection' in it trying for a ATH that's only able to be made up by a 5% max skim (minus mindark's take still) on all the personal loot pools?

Literally maybe a couple weeks until the system is completely upside down in people that are trying to pull "owed" ATHs if they put a protection of this sort in hunting.

So, before you say "crafting only crafting only" for now I'm not sure what level you're crafting at but there are some pretty costly per-click BPs out there and an ACTUAL condition slider. Clicks that cost in the neighborhood of 20 ped per click plus sometime as much MU as TT.

With a private lootpool holding peds for protection and clicking only 20 PED TT clicks on solid condition setting how deep of a hole do you think someone like (nevermind any names i removed them) could create in the loot engine.

Really depending on the safeties in place to literally just lock them out of the craft machine when their personal loot pool should be hundreds of K of ped in the negative anyways and they finally manage to hit a 10k multiplier?


Aye, this is a bad idea.
 
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Did you ever think you were going to profit directly in hunting/mining/crafting?
Did you want to retain the possibility of a 5k HoF without first priming 5k losses?

What gave you the impression that i expect/want that? :confused:
Do you really think you're going to roll 10 times 1000 multipliers in a row when you're sitting at 5k loss with an average of 0,5 ped per craft? with <0,5 PED craft being the most crafted... The whole frigging point is to limit the maximum losses.

What do you think it feels like, when you look at your chart:
average click-size: 0,46 PED
missing for 95% return: 5000 PED?
there's just no frigging way to regain those losses on a 0,5 PED craft, so must craft bigger to have a shot at rescoping the missing peds, yet, if you start clicking bigger, then your missing for 95% return may just change from 5k ped to 50k ped....

In short, you may be totally fucked if you're going for MU stuff and that's the whole problem... which even causes that much TT-food on hunting/mining loot, this, better not touch the craft, even if it would be good profit at 95% return, because the risk outweights the potential profit...
Oh and i talk about quantity crafting ofc, i don't care about condition gambling...


B) When you start protecting players from their own mistakes you start encouraging bad behaviors.

This bad behavior would be chasing after MU & niche stuff rather than sticking to TT-food and stuff everyone crafts?
 
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What gave you the impression that i expect/want that? :confused:

Well, you clearly don't. You can look at my EL profile and see that it's not my priority either. But we're not (either of us) playing in isolation.

If profiting from your in game activities is truly a secondary goal or even "something you're not really thinking about" you are part of a small and under-appreciated minority.

But we are not here in isolation. The game has to make money from a vastly larger percentage of players that are literally here 100% focused on taking what peds they can.

A legit question for you, this is not a jab: How many people will keep coming when it's a hard fact that 99-100 out of 100 EU play sessions will end in a documentable TT loss?

Do you really think you're going to roll 10 times 1000 multipliers in a row when you're sitting at 5k loss with an average of 0,5 ped per craft? with <0,5 PED craft being the most crafted... The whole frigging point is to limit the maximum losses.

I think that any system you want to implement has to compensate equitably for players that consider being 150k ped in the negative as an acceptable situation.

More on this in a minute...

What do you think it feels like, when you look at your chart:
average click-size: 0,46 PED
missing for 95% return: 5000 PED?
there's just no frigging way to regain those losses on a 0,5 PED craft, so must craft bigger to have a shot at rescoping the missing peds, yet, if you start clicking bigger, then your missing for 95% return may just change from 5k ped to 50k ped....

Do you want to limit losses on a per-session basis, or on a per-blueprint basis? Are you going to limit them on a straight PED basis or on a percentage basis? Will you vary these parameters per blueprint type?

Or just overall per individual's overall crafting activity for those who try to "make it back" with a small sample size at a larger cost per click, as you describe?


In short, you may be totally fucked if you're going for MU stuff and that's the whole problem... which even causes that much TT-food on hunting/mining loot, this, better not touch the craft, even if it would be good profit at 95% return, because the risk outweights the potential profit...

This bad behavior would be chasing after MU stuff rather than sticking to TT-food stuff?

Specifically, the obvious and common bad behavior would be trying to "load" the system with large losses until it "owes" you a large multiplier.

Your system will have MA protecting Henry and SpaceJanitor and their descendants and how many K deep can you allow them to get before your protection kicks in?

This is already a too-common practice and occasionally leads to someone exploding all over the forum and game chats for a few days when they don't hit the multiplier and finally have to stop throwing PED into the pit.

Hunter, miners, crafters, no matter. It happens in all professions because "there's a HoF out there" that pushes people past "quit while your losses are acceptable".

You can't limit them to 10k ped in loss before they get payback or they are never going to hit that HoF or ATH they're rolling for.

A limit from 10k ped in losses isn't even going to matter to you. How many times would you hit that?

If it's going to be a percentage then it pretty much has to be a blueprint which, again, interferes with the activity you're describing about stepping it up by changing prints. Now any way you want to break it down we're adding individual loot tracking, including possible individual, per-blueprint loot tracking.

And maybe per individual blueprint literally to the copy because what if you switch from a 25QR print you're working up to a 100QR print mid-run to get back some losses.

So for all this to be working correctly and to stay protected at any level, there's a significant additional burden to the game systems, ranging from significant per click to somewhere in the realm of ridiculous with an actual log of every player's click on every single unique copy of every blueprint in the game ever.

It's so much work, with so many ramifications and repercussions that I'm not even interested in MA attempting such a thing. If you think this is hyperbole, really think it through to detail something that works for all these players, isn't easily gamed, and still provides the safety blanket you're looking for.

It's not hard to see why people would act negatively to this sort of thing even as a vague sort of idea. You did ask for some elaboration, so understand here that I'm not just trying to break you down for your idea or be negative.

It's not simple to do what you're suggesting, and the odds of it being well and equitably implemented here are less than the odds that a majority of players would find such a system boring and distasteful.

IMO. No one else seems interested enough to bother explaining.
 
Well, you clearly don't.

Why do you bring it up then, when you did see that i wasn't talking about something like that?

Well, you clearly don't. You can look at my EL profile and see that it's not my priority either. But we're not (either of us) playing in isolation.

If profiting from your in game activities is truly a secondary goal or even "something you're not really thinking about" you are part of a small and under-appreciated minority.

Just for clarification, when you talk about profit, are you talking about profit with or without MU? that's not clear...

A legit question for you, this is not a jab: How many people will keep coming when it's a hard fact that 99-100 out of 100 EU play sessions will end in a documentable TT loss?

And where are you reading this one from me? I haven't said a single thing in this direction :eek:

Do you want to limit losses on a per-session basis, or on a per-blueprint basis?

On an average click-size basis, i already said that.

A legit question for you, this is not a jab: How many people will keep coming when it's a hard fact that 99-100 out of 100 EU play sessions will end in a documentable TT loss?

And where are you reading this one from me? I haven't said a single thing in this direction :eek:

Your system will have MA protecting Henry and SpaceJanitor and their descendants and how many K deep can you allow them to get before your protection kicks in?

if building a in condition multiplier, so a 20 PED craft on full conditions gets the 160 PED per click treatment, then they can fall behind 95% by 160k PED before it kicks in.
Note: the mechanic isn't meant to boost you directly to 95% return, it's just that it prevents you by falling behind by more than 1000 times the average click size.
With that said, example: they may fall behind by 160k , then get 40k hof, fall back to being behind by 160k, get 60k, fall behind to 160k , they get ATH. Or more steps in between.
 
Why do you bring it up then, when you did see that i wasn't talking about something like that?

This system affects all players equally right? You specifically asked for clarification on why people reacted negatively to this idea right?

I bring it up because it's relevant to the issue we're discussing. It's a part of the answer to your question.

Just for clarification, when you talk about profit, are you talking about profit with or without MU? that's not clear...

Ah sorry we're discussing percentage/returns right? These things are not (supposed to be) affected by MV or MU.

If you want MA compensating for that, and people argue about how/how much they already do, it's a different can of worms.


And where are you reading this one from me? I haven't said a single thing in this direction :eek:

Ah yes you point this out twice. I did point out that it was a question. Literally point that out. Then end the sentence with a question mark.

That would generally indicate that I haven't heard either way on this issue from you, but thanks for clarifying.


On an average click-size basis, i already said that.


if building a in condition multiplier, so a 20 PED craft on full conditions gets the 160 PED per click treatment, then they can fall behind 95% by 160k PED before it kicks in.
Note: the mechanic isn't meant to boost you directly to 95% return, it's just that it prevents you by falling behind by more than 1000 times the average click size.
With that said, example: they may fall behind by 160k , then get 40k hof, fall back to being behind by 160k, get 60k, fall behind to 160k , they get ATH. Or more steps in between.

Myself, I'm usually on to something else well before I'm 1000x cost to click in the negative at any one activity. There will be a better time.

As far as I know hunting is still the only profession that ever offered a (non-bugged) way to 100% grind regardless of the subtleties of the game and show consistent high 90% (in terms of TT PED) returns.

In other professions (and largely now again in hunting)you need to pay attention to what you're doing. Either that or you need to be looking at the actual law of large numbers perspective and recognize that yes, 50 to 100k iterations before stabilizing is normal regardless of swings or outliers.

Somewhere in this range lies the number of clicks it's going to take you to move a (UL) BP from 0 to 100 QR as well. If you're not starting with a 100 QR BP this will add to the number of iterations require to expect stabilization.

This is an activity that is going to cause you to cycle (VERY roughly) 25 - 50k ped at 50 pec/click. If you can't take a 1-2% variance during this time you're not bankrolled to be clicking this blindly.

Once you tip or constrain this natural balance in some minor way, you are stuck dealing with the feedback and that's going to eventually loop around until you have to manage every aspect of the system in order to have some sort of stability.

Crafting for markup, if you suddenly want to talk about that, is a different thing. But the protection you're asking for still has to consider it, and either define and separate it, or compensate the same for what you might consider "TT BPs" vs "MV BPs". This is non-trivial but not separate issue.

So far there's no response to any point that I've put forth except this one, repeated scenario that you want protected. Questions seem to make you angry or defensive.

If you will just keep posting the same one sentence that apparently defies all answers I'm done lapping this particular track. GL at the crafting machine. I hope that I've helped clarify a response to your initial question as to why a hard loss protection system being implemented immediately generates negative responses.
 
This is an activity that is going to cause you to cycle (VERY roughly) 25 - 50k ped at 50 pec/click. If you can't take a 1-2% variance during this time you're not bankrolled to be clicking this blindly.

1-2% variance would be lovely..realisitically, you can get unlucky and run 2+k clicks with 81%, this isn't even a rare thing...... it took me frigging 240k clicks to get the jump from about 90% to 95+%.... btw, on hunting it always took me way less than 5k kills to get to 95+%....
Seriously, if you only hunt, then stick only to hunting threads/topics pls.... hunting and crafting are worlds apart....

Questions seem to make you angry or defensive.

just getting tired of you strawmanning =)

Another easy solution would be to just swap half of the times 10 multis by times 40's (basically the way it was in loot 1.0)
 
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1-2% variance would be lovely..realisitically, you can get unlucky and run 2+k clicks with 81%, this isn't even a rare thing...... it took me frigging 240k clicks to get the jump from about 90% to 95+%.... btw, on hunting it always took me way less than 5k kills to get to 95+%....
Seriously, if you only hunt, then stick only to hunting threads/topics pls.... hunting and crafting are worlds apart....

Right but the end result here is the proof of MA's numbers, the proof that a "law" which doesn't need more proving is still in effect in spite of the bit of management that MA has implemented to shave off a bit for themselves.

Barring any breakdown into specific activities so including clicks ranging from 0.07 PED to 20+ PED per click TT. Just on an average overall return for average peds cycled in the overall activity of crafting it took only 125k ped for your returns to cycle through 95% TT returns.

No worries about QR or COS or discussion of timing, individual session length, anything. I'm not asking for that I'm just saying that here we have proof that the system is trending towards target.

So during this monolithic cycle of 128k ped, was there any time when you current overall negative was over 2,500 peds (the 2% I mentioned above) on crafting?


just getting tired of you strawmanning =)

I'm not straw manning at all.

Pretty much every thing I've posted in this thread has been on the topic of why a hard protective mechanism against crafting losses in general is easily seen as a bad idea.

Also gz on your luck as a hunter.

EDIT: Re-reading that, and because I understand the relevance, I want to add that I've cycled significantly more peds through the crafting machine than I have through my weapons.

That's still considering that for the last three years I often buy peds by cycling UA packs.
 
Right but the end result here is the proof of MA's numbers, the proof that a "law" which doesn't need more proving is still in effect in spite of the bit of management that MA has implemented to shave off a bit for themselves.

Barring any breakdown into specific activities so including clicks ranging from 0.07 PED to 20+ PED per click TT. Just on an average overall return for average peds cycled in the overall activity of crafting it took only 125k ped for your returns to cycle through 95% TT returns.

No worries about QR or COS or discussion of timing, individual session length, anything. I'm not asking for that I'm just saying that here we have proof that the system is trending towards target.

So during this monolithic cycle of 128k ped, was there any time when you current overall negative was over 2,500 peds (the 2% I mentioned above) on crafting?




I'm not straw manning at all.

Pretty much every thing I've posted in this thread has been on the topic of why a hard protective mechanism against crafting losses in general is easily seen as a bad idea.

Also gz on your luck as a hunter.


FFS, more strawmanning, i haven't claimed that you won't get to 95% in the long run...
I critizised what happens between starting to craft and hitting that 95% return and that losses may get out of control in that span, especially when you craft different stuff, is that really that hard to get for you? -.-

Edit: my negative peaked at 5-5,2k PED missing for 95% return.
 
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LOL

1) Pose a question

2) Break down any response by pointing out it's irrelevance to your personal (undisclosed) situation.

3) Answer any questions with questions and angry sarcasm.

4) Start accusations of strawmanning.

5) A little Ad-Hominem for fun :)

6) Repeat accusations of straw manning to any input or response.

:popcorn:

You, sir, have a artist's touch. Hat tip to a pro.
 
and here i wasted too much time with a troll again >.>

1.) i say limit the max losses, your question: if i expect to profit right away
2.) i say limit the max losses, your question: if i want to hof big without having to have any losses first
3.) it's a thread about crafting, you keep talking about hunting.
 
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Since crafting has been pretty bad for the past 2 weeks, i though it should be finally better (crafted in this order):
4420 clicks standard damper (0.07 ped/click): 77,67% return
43 clicks armor defense enhancer I (1.9ped/click): 90,33% return
591 clicks chair frame (1.31ped/click): 81,45% return
305 clicks nallo ceiling lamp (1.24ped/click): 87,33% return

Seriously Mindark? Does it really have to be that low return? :mad:
 
It definitely pays off Crafting in the long run and when you gets hold of BP with item that is high in demand consider buying a booth or shop to save on the auction fee.
 
i think crafting afk could be done offline. think of the bandwidth saved and the lag. people could just call for 1000 pulls of ep1 and log off instead of pulling each and every click. just a thought. not a gamekilling, funkilling playerkilling thing like the inability to zoom out now!!!!
 
i think crafting afk could be done offline. think of the bandwidth saved and the lag. people could just call for 1000 pulls of ep1 and log off instead of pulling each and every click. just a thought. not a gamekilling, funkilling playerkilling thing like the inability to zoom out now!!!!
There is an app for that.
 
It definitely pays off Crafting in the long run and when you gets hold of BP with item that is high in demand consider buying a booth or shop to save on the auction fee.

yeah, that was my original plan ^^
Did want to expand into some even bigger crafts (30-40 PED per click) which should give decent MU & profit @95% return, even planned to depo just for that, but when i see falling behind 95% with sub 2 PED per click crafts by 5+k PED, then not going to touch those big niche good MU crafts... I may just end up falling behind 95% by 100-200k PED in the long run... and there's a very good chance to end up with sub 80% return in individual run, which even the good MU won't be able to compensate... far too risky these days.
 
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