Question: sanity check markup

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Am I the only one that questions the high prices on some UL items?
I mean it always has been insane in the 14 years I've been in the game.
But now with loot 2.0 showing that (almost) no-one can profit or even break even in the long run anymore; how does this MU makes sense?

From 200 for an a101 amp; hardly an uber item to many armors (since the new decay rule) to the used to be uber eco weapons.

Not complaining, since I do not own or aspire to own any of those. Just wondering if most of us have lost our marbles over the years?
 
But now with loot 2.0 showing that (almost) no-one can profit or even break even in the long run

This isnt new to 2.0 it has always been this way, id argue its easier now to profit at low-mid than before, obv not easy (how could it be??) but its 100% possible. Not exactly sure what items you mean (other than a101) which is a nice eco amp for starter/low level (more demand) thats limited in supply (rarely loots) hence its price. It holds value fairly well (as you say even goes up) and helps minimise loss at those low levels on some setups again generally selling back for what you paid ($20) means its a very solid investment for low level starters.

Id say its prob a bit overpriced on face value but certainly nothing major. Some loot 1.0 guns are very overpriced however, i agree there, its a mix of owners not willing to take the loss and people not fully understanding 2.0 mechanics (eco doesnt matter anymore/no one can profit/can use any gun type thinkers) allow these weapons to hold their value but again not a new occurance, game has always had overpriced items held there by traders/groups/owners/fish.
 
Well, I agree mostly with what BigPimpin said but I would add one thing, there is still a value to unlimited gear so long as it remains rare.

We know that returns are based on money spent to kill, so that means any markup that anyone pays on guns or armor is money that this person will not be compensated on (will not factor in the loot calculation).

It makes sense to try to avoid as much as possible paying markup, and an easy way to remedy this is by using unlimited gear. However it's a gamble, if the unlimited item doesn't retain it's value, you could end up losing money either way, the difference is the losses were forked over to another player rather than to MA.

I prefer to use unlimited guns and armor whenever I can, saves me the 10-15% markup which, with my luck, I never get back when hunting.
 
pretty simple to explain..

1. People that have this UL gear are not exactly going to start the bidding at lower than what they paid for it. It will take a long time and many passing between hands for things to trickle down. Player has a gun the bought for +50k, after a while they manage sell for 49k, next person sells for 48k...etc...etc... until the markup is closer to 12k. The guy that bought for 50k isn't going to easily let it go for that 12k to start. Additionally, as part of this #2 comes into play that prevents certain items from going lower than certain values...

2. Traders can be poison that hyper inflate the market artificially. Too many times do I see nice unlimited guns going for a nice price only to be snatched up by a trader and stuck back on auction for 40%+ more. Think there was recently a nice high tier L1000 UL on auction for a really good price +1400 I think. It lasted about 2 hours before a trader bought it and relisted for +2400 to +2600. These types for traders are the main reason why this game remains expensive for mid-level players.

3. Markup is a hard thing to nail down because EU is a globally accessed game based in USD. For those that use Euros everything is a lot cheaper than those of us that use Canadian dollars for example.
$1000 USD = $860 Euro = $1300 Canadian = $1400 AUD = 66.5k RUB...etc. So depending on where you live what you feel is a fair markup will change dramatically.

Personally, when I see a mod 2350 fap for +4800 ped I look at that and think shit, that's like $625 CAD! That's way too much. However if it was $415 CAD (the amount of Euros 4800 ped is equal to) I'd think it's a lot more affordable and would probably pick one up. It's basically a $210 difference for the same item.


In any case... MA has been making a shift towards more L stuff anyways as of late which is a good thing for a stable economy between hunters, miners and crafters. UL stuff is really a relic of the past for the most part and/or the carrot of fabled treasure that you hope to one day loot so you can sell to some millionaire that plays this game lol.
 
UL gear is unlimited. L gear is hard to find replacements for sometime. If you enjoy watching auction or shops, or waiting months to find replacement for your L gear after it breaks, keep on doing as you are with the L path.
 
It's not about profiting, it's about losing slower :)

You seem the only one who gets it when I'm reading this replies.

While I love PE/EU and actually managed to redraw more than I spend (mining); and then realizing actually making a slow profit wasn't really fun I stopped playing.

The thing is, it is not about making money. It is about the idea of making money as a pretense of one's mind to justify putting in money into the game.
The fun comes every time you loot a mob and have a chance to get a swirly or a nice item or something with markup. That is the fun part. That and slowly building up skills.

Now, at one time it was possible to profit with maxed IMK2 and a mod fap; but it became harder and harder over the years. I do not know if there is still a possibility to break even/profit for the handfull of ubers with the skills and the right gear.

Still, we are great at fooling ourselves and rationalizing our behavior as investing or saving money on UL gear and stuff. But in the end we lose just slower. Even if we sell an item for the exact same price we lose on the auction fee and most UL items have gone down in price over the years.

We know tiering doesn't make sense on non uber or PK items; pay money to pay markup for enhancers to do more DPS and lose money faster.

The thing is, it is not about it making sense; it is us rationalizing our behavior because we are biased into playing and happy to loot and get swirlies; dream about items and big hofs. The fun dies after getting that item/big HoF and we anticipate something else.


Now, what does that mean for me? Well, I'm just going to have fun. Buy myself plates and ghost or phantom and use a CDF gun an armatrix amp and hunt a leisure Sunday afternoon hunt. Expecting to lose $5 to $10. As long as I have a couple hours of fun I'm fine with doing something non-rational without having to explain it to myself.

In the end it is not about changing what one is having fun doing; it is stop fooling oneself and then get frustrated when reality kicks in.
 
But now with loot 2.0 showing that (almost) no-one can profit or even break even in the long run anymore; how does this MU makes sense?

Showing where I'd like to read that too.
 
The value of each item isn't absolute but subjective, depending on your circumstances.

If you play a few hours per week and stick to the more populated planets, you are better off using L items - you will pay MU on them, but the monetary value lost in it per week/month will be negligible compared to the devaluation of a UL item.
If on the other hand you grind, do events competitively or planet hop a lot, then a UL items are indispensable. With them you won't have to stop a hunt/Event due to low availability, and even if they don't retain their full value on the long term you will make up most of the difference in MU when the time comes to sell by not spending it in (L) markup that, don't forget, isn't included in loot calculations.
Keeping in mind that the more you hunt the bigger your chances are for a good drop, it all comes down to your play style and what you are looking for.

So... yeah, a price that might look insane to you might be an actual bargain for someone else.
 
UL gear is unlimited. L gear is hard to find replacements for sometime. If you enjoy watching auction or shops, or waiting months to find replacement for your L gear after it breaks, keep on doing as you are with the L path.

Or do dailies and get a 100 token gun every 10 days.
 
You seem the only one who gets it when I'm reading this replies.

Perhaps I do but we have different attitude towards the situation. Yes, I perfectly understand it's just slowing down of the loses. But there are only 2 ways, you either stop playing the game at all or try to play by its rules. And I love the game and don't want to stop. I've never been here for money and don't get much thrill from swirlies , not a gambling type. I just love the process, progress and interaction with the world and people. And if I choose to stay then investing in UL to lose less in the long run makes more sense than paying irrecoverable markup on (L).

If you are stuck at Hotel California, at least ask for a bed by a window.
 
2. Traders can be poison that hyper inflate the market artificially. Too many times do I see nice unlimited guns going for a nice price only to be snatched up by a trader and stuck back on auction for 40%+ more. Think there was recently a nice high tier L1000 UL on auction for a really good price +1400 I think. It lasted about 2 hours before a trader bought it and relisted for +2400 to +2600. These types for traders are the main reason why this game remains expensive for mid-level players.

First of all, this is super real. My entire experience here would be different if not for a couple of individuals that I think might be making an actual living in the EU auction. The number of times I've seen someone bid several hundred PED over the current top bid for an item I've been trying to get and turn around and try to resell it for sometimes thousands of additional PED is ridiculous.

But People are more sheep than wolf, and lots of players think that there's a hard explanation for these MV charts and so it "must make some kind of sense". That's where we get into the things we justify to ourselves about paying prices from MV charts that were set when "spending more than the other guy" was a surprisingly common form of competition here.

Here's an interesting case:

urn_compare.jpg

View image in gallery

This is a game and we have people playing at very different "levels".

What I see here is that someone was tired, or irritated over something, whatever. Due to their in game holdings or IRL bankroll they said to themselves "$60 to solve this problem is OK with me right now" and bought out a ridiculously priced Urn at auction. Maybe they were drunk and it was a "bid your whole ped card" scenario.

Whatever, two things have happened. A reseller, or maybe just someone who had one of these jars, took note and decided to seize the moment. Someone got one up at a price that looked like a "bargain" compared to the recent MV data, and someone took the bait. And TBF someone may have been happy taking $18 to fix their problem.

Or it could have been a savvy reseller trying to get that average locked in high. Who knows I didn't see the auction.

For people that work off of the assumption that purchase decisions are considered and others share their budgeting principles, they are sure they must be a reason someone would pay this price. For people that have enough money that a few PED is no matter, they see justification in the fact that someone else has paid a higher price. For a long list (i'm sure) of reasons, most people assume that what's shown in the recent MV data is "the price" and that surely someone else has done the research, or knows the reason.

For that reason these two urns will probably continue to have a large price discrepancy for a very long time. Someone was kind enough to put one up with a normal start bid and Bori Redsky Keystone is not jacking up the price. I don't expect to win this jar but perhaps we can work that average MV back down to a price where it has utility.

I just thought I would touch on another facet of this. Plenty of fair analysis regarding guns and 'professional' gear here. As far as the sanity of it, you just have to look to the origins.
 
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Perhaps I do but we have different attitude towards the situation. Yes, I perfectly understand it's just slowing down of the loses. But there are only 2 ways, you either stop playing the game at all or try to play by its rules. And I love the game and don't want to stop. I've never been here for money and don't get much thrill from swirlies , not a gambling type. I just love the process, progress and interaction with the world and people. And if I choose to stay then investing in UL to lose less in the long run makes more sense than paying irrecoverable markup on (L).

If you are stuck at Hotel California, at least ask for a bed by a window.

I don't know if we differ that much. I love to kill some small neconu and ambu and stuff like that in an alien looking place. Just a break from life, like EU is a haven for me. I just stopped having the ambition of being uber or good or comparing or making sense of it. Just enjoy the hunt and the lands.
After 14 years it is a part of my personal history; those mobs and landscapes.

As long as there are daily tokens I'm fine and I can just play on my leisure tempo going nowhere because I am already where I enjoy myself.
 
Losing less is a big deal, it isn't just about making a profit.

Losing 2-3% less in a month before MU matters if you are cycling a ton of peds.

If you cycle 1 million ped and lose 2-3% less, that's 20k-30k you are saving, enough to buy more gear :)
 
Losing less is a big deal, it isn't just about making a profit.

Losing 2-3% less in a month before MU matters if you are cycling a ton of peds.

If you cycle 1 million ped and lose 2-3% less, that's 20k-30k you are saving, enough to buy more gear :)

Cycling 1 million ped a year would equal an average of 3h playing a day.
My question is: are you having fun?

I wouldn't have fun if I played that much. It would become a drag.
 
First of all, this is super real. My entire experience here would be different if not for a couple of individuals that I think might be making an actual living in the EU auction. The number of times I've seen someone bid several hundred PED over the current top bid for an item I've been trying to get and turn around and try to resell it for sometimes thousands of additional PED is ridiculous.

But People are more sheep than wolf, and lots of players think that there's a hard explanation for these MV charts and so it "must make some kind of sense". That's where we get into the things we justify to ourselves about paying prices from MV charts that were set when "spending more than the other guy" was a surprisingly common form of competition here.

Here's an interesting case:


This is a game and we have people playing at very different "levels".

What I see here is that someone was tired, or irritated over something, whatever. Due to their in game holdings or IRL bankroll they said to themselves "$60 to solve this problem is OK with me right now" and bought out a ridiculously priced Urn at auction. Maybe they were drunk and it was a "bid your whole ped card" scenario.

Whatever, two things have happened. A reseller, or maybe just someone who had one of these jars, took note and decided to seize the moment. Someone got one up at a price that looked like a "bargain" compared to the recent MV data, and someone took the bait. And TBF someone may have been happy taking $18 to fix their problem.

Or it could have been a savvy reseller trying to get that average locked in high. Who knows I didn't see the auction.

For people that work off of the assumption that purchase decisions are considered and others share their budgeting principles, they are sure they must be a reason someone would pay this price. For people that have enough money that a few PED is no matter, they see justification in the fact that someone else has paid a higher price. For a long list (i'm sure) of reasons, most people assume that what's shown in the recent MV data is "the price" and that surely someone else has done the research, or knows the reason.

For that reason these two urns will probably continue to have a large price discrepancy for a very long time. Someone was kind enough to put one up with a normal start bid and Bori Redsky Keystone is not jacking up the price. I don't expect to win this jar but perhaps we can work that average MV back down to a price where it has utility.

I just thought I would touch on another facet of this. Plenty of fair analysis regarding guns and 'professional' gear here. As far as the sanity of it, you just have to look to the origins.


it's for this reason I think the markup system needs a revamp. Being able to slice and dice the data to factor in buy out only data vs bidded auctions, planet based markups and more. Way too easy to manipulate markets for low sale items. And too many people just take the markup shown at face value with the typical "well I guess that's the price" mentality
 
Or do dailies and get a 100 token gun every 10 days.

Damitol, I really wish there was token dailies on every planet and moon.
 
What I see here is that someone was tired, or irritated over something, whatever.
or player A was player B's 'spouse, grandma, dog, cat' etc....

or player A, in same society as player b, owed player B something either irl or as a payback for a similar markup a week ago on something else, so the payback happened in the form of markup...

That sort of junk happens ALL THE TIME in this game... it's why watching auctions are silly and not really worth doing as markup makes no sense in this game at all.

If folks want something they pay for it... sometimes regardless of the market value... (I'm guilty of that too a time or two, or five)...

Also, sometimes people just like to overpay since they are friends with whoever seller is... (something else I've been guilty of from time to time.)...
 
Am I the only one that questions the high prices on some UL items?
I mean it always has been insane in the 14 years I've been in the game.
But now with loot 2.0 showing that (almost) no-one can profit or even break even in the long run anymore; how does this MU makes sense?

From 200 for an a101 amp; hardly an uber item to many armors (since the new decay rule) to the used to be uber eco weapons.

Not complaining, since I do not own or aspire to own any of those. Just wondering if most of us have lost our marbles over the years?

Why does a Ferrari cost a million bucks?

You can't pick up your kids from school with it. You can't do your groceries with it. And nowhere can you drive full throttle with it.


Why do people pay insane MU for it??


Better just buy a skoda.
 
In old times it was easy math, and today nothing changed.

Asuming you a use L gun for your level and it is 130% MU and has a TT value 200 PED.

Now there is a gun for your level comparable to your L gun of choice around +1500 PED.

The markup for each gun you use is 60 PED, if you use 25 of this guns you paid 1500 PED in MU that are gone.

If you use that gun more often than 25 times, you already saved money on MU if you buy that UL gun.

The more often you shoot the gun down the more money you save for MU, thats why grinders buy UL guns at very high MUs. Especially for those guns that also have a very good efficency / dpp, what is another factor to reduce your hunting costs.

Same goes for amps.
Buy 1 time A101, never again have to pay MU or buy many L amplifiers (Sheer40, BoomCCC, Rage5) and pay MU every time you burned it down. Look at the MUs of this amps and do the math on your own, how many amps you have to use to make the A101 a good investment.

I have my A101 over 10 years now, and its shoot down in roughly 2 hrs hunting, it already paid of long time ago due to saved MUs for the L amps, same can be said for my weapons and armor sets.
 
Why does a Ferrari cost a million bucks?

You can't pick up your kids from school with it. You can't do your groceries with it. And nowhere can you drive full throttle with it.


Why do people pay insane MU for it??


Better just buy a skoda.

LOL A101 Ferrari ? More like Fiat :D

Terminator + Mod Evil is Ferrari !
 
LOL A101 Ferrari ? More like Fiat :D

Terminator + Mod Evil is Ferrari !

"to the used to be uber eco weapons."

Those are the Ferrari's.
The fun toys to have.
Useless, but fancy and expensive.

Got it?

*edit*

PS, isnt a ferrari just a fiat?
As fiat is 90% owner of ferrari.
 
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weapons prices are not a problem since vs L u save a lot but wtf are still those prices of rings ? lol
 
Why does a Ferrari cost a million bucks?

You can't pick up your kids from school with it. You can't do your groceries with it. And nowhere can you drive full throttle with it.


Why do people pay insane MU for it??


Better just buy a skoda.

are you comparing a status symbol with the A101? :scratch2:
That is a far stretch. I don't know if wielding a A101 would give you any status / feeling of status.
But hey, maybe some people feel the pride of wielding an a101. To each their own I guess.
 
are you comparing a status symbol with the A101? :scratch2:
That is a far stretch. I don't know if wielding a A101 would give you any status / feeling of status.
But hey, maybe some people feel the pride of wielding an a101. To each their own I guess.


Ok, if you would care to read the post above you would see this:



LOL A101 Ferrari ? More like Fiat :D

Terminator + Mod Evil is Ferrari !

To which my answer was this:

"to the used to be uber eco weapons."

Those are the Ferrari's.
The fun toys to have.
Useless, but fancy and expensive.

Got it?

*edit*

PS, isnt a ferrari just a fiat?
As fiat is 90% owner of ferrari.
 
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