Money is power – MindArk business model based on (lack of) trust.

Jesus Christ guys, just read post number #60 and previous before you go wild.

In response to user: Divinity

But straight to the topic - the comparison is very noncommittal, I just wanted to highlight that 10,5 million USD is a liability, nothing more. Also, what do you mean by: Which Bank IRL only says that your last 6 months of deposit are covered?

I haven't yet read thoroughly MindArk terms of use and EULA but maybe I will, is it connected with deposits?

Regards,
Boring_player


He quoted the ToU/EULA:

FYI

MINDARK'S LIABILITY TOWARDS YOU SHALL, IF ACKNOWLEDGED, IN EACH INCIDENCE BE LIMITED TO NO MORE THAN THE TOTAL AMOUNT TRANSFERRED INTO THE INVOLVED ACCOUNT BY SAID PARTICIPANT UNDER SIX MONTHS PERIOD PRIOR TO THE INCIDENT.

This part is a subject for interpretation but most players I talked with understand that all the liability MindArk has towards you is the value of deposits from the past 6 months. In case of any incident (bankrupty or whatever) MA will re-pay you only the value of your deposits from the past 6 months.
 
Your all talk here is maybe , probably , but , ... the fook is wrong whit you

....

Do you see somewere 6 month or 12 years or 1 week ? I can proove you more whit my transaction data if you pay me to do


To be fair with boring_player, he does bring out some worthy discussion, other than this one.....
This topic is a GOOD discussion. Even he don't write it, someone else will in somewhere else, some other time or even in a worst way.

What is the disappointment in this discussion ? Can you see it ?


P/S: Don't get wrong that I am trying to do anything bad here. Shame on those who still think I am a whiner or trying to take advantage on something.
 
you have really no clue, have you?

Yes, you understood the financial statement.
Thats clear.

But you dont understand the mechanics of the game. Thats apparent.



And this is not possible in EU??

That boring_guy CLEARLY havend play this game :laugh:
 
That boring_guy CLEARLY havend play this game :laugh:

Boring_player, if you might.

I have played since November, deposited 100USD, currently 105,4% return, level 22 laser (hit) and level 9 surveyor. Two HoF's and about 20-25 globals. Till now spent maybe 200h. Still learning.

The perspective I bring to this topic is the new player point of view. I still discover new things, such as Landgrabs or this 6 month EULA/ToU.

You can consider me "new player experience" reviewer. I review not only the game. Also MindArk itself as a company.
 
You can consider me "new player experience" reviewer. I review not only the game. Also MindArk itself as a company.

that's exactly what I said.
You know crap shit about the game and that's apparent.

But you act like you know it all and need to teach us about the game.

Just to funny! :laugh:
 
that's exactly what I said.
You know crap shit about the game and that's apparent.

But you act like you know it all and need to teach us about the game.

Just to funny! :laugh:

But still you seem to be super surprised with the knowledge I have brought to this topic. What was your contribution besides childish offending other participants? Have you at least read the articles?

Can you imagine, that new players are essential for this project to survive? Can you comprehend that according to MindArks financial statement lack of new players and lack of new funding are significant problems?

Would you expect all new players to be super-knowledgeable since day 1 in Entropia? How can they be when even MindArk claim that people are not able to understand the game economy & mechanics and mostly leave due to bad new player experience. Do you recognize the need of improving new player experience?

Putting one MindArk official in Camp Icarus and introducing basic turtorial is not enough. RCE Experience need way more explaination. MindArk must explain new players why they should deposit and how the money can be managed.

Toxic people like you ruin this project. Do you think that only people that spent 10+ years of their life has the right to speak?

Do you think that old-timers deposits will be enough to cover MindArk's expenses? I doubt.
 
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But still you seem to be super surprised with the knowledge I have brought to this topic. What was your contribution besides childish offending other participants? Have you at least read the articles?

Can you imagine, that new players are essential for this project to survive? Can you comprehend that according to MindArks financial statement lack of new players and lack of new funding are significant problems?

Would you expect all new players to be super-knowledgeable since day 1 in Entropia? Do you recognize the need of improving new player experience?

Toxic people like you ruin this project. Do you think that only people that spent 10+ years of their life has the right to speak?

Do you think that old-timers deposits will be enough to cover MindArk's expenses? I doubt.

Dude, you're delirious.
And your ego is tremendous. (btw, not claiming mine is not tremendous as well :tongue2:)
Please point me my surprise to ANYTHING you wrote.

Nothing new you told me.

Like I said, you analyzed the financial statement well, but that's were you stopped making sense.
Thinking you knw everything about the game mechanics, structure, possiblilities etc etc.

Now, stop posting more bs and go play for a couple of years. And lets agree to talk further in, say 2 years or so?
 
Now, stop posting more bs and go play for a couple of years. And lets agree to talk further in, say 2 years or so?

No, I will not play for couple of years. I will do the same what most of new players do. I will consume my first (and last) deposit and leave. Product is not complete and I am not happy with it - can I be not satisfied with the product or will you force me somehow to be? Don't I have right to comment on the product I just bought?

I am not gonna wait 2,3 or 5 years for MA to make the game-play what I expect it to be. Why should I? I pay and I expect fun and high quality product since day one because I value my time and respect my hard-earned money. I can have tons of fun in other project, and if I need casino thrill... well I can go to casino.

In my life, I bought some alpha/beta games on Steam. Some of them I follow, some of them I do not. EU will be another one, which I do not follow - that simple.
If you like it, good for you, you can play it 24/7 - your choice.

You can expect me to post, possibly one more article, regarding the Swedish Gambling Act - some comparison between the law and game mechanics. That's all form my side. Eot - I am gonna follow the advices I got via private message - I am not gonna feed triggered trolls anymore.
 
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No, I will not play for couple of years. I will do the same what most of new players do. I will consume my first (and last) deposit and leave. Product is not complete and I am not happy with it - can I be not satisfied with the product or will you force me somehow to be? Don't I have right to comment on the product I just bought?

I am not gonna wait 2,3 or 5 years for MA to make the game-play what I expect it to be. Why should I? I pay and I expect fun and high quality product since day one because I value my time and respect my hard-earned money. I can have tons of fun in other project, and if I need casino thrill... well I can go to casino.

You can expect me to post, possibly one more article, regarding the Swedish Gambling Act - some comparison between the law and game mechanics. That's all form my side. Eot - I am gonna follow the advices I got via private message - I am not gonna feed triggered trolls anymore.

ok, bye then.

It only confirms my initial thoughts about you that you're just here to piss on the game, trying to drag it down and then leave again.

Now, bugger off you *self censored*.
 
No, I will not play for couple of years. I will do the same what most of new players do. I will consume my first (and last) deposit and leave.

You are just not EU material, I cant play other MMORPGs for example. Its total loss of time compared to EU at least for me. Yes if we all withdraw peds we are doomed, same as with normal bank, but I dont plan it and most ppl I know are also not. In RL money are also based on trust. I just work for few pieces of paper for whole month, thats all. No real value.
I do really well in EU since day one, and I'm pretty sure I will get my $ back if I want and request today. Can be different in next years, but I dont expect it.
EU is far from great polished game or masterpiece, but still its unique game and as you see it worth to play for many ppl for many years (iam here only for not full 4years).
Pardon my english :dunce:
 
You are just not EU material, I cant play other MMORPGs for example. Its total loss of time compared to EU at least for me. Yes if we all withdraw peds we are doomed, same as with normal bank, but I dont plan it and most ppl I know are also not. In RL money are also based on trust. I just work for few pieces of paper for whole month, thats all. No real value.
I do really well in EU since day one, and I'm pretty sure I will get my $ back if I want and request today. Can be different in next years, but I dont expect it.
EU is far from great polished game or masterpiece, but still its unique game and as you see it worth to play for many ppl for many years (iam here only for not full 4years).
Pardon my english :dunce:

If I could, I would +rep you for it.

yes, this is exactly the spirit EU drives upon.
And this is exactly what the boring_idiot completely fails to understand.

But that's understandable since he doesnt want to put the effort in to try to understand it.
He just gave the game a superficial glance, pretending to know it all.

Some assets can't be valued into money. And it's the entropians spirits that keeps the game alive!
 
If I could, I would +rep you for it.

yes, this is exactly the spirit EU drives upon.
And this is exactly what the boring_idiot completely fails to understand.

But that's understandable since he doesnt want to put the effort in to try to understand it.
He just gave the game a superficial glance, pretending to know it all.

Some assets can't be valued into money. And it's the entropians spirits that keeps the game alive!

you were wrong, MA wanted to evaluate in asset with deeptoken. boring_player is far from being wrong and being a player with I can confirm it, of course everything is not exactly as it is written.

i need $, i am glad you are successful and have fun and still have some:yay:, but the main activity for staying more or less positive is the trade so hunt / mining / craft is completely secondary compared to other mmorpg
The evaluation between a player (little withdrawal) and a trader/profit seeker (regular withdrawal) is completely distorted by MA, the return ratio is completely volatile compared to this slice of player
 
you were wrong, MA wanted to evaluate in asset with deeptoken. boring_player is far from being wrong and being a player with I can confirm it, of course everything is not exactly as it is written.

i need $, i am glad you are successful and have fun and still have some:yay:, but the main activity for staying more or less positive is the trade so hunt / mining / craft is completely secondary compared to other mmorpg
The evaluation between a player (little withdrawal) and a trader/profit seeker (regular withdrawal) is completely distorted by MA, the return ratio is completely volatile compared to this slice of player

You yourself are a contradiction in terminus.

If you claim he's right, you shouldn't have been here anymore.

The fact that you're still here exactly proves my point!!
 
Good to see that thread has developed but...
You started discussing so called "bad returns". You treat the mechanics of Entropia in a way that is a little mysterious to me. From my perspective, thing as good or bad returns do not exist. Why?

Example:

I deposited 2000 USD in 2018. I did some hunts/craft/mining and here I am in 2019 with only 900 USD of my money. MindArk took 1100 USD in 2018 from me! Because of bad returns, because of bad mechanics, because of bad everything.

Wrong - MindArk did not take 1100 USD from you. You deposited 2000 USD and this money is entirely MindArk's money. Not yours. Not anymore. It was your choice to pay them 2000 USD. If it harms you then remember - volenti fit non iniuria. MindArk guarantees to withdraw you only the value of your deposits from the past 6 months. Only deposits - not winnings. This is not Real Cash Economy - this is Real Cash Economy Experience.

you're not totally wrong about this, but you're missing a very large part of the game.
Most people that complain that they "lost" to much are just mindless clicking zombies, excpecting that by clicking they get rich. The more clicks the more money. (it did work this way with some setups in loot 1.0 but wont work anymore in loot 2.0)
But we all know from experience that it works the otherway around. The more you click, the more you pay.
UNLESS

both of you are missing the point xD
1.) it's about how long the money put in will last, how much playing you get for the buck
2.) they've announced they want to reduce the costs to play and volatility with 2.0.
before 2.0, returns were 80+% in hunting/mining in the runs, 90+% in crafting runs, at least for me.
now with 2.0, returns are as low as 60% on hunting/mining in runs and as low as 79% in crafting runs, at least for me.
What actually happened in the game is the opposite of what they did want to achieve with 2.0.
Did you guys already forget their 2.0 announcement and what they did want to achieve with it?
 
You yourself are a contradiction in terminus.

If you claim he's right, you shouldn't have been here anymore.

The fact that you're still here exactly proves my point!!

you brag about your success and you hope to go out 10kped or $ for this year :laugh:, you can only be in the trader because saw your turnover hunt / craft / mining you have not much to say.
My EU budget has dropped by almost 80% compared to the old "correct" return year (without being positive) so sooner or later someone will pay what I do not pay anymore.:rolleyes:.
 
Boring_player, if you might.

I have played since November, deposited 100USD, currently 105,4% return, level 22 laser (hit) and level 9 surveyor. Two HoF's and about 20-25 globals. Till now spent maybe 200h. Still learning.

The perspective I bring to this topic is the new player point of view. I still discover new things, such as Landgrabs or this 6 month EULA/ToU.

You can consider me "new player experience" reviewer. I review not only the game. Also MindArk itself as a company.

Est modus in rebus, sunt certi denique fines, quos ultra citraque nequit consistere rectum.
 
you brag about your success and you hope to go out 10kped or $ for this year :laugh:, you can only be in the trader because saw your turnover hunt / craft / mining you have not much to say.
My EU budget has dropped by almost 80% compared to the old "correct" return year (without being positive) so sooner or later someone will pay what I do not pay anymore.:rolleyes:.

dude, don't project your failure on me.

I dont "brag".
I just claim you can play without monthly deposits.
And I have proven it.
Surely, I did it my way and that was be NOT clicking all day, but also taking some time in between to use my brains instead of my index finger.
Sure, I did take it slowly. But as I also wrote before, the faster you want to go (as in most games) the more you have to pay.

I'd rather skill up slowly without depositing, than to get to lvl 100 by just throwing in tens of thousand of dollars.

All I claim is that this universe offers many different possibilities to play for free.
But as with everything, money makes money.
The more money you put in, the more you can make.

I found a nice balance to afford my current speed.


And we all know how disgruntled you are about your returns. And that you always complain how bad things are for you.
And again, the fact that you're still here, even though you constantly complain, means that I'm right.
It's your spirit that keeps you here. And it's that same spirit that keeps the game alive! :wise:


And let it be noted the EL tracker is by NO MEANS an indicator about someones success int he game.
It mostly just an indicator about the cycle speed of an avatar.
 
It seems to me that you never learned how to play and at the beginning you only had luck as a beginner. But for all those who know how to play, it is the other way round. Before loot 2.0 you needed very very expensive tools with high dpp to reach 90%. Now it's better for those of us who do not have so money but we know how to play. The return is 95% TT. But, Do not forget 95 will be always less than 100 and you will lost for ever and your crying will never end. Sorry but people have not why show you how it doing well. If you cant, you must leave the game, thats all.
 
It seems to me that you never learned how to play and at the beginning you only had luck as a beginner. But for all those who know how to play, it is the other way round. Before loot 2.0 you needed very very expensive tools with high dpp to reach 90%. Now it's better for those of us who do not have so money but we know how to play. The return is 95% TT. But, Do not forget 95 will be always less than 100 and you will lost for ever and your crying will never end. Sorry but people have not why show you how it doing well. If you cant, you must leave the game, thats all.

whom are you talking to?
 
both of you are missing the point xD
1.) it's about how long the money put in will last, how much playing you get for the buck
2.) they've announced they want to reduce the costs to play and volatility with 2.0.
before 2.0, returns were 80+% in hunting/mining in the runs, 90+% in crafting runs, at least for me.
now with 2.0, returns are as low as 60% on hunting/mining in runs and as low as 79% in crafting runs, at least for me.
What actually happened in the game is the opposite of what they did want to achieve with 2.0.
Did you guys already forget their 2.0 announcement and what they did want to achieve with it?

nah, not missing the point.
I'm just looking at my ped card and avatar value.
As long as it goes up I really dont care about statements.
Sure, things changed. So I adapted and went on.

You're just staring yourself blind on your %%% returns.
I rather spend my time staring at the game to find opportunities.

very simple example
You could depo 10000$ and go waste it all in a month.
Or you could depo 10000$, buy deeds and waste the revenues in a month.
Both play styles are different, but both styles are good if you're ok with it.
The first lets you cycle fast! And maybe go broke fast.
The last lets you cycle slow, but makes you go on forever.

Other example.
You could hunt/craft tt stuff all day and you go broke eventually (unless you got luck on your side)
Or you could hunt MU mobs and continue cycling.
The first can let you cycle great amounts since you dont have a burden on selling stuff, but may make you go broke quickly.
The last might slow you down a bit to find the right mob and since you need so sell your stuff at enough MU to continue cycling and go on forever.


That's not hard to understand, is it?
But THAT is the essence of staying afloat in this game without going broke!


I totally miss that point of view in the OP.
 
dude, don't project your failure on me.

I dont "brag".
I just claim you can play without monthly deposits.
And I have proven it.
Surely, I did it my way and that was be NOT clicking all day, but also taking some time in between to use my brains instead of my index finger.
Sure, I did take it slowly. But as I also wrote before, the faster you want to go (as in most games) the more you have to pay.

I'd rather skill up slowly without depositing, than to get to lvl 100 by just throwing in tens of thousand of dollars.

All I claim is that this universe offers many different possibilities to play for free.
But as with everything, money makes money.
The more money you put in, the more you can make.

I found a nice balance to afford my current speed.


And we all know how disgruntled you are about your returns. And that you always complain how bad things are for you.
And again, the fact that you're still here, even though you constantly complain, means that I'm right.
It's your spirit that keeps you here. And it's that same spirit that keeps the game alive! :wise:


And let it be noted the EL tracker is by NO MEANS an indicator about someones success int he game.
It mostly just an indicator about the cycle speed of an avatar.

it does not make sense, you tell me that you play at your own pace to arrive at the 100th without spending money, and I tell you that by spending money you will not earn more than by not spending money :rolleyes:.
the more I invest, the more I lose. and no more I win currently earn ,so before proven anything invested in the hunt / craft is you will see that even with peds it is completely random or dinamic (term MA).
If you are in the box of the accounts a items TT + you will have more success but how much of rerolls player will have to do before having the good one.
you are really playing a game because you seem to be working:laugh:

now it's more completely random the volatil return, the beautiful shutdown programmed by MA every 2/3 weeks around for adjust your loot :D
 
nah, not missing the point.
I'm just looking at my ped card and avatar value.
As long as it goes up I really dont care about statements.

if you don't care about statements, then why do you join a discussion that is about statement? xD
 
it does not make sense, you tell me that you play at your own pace to arrive at the 100th without spending money, and I tell you that by spending money you will not earn more than by not spending money :rolleyes:.

No, correction.

YOU did not earn more by spending. since you are just "spending" it.
Maybe you should "spend" less and "invest" more?

Also, I never claimed I didnt spend any money.
For sure I did.
I depoed more on this game than I will ever do in ANY game.
But managed to increase the money I depoed before I actually started "spending".
Clicking discipline I call that. My first 4 years in game were dedicated to make money. And not to make skills.
Skills are coming now. Now I'm spending. But not to much to go broke.

the more I invest, the more I lose.

Well, maybe you should reflect to yourself if your current style is good for you?
So, you didnt "invest", you "spended".

You know that buying ammo is not really an investment, right?
 
if you don't care about statements, then why do you join a discussion that is about statement? xD

No, the discussion was about a noob who made a nice first impression about the game and it's lousy financial position.

And all I tried was to create some depth to his review. Trying to open his eyes to the deeper meaning of entropia.
Something a noob simply can't grasp.
The magic of entropia.

It's that magic that keeps folks like you and Morfoc in the game, even though everything sucks, the game is bleeding you dry and driving you to madness.
But still you guys are here.

So as I said to morfoc, he being still here proves my point about that magic.
 
It's that magic that keeps folks like you and Morfoc in the game, even though everything sucks, the game is bleeding you dry and driving you to madness.
But still you guys are here.

So as I said to morfoc, he being still here proves my point about that magic.
please stop using false assumptions, like that the game would bleed me dry.

i've joined this discussion with:
As it went for me:
Loot 2.0 and reduction in cost to play got annouced > depoed to expand crafting and stuff
Loot/Crafting/Mining 2.1 went live > costs to play are often 2-4 times higher than before 2.0* > MA hasn't addressed this issue in over 8 months > time to sell my stuff and withdraw the money

*sure, there may a hof in 2030 that puts me to their target return, but untill then, the costs to play are simply significantly higher than before 2.0

didn't say anywhere that MA would take all my peds away. If anything sucks me dry, it's the withdrawals.
 
No, correction.

YOU did not earn more by spending. since you are just "spending" it.
Maybe you should "spend" less and "invest" more?

Also, I never claimed I didnt spend any money.
For sure I did.
I depoed more on this game than I will ever do in ANY game.
But managed to increase the money I depoed before I actually started "spending".
Clicking discipline I call that. My first 4 years in game were dedicated to make money. And not to make skills.
Skills are coming now. Now I'm spending. But not to much to go broke.



Well, maybe you should reflect to yourself if your current style is good for you?
So, you didnt "invest", you "spended".

You know that buying ammo is not really an investment, right?

personally I never write investment in my money deposit, I talked about money that I turn over or my total peds available.
many take this game as a job or an extension of a real life :laugh:
I have a job and I earn a good living in my job that I appreciate , EU is just a hobby by others I have , I do not spend my time counting how much I earn etc,for cons I realize when my account this emptiness has a huge speed despite of important hunting sessions with large sums.

There is no notion of time compared to other games by when you have a hollow period that you want to devote to EU, MA bother to recover a maximum of your peds in a minimum of time.
 
And all I tried was to create some depth to his review. Trying to open his eyes to the deeper meaning of entropia.
Something a noob simply can't grasp.
The magic of entropia.

It's that magic that keeps folks like you and Morfoc in the game, even though everything sucks, the game is bleeding you dry and driving you to madness.
But still you guys are here.

So as I said to morfoc, he being still here proves my point about that magic.

Most people tend to avoid things that make them mad and make them bleeding (compulsive gambling, for instance)

I do not claim that I understand this "magic" because I behave like most of the people - I avoid such "magics".

Perhaps, this "magic" is simply a heavy addiction?
 
both of you are missing the point xD
1.) it's about how long the money put in will last, how much playing you get for the buck
2.) they've announced they want to reduce the costs to play and volatility with 2.0.
before 2.0, returns were 80+% in hunting/mining in the runs, 90+% in crafting runs, at least for me.
now with 2.0, returns are as low as 60% on hunting/mining in runs and as low as 79% in crafting runs, at least for me.
What actually happened in the game is the opposite of what they did want to achieve with 2.0.
Did you guys already forget their 2.0 announcement and what they did want to achieve with it?

And you miss the point too.
If you play smart and invest your deposits with brain, it lasts forever.

I am in a possition where I wouldn´t need to deposit anymore, but still depo my 20€/month to support EU/MA.

My accounts value constantly increasing, not only by skillgains, also by PED value after MU.

I did a fair number of fail investments in EU, shit happens!
I am still on the profiting side, considering my total deposits vs the value of my items (skills not even included), if I sell it all today.

It matters how you approach to EU, how you play it, what style you play.

If I would deposit more, it would just increase the speed of improved value.

You may ask, why I don´t deposit more to create more value on my account.
Its a matter of trust and risk calculations.
Personally I consider every € deposited as a lost €, thats why I don´t spend more than 20€/month.
Even with that small deposits I would lose some thousand € if EU shuts down befor I can withdraw anything.

Actually I don´t even considering to sell anything or to withdraw some PEDs, as I still have my fun in EU.

For me EU is playing a game, not making my living from it.
I dont even need to profit, although I do it.

I konw some people who constantly lose in EU, who dont care at all, because they simply enjoy to spent the money for the entertainment they get. There was times when I thought that way, too.
I have adjusted my playstyle and it works much better for me now, than it did in the past.

MA could make this game the best game ever, if they start fixing the economy, add some deepth into the game and deliver what they have advertised in the past.
Sadly they lost the story, did not deliver and that hurts the trust of the playerbase.
Exactly this is the main problem why some old players left the game and it is hard to keep newer players in game.
The game mechanics itselfs (loots) are fairly good and cost to play really acceptable, even if you play on a constant loss, what is not needed if you play smart.
If you lose more than you can accept, its only your own fault. Adjust your playstyle!

There is a lot activitys in EU, that are way above my budget, where I very likely will lose more than I am willing to lose due to low turnover. Do I do this activitys? NO!
Sure I still could try it and hope for lucky loots, but there is no luck involved at all if you play smart.
Many explained it already, its just you who dont get it.
 
Most people tend to avoid things that make them mad and make them bleeding (compulsive gambling, for instance)

I do not claim that I understand this "magic" because I behave like most of the people - I avoid such "magics".

Perhaps, this "magic" is simply a heavy addiction?

yep, for sure.
For some it surely is an heavy addiction, sitting behind the slots all day hoping for a win.
For others it's an escape to reality, to meet friends and just wondering about.
For some others it's a challenge, a big puzzle to solve as how to survive without going bankrupt.
 
If you play smart and invest your deposits with brain, it lasts forever.

I know that, but that simply doesn't solve the issue, that loot 2.0 isn't what it's supposed to be, based on comparison of what they've announced vs. how it plays out in the game.
 
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