Question: MU economy or Gambling economy?

Xavier_Jr

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Xavier Jr Riquelme
Are you planning to return to an economic system based on MU, or will you continue with a game based only on gambling like with EP crafting?

[Do not forget that any system prefers allways the most simple path. Thats the reason why Crafters prefer EP crafting now, such as they used to prioritize the oa-101 crafting in the old times.

I understand that to counteract the use of UL gear and to incentive use of L gear, you have implemented the Armatrix L series that can give more loot than the old UL gear (up to 7% more) due to better "efficiency" (a new variable). In addition, for the same reason You also have implemented L enhancers to improve all the equipment, which should encourage the Manufacturing/Consumption/Extraction of resources Cycle.

But while exist EP-bps, crafters will be dedicated only to that and the economy based on mu allways will be broken.]
 
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Magnus Eriksson:
Markup between participants is and always has been a critical component of the Entropia Universe Real-Cash Economy model.
 
Magnus Eriksson:
Markup between participants is and always has been a critical component of the Entropia Universe Real-Cash Economy model.

Any plans to compensate impact on economy form EP blueprint?
As a mid-level crafter I make a lot of component, but positions where some demand exists is very few.
 
Magnus Eriksson:
Markup between participants is and always has been a critical component of the Entropia Universe Real-Cash Economy model.

While I like to believe you, and I know you didn't make the Explosive BPs, but everyone I know agrees that the Explosive BPs have literally destroyed the Entropia Economics!!! All ingredients of the Explosive BPs are bought with no markup from the TT, so no exchange with the community. As before all BP ingredients were purchased in one way or another from other players thus giving back to the community...

I'm positive if a vote with the entire Entropia community was made to remove the Explosive BP the vote would be a landslide in favor of removing it!!!
 
While I like to believe you, and I know you didn't make the Explosive BPs, but everyone I know agrees that the Explosive BPs have literally destroyed the Entropia Economics!!! All ingredients of the Explosive BPs are bought with no markup from the TT, so no exchange with the community. As before all BP ingredients were purchased in one way or another from other players thus giving back to the community...

I'm positive if a vote with the entire Entropia community was made to remove the Explosive BP the vote would be a landslide in favor of removing it!!!

Such a question has been posed to the community and was met with overwhelming support.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-remove-Explosive-BPs-(or-change-them)-Part-2
 
Adding sweat to EP3/EP4 (and may be few more pretty unusable stuff like oil/robot residue) should fix situation a bit.
Other idea -- add moonleaf boards to EP3/4 crafting with sweat.
 
But while exist EP-bps, crafters will be dedicated only to that and the economy based on mu allways will be broken.]

buy more of my stuff, then i can do more non-EP crafting... as long as stuff expires not going to craft more of that.
If you want more non-EP crafting just buy more L stuff =)
So far, hunters & miners refuse to use L stuff and gravitate towards UL stuff and then you really claim EP IV would be what's destroying the eco....

EP IV isn't destroying the eco, all the UL hunting/mining gear is!
 
Adding sweat to EP3/EP4 (and may be few more pretty unusable stuff like oil/robot residue) should fix situation a bit.
Other idea -- add moonleaf boards to EP3/4 crafting with sweat.

Why discriminate at the 3 and 4 and not just make it even across all 4 levels?
 
Let me stop you all before further foolishness persists.
EP I is not a gamble blueprint, nor is II as these provide effective generation of explosive projectiles.
EP III and IV costs are extremely disproportionate to what they should be.


However, being sorry about your own market returns and thus wanting to force other playres in an ego-centric method to buy your stuff because you want to make money off of their bad habits is not something that needs to happen.

In addition the flood of 'gamble clickers' which is being apparently remedied over time was horribly damaging to the economy before, EP gives a way to funnel them into one category/blueprint and remove their harm from the economy flow.


The ammo market is one meant for flooding on the output, to deal with people selling below cost to produce. The output must be as close to 100% as possible, and thus in an unstable market nanocubes help provide economic stability while changes are implemented, a non-moving calculation point for economic points and control, Nanocubes are good when managed properly, bad when used completely. Their use should also be adjusted downwards over time.

What we need is these blueprints adjusted, where part of the blueprint requires some sort of resources from the economy, and for III and IV to have their prices brought into reasonable scale for their accessibility. Their price on output, however, needs to be kept as close to 100% as possible on the outgoing side unless you plan on mixing in universal ammo to power rocket launchers or having them use it in the first place. The blueprints do need adjustment, however, but it should be done carefully in increments. Say 7% usage of a low markup oil, 7% of a low markup enmat and 7% of a low markup ore. At 110%, this is 102%*2.5, or about 106%, for the outgoing projectiles.

If pure ore was used, that could be 5x worse on the outgoing markup of the projectiles all the way to 130%, which totally ruins anyone's ability to ever use explosives. If flooders bring 106% projectiles down to 103%, then that's fine and safe.

However this needs to be done carefully as then you reintroduce the pool of people that will purchase resources at 'whatever price' because they're a gambling addict misusing a crafting machine as a pseudo slot machine(it's not...), craft them, and then sell them at a loss back into the pool. Their flood destroys the markets and will compete on the outgoing side with the people trying to intelligently make an honest survival which destroyed the game before. This was why EP was invented, imo: To move the people that were 'gamble clickers' off of flooding the economy.
Before, nobody could make anything crafting at one point so everyone started quitting since they couldn't afford the $50,000 USD needed to get above the skill level required for producing non-flooded items.

I think something like slowly implementing change in iterations would be a wise decision, as the economy load could really send some markups spinning, and utterly destroy any sort of profits that could be made by players trying to actually earn something instead of just lose lose lose because they want to misuse the crafting machine as a slot machine.



buy more of my stuff, then i can do more non-EP crafting... as long as stuff expires not going to craft more of that.
If you want more non-EP crafting just buy more L stuff =)
So far, hunters & miners refuse to use L stuff and gravitate towards UL stuff and then you really claim EP IV would be what's destroying the eco....

EP IV isn't destroying the eco, all the UL hunting/mining gear is!

The problem isn't in the UL stuff, necessarily. It is in the fact that (L) stuff is lootable from hunting loot on caly, crashing the markups of anything (L) that is crafted in those categories, or screwing hunters by resulting in large TT volumes of 'markupless' stuff when they loot these (L) guns that become non economic as mark up rises above 108%.

Hunters should loot rare UL items uber rarely and in very very small quantities making it rare, the majority of us should have (L) equipment entirely if you ask me. UL should carry a good price and be a lot more rare than it is today.
(L) armor and guns should never be looted.
 
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It is in the fact that (L) stuff is lootable from hunting loot on caly, crashing the markups of anything (L) that is crafted in those categories, or screwing hunters by resulting in large TT volumes of 'markupless' stuff when they loot these (L) guns that become non economic as mark up rises above 108%.

Hunters should loot rare UL items uber rarely and in very very small quantities making it rare, the majority of us should have (L) equipment entirely if you ask me. UL should carry a good price and be a lot more rare than it is today.
(L) armor and guns should never be looted.

That's something i can agree too.
The lacks of demand of crafted L items is the issue.
Both my L stealth armor pieces and L joplin armor plates expired today, so no need to go out and by more materials to make more of them. And since i don't need to make more, the L BPs of the L armor plates won't expire, so i won't need to get materials to grind more BPs...
 
That's something i can agree too.
The lacks of demand of crafted L items is the issue.
Both my L stealth armor pieces and L joplin armor plates expired today, so no need to go out and by more materials to make more of them. And since i don't need to make more, the L BPs of the L armor plates won't expire, so i won't need to get materials to grind more BPs...

Yeah...seeing the looted armors like martial and all that pour out in hunting loot that carries no markup at all anyways(screwing hunters) when they could be getting markup loot to sell to crafters to craft items to sell back to them.....well it breaks my heart.

As a hunter we don't want it as there's so much of it that nobody winds up wanting it. We can just wear all the noob armor adj pixie/musca/hunter ME that the multiple accounters make floods of... or loot (L) faster than we can burn it. We want stuff that can be sold into the economy at an actual markup instead.

As a crafter, it hurts to see all this great stuff we could produce but it doesn't have a place because Caly is looting all this stupid (L) stuff that ruins other economies totally....on BOTH crafter and hunter side!
 
That's something i can agree too.
The lacks of demand of crafted L items is the issue.
Both my L stealth armor pieces and L joplin armor plates expired today, so no need to go out and by more materials to make more of them. And since i don't need to make more, the L BPs of the L armor plates won't expire, so i won't need to get materials to grind more BPs...

Not to speak of the complete series of Vivo FAPs, completely obsolete to craft it, as nobody buy it.
And many many other crafted things nobody will ever buy!

Stop the flood of UL items, reduce L drops from hunting and make crafted items competitive to existing UL gear, then we will see some MU on resources that are needed to craft this items (look at Armatrix, thats the way to go!)
 
As a hunter we don't want it as there's so much of it that nobody winds up wanting it. We can just wear all the noob armor adj pixie/musca/hunter ME that the multiple accounters make floods of... or loot (L) faster than we can burn it. We want stuff that can be sold into the economy at an actual markup instead.

maybe caly needs a mobs like RT has, the horny little devil.
500 hp, L30, insane attack speed, rather large regen. I started their mission at evader l15 and decayed like 10-20 PED of jarhead/jaguar armor an hour. But after 2 stages of the mission and 3-4 days i was evader level 17-18... sadly didn't get any of the L30+ fentropia loot :(
 
To all the new guys in the game, we tell you that the biggest problem is NOT the existence of ULs. When before there was no EP bps, the crafters looked for the OA-101. Only very few crafters like Leonis made weapons by MU. The others always looked for gambling for their slot machine at the lowest cost. The solution we all know. Remove EP bp or put in EP bp an oil, a mineral or a sweat depending on level of that BP
 
maybe caly needs a mobs like RT has, the horny little devil.
500 hp, L30, insane attack speed, rather large regen. I started their mission at evader l15 and decayed like 10-20 PED of jarhead/jaguar armor an hour. But after 2 stages of the mission and 3-4 days i was evader level 17-18... sadly didn't get any of the L30+ fentropia loot :(
Edit: Damn of course it gotta be in hell and taxed spawn. I would've loved to skill on it otherwise... Not willing to give away 5% of my loot just to skill though...
 
To all the new guys in the game, we tell you that the biggest problem is NOT the existence of ULs. When before there was no EP bps, the crafters looked for the OA-101. Only very few crafters like Leonis made weapons by MU. The others always looked for gambling for their slot machine at the lowest cost. The solution we all know. Remove EP bp or put in EP bp an oil, a mineral or a sweat depending on level of that BP

you mean the gamblers were looking for the materials mined with the OA-101 , right?
RT has EP IV gamblers too, yet the economy is thriving, why? because most people stick to L gear instead of UL gear...

The issue is UL gear, as it kills demand of L items.
 
Edit: Damn of course it gotta be in hell and taxed spawn. I would've loved to skill on it otherwise... Not willing to give away 5% of my loot just to skill though...

well, i mainly did it for skills, tier II/III & adaptive fire rate components had pretty high MU and then there was also the L30+ fentropia loot.

Certainly worthwhile hunting, even if there's 5% tax (or is it 2.5%?), when the MUs are high on their loot. Only problem may be paying shipment fee to ship it to caly.

Anyway, i wish there were more mobs like that, specifically for evade skilling at the price of rapid armor decay, even in non-taxed areas with some okay loot.
 
you mean the gamblers were looking for the materials mined with the OA-101 , right?
RT has EP IV gamblers too, yet the economy is thriving, why? because most people stick to L gear instead of UL gear...

No brother is not like you said. RT is a economy at other level. A level from a little comunity. Their rules are not extrapolable to Calypso. Sorry you do not know because you are a new player. You should have live in old times to understand how economy it was shit for EP bp existence... I know you want to have reason allways, and for that you write and write to everybody. But is not like you said. Sorry. This is my last comment for u. You can talk what you want.. Bye
 
No brother is not like you said. RT is a economy at other level. A level from a little comunity. Their rules are not extrapolable to Calypso. Sorry you do not know because you are a new player. You should have live in old times to understand how economy it was shit for EP bp existence... I know you want to have reason allways, and for that you write and write to everybody. But is not like you said. Sorry. This is my last comment for u. You can talk what you want.. Bye

okay bro, we know you're pissed you don't get 20-100 or even more% profit margin from gamblers having to spam with hunted/mined loot anymore.
 
you mean the gamblers were looking for the materials mined with the OA-101 , right?
RT has EP IV gamblers too, yet the economy is thriving, why? because most people stick to L gear instead of UL gear...

You you cant compare the economy on RT to Caly. If population doubled on RT mu would drop. You have moaned plenty of times of people lowing mu on auction of stuff you craft.
 
You you cant compare the economy on RT to Caly. If population doubled on RT mu would drop. You have moaned plenty of times of people lowing mu on auction of stuff you craft.

ofc i did.
Market history: TT+30
My items in auction: TT+30
others items in auction: TT+0 min-bid TT+30 buyout...
their item sold for TT+0 or TT+1 , been complaining about them not being able to auction properly :laugh:
 
ofc i did.
Market history: TT+30
My items in auction: TT+30
others items in auction: TT+0 min-bid TT+30 buyout...
their item sold for TT+0 or TT+1 , been complaining about them not being able to auction properly :laugh:

I...admittedly have been obtaining extremely underpriced items off the auction on other planets >.>

The auction fees totally stifle auctions being CREATED on other planets, they were implemented to earn Mindark money and stop resellers...but we need resellers!! :laugh:
What's the direction you want to take?

So people trying to speculation purchase...that was solved by the economy now in many cases....why do the auction fees exist? WHy are we limited to 1 week? Why can we not get free/cheaper extensions?


You you cant compare the economy on RT to Caly. If population doubled on RT mu would drop. You have moaned plenty of times of people lowing mu on auction of stuff you craft.

One thing as well: Rocktropia has a lot of people being idealists hoping for a better future so they pay more to keep the economy moving....while things improve slowly with time to match their faith.
However...it's still an unbalanced economy that is being developed and worked on faster than others in many cases. Things have a terrible volume, however, and Armatrix screwed people there. There's lots that gets TTed frequently on RT.

With the economy, (L) stuff in hunting loot has to STOP ENTIRELY, use the token system instead. The demand for items needs to increase in relation to the rate at which they enter the economy, which means lowering faucets for these items.

If we improve the economy like so:
1) Remove (L) from loot, make it craftable only, and UL EXTREMELY RARE by nature.
2) Continue like the Armatrix series where even Meele have a healthy ammo use(tt item) : decay ratio so we can afford to pay a nice markup for them and not get screwed on our economy.
3) Keep cost-per-click and average input markups reasonable and output TT costs sane
4) Continue using components with reasonable crafting processes/markups/stages
5) Expand on usage of planetary-unique resources in the global crafting picture
6) Improve item variation instead of shrapnel on Calypso and other planets
7) Keep EP gamblers from flooding output market, just incentivize them to craft other things but gently leave the 'stupid option' there

Then the entire game will continue the upward swing it is on.

(Note many of these things are already changed or changing! Keep it up Mindark, yeah!!)


The key is the economy has too many 'stuck wheels' and not enough grease to make ped flow around the economy quickly and effectively without people having to do so damn much work.

Shops? They don't show on the auction so they don't hold a good utility value versus the time taken to advertise them. It's so hard to find things in shops, and so hard to sell things in a shop it's ridiculous and stifles people investing in them.

Auctions? Bids can't be extended and fees are hard, and lack to-the-pec accuracy. The fees were put in place to stifle traders...literally to stop resellers from earning ped. But now it's keeping people from cycling ped and inputting into the system because they can't get the tools they want and can't find things in shops because it's so frustrating.

How are we supposed to make common resources from other planets available to other people without spending forever trying to sell our shit in trade channel spam for 5% profit? Nobody has time for that and it's not fun or engaging.

Now we need traders to list items on other planets for people to venture forth, but...trade is hindered? It makes little sense, it's holding the entire game back.
 
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Yes. Only between people who use PC forum there are 250 players asking elimination of EP Bps.. Imagine inside game...!

I was one of those players who asked for a BP like Explo that make it possible for crafters to skill at pure TT input, as already back that days many miners and hunters did use only UL gear and there was only a very small market for crafted L gear.
It is good that we have it.
It generates a lot cheap residue what is very good for item crafters who actually craft to sell their items at reasonable prices. It is also good for skilling as you don´t have to pay MU on your skills.

In that old times you mention it was cheaper to chip in crafting skills at 5000% MU than gaining the same amount of skills by actually crafting, as most resources have been 130-150% MU and the products pure TT food.

THANKS MA this time is finally over, and we crafters can skill on just TT input, same as every miner or hunter can do aswell !!!!

I reallly dont want to pay the freeplay for F-101 unamped miners, and I dont want to pay the freeplay for Opallo farmers, that dont use anything crafted.
This kind of players and there is a lot of them just flood the market with resources at pure TT input, and with introduction of shrapnels at fixed 101% convertion rate even less than TT input as shrapnels can be bought at 100,5% in nearly infinite amounts.

Leave the Explo BPs how it is, its what crafters have needed.
 
I reallly dont want to pay the freeplay for F-101 unamped miners, and I dont want to pay the freeplay for Opallo farmers, that dont use anything crafted.
This kind of players and there is a lot of them just flood the market with resources at pure TT input, and with introduction of shrapnels at fixed 101% convertion rate even less than TT input as shrapnels can be bought at 100,5% in nearly infinite amounts.

Everyone pays in, and nobody has a choice whose 'freeplay' they pay for. There is a place for everyone in the economy, everyone has to do their part in the economy. The problem is everyone is pushed into desperation mode thinking everyone is trying to take food off each other's plate because there's so little to go around.

Markups are improving and need to continue improving, but good blueprints solve this. Everyone should be able to make their piece if they study what resources lie where and move with the market demand.
 
Everyone pays in, and nobody has a choice whose 'freeplay' they pay for. There is a place for everyone in the economy, everyone has to do their part in the economy. The problem is everyone is pushed into desperation mode thinking everyone is trying to take food off each other's plate because there's so little to go around.

Markups are improving and need to continue improving, but good blueprints solve this. Everyone should be able to make their piece if they study what resources lie where and move with the market demand.

I buy ammo at TT to skill hunting --- I pay noone!
I buy probes at TT to skill mining --- I pay noone!
I buy nanos at TT to skill crafting --- I pay noone!

In the old days, the first 2 things was possible, the last thing was not possible.

Most miners in the old days and many hunters bragged about never losing anything and play completely for free by selling for MU.
If I hunted f.e. fouls with my opallo I could claim that for myself aswell 800% for foul bones and nearly every foul young dropped a few of them. Easy to break even!

To whom they sold their loots for MU?
To whom did I sell this foul bons for 800% MU?

Crafters paid for miners and hunters, easy as that.
That was fact and sad reality!

Back that days I started crafting, as I wanted to be a crafters as I have been a crafter in other games back that days aswell.
What I learned very fast:
It is damn expencive, a pure money sink and zero rewarding unless you get some of that extremly rar BPs to produce items that are actually sellable.
Even back that days it was not much from crafting that was really sellable, to be honest today we have more options in crafting for sellable items than we have had in that old days, although most of todays craftable things are pure TT food.

I unlocked BPC with Basic Filters BP, as it was cheapest skilling BP at only 120% MU for a pure TT food product.
120% just to get skill? OK ?
If that is ok for you: I am selling shrapnels 120% exclusivly to you, for your hunting and mining skilling, we will see how long you will accept that!

Thats why we need explo BP !
Fairness!
 
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