Question: PvP

Hey MA team,

Back in the day PvP combat used to be a popular and very competitive part of the game; from the introduction of Amathera and Land Grabs up through the creation of Space, player vs player combat was always an optional but very popular and important (and sometimes profitable) part of the game. This lead to lots of investments in high end UL and L gear that drove markups and profits for those that provided said gear to so called PKers, as well as retention of a lot of competitive players that enjoyed PvP and stayed around for it alone (spending lots and lots of PED killing each other).

However it seems for the past few years Mindark has removed any reason for a player to even consider PvP as an option as there is no longer any viable markup in lootable PvP to drive people into those zones as well as other than Takuta Plateau, no good land areas to fight over that are worth the 1+ hour (even if nobody fires a shot we still have to stand around) land grab battle every month to hold the land.

In PvP4 we at least used to have blood moss and himi (huge markups when L vivo heal kits were popular) and then later pyrite for mining and lots of markup in loot on the mul mobs in the area to drive people to hunt and mine there as well as fight for control of the zone.

Now MA has made PvP4 90% lysterium and other 0 markup ores and very little pyrite, where you can get pyrite elsewhere much more often and without chance of getting looted (therefore never having to spend a pec on PvP gear),or finding much lysterium. Mindark has also removed the ores looted from the mul line of creatures as well as drop rate on any items or components that used to have markup are now almost 0, removing any incentive to hunt them other than completing iron missions.

So my question is this: Is there a reason MA has removed any incentive for PvP from the game, and do you have any plans in the near future or as a long term goal to revamp and/or revitalize PvP combat in Entropia Universe?

It certainly has been a challenge to balance PVP properly over the years. Our long term goal is to overhaul and revitalize PVP in Entropia Universe. The changes implemented in Loot 2.0 have opened up the available design space for PVP specific changes, and we look forward to taking advantage of that. However, engagement with PVP has traditionally been relatively low, so it is not currently at the top of our priority list.

Henrik|MindArk said:

It certainly has been a challenge to balance PVP properly over the years. Our long term goal is to overhaul and revitalize PVP in Entropia Universe. The changes implemented in Loot 2.0 have opened up the available design space for PVP specific changes, and we look forward to taking advantage of that. However, engagement with PVP has traditionally been relatively low, so it is not currently at the top of our priority list.

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Engagement with pvp has been low because it needs a overhaul.

Build it and they will come, not the other way around.

Xen said:

Engagement with pvp has been low because it needs a overhaul.

Build it and they will come, not the other way around.

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Yes, I do not understand their logic on this. Seriously, why would people wanna do PvP when it's so damn boring at its current state?

Henrik|MindArk said:

It certainly has been a challenge to balance PVP properly over the years. Our long term goal is to overhaul and revitalize PVP in Entropia Universe. The changes implemented in Loot 2.0 have opened up the available design space for PVP specific changes, and we look forward to taking advantage of that. However, engagement with PVP has traditionally been relatively low, so it is not currently at the top of our priority list.

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If you want to provide engagement in PVP there are a few things that could be used, one of the major ones is an economic reason to go.

If mobs provide resources that are required by the economy, markups will rise on these sought after resources until people have the courage to face each other, or only the high levels will get these. That's life!

In addition, lowering the risk to something reasonable like 10-20% of all of your loot and a maximum of 100 ped lootable, with a portion of the loot coming back as a rare crafting resource would be great too, just remember to add a safeguard against people bringing the same friend over and over into pvp 4 to loot them to profit off the markup of the resource.

The problem in lack of usage of most areas of the game that suffer from under usage is they are not tied into the economic resource flow, and could be easily solved by their inclusion into it.

(L) PVP oriented weaponry and armor that lack economy but provide great PVP effect, and are craftable only by resources gained from within the pvp lootable pvp zones (space and planetside alike) would provide one small stimulation.
Creation of a scope/laser equivalent for melee that comes from these areas would also help drive this need to go into pvp 3.

People generally are risk adverse without a sufficient carrot, and the stick does not work.

Additionally, the utility value of killing people, whether it be buffs/boosts from doing it, positions and ranks that give actual utility based reward, cosmetic items from your capabilities as a pvper and more could help drive people to PVP.

The fun factor alone won't work ever imo, as people are paying real money. There has to be an economic reward.

What i think they mean is that

a. As they have it now there is no incentive to go to a pvp lootable zone.

b. If they made it as it was then a group would form up which would collaborate and dominate the area again resulting it little economic activity in the area besides markup inflation and profit for the dominant group.

Hence, the value for MA to work is not there and i would say they are spot on correct with the assessment. ( this is based on MY limited understanding and i might be wrong here)

PvP died because of the exponential 'power creep', and as mentioned, nothing really of value to loot to make the risk worth it.

Where it used to be if you had average gear you could make up for it with actual skill, now it has become more or less a numbers game.

Standardized equipment loadouts and hp caps would be the only way you could create a viable lootable pvp that isn't only just for the 1%.

Xen said:

Engagement with pvp has been low because it needs a overhaul.

Build it and they will come, not the other way around.

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I don't think this is true. People just don't want PvP at all, for the most part.

ChronicDeadEye said:

PvP died because of the exponential 'power creep', and as mentioned, nothing really of value to loot to make the risk worth it.

Where it used to be if you had average gear you could make up for it with actual skill, now it has become more or less a numbers game.

Standardized equipment loadouts and hp caps would be the only way you could create a viable lootable pvp that isn't only just for the 1%.

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This.

Shift PvP into battle sim and make it a sub-game with combat points earned for your avatar which you can trade in for regular use or something.. kinda like battle tokens in WoW. Maybe do planet battles or continent battles where people devote to a faction but 'level' the playing field by using a pvp instance with battle sim tech

Hypnotyk said:

This.

Shift PvP into battle sim and make it a sub-game with combat points earned for your avatar which you can trade in for regular use or something.. kinda like battle tokens in WoW. Maybe do planet battles or continent battles where people devote to a faction but 'level' the playing field by using a pvp instance with battle sim tech

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Do it in parallel but not force everyone.

Divinity said:

What i think they mean is that

a. As they have it now there is no incentive to go to a pvp lootable zone.

b. If they made it as it was then a group would form up which would collaborate and dominate the area again resulting it little economic activity in the area besides markup inflation and profit for the dominant group.

Hence, the value for MA to work is not there and i would say they are spot on correct with the assessment. ( this is based on MY limited understanding and i might be wrong here)

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I don't care how you try, entire groups cannot stop me from mining Arkadia PVP 3. You just have to try harder to combat that inflation, more reward to the little guy who does. Just have to make the areas bigger, terrain allowing more hiding, no exploits.

However making weapons in pvp not cost anything unless they hit would be nice..same with explosives. It would mean more heated intense battles without the fear of firing and reliance on exploits or never shooting and running.

Psynergy said:

I don't care how you try, entire groups cannot stop me from mining Arkadia PVP 3. You just have to try harder to combat that inflation, more reward to the little guy who does. Just have to make the areas bigger, terrain allowing more hiding, no exploits.

However making weapons in pvp not cost anything unless they hit would be nice..same with explosives. It would mean more heated intense battles without the fear of firing and reliance on exploits or never shooting and running.

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The little guy or the group that does is not the parameter of concern. Right now what we are implying is the % of individuals of the whole that it effects, is certainly not a big number and as such as per what has been said by MA today is not on top of the priority list.

Xen said:

Engagement with pvp has been low because it needs a overhaul.

Build it and they will come, not the other way around.

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I DUNNO HOW TO MAKE THIS MORE KNOWN

EU needs an upgrade and overhaulplease

impatience is making me miss the changes. i really hope this camera system change is at least partially satisfying... and credit where credit is due. thanks MA, for doing this and reading our opinions.

Xen said:

Engagement with pvp has been low because it needs a overhaul.

Build it and they will come, not the other way around.

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Agreed. People also need to be coached that rarer resources are available there in order to bring them there...and the stuff has to be there. Then people will engage, while right now the economy is based on secrets.

The funny thing is that this is destroyed by players not really MA, MA did listen to players.

PvP was "OK" at a time, but some crying players did complain 24/7 becouse they didnt stand the PvP and after a while MA changed as the players asked them to do.

I´v said "You don´t know what you wish for".

MA need to stop to listen to the people complaining and start to listen to the playerbase overall, ofcorse MA will be contacted by the complaining people and not the happy people.


This is how i saw it happen in my eyes.

Oleg said:

I don't think this is true. People just don't want PvP at all, for the most part.

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Divinity said:

The little guy or the group that does is not the parameter of concern. Right now what we are implying is the % of individuals of the whole that it effects, is certainly not a big number and as such as per what has been said by MA today is not on top of the priority list.

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This. PVP has never been popular with the masses even when it was at its peak. Hence, quite rightly it's currently lower in priority list.

GeorgeSkywalker said:

This. PVP has never been popular with the masses even when it was at its peak. Hence, quite rightly it's currently lower in priority list.

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I did enjoy the heated debates on forums thou. BA vs CK, AOE vs why so seriours/ house of gamers (who ever SOC joda,messi, linzy etc are in).

In my opinion PVP systems should work as before as it gives an incentive to swing and to be the strongest of all to be able to kill any player in PVP and to make a profit and anyone who says that PVP is not interesting - it's all weak players who always kill and there was nothing they could do, even though I knew 3-4 miners who only dug and felt pretty comfortable that they produced resursy despite the fact that they were weak and typically did not fight, but to such as they had invented fun weapon Voporaizer.
For me pvp has always been the most interesting place in the game
PS. MA try to revive pvp

bigdaddy trim said:

I did enjoy the heated debates on forums thou. BA vs CK, AOE vs why so seriours/ house of gamers (who ever SOC joda,messi, linzy etc are in).

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each of them can do nothing when 4-5 average players are against him(everyone dies, no matter how strong they are) but it also gives you an incentive to be stronger

Divinity said:

What i think they mean is that

a. As they have it now there is no incentive to go to a pvp lootable zone.

b. If they made it as it was then a group would form up which would collaborate and dominate the area again resulting it little economic activity in the area besides markup inflation and profit for the dominant group.

Hence, the value for MA to work is not there and i would say they are spot on correct with the assessment. ( this is based on MY limited understanding and i might be wrong here)

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Totally agree!

Atm there is nothing of value to gain in lootable PvP, occationally just go their to a daily mission (Mulmun/Attacker).

As it was in the past, it was always the same people roaming the area and kill everyone who tried to get something valuable out of it, making them fairly good profits (PK is a lot cheaper than mining yourself or hunt in PvP4).
So the problem was that those who tried and failed paid more for the value of their stolen loot as the PKers had to pay to steal that loot from the miners and hunters. I know there was even some PKers who actually where active inside lootable PvP beside PKing, but to many just camped there to shoot the miners for pure profit without risking anything themselves.

Thats one thing why I avoided lootable PvP. It was simply cancer.

Actually I like the idea of PvP, even lootable. But how it was in the past and how it may be again if there is anything of higher value to find, is not well balanced and just makes a group of victims (loosing all time) vs a group of PKers (winning all time).

To be honest, I think it is extremly difficult to find a solution due to the open skill system, which automatically results in a serious gap between older and newer players (skills/HP)
Another thing is the availability and price of good PK gear. If you need at least 10k$+ in gear befor you should even consider entering PvP to actually do PvP, there is something completely wrong!
Well the situation on the last thing is a lot better these days as we have really much L gear that is usable and competitive vs old style PK gear, I still remember the PKer elites whinning about this overpowered rocketlaunchers, that finally gave the medium skilled miners a chance to defend themselves.

Oleg said:

I don't think this is true. People just don't want PvP at all, for the most part.

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+Rep I dont understand why MA suport theft...

LAZZ said:

+Rep I dont understand why MA suport theft...

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First of all, it's not theft it's competition. Lootable pvp is 100% avoidable. Secondly, when someone says pvp they don't necessarily mean lootable pvp.

LAZZ said:

+Rep I dont understand why MA suport theft...

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Xen said:

First of all, it's not theft it's competition. Lootable pvp is 100% avoidable. Secondly, when someone says pvp they don't necessarily mean lootable pvp.

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Yes, calling it "theft" is silly and has nothing to do with what I said.

Risk/Reward balance has always been the issue, if the rewards go down and the risk stays up it just doesnt work.
Mindark should have introduced pvp looter/offence/defence professions that allow to specialize in pvp and have direct impact on looting back ammo, reducing item deterioration on weapons, armor, tools as well as extend duration of pills. As costs go down for players they will become more active even if rewards become less over time - higher activity will lead to more potential rewards if pvp becomes sustainable.
These basic skills/professions could solve so many issues in pvp planetside and in space.
Ontop of that there definately need to be pvp only loot, items and components that are used in crafting for other pvp items or upgrade missions.
One issue with pvp in the past has been that earning from pvp was not related to the targets you shot, instead it often was encouraged to stand around in force to ensure noone tried to put up a challenge for the reward, but if the reward had always been activity based then activity would have continued.

There is nothing in game that gets the heart racing like lootable pvp - you find the right balance you will have plenty of people talk about it, think about it, contemplating to be 'in on the action'.

TBH I don't understand why anybody would care about PvP in this game. Unlike other games that have, you know this thing called mechanics, EU has no damage types, no mitigation types, no blocks/dodges, no dots beyond the useless arson thing, no audio cues, no anim cues, no room for any sort of creativity in builds. Skill is meaningless, it's literally down to who has the better gear and ping. Bunny hop bunny hop whack! So boring and mindless.

Detritus said:

TBH I don't understand why anybody would care about PvP in this game. Unlike other games that have, you know this thing called mechanics, EU has no damage types, no mitigation types, no blocks/dodges, no dots beyond the useless arson thing, no audio cues, no anim cues, no room for any sort of creativity in builds. Skill is meaningless, it's literally down to who has the better gear and ping. Bunny hop bunny hop whack! So boring and mindless.

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Skill may not be as meaningfull in a planetside 1vs1 but combat in pvp is a whole different ballgame when you have a landgrab going or a fleetbattle - then its not just about ping and aim skills but actually about tactics, communication and teamwork (the 3 things that usually make alot of online games attractive to most people).

In all mmo games I play PVP... Entropia universe is unique and pvp had been fun in the past.. as far as balance it really is a pay to win game period.. no way around that. Mindark is missing a huge market for certain players by avoiding pvp updates. Money lost all around. Zero reason to be in lootable pvp now.. much sad.. Landgrabs are dead.. much sad..game got pretty boring for me at this time.. much sad.. sad sad sad

Detritus said:

TBH I don't understand why anybody would care about PvP in this game. Unlike other games that have, you know this thing called mechanics, EU has no damage types, no mitigation types, no blocks/dodges, no dots beyond the useless arson thing, no audio cues, no anim cues, no room for any sort of creativity in builds. Skill is meaningless, it's literally down to who has the better gear and ping. Bunny hop bunny hop whack! So boring and mindless.

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Uhhh yeah EU has damage types... have you ever looked at items or armour?

PVP died because it is no longer fun. It has become only about theft. Read the conversations in the space thread and you will see what I am talking about.

Out in the PVP areas on planet how fun is it when someone 50 levels above you and high end UL gear kills you with one shot out of range of any weapon you have? Not fun at all when you have zero chance. Again it is only about theft.

pirates are thieves. there is no game the way it is now. it's not fair. their victims are almost all unaware and others are unaware they were carrying lootable stuff. and i heard one story where a trusted friend flew my buddy into space and looted him for 1k PED. how is that even partly fair?

if pirates in space had a challenge from their victims ability to shoot back and the dirty pirates were unable to tell whether their sitting duck was going to be a challenge - then i would wholeheartedly support it. as it stands they are dooshes and MA is nasty for allowing it to be like this.

they wouldn't even answer my support case once when i discovered an empty pitbull in my inventory and asked them if i had been looted after i got shot down by a pirate.

pvp in the red areas is not that much different really. if some high end uber is sitting there with his 50k sniper rifle and some brave but ignorant nubee drops a probe in there, or does daily attackers(mob) for instance, and comes out empty because of that. to me that is also not fair.

what's fair is when people know they are going into pvp to fight other players like in the land grabs. they can gear up as best they can and fight hard for a nice prize. now that is fair, even if the winner is the same guy that wins them all because hes got the best gear.

pvp could be fun but now its dreadful to almost everyone. just another one of the everything that needs a redesign.