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Question: Space Economy, the Final Frontier?

Stefan 008 Bond

Stefan 008 Bond

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Stefan 008 Bond
While many questions will be asked about specific space content, I wanted to ask about your intentions and visions of using the space economy. Not only do we need a more coherent tie, and inter-relationships between the different planet economies but we also need a "higher purpose" as well for the playing community at large.

The forthcoming space economy has the ability to fill this need. Without elaborating here, I will instead leave two simple sketchs I made a little while back..

What we have now:
eueconomy.jpg



What we could have:
eueconomywspace.jpg


Comments or thoughts?

Thanks,

008
 
This is a picture illustrated concept of what we need most critically!!!

Decentralization, less hindrance on trade between planets, and more requirement of resources from each planet's unique offerings to encourage exploration and make the world go around.
 
Henrik|MindArk said:
Our vision for space is one in which there is a healthy and vibrant interplanetary economy between the various planets and space entities. We also envision space-specific content, but we are not prepared to share specific plans at the moment.

I would also refer to our earlier response regarding space development:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?308683-When-will-Space-be-fixed
Click to expand...

This sounds like you agree with the second picture, which i find encouraging.
Things to keep in mind if you want to get to this 'what could be' scenario:
You need weight restrictions and item count restrictions for all forms of transport (sleipnir, quad, equus, privateer,mothership,auction).
You need to have higher costs eg much more fuelburn/non-warp capable for ships that exceed weight/itemcount limitations.
You need longer travel distances between planets and more options to travel at different speeds for a higher price.
Warp needs to stop being an close to instant thing.
Interceptors should never be cargoships.
Stacking of (antigrav)containers inside one another to bypass itemcount and or weightrestrictions, needs to be impossible - if you want people to carry 5000 items in containers then you need to create such container, if you want them to carry a million kg without being encumbered you need to offer this type of container (dont indirectly allow it by stacking 20 lux luggages inside one another).
Logging off while on transport ships can not be a method of bypassing weight/itemcount restrictions nor should it allow to bypass lootable pvp and gain an advantage in the game by not 'playing'.
You need a form of universal orders in the auction system - eg create transport missions automatically at space stations that match local planetary orders - that way pilots could deliver orders on one planet by getting ressources from another.
Suddendly players in the whole universe could make their orders locally and get delivered what they need without having to switch planets themself (nor would they carry the risk).
Balance pvp risk in space by making fuel partially lootable or introducing another type of fuel for higher traveling speed - this would force 'pirates' to carry a risk (fuel) to reach the speed to hunt cargo ships and therefor making themself a lucrative target to those cargo ships or a new profession of space 'police'/'bountyhunters'/'security service'.
Create interplanetary dependencies - crafting blueprints that need components from multiple planets for example to create special high energy 'fuels', or modules for spacecrafts(faster subwarp drives, better energy shields, torpedos, mines, special ammo),etc.
Create competition - allow ships to tier up or enhance their modules to specialize in more cargo capacity, faster traveling speeds, more shields, etc. customizable ships drive economic growth as players will try to adjust and be better at what they do.
Add space mining and enhance risk in space (more mobs, more danger, more aggro, more to adjust to, more to keep existing ships busy) - this will keep more players occupied as they get spread out more and not all compete over the same ressource - then you can introduce more ships, options to finetune the overall economy over time.


Essentially there is lots of things that need to happen to get to the second picture, but its doable if you get started - it wont happen by waiting for it or just adding a single blueprint somewhere - the loopholes need to be closed first.
 
For as long as space is an unavoidable lootable space, I dont want it in the centre of any picture.

It's an inherently flawed design.

Mindark would be better focused on not getting their new players to quit the first time they encounter it and get robbed from some &$#! who has played years longer than them.

It's not rocket science, it's psychology.
 
Mega said:
For as long as space is an unavoidable lootable space, I dont want it in the centre of any picture.

It's an inherently flawed design.

Mindark would be better focused on not getting their new players to quit the first time they encounter it and get robbed from some &$#! who has played years longer than them.

It's not rocket science, it's psychology.
Click to expand...

I suggest to add a 'safe space container' that you can enter through a planetary tp and where you pay a fine (towards transport mission loot pool) based on amount of loot carried. These containers have a large weight and require lots of storage space and can be loaded on ships at space stations and carried to other planet spacestation and can not be lootet. Once the ship arrives at its target the container gets moved to that spacestation. The inside of the container is on a non-pvp server keeping you safe at all times. Voila you got your safe way between planets for a 'safe price'. It definately would help on the psychology aspect for many players which have grown an adversion to space over its bad implementation for the last 8 years.
(There could be fluffy cushions inside the container ;) )
 
One inherent flaw of space is that Mindark allowed players to fly into space with their inventory untouched from the very beginning, people growing up on non-pvp planets who never trained to live a life were you constantly watch your back or have your friends do it for you. Of course this would lead and will continue to lead to many bad experiences for people who just go unprepared.
One way to change this whole experience would be to make it impossible to go to space with 'undeclared' goods.
Have an import/export office/terminal on every planet that allows you to choose amongst your 'lootables' (and nonlootable items of which you have multiple) to select what you 'declare' - everything that you declare you can take to space everything else will automatically get moved to storage (new tab 'undeclared goods', where things remain for up to a week until they get autosorted in the other tab categories) with a notification to you about the items that have been moved back to storage. This would ensure that noone ever again will enter space with goods that were unintented, noone will have a bad surprise and everyone who risks goods does so fully conscious about it.
If these declared goods get traded or lootet in space, they would still be declared goods but no longer match the name of the avatar who declared them therefor when entering a planet the new owner would have to declare them again generating an incentive to negotiate with a respective previous owner to trade goods back for a fee (as the previous owner would not have to declare them again) - this could open up the possibility of a 'black market' in space. Additionally constantly declaring goods from other people when comming from space, could lead to negative karma which could lead to increased 'import tax' up to the point where the 'smuggler profession' becomes viable (eg trading goods to other players to get them imported, another incentive for the 'black market').
Planet partners could have the option to adjust their import/export taxes depending on how much separation they would like between economies as well as earning a share from the taxes to boost their local economies and/or personal revenue.
Depending on the total volume of declared taxes per planet partner their could be optional impacts to their economies.For example local currencies/currency exchange rates that alow further adjustments to the efficiency of local items on homeplanets - local currencies could be used for item repairs in local repairtools to allow reduced repaircosts for items used on their homeplanets. These dependencies could open the door for currency trades which could help boost local economies when they get weaker as well as slow down large economies when they become to dominant (items from weak economies becomming more efficent as items from strong economies become less efficient).
These currency trades will in turn generate volatility in item markups which will drive trade throughout the universe.
 
Mega said:
For as long as space is an unavoidable lootable space, I dont want it in the centre of any picture.

It's an inherently flawed design.

Mindark would be better focused on not getting their new players to quit the first time they encounter it and get robbed from some &$#! who has played years longer than them.

It's not rocket science, it's psychology.
Click to expand...

Personally, I am currently in the camp of allowing interplanetary travel through the teleport system but only naked or with a very restricted amount of gear.

Everything else must be shipped through space via cargo. I truly feel this is the best solution for all involved. We simply cannot allow mu% loot to travel freely across space the way this game is structured, that is essentially what we have now, and it has all but decimated all other Planet Partner economies except Calypso.

Sometimes I wish everything didn't have to be so grandiose with the way MA develops. It would be nice to see them add smaller bits of content and polish more regularly. I saw MA's answer about space mob iron missions, they said it would be part of a larger space release.. why? Throw the space folks a space bone!

And even though there is many issues with transport as JBK has pointed out, MA could easily just enable TP to other planet features naked to alleviate some roadblocks and sort out the cargo later. At the very least players would be free to "bounce around" and I'm sure all the Planet Partners would be very very grateful for that one simple change..
 
Stefan 008 Bond said:
Personally, I am currently in the camp of allowing interplanetary travel through the teleport system but only naked or with a very restricted amount of gear.

Everything else must be shipped through space via cargo. I truly feel this is the best solution for all involved. We simply cannot allow mu% loot to travel freely across space the way this game is structured, that is essentially what we have now, and it has all but decimated all other Planet Partner economies except Calypso.

Sometimes I wish everything didn't have to be so grandiose with the way MA develops. It would be nice to see them add smaller bits of content and polish more regularly. I saw MA's answer about space mob iron missions, they said it would be part of a larger space release.. why? Throw the space folks a space bone!

And even though there is many issues with transport as JBK has pointed out, MA could easily just enable TP to other planet features naked to alleviate some roadblocks and sort out the cargo later. At the very least players would be free to "bounce around" and I'm sure all the Planet Partners would be very very grateful for that one simple change..
Click to expand...

Comming from Rocktropian miner who do smuggle stuff to Caly. The stuff i smuggle to Caly has no use or is not needed on RT, but it is needed on Caly. So i dont like any type of roadblocks or import tax. I sometimes already need to pay for a wrap, tp down to planet, AH prices and then cost to fly back.
 
Stefan 008 Bond said:
And even though there is many issues with transport as JBK has pointed out, MA could easily just enable TP to other planet features naked to alleviate some roadblocks and sort out the cargo later. At the very least players would be free to "bounce around" and I'm sure all the Planet Partners would be very very grateful for that one simple change..
Click to expand...

While i think that such a teleport option for a respectively high fee could be an option, i would be very carefull about this as mindark is not the fastest with following up on started developments and we all know what happened when they introduced space 8 years ago and didnt fix it right away - now everyone thinks they should have the right to bypass space if they want to (and thats not how you develop a game). Try to avoid setting precedents, because it will always be so much harder to take away something that you give to fast.
We also know what happened when mindark sold equus and promised transport missions - all previous shipowners got shafted when part of their bussiness got taken without a replacement for 5 years.
Atleast with the 'save space containers' (see previous post) - mindark could offer this transport option while providing bussiness to shipowners - and not just taking away even more bussiness with nothing in return.
 
Mega said:
For as long as space is an unavoidable lootable space, I dont want it in the centre of any picture.

It's an inherently flawed design.

Mindark would be better focused on not getting their new players to quit the first time they encounter it and get robbed from some &$#! who has played years longer than them.

It's not rocket science, it's psychology.
Click to expand...

Completely true. Only 10 or 20 players, pirates or corsairs or transporters, likes to talk about space.
Because normally nobody has any pleasure in playing to be robbed :(
 
Xavier_Jr said:
Completely true. Only 10 or 20 players, pirates or corsairs or transporters, likes to talk about space.
Because normally nobody has any pleasure in playing to be robbed :(
Click to expand...

Over 100 people here on pcf from all walks of entropia say otherwise (with plenty additional people who are supportative but are not part of the list cause they have no forum account) ->
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?282864-Space-State-of-the-Universe-an-overview-and-outlook-of-past-and-future

Show me a poll that proves your point otherwise its just your opinion with made up numbers.
 
Xavier_Jr said:
Completely true. Only 10 or 20 players, pirates or corsairs or transporters, likes to talk about space.
Because normally nobody has any pleasure in playing to be robbed :(
Click to expand...

Lol 10-20 people in one ships team / crew per night maybe! Most big ships have 500ish people on their guest list they need to clear out often! :scratch2:

I don't like Rocktropia, I certainly don't jump on every RT thread to bash it, somehow space bashers make a hobby of it though...


Just wanted to add - Stefan your graphic is brilliant, thank you for creating it.
 
MA got to break this down into manageable chunks. they need a team of competents. they can divide the project into secret compartments with need to know to keep their proprietary secrets. object oriented programming allows this, they can do it one step at a time, but they need a waaaaay bigger team. and a waaaay bigger universal view (zeitgeist). and a very brave and very competent systems engineer/analyst.

Dennis Antonsson - Entropia Universe Product Owner - hopefully knows this or is one and can do this - space is big project but it probably needs to be broken down as well - the players have thought this through thoroughly - i mean the vested ones like john black knight and granny rowan render and others too numerous to mention.

if it were up to me i would have regular focus groups with these big players and "tap" them for their great ideas and best ways to develop the game. everyone wants to help. and anyone that depoed that kind of money should automatically be in the political arena(focus group). you know like the citizenship the CLD holders were supposed to get.
 
John B Knight said:
Over 100 people here on pcf from all walks of entropia say otherwise (with plenty additional people who are supportative but are not part of the list cause they have no forum account) ->
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?282864-Space-State-of-the-Universe-an-overview-and-outlook-of-past-and-future

Show me a poll that proves your point otherwise its just your opinion with made up numbers.
Click to expand...

While i agree that it would be great to see space become developed to a point where it would actually be useful and have content, lots of different mobs to hunt, and some safe zones for hunting/traveling in as well.....there is atleast 2000 people playing entropia actively (perhaps more than that but i don't think there is full tracker for this), 100 people is not really a good incentive for MA to put a ton of resources into it if they have other priorities.

My opinion: I think they should sell off space to another entity that could develop it...essentially a PP as it is its own instance. If someone has the money to do that, then contact MA and make them an offer....or pool a whole bunch of people like minded together and do that....most likely the only way to get space developed anytime soon.
I don;t spend time in space other than going to another planet...essentially it is a waste and might as well not be there in its current state....fix it/sell it or generally do something about it.
 
Darth Revan said:
While i agree that it would be great to see space become developed to a point where it would actually be useful and have content, lots of different mobs to hunt, and some safe zones for hunting/traveling in as well.....there is atleast 2000 people playing entropia actively (perhaps more than that but i don't think there is full tracker for this), 100 people is not really a good incentive for MA to put a ton of resources into it if they have other priorities.

My opinion: I think they should sell off space to another entity that could develop it...essentially a PP as it is its own instance. If someone has the money to do that, then contact MA and make them an offer....or pool a whole bunch of people like minded together and do that....most likely the only way to get space developed anytime soon.
I don;t spend time in space other than going to another planet...essentially it is a waste and might as well not be there in its current state....fix it/sell it or generally do something about it.
Click to expand...

Thats right! Besides, If u use statistics from many years like was used by Knight, there are not only 2000 active players, maybe 5000, 6000 or many more players who was not interested in space or to be robbed. Then their "100" people who loved space, only represents 2% or less from total population of entropia universe.
 
Darth Revan said:
While i agree that it would be great to see space become developed to a point where it would actually be useful and have content, lots of different mobs to hunt, and some safe zones for hunting/traveling in as well.....there is atleast 2000 people playing entropia actively (perhaps more than that but i don't think there is full tracker for this), 100 people is not really a good incentive for MA to put a ton of resources into it if they have other priorities.

My opinion: I think they should sell off space to another entity that could develop it...essentially a PP as it is its own instance. If someone has the money to do that, then contact MA and make them an offer....or pool a whole bunch of people like minded together and do that....most likely the only way to get space developed anytime soon.
I don;t spend time in space other than going to another planet...essentially it is a waste and might as well not be there in its current state....fix it/sell it or generally do something about it.
Click to expand...

I have transported over 3000 different avatars over the years between planets, most of which are excited when traveling through space - furthermore getting 100 people on the forum to agree on anything is a pretty good indication of where the majority of players is on a matter - i however understand that there is the tendancy of those adverse towards space to tweak the numbers in arguments to their favour...
 
bigdaddy trim said:
Comming from Rocktropian miner who do smuggle stuff to Caly. The stuff i smuggle to Caly has no use or is not needed on RT, but it is needed on Caly. So i dont like any type of roadblocks or import tax. I sometimes already need to pay for a wrap, tp down to planet, AH prices and then cost to fly back.
Click to expand...
No worries, what I am proposing wouldn't change anything you do now or add any cost, it would actually give you another option (which would be faster but yes more costly). The option of instant tp of the avatar while the goods get transported. This would be a a big convenience and really help the PP as well as actually make the transport system meaningful.

Aloisius said:
MA got to break this down into manageable chunks...
Click to expand...

Agreed, sometimes it frustrates me that MA makes these big plans and forgoes incremental progress through more frequent updates and development..

Someone asked MA if they had plans to let the players help develop space and this is how I always hadenvisioned it.

I brought up the notion of Space Sector Deeds. Through that, you could have unlockable content/development progress via activity in the sector such as hunting, mining, turning in crafted goods through missions etc ala Cyrene.

Anyways, the other huge reason I really think MA should prioritize starting this (or any) kind of space development much higher is because they could tap into a whole another (huge) player base. There isn't another space RCE out there. Dont you think that would grab player's attention?

Also, Space sim and economy players are a dedicated long term bunch.. just sayin'
 
John B Knight said:
One inherent flaw of space is that Mindark allowed players to fly into space with their inventory untouched from the very beginning, people growing up on non-pvp planets who never trained to live a life were you constantly watch your back or have your friends do it for you.
Click to expand...

This is true but absolutely needs to be put in the right perspective: People don't need to be trained or "educated". They CHOSE to live in a VR where that is not the case, i.e. where pvp was a choice to play inside certain enclaves embedded in a non-pvp world. Now we have the planets as enclaves inside of pvp space, a reversal of paradigm which MA has never been forgiven for except by the minority that thrives on it.
 
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