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  1. #101
    Old Alpha Darth Revan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evey View Post
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    [SIZE=5]Fuck science, statistics, probabilities, basic math or common sense!!
    When did we move onto flat-earthers and anti-vaxers?

  2. #102
    Elite Kerham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuckiX View Post
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    I would like to add something as an "average joe"
    I am writing just to answer to this guy, he seems to have the right mindset, from others I would expect more reason given their experience ingame.

    Mate, you lack some background in regards to EU. The only thing which stayed fixed since day 0 of Entropia is that 10 PED equals 1$. From a business perspective, it is in itself a huge achievement for MA, looking around what gigantic names in finance and whatnot went bellyup in the meantime.

    However, they set themselves up some traps along the way, from the point of view of average joe you're mentioning. Which in itself is correct.

    That is, given that a dollar is a dollar and was always a dollar, the turnover and skill inflation ingame per last 16 years since game went gold are a few magnitudes above IRL.

    If I am not mistaken, the real-life $ inflation per last 16 years is roughly 30%. There should also be some purchasing power modification taken into account.

    One way or another, compared to 10+years ago, the player would comfortably pay +- aprox 20% more PED per time spent in game & hp killed.

    The problem is, 14+ years ago only extreme hunters (of which some proved to be mainly botters and had their asses banned out) would reach 900 ped per hour turnover. That meant throwing some, say, mode merc at atrox stalkers or spider stalkers (which were different mobs to today) and reaping some very solid reward for it. Imk2 was also up there somewhere.

    However under this tier there was nothing. Like, literally nothing. The next tier of turnover if you lacked the cash to buy MM/IMK2 (2-300k peds at times) was, dunno, adj v1, mk5me etc. Also some fat cash for it.

    Next tier was already ep40/41 and the likes and then just mk2/valor and finally the lower horde of jester/1x0.

    A mid skilled player back then (100k skills let's say not very spread, pretty much your case) if would had have the cash to chip in for adj v1 (here I am at a loss, 16k maybe? can't remember) would have looked at a turnover of, maybe, 1k ped for day.

    Keep in mind this was represeting the top 10% of active playerbase. Majority of us were floating at some 4-500 maximum per day turnover and sweating plebs at whatever found on the ground, from 10-30 peds smth per day.

    While nowadays you have at lvl15 ArMatrix lp-15 which can chew some 6-700 per an evening of play. And what is ArMatrix lp-15 in the scale of economy?

    This is where Rick (and the overwhelming vast majority of players) fail, but also MA failed by lack of foresight. I hold against him that he's not reasonable, it should be obvious where he's wrong, but I also hold against MA, that they didn't thought at a normal-minded level of expense for somebody with a job and a family, otherwise the cathegory most prone to sustain this game. It's the Ricks who pay for the servers, not the messis.

    I do hope in the long term they will come up with a sidegame, a branching which loot 2.0 and eff allows, a sort of low-budget planet but very demanding skillwise. Somewhere where to kill a mob which costs like an argo young but hits like a lvl60 cyrene mob, that's what is needed. Maybe transform that useless Next Island into this.

    So that's what I wanted to wrote. From this perspective the game is profoundly broken and you must by all means resist to the temptation of skills. Don't grab the highest weapon you can use, it's real money just as it was 10-15 years ago, but easier to spend.

  3. #103
    Stalker messi91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerham View Post
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    It's the Ricks who pay for the servers, not the messis.
    We all pay the servers with some %.The only difference is that I pay with Rick's money my share of server's cost (insert other costs here)
    I had to correct that before new registered players read some stupid shit and spread it in the Universe as facts.
    Just because some people decide to be born losers doesn't translate into he pay the servers. Its a lot more easier for losers to say that because its obvious their PED are gone and now they must deposit another so like everything in life we must blame someone about our fault.Its never our mistake.

  4. #104
    Slayer Spawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by messi91 View Post
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    We all pay the servers with some %.The only difference is that I pay with Rick's money my share of server's cost (insert other costs here)
    So you are saying here that Rick is actually paying.. which strengthens what Kerham said.

    Quote Originally Posted by messi91 View Post
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    I had to correct that before new registered players read some stupid shit and spread it in the Universe as facts.
    So let it be known that Messi pays the server costs with Rick's money. You said it, so those are the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by messi91 View Post
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    Just because some people decide to be born losers doesn't translate into he pay the servers. Its a lot more easier for losers to say that because its obvious their PED are gone and now they must deposit another so like everything in life we must blame someone about our fault.Its never our mistake.
    It's not about blame.. it's just that average Joe pays the server costs, because you don't (You use Rick's money)

    The problem that Kerham describes is real though. What if all the average Joe's do something like this:

    Your withdrawal with ID: 14233301 for 17000.00 PED has been successfully registered. We will now process your order.

    And no longer pay the server cost? Who's money is needed to pay for the server then?

  5. #105
    Elite Kerham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by messi91 View Post
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    We all pay the servers with some %.The only difference is that I pay with Rick's money my share of server's cost (insert other costs here)
    I had to correct that before new registered players read some stupid shit and spread it in the Universe as facts.
    Just because some people decide to be born losers doesn't translate into he pay the servers. Its a lot more easier for losers to say that because its obvious their PED are gone and now they must deposit another so like everything in life we must blame someone about our fault.Its never our mistake.
    Mate, I kind of avoided you usually. Please watch your language in regards to "losers".

    You can do what you do because you live in Romania and there's this intersection of cost of living/cost to play/IRL circumstances which makes it a thing only in a few Eastern European countries. For the average guy in western Europe, your style of living is neither possible neither desirable.

    - we can't withdraw with the same financial liberty as in Romania, from a tax point of view
    - Entropia can't possibly pay as much as an average IRL job (roundabout 1800 netto in UK/Netherlands/Germany/France/Austria, some few hundreds more in Scandinavia or Switzerland but also hell of expensive), month by month, no ifs and buts
    - Entropia doesn't offer the security of a work contract from Western Europe (security which in itself doesn't exist in Romania, workers' rights are a joke), neither the security of the IRL economy in itself; IRL I will find a job if present employer goes bust, I wish Entropia will survive for decades to come, but is not reasonable for me to bet on it, neither for 90%+ of depositors
    - Entropia doesn't pay unemployment insurance/pension/medical healthcare/saving schemes, and then the actual refference is not the netto salary, but the before tax sum, and then we're comparing it with circa 3k-3,5k in mentioned countries; that's an average salary, medics, skilled programmers, financial consultants etc etc are raking in alot more (and we have such very well paid people in EU too)

    From these points of view, your most important investition in EU, which is time, is not a rentable investition for the "losers" elsewhere. The financial investition is actually easy for most of us. A regular consumption credit of, say, 10k-15k to get one set with various things is not so scary given the IRL economy, but the problem is that is not rentable, there is no reason to do it, for an activity which we do 2-3-4 hours per evening, 3-4 days per week and even less in average.

    Then, I am 39. I have some life behind me and some achievements, and my work is visible in most of Europe for the last 5 years and is still is and will be for the foreseable future. We are here from all walks of life, most of us decent people with families and jobs which share this hobby. We're not losers, not compared to you, anyway, you're nobody special except your dedication to the game, which of course is in itself an achievement, within the universe of the game.

    Now getting to your statement, is a fracture of logic. There are no $ in this game except deposited ones. If we are to believe your claims (such as "selling unl amount of esi") and seeing various selling threads of some uber items, and making some reasonable assumption about your overall value, and also assuming you're not insane, then you're well over your investition, most likely even discounting skills. Hence, you're running a positive balance versus the game itself (and I would guess it is so already for the last 2 years maybe even 3), so you can't literally pay for the servers. Go and check MA's report, their only source of income is deposits, there is nothing else. Decay ingame is not a recognised currency by any bank or financial institution, MA can't pay their bills with "decay", that is a business tool of balance for MindArk.

    That being said, I don't consider profitable players a burden for the game, they're the opposite, both as models and engines of various activities (e.g. Auktuma on crafted armours).

    It is a simple truth that from a business point of view and directly financially, MA survives from depositors who withdraw less than they deposited. As customers, these people have an obvious right to have fun, and that's where MA failed partially. In same time they do have a solid merit in keeping the game alive, so I am not quick to judge.

    Try to enlarge your horizon of thinking and cut down a bit that arrogance, it is not justified.

  6. #106
    Stalker messi91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
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    So you are saying here that Rick is actually paying.. which strengthens what Kerham said.



    So let it be known that Messi pays the server costs with Rick's money. You said it, so those are the facts.



    It's not about blame.. it's just that average Joe pays the server costs, because you don't (You use Rick's money)

    The problem that Kerham describes is real though. What if all the average Joe's do something like this:

    Your withdrawal with ID: 14233301 for 17000.00 PED has been successfully registered. We will now process your order.

    And no longer pay the server cost? Who's money is needed to pay for the server then?
    I am saying I pay the same cost as Rick is paying multiplied by the amount of turnover we are having.If you don't like my way of explaining things then I pay with my own money the server costs and later on using the game mechanics and tools and my ability to read the game history and using proper investment, time and everything else on this side of the world I am able to extract more value from my work than Rick does, therefore Rick lose twice while I lose just once to Mindark my share and later on I collect small % from players like Rick.

    Costs are real obviously, no problem in that though.I am glad you figured out Minark has a legal business plan that makes all of us consumers.

    If average joe decide to withdraw means he got what Mindark is well know for : Being able to return the money you currently have in your account at that date if you request them part of witch most of registered so I don't see anything wrong with that.
    I am not concerned what happen if one or two decide to take their money back since its not my business to analyse that and I don't see how this would affect my gameplay. I am sure Mindark has a plan for that.

  7. #107
    Stalker Sub-Zero's Avatar
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    It's all because Messi, has the top 1 item in-game and a shit ton of time/dedication.
    The Unique Reaper blade was basically made to make you be the one at top 1 profit player. And since MA can never lose, we're all paying for Messi's profits.

    It has the highest dpp, and highest efficiency in-game. It's a no brainer Messi can live off EU with it in loot 2.0. If he couldn't then it would be a really bad sign for the game and no hope for anyone. If I had that blade and skills to use it, i would totally quit my job and just play EU.

    The problem is the lack of balance, every few years there's been an era of 1-3 weapons which allowed rich enough players to sustain themselves and profit in RL because they were just so overpowered and eco.

    I don't think its right to have 1-3 weapons with such a massive gap in superior capabilities compared to other weapons, just so certain ppl with rich enough pockets can stay at the top.

    The game should take into consideration your looter skills (right now it seems placebo from MA) and what mob you hunt, and at what time in order to profit, not just Efficiency, and Dpp. So it should be brain involved to make profit not just gear.

    Loot 2.0 is basically like Loot 1.0, but it has severely limited access to profit for most ppl unless they can invest 100k+ in gear Nowadays have enough efficiency and dpp, and hunt right mobs with enough time/cycling, you can profit.

    At 80% efficiency from my own experience so far, it's really hard to profit, long term. It seems they only allow you to profit at 90%+ efficiency.

    In loot 1.0 you could use a regular item like 60% efficiency. And still profit if you used EST armor, with accuracy enhancers. Something that is no longer worth it anymore.

    Now most players who use 60% efficiency, can't profit longterm, unless they participate in events and win, and hunt big enough mob with enough MU to cover the 93-94% TT return.

    So it basically destroys hopes of most ppl to break even, or profit a little, because only 1% of playerbase can afford such gear. Hence the lack of balance.

  8. #108
    Stalker messi91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerham View Post
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    Mate, I kind of avoided you usually. Please watch your language in regards to "losers".
    Try harder next time.This time you failed and yes you are also a loser (by my own standards in this game we are all playing).I just watched my language and its adequate to your avatar in this game and your actions in this forum.As for your private life as you brought it up to the table please keep it for yourself and don't bring it to the table here its irrelevant and we don't give a shit.I don't really want to find out that you have the same habits as Rick's wife earlier presented on these forums just by himself, his words.Please!

  9. #109
    Elite Kerham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by messi91 View Post
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    Try harder next time.This time you failed and yes you are also a loser (by my own standards in this game we are all playing).
    When you engage in a public exchange of ideas, be them of any nature, you can't impose *your* standards. It just doesn't work this way.

    I will repeat what I said earlier, maybe it was too complicated. You log in EU to work. When you want to have fun, maybe you log into LoL or whatever. Of course, you could also have fun in EU, but your main effort in EU is work. Our work is 9 to 17 at some random job, wherever that might be. We log in EU primarily for fun. It is not a sustainable proposition to be a *loser* when is about fun, even if the fun activity itself might be a competition or pvp. *We* are not in a competition with you, our real income is made elsewhere. For *us* a profit of 1$ in a month might be fun, for you it would be a waste of time.

    *Your* standards stem from this business-like approach. *Our* standards stem from comparing EU to a restaurant lunch or an evening at some fair or whatever other hobbies/fun activities one might fancy. These are vastly different perspectives and MA failed to integrate them both, for the time being. I have faith they will settle it at some point, and come up with more options for more cathegories, Batsim or the defense/speed kill mayhem mode were steps in the right direction, imo.

    EU for the last 20ish months of activity costed me 'round 150$ monthly. That's the equivalent of three meals at a good restaurant and is about the maximum I am willing to pay on EU. For me personally, EU still provides fun, but I am a bit of a nerd about it. For others, I can totally see how it doesn't. In the same time, just as I would bash the waiter/cook for a failed order, it's totally legit to bash MA when they don't provide fun the way *I* want it. Because it's about *my* money. Same is valid for Rick, nomatter how wrong factually his objections might be (because them are, at least from a statistic point of view, a quackery). MA is the one with the burden of providing him a desirable service, because he is a customer, not the other way around.

    It is not Rick's fault that somebody with a skillcount of already 200k (prettymuch when the costs become out of pace with reasonable expectations) doesn't have any option in EU for actual fun. And he's 400k. It is MindArk's fault, and that is indisputable.

    Hence, *your* standards about wether or not me or other players are "losers" are unsubstantiated and, eventually, food for your ego, but that's your problem. You're, like, flexing muscles in the mirror, alone in the bathroom. Good for you, eventually, but it's not relevant for anybody else.

  10. #110
    Stalker messi91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerham View Post
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    wall of text
    I've read 5 minutes and I simply couldn't remember what I just read so i can't reply on point directly on the subject or a question.
    I will reiterate what I said in my previous text.We all pay server costs.The more we spend the more we pay.That was my initial correction and you are talking me to another dimension I am not interested to engage in a conversation with you mainly because I have nothing to learn from you to become a better player in this game.

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