Universal Basic Income

ubi is for the same idiots who think that this generation will be the last because climate change will kill the planet... lol
 
You mean automation's going to take away my remedial job as a telephone switchboard operator? Besides, we already have a Universal Basic Income.

It's $0.

The UBI is $0.

in 5 - 10 years, your job will be killed by AI, and your current boss will get your incomming trough a robot. Why not tax your ex workplace, and give you a ubi, if you dont have longer work? Into the metal industrie (mechanic) there got a lot workplaces lost, if we got computers for making the pieces, instead of a human. if i was young, i saw all this destroying of workplaces. Now, the AI is some thing more as a computer/mashine. It realy will kill a lot of our current workplaces and there will be not enought new work for everyone.
 
in 5 - 10 years, your job will be killed by AI, and your current boss will get your incomming trough a robot. Why not tax your ex workplace, and give you a ubi, if you dont have longer work? Into the metal industrie (mechanic) there got a lot workplaces lost, if we got computers for making the pieces, instead of a human. if i was young, i saw all this destroying of workplaces. Now, the AI is some thing more as a computer/mashine. It realy will kill a lot of our current workplaces and there will be not enought new work for everyone.

no way, this is utter bullshit. In 5 to 10 years not much will be different.
At the moment the opposite is actually happening. We have far to few workers available!
Our unemployment rate has never been lower as it is today.

Maybe what you say will be true in 50 years or more. But in 10 years we still need more workers than we can supply.
And once automation will kick in we need folks to operate the machines.
And once we don't need those anymore, skynet will try to destroy all humans, sending in terminators after us, so no need for a ubi than anyways.

So, to bad you lazy fuckers! No UBI and just work for your money!! If you want something for free, just watch the sun go up and under. :wtg:
 
To me UBI is a lazy way to implement a social safety net...giving money isn't always the best way to achieve exactly what you want.

But I believe people should be able to have the necessities of life, whatever their particular situation may be. I'm talking food, shelter, medical care, etc. In the end, this is cheaper than having them get sicker and sicker then they have to be taken care of anyways but at a higher cost to everybody. Not to mention it is just the compassionate thing to do.

I think providing basic needs for people actually means they can more easily actualize what they actually want to become. I think this really depends on your view, if people are self-motivated or if they are generally going to be as lazy as they can be.

Anyways, my two rambling cents.
 
no way, this is utter bullshit. In 5 to 10 years not much will be different.
At the moment the opposite is actually happening. We have far to few workers available!
Our unemployment rate has never been lower as it is today.

Maybe what you say will be true in 50 years or more. But in 10 years we still need more workers than we can supply.
And once automation will kick in we need folks to operate the machines.
And once we don't need those anymore, skynet will try to destroy all humans, sending in terminators after us, so no need for a ubi than anyways.

So, to bad you lazy fuckers! No UBI and just work for your money!! If you want something for free, just watch the sun go up and under. :wtg:

let's talk about that in 10 years :) In my country, ppl above 55 age mostly don't find any job again. So im sure, those are not lazy, they just don't get a job!
 
To me UBI is a lazy way to implement a social safety net...giving money isn't always the best way to achieve exactly what you want.

But I believe people should be able to have the necessities of life, whatever their particular situation may be. I'm talking food, shelter, medical care, etc. In the end, this is cheaper than having them get sicker and sicker then they have to be taken care of anyways but at a higher cost to everybody. Not to mention it is just the compassionate thing to do.

I think providing basic needs for people actually means they can more easily actualize what they actually want to become. I think this really depends on your view, if people are self-motivated or if they are generally going to be as lazy as they can be.

Anyways, my two rambling cents.


let's talk about that in 10 years :) In my country, ppl above 55 age mostly don't find any job again. So im sure, those are not lazy, they just don't get a job!


Well, in both case we already have a solution to that.
As a social safety net, in case you can't work due to ilness, age or whatever reason, there is social welfare.
You only apply for that if you CANT work and not if you just dont WANT to work.

A UBI is not a safety net. A UBI is just a way to make people lazy.
 
Well, in both case we already have a solution to that.
As a social safety net, in case you can't work due to ilness, age or whatever reason, there is social welfare.
You only apply for that if you CANT work and not if you just dont WANT to work.

A UBI is not a safety net. A UBI is just a way to make people lazy.

Just a question, did you ever had the situation to use your so called welfare? I don't know how this is in other countries, but here in my country, if you get welfare, you get near noting, and you will loose all your hard worked things like car, house, etc... maybe also the wife. Then, if you get welfare in my country, you will be observed like you be a criminal.

Realy, welfare is not the solution in long term, and welfare cost a lot of money too, just only for observation, controling, office and all the other cost. But ok, how i told, we will talk about this all in 10 years. I don't think i can change your mind yet :) , also same at me, you can't change my mind about that theme.
 
To me UBI is a lazy way to implement a social safety net...giving money isn't always the best way to achieve exactly what you want.
I disagree with the word lazy, but money sure isn't everything, I agree. For me, UBI is a new starting place and a new attempt at finding a balance between individuals, the local and the global.

For over ten years now I have thought about whether virtual worlds can fascilitate experiments into human nature at larger scales.
One thing I have noticed from the changes to the 'camera system' is that I am not terribly keen on stupidly pressing the 'F' key over and over again. I would prefer to keep my mind more active if I can, but if the lazy way is also 'faster', and skill gains are useful and speed plays a role, then there is an incentive included in the playstyle I dislike.

If society can afford to have me do stupid stuff at a low level of my ability and pay me for it, then it could quite possibly also give ppl a basic income and ask them to do something productive with some of their time - and that may end up being much more constructive.

It seems to me that a lot of RL is like sweating mobs. We can be so much better than this, surely?

I'm open to ideas - but maybe it's a chicken and egg sort of thing - we need ideas to get a good ubi implemented, and a good ubi implemented to get good new ideas....
 
Just a question, did you ever had the situation to use your so called welfare? I don't know how this is in other countries, but here in my country, if you get welfare, you get near noting, and you will loose all your hard worked things like car, house, etc... maybe also the wife. Then, if you get welfare in my country, you will be observed like you be a criminal.

Realy, welfare is not the solution in long term, and welfare cost a lot of money too, just only for observation, controling, office and all the other cost. But ok, how i told, we will talk about this all in 10 years. I don't think i can change your mind yet :) , also same at me, you can't change my mind about that theme.

"maybe also the wife." lol!!
Dang I have to sell my wife first before I get welfare!!
She's worth at least 12 camels!!!

Jokes aside, yes, you surely have a point. It's not much different here.
But instead of throwing out money for an UBI, why not improve the welfare system to better standards?

Just looking at myself, if I would get a UBI, I would instantly stop working!! And for sure Im not the only one!
I simply got to many hobbies and to little time.
To me, time is worth more than money.
But as it is now, money buys time, but you need time to get money first.
 
Just looking at myself, if I would get a UBI, I would instantly stop working!! And for sure Im not the only one!
I simply got to many hobbies and to little time. ...

Of course I could be wrong, but I doubt your income currently is at the level an UBI would be at. I assume you earn more, as do most people who work. Wouldn't UBI just make up part of your income in the future?

In conversations I've had, almost nobody would want to stop working anyway. The odd one or two, yes, and it's interesting to talk to them about that, I admit...
 
"maybe also the wife." lol!!
Dang I have to sell my wife first before I get welfare!!
She's worth at least 12 camels!!!

Jokes aside, yes, you surely have a point. It's not much different here.
But instead of throwing out money for an UBI, why not improve the welfare system to better standards?

Just looking at myself, if I would get a UBI, I would instantly stop working!! And for sure Im not the only one!
I simply got to many hobbies and to little time.
To me, time is worth more than money.
But as it is now, money buys time, but you need time to get money first.

Ok, and what you want do the whole day, if you get ubi, and this is the case why you give up your job? Watching TV and sleep 24/7 doing hobbies 24/7 ? I'm sure after 6 Months you start to feel bad and bored. But... if you get ubi, about you lost the job, and then you be not stressed about been too poor. Maybe you then start to study things, and learn other stuff, and maybe you be able to get a other job later, or you build a new buiz? On getting welfare, you only get some very small help for surviving and thats it!
 
Ok, and what you want do the whole day, if you get ubi, and this is the case why you give up your job? Watching TV and sleep 24/7 doing hobbies 24/7 ? I'm sure after 6 Months you start to feel bad and bored. But... if you get ubi, about you lost the job, and then you be not stressed about been too poor. Maybe you then start to study things, and learn other stuff, and maybe you be able to get a other job later, or you build a new buiz? On getting welfare, you only get some very small help for surviving and thats it!

No, I would not be bored at all!!
Creativity knows no boredom!

You're so far off thinking I would be bored after 6 months.
Just give me a piece of wood and I would make something out of it if there's nothing else to do.
Maybe I would write a book, or whatever. Everything but a boring job!!!

I would just sit back, relax, do stuff and never worry about my job.

Indeed, on welfare you just get the basic minimum to make sure you wont die. That will motivate you to get a job and do stuff to make some money.
A ubi won't. It simply doesnt motivate if you get enough money to live decently without a job.

Let it be clear, I would be totally in for getting a ubi. I would not be against it at all.
I would be the first to enjoy my retirement at the age of 43! :wtg:
 
No, I would not be bored at all!!
Creativity knows no boredom!

You're so far off thinking I would be bored after 6 months.
Just give me a piece of wood and I would make something out of it if there's nothing else to do.
Maybe I would write a book, or whatever. Everything but a boring job!!!

I would just sit back, relax, do stuff and never worry about my job.

Indeed, on welfare you just get the basic minimum to make sure you wont die. That will motivate you to get a job and do stuff to make some money.
A ubi won't. It simply doesnt motivate if you get enough money to live decently without a job.

Let it be clear, I would be totally in for getting a ubi. I would not be against it at all.
I would be the first to enjoy my retirement at the age of 43! :wtg:

Yes, in your case, i fully understand it, about i be same a creative person. So boring is some thing i dont realy know. Im also agree, that some dude just hang around, but those do the same also if they have a job, in the difference, that they hang out into the job also on the cost of the boss. So maybe they get petter a ubi, and noting dangerus can happen .... ok that was also more like a joke, but it dont give 12 camels ... haha
 
...that some dude just hang around, but those do the same also if they have a job, in the difference, that they hang out into the job also on the cost of the boss. ..

Damn! You caught me playing entropia in my boss's time :laugh:

Gimme a UBI so I can legally play in my boss's time!!! :wtg:
 
Thoughts during space flight...

While I tend to sympathize with the libertarian side, opinions whether it's a good thing or not are actually irrelvant because the legal basis exists already in form of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Its 30 or so sections apply all together and each single one, failures to implement them in their entirety are unconstitutional in all states that signed the declaration. The UDHR also has the one on slavery which forbids taking the means for social security by force in form of taxes. The problem is that we have fiat money now, but the tax system is still from the times of the gold (or other commodity) standard. The simple solution would be direct access to money creation for covering the most basic means to maintain human existence. In other words, the "human gold standard". It could be implemented in every country, no matter if rich or poor by whatever standard, with very little change to existing structures except those of power. Barter rings e.g. already implement the idea, the Swiss "Wir-Franken" is the only country-wide implementation I'm aware of so far but its acceptance is limited. Would its universal implementation really violate the principles of liberty, even if people get access to funds they don't "deserve" in the classical sense? Would really like to find out where the flaw is here, if there is one.
 
Thoughts during space flight...

While I tend to sympathize with the libertarian side, opinions whether it's a good thing or not are actually irrelvant because the legal basis exists already in form of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Its 30 or so sections apply all together and each single one, failures to implement them in their entirety are unconstitutional in all states that signed the declaration. The UDHR also has the one on slavery which forbids taking the means for social security by force in form of taxes. The problem is that we have fiat money now, but the tax system is still from the times of the gold (or other commodity) standard. The simple solution would be direct access to money creation for covering the most basic means to maintain human existence. In other words, the "human gold standard". It could be implemented in every country, no matter if rich or poor by whatever standard, with very little change to existing structures except those of power. Barter rings e.g. already implement the idea, the Swiss "Wir-Franken" is the only country-wide implementation I'm aware of so far but its acceptance is limited. Would its universal implementation really violate the principles of liberty, even if people get access to funds they don't "deserve" in the classical sense? Would really like to find out where the flaw is here, if there is one.

The flaw is, money would lose it's value.
You can't just conjure money out of thin air, even though the central banks are doing it at the moment, but at some point it will collapse.
You would get huge inflation!
Why would manufacturers still make and sell stuff if they could just make money?

There once was a time we could trade tulips for a house.
But once everybody got to grow their own tulips they were rendered useless.

Once everybody can create money, get money or whatever, it will lose value.
The system would collapse.

Society needs its beads, shells, coins or whatever to function. And they need to be scarce and not easily obtainable.
Hence, helicoptering money out over a society long term would be recipe for disaster long term.

*edit*
It could only work in a fully centralized system. A totalitarian communistic society of some sort. 100% regulated.
Were all would be 100% equal. No individualism possible. No choices for stuff to buy.
But lets be honest, that's far from realistic.

"All people are equal. Some are just a bit more equal than others."
 
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It could only work in a fully centralized system. A totalitarian communistic society of some sort.

"All people are equal. Some are just a bit more equal than others."

Hm, the funy thing is, that the main idea about UBI is created by some capitalism dude, also if it sounds like communistic society. And the idea is much older, as most ppl know.
 
Hm, the funy thing is, that the main idea about UBI is created by some capitalism dude, also if it sounds like communism. And the idea is much older, as most ppl know.

But let's be honest, wouldn't it just be a form of communism?
The idea behind it is the same.
Doesn't matter if you work or not, you will get your bread and roof anyways.

It's been tried, and has always failed.

In capitalism there's no such thing as free stuff.

capitalism: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

Who cares for profit if money is free???

Sure, UBI would only be a basic minimum, but it will increase the standards anyways. And thus increasing prices, which in turn would lead to an increase of the UBI amount to compensate the higher prices, which will lead to even higher prices etc etc.
It's not maintainable.


So, a capitalistic guy who promotes a communistic system?
Rather odd if you'd ask me. :scratch2:
 
A few cities have already tried the UBI. It was a dismal failure, due to one thing: morals and personal integrity, like water, tend (in immoral people) to "find the path of least resistance".

UBI has proven to strip those involved of their pride, integrity, honor, feeling of civic duty and respect. It always has.

UBI isn't new. It's been the cornerstone of all failed Socialist nations for thousands of years. It always ends up the same: you are no longer a "citizen", you become a "subject", or (in worse case scenarios) a servant, to the ruling elite or a dictator, who doles out your "benefits".

You know, things like food, health care, housing, etc.

As humans tend to NOT remember history, they are bound to repeat it. Here's a few examples of (within the past 50 or so years):

Finland

Canada

United States

The first settlers to America tried UBI. After many of them died of starvation (why work when you got "your fair share" anyway), it was changed.

Here's a simple and short description of that time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dAmroKyzGY

Bottom line is this. There ain't no such thing as a "free" anything. If it doesn't cost you in taxes, it'll cost you in your soul.
 
Bottom line is this. There ain't no such thing as a "free" anything. If it doesn't cost you in taxes, it'll cost you in your soul.

Did you read that post for Canada? They scrapped UBI trial in Ontario for political reasons. It was started by one party in the government and then when a new party came in, they got rid of it so they could reduce taxes, government spending, etc. It was basically a way to make campaign promises claiming that it was too expensive, yet they did not back that up with any data.

Heres something interesting:

After Ontario launched its pilot, recipients began detailing how their lives had changed; the funds had afforded them healthier food, warm clothes for winter and even a long-postponed visit to the dentist. Others used the funds to go back to school or invest in their own businesses.

The Hamilton resident Dave Cherkewski, 46, said the monthly payments had eased the stress of daily life, enabling him to better cope with a mental illness that had kept him out of the workforce since 2002.

Now he was gearing up to return to work, hoping to find a role where he could support others with mental health challenges. “With basic income I will be able to clarify my dream and actually make it a reality,” he told the Associated Press.

“Because I can focus all my effort on that and not worry about, ‘Well, I need to pay my $520 rent, I need to pay my $50 cellphone, I need to eat and do other things.’”


Sounds like that guy was totally lazy.....

Not everyone will just be lazy and do nothing if they got UBI. In fact, many will use it to follow their dreams and do professions that they enjoy...fancy that, a job that you look forward to going to every day.
Yes there will be those that just sit around playing video games all day *cough* , but there are also many who will actually have the ability to focus on what makes their life enjoyable....which may very well be their own business, or going back to school, maybe even developing a new video game, the list goes on.

I'm not saying that UBI is an answer or should go ahead, but a modification of it could be something useful if its looked into and trialed properly. Something needs to be worked out for when Automation & AI remove a lot of jobs.
 
At the moment the opposite is actually happening. We have far to few workers available!
Our unemployment rate has never been lower as it is today.

Unless your unemployment rate is zero, you do not have too few workers available.
 
How about we fully fund the well being for the millions of elderly and disabled who have no other options to work , first. Lets also fund mental illness reform for the homeless that need it and figure out a way to help the drug addicted part of the population get back into being a part of society and not outcasts.

Then after the people who actually work can prove they can support the parts of society they would rather forget, maybe just maybe, I would consider Universal basic income for any person who is able bodied. Until then...Remember those you so easily forget who have far far less than you, and have been asking for help far longer than this idea even existed.

The only time a society is in the position to consider this option, is when there are no social groups within that society that would undoubtedly get oppressed even further by this idea.

Pretending to be utopian in a world that is clearly far from it, is destructive and ignorant of reality.
 
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Unless your unemployment rate is zero, you do not have too few workers available.

Impossible, there will always be someone who chooses not to work.
 
As it sits right now, due to removing restrictions on businesses and the booming economy, the only people without jobs in the U.S. are those that do NOT want one. Anyone can get a job.

Problem is, too many have made a generational choice of being on welfare. These are the professional "victims" who will always blame someone or something else for their economic standards.

This might not last long, as economies world wide (the ones based on Communism or Socialism) are being dragged down by their willingness to burden their taxpayers with supporting illegal immigration and frivolous spending.

Like the saying goes, "Socialism works great, until you run out of the other guys money."

To be clear: the words "Socialism" and "Communism" are simple (or maybe complicated) descriptions of philosophical viewpoints that mankind have exhibited for thousands of years. The great nations of Earth that pandered to those two viewpoints, collapsed. The only civilized nations that still exist, are those that have incorporated Capitalism (in one form or another).

But then again, if I were sitting in a scout craft, just above Earth, for any period of time, watching and evaluating the people of Earth, the word "civilized" would probably not be in the report I sent back.
 
also the biggest thing why a ubi fails is that if you give, lets say 1000 euro to everyone as UBI, with no strings attached, then you can see how 2 months later everything has gotten so expensive, that it makes no difference anymore if u get the ubi or not. rent prices will double. normal every day stuff will get more expensive and may double or triple in price and things like going to the cinemas may even cost 3-5 times of what it was before.
thats just normal capitalism. there is a lot more money so things get more expensive. easy as that
 
It's inevitable. Either that or violent revolution. Take your pick.
 
Did you read that post for Canada? They scrapped UBI trial in Ontario for political reasons. It was started by one party in the government and then when a new party came in, they got rid of it so they could reduce taxes, government spending, etc. It was basically a way to make campaign promises claiming that it was too expensive, yet they did not back that up with any data.

Heres something interesting:

After Ontario launched its pilot, recipients began detailing how their lives had changed; the funds had afforded them healthier food, warm clothes for winter and even a long-postponed visit to the dentist. Others used the funds to go back to school or invest in their own businesses.

The Hamilton resident Dave Cherkewski, 46, said the monthly payments had eased the stress of daily life, enabling him to better cope with a mental illness that had kept him out of the workforce since 2002.

Now he was gearing up to return to work, hoping to find a role where he could support others with mental health challenges. “With basic income I will be able to clarify my dream and actually make it a reality,” he told the Associated Press.

“Because I can focus all my effort on that and not worry about, ‘Well, I need to pay my $520 rent, I need to pay my $50 cellphone, I need to eat and do other things.’”


Sounds like that guy was totally lazy.....

Not everyone will just be lazy and do nothing if they got UBI. In fact, many will use it to follow their dreams and do professions that they enjoy...fancy that, a job that you look forward to going to every day.
Yes there will be those that just sit around playing video games all day *cough* , but there are also many who will actually have the ability to focus on what makes their life enjoyable....which may very well be their own business, or going back to school, maybe even developing a new video game, the list goes on.

I'm not saying that UBI is an answer or should go ahead, but a modification of it could be something useful if its looked into and trialed properly. Something needs to be worked out for when Automation & AI remove a lot of jobs.

so... you dont like the job you have but you dont do the job u want. who is hindering you on doing the job you want to do? its only your own fear.
 
it may work on a microscopic level but it CANT work on a macroscopic level. and that is the essence of what every study about it shows.
 
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