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  1. #11
    If you take away work from people you take away their reason to live and all of their status in society! I dont see how a UBI fight that. People dont want free money, they want work and i dont believe an UBI can set out on a large scale without killing the social peace. Its like telling you, hey you're utterly useless and your existence has no meaning but we feed you anyways.

  2. #12
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    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36454060

    Swiss voters have overwhelmingly rejected a proposal to introduce a guaranteed basic income for all.
    Final results from Sunday's referendum showed that nearly 77% opposed the plan, with only 23% backing it.
    The proposal had called for adults to be paid an unconditional monthly income, whether they worked or not.
    The supporters camp had suggested a monthly income of 2,500 Swiss francs (1,755; $2,555) for adults and also SFr625 for each child.
    The amounts reflected the high cost of living in Switzerland. It is not clear how the plan would have affected people on higher salaries.
    The supporters had also argued that since work was increasingly automated, fewer jobs were available for workers.
    Switzerland is the first country to hold such a vote.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiona Simmons View Post
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    If you take away work from people you take away their reason to live and all of their status in society! I dont see how a UBI fight that. People dont want free money, they want work and i dont believe an UBI can set out on a large scale without killing the social peace. Its like telling you, hey you're utterly useless and your existence has no meaning but we feed you anyways.
    who said anything about taking work away from people?
    UBI just gives more freedom to the people to pursue what they enjoy doing. Studying, working, taking care of others, doing nothing.

    Financing a UBI has been discussed where i live(The Netherlands) and with removing all benefits and tax reductions that we have now. It's not as expensive as you might think. For some it would even mean less to spend (people with tax cuts higher than the UBI for example).

  4. #14
    One argument for UBI that wasn't mentioned is the fact that lot of low skill work is getting replaced by automation. If we get to a point where there actually won't be enough jobs for everybody, UBI might become a necessity.

  5. #15
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    A politican and economst in my country brought this to discussion a few years ago.

    The situation here would be that paying an UBI to all germans that equal the income of a person that lives from sozial care, would be cheaper than what the actual social system costs (inlcuding administrative labor costs).

    The gouvernment could save money, but thousands of people who work actually work in the administration would become jobless.

    I think it would be a good system.
    Those who want to have more money still can get a job.
    I think it would have an positive effect for niches that actually have a problem to get workers due to low income in that niche. With an UBI more people may work in that places simply because they dont need to get a better paid job to be able to feed their family as this is already backed up by the UBI.

    As no country has implemented this UBI system we cant talk from experience!
    As long nobody try it it will be a nice and heavily discussed theorie.

    We can only learn if it works if some country implements it, then we get some experience. If its good experience other countries will follow. If its bad, it will die faster than it was born.

    What we need is some politicans with big balls to try it.

  6. #16
    Elite forgo's Avatar
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    I don't think any modern society needs a whole class of people dependent on a check with zero investment involved

    There is a class of people that does kind of fall into this category, the disabled, these checks are earned too, but and you find they are riddled with depression and very little self worth. Its a hard way to live, with nothing to be proud of and no ability to work for that pride. People need to be active.

    If people are to get paid outside of an earned benefit, they should either Work for it in the communities they live, or Invest in the communities they live. Anything else denigrates society into one which ends up with a completely useless and voiceless people susceptible to crime, drugs, corruption and government takeover.

    Wealth is a motivator for progress and change for humanity. Without distinction between those who work for it and those who do not, progress and motivation dies.

    The world has come out of poverty at the fastest rates we have ever recorded, there is not a mad rush to start giving money away, instead we should be rewarding those who are willing and actually put in the effort to make good things happen.

    Automation is a silly argument, Technology grows, and so does the need to support it, and the new technologies we will create. Shipping factories overseas can and has done far far more damage in the last 20 years than automation will do in the next 50 to those jobs....they already left. While a few countries are in a position to actually improve factories with automation, many of the rest of the world is nowhere near that level, and much of the 3rd world is now the manpower for the factories of those countries ready to automate. The third world, who we raised out of poverty with those jobs will be needing to solve a problem of losing them...not the people in countries with automation or considering universal income.

    IMO anyhow.
    Last edited by forgo; 10-03-2019 at 16:39.

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  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by GoNi View Post
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    The situation here would be that paying an UBI to all germans that equal the income of a person that lives from sozial care, would be cheaper than what the actual social system costs (inlcuding administrative labor costs).
    That isn't correct the way you have written it. It would be cheaper to run the system of UBI than the social benefits system as it stands, but the money running through the system would be quite a bit higher. That second part is not 'cheaper' as such, but does not have to be a problem when the government can change its revenue side upwards as well.

    For example, there would be no more tax-free allowance (or you can say the UBI eats the allowance up for everyone). Any work would thus be taxed from the start, increasing government income (revenue) on the assumption that the amount of work stayed the same. This would make up part of paying the 'extra' costs of an UBI, along with other measures such as a Tobin tax on trading shares, possibly a higher VAT (MwSt) rate, environmental taxation etc.

    Of course, things will not stay the same... and automation is quite a threat to how many jobs will be available in the future even if we don't change the system. I agree that work is not just for money; people need to feel valued, useful and engaged. I see an UBI as a necessary part of system change, but by no means all we need to do.

  8. #18
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    More and more our workplaces get changed with AI. Ofc, there will be also new jobs, but it never will give work for everyone. So some day, there will be no way to give ppl a basic incoming. If most ppl are poor, also the rich ones will loose, about who will buy theyr products, if most ppl just are very poor? Also it could cause a civil war, if too many ppl noting have to eat. This means, the industry and politic need to do something (basic incoming) to solve the problem AI is causing on human workplaces.

  9. #19
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCapital View Post
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