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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizz View Post
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    "maybe also the wife." lol!!
    Dang I have to sell my wife first before I get welfare!!
    She's worth at least 12 camels!!!

    Jokes aside, yes, you surely have a point. It's not much different here.
    But instead of throwing out money for an UBI, why not improve the welfare system to better standards?

    Just looking at myself, if I would get a UBI, I would instantly stop working!! And for sure Im not the only one!
    I simply got to many hobbies and to little time.
    To me, time is worth more than money.
    But as it is now, money buys time, but you need time to get money first.
    Ok, and what you want do the whole day, if you get ubi, and this is the case why you give up your job? Watching TV and sleep 24/7 doing hobbies 24/7 ? I'm sure after 6 Months you start to feel bad and bored. But... if you get ubi, about you lost the job, and then you be not stressed about been too poor. Maybe you then start to study things, and learn other stuff, and maybe you be able to get a other job later, or you build a new buiz? On getting welfare, you only get some very small help for surviving and thats it!

  2. #42
    Elite wizz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trance View Post
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    Ok, and what you want do the whole day, if you get ubi, and this is the case why you give up your job? Watching TV and sleep 24/7 doing hobbies 24/7 ? I'm sure after 6 Months you start to feel bad and bored. But... if you get ubi, about you lost the job, and then you be not stressed about been too poor. Maybe you then start to study things, and learn other stuff, and maybe you be able to get a other job later, or you build a new buiz? On getting welfare, you only get some very small help for surviving and thats it!
    No, I would not be bored at all!!
    Creativity knows no boredom!

    You're so far off thinking I would be bored after 6 months.
    Just give me a piece of wood and I would make something out of it if there's nothing else to do.
    Maybe I would write a book, or whatever. Everything but a boring job!!!

    I would just sit back, relax, do stuff and never worry about my job.

    Indeed, on welfare you just get the basic minimum to make sure you wont die. That will motivate you to get a job and do stuff to make some money.
    A ubi won't. It simply doesnt motivate if you get enough money to live decently without a job.

    Let it be clear, I would be totally in for getting a ubi. I would not be against it at all.
    I would be the first to enjoy my retirement at the age of 43!

  3. #43
    Elite trance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizz View Post
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    No, I would not be bored at all!!
    Creativity knows no boredom!

    You're so far off thinking I would be bored after 6 months.
    Just give me a piece of wood and I would make something out of it if there's nothing else to do.
    Maybe I would write a book, or whatever. Everything but a boring job!!!

    I would just sit back, relax, do stuff and never worry about my job.

    Indeed, on welfare you just get the basic minimum to make sure you wont die. That will motivate you to get a job and do stuff to make some money.
    A ubi won't. It simply doesnt motivate if you get enough money to live decently without a job.

    Let it be clear, I would be totally in for getting a ubi. I would not be against it at all.
    I would be the first to enjoy my retirement at the age of 43!
    Yes, in your case, i fully understand it, about i be same a creative person. So boring is some thing i dont realy know. Im also agree, that some dude just hang around, but those do the same also if they have a job, in the difference, that they hang out into the job also on the cost of the boss. So maybe they get petter a ubi, and noting dangerus can happen .... ok that was also more like a joke, but it dont give 12 camels ... haha

  4. #44
    Elite wizz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trance View Post
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    ...that some dude just hang around, but those do the same also if they have a job, in the difference, that they hang out into the job also on the cost of the boss. ..
    Damn! You caught me playing entropia in my boss's time

    Gimme a UBI so I can legally play in my boss's time!!!

  5. #45
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    Thoughts during space flight...

    While I tend to sympathize with the libertarian side, opinions whether it's a good thing or not are actually irrelvant because the legal basis exists already in form of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Its 30 or so sections apply all together and each single one, failures to implement them in their entirety are unconstitutional in all states that signed the declaration. The UDHR also has the one on slavery which forbids taking the means for social security by force in form of taxes. The problem is that we have fiat money now, but the tax system is still from the times of the gold (or other commodity) standard. The simple solution would be direct access to money creation for covering the most basic means to maintain human existence. In other words, the "human gold standard". It could be implemented in every country, no matter if rich or poor by whatever standard, with very little change to existing structures except those of power. Barter rings e.g. already implement the idea, the Swiss "Wir-Franken" is the only country-wide implementation I'm aware of so far but its acceptance is limited. Would its universal implementation really violate the principles of liberty, even if people get access to funds they don't "deserve" in the classical sense? Would really like to find out where the flaw is here, if there is one.
    1. I NEVER post off-topic.
    2. If you disagree, go to 1.

  6. #46
    Elite wizz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by San View Post
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    Thoughts during space flight...

    While I tend to sympathize with the libertarian side, opinions whether it's a good thing or not are actually irrelvant because the legal basis exists already in form of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Its 30 or so sections apply all together and each single one, failures to implement them in their entirety are unconstitutional in all states that signed the declaration. The UDHR also has the one on slavery which forbids taking the means for social security by force in form of taxes. The problem is that we have fiat money now, but the tax system is still from the times of the gold (or other commodity) standard. The simple solution would be direct access to money creation for covering the most basic means to maintain human existence. In other words, the "human gold standard". It could be implemented in every country, no matter if rich or poor by whatever standard, with very little change to existing structures except those of power. Barter rings e.g. already implement the idea, the Swiss "Wir-Franken" is the only country-wide implementation I'm aware of so far but its acceptance is limited. Would its universal implementation really violate the principles of liberty, even if people get access to funds they don't "deserve" in the classical sense? Would really like to find out where the flaw is here, if there is one.
    The flaw is, money would lose it's value.
    You can't just conjure money out of thin air, even though the central banks are doing it at the moment, but at some point it will collapse.
    You would get huge inflation!
    Why would manufacturers still make and sell stuff if they could just make money?

    There once was a time we could trade tulips for a house.
    But once everybody got to grow their own tulips they were rendered useless.

    Once everybody can create money, get money or whatever, it will lose value.
    The system would collapse.

    Society needs its beads, shells, coins or whatever to function. And they need to be scarce and not easily obtainable.
    Hence, helicoptering money out over a society long term would be recipe for disaster long term.

    *edit*
    It could only work in a fully centralized system. A totalitarian communistic society of some sort. 100% regulated.
    Were all would be 100% equal. No individualism possible. No choices for stuff to buy.
    But lets be honest, that's far from realistic.

    "All people are equal. Some are just a bit more equal than others."

  7. #47
    Elite trance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizz View Post
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    It could only work in a fully centralized system. A totalitarian communistic society of some sort.

    "All people are equal. Some are just a bit more equal than others."
    Hm, the funy thing is, that the main idea about UBI is created by some capitalism dude, also if it sounds like communistic society. And the idea is much older, as most ppl know.

  8. #48
    Elite wizz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trance View Post
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    Hm, the funy thing is, that the main idea about UBI is created by some capitalism dude, also if it sounds like communism. And the idea is much older, as most ppl know.
    But let's be honest, wouldn't it just be a form of communism?
    The idea behind it is the same.
    Doesn't matter if you work or not, you will get your bread and roof anyways.

    It's been tried, and has always failed.

    In capitalism there's no such thing as free stuff.

    capitalism: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

    Who cares for profit if money is free???

    Sure, UBI would only be a basic minimum, but it will increase the standards anyways. And thus increasing prices, which in turn would lead to an increase of the UBI amount to compensate the higher prices, which will lead to even higher prices etc etc.
    It's not maintainable.


    So, a capitalistic guy who promotes a communistic system?
    Rather odd if you'd ask me.

  9. #49
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    A few cities have already tried the UBI. It was a dismal failure, due to one thing: morals and personal integrity, like water, tend (in immoral people) to "find the path of least resistance".

    UBI has proven to strip those involved of their pride, integrity, honor, feeling of civic duty and respect. It always has.

    UBI isn't new. It's been the cornerstone of all failed Socialist nations for thousands of years. It always ends up the same: you are no longer a "citizen", you become a "subject", or (in worse case scenarios) a servant, to the ruling elite or a dictator, who doles out your "benefits".

    You know, things like food, health care, housing, etc.

    As humans tend to NOT remember history, they are bound to repeat it. Here's a few examples of (within the past 50 or so years):

    Finland

    Canada

    United States

    The first settlers to America tried UBI. After many of them died of starvation (why work when you got "your fair share" anyway), it was changed.

    Here's a simple and short description of that time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dAmroKyzGY

    Bottom line is this. There ain't no such thing as a "free" anything. If it doesn't cost you in taxes, it'll cost you in your soul.

  10. #50
    Elite trance's Avatar
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