Defense Skills; OR, everything you ever wanted to know about Evade but were too lazy to search for

Commodore said:

What do u mean by hit frequencey?
Unless mobs also miss their target regulary without causing u to gain evade, the mobs I'm hitting (mostly melee) are certainly not hitting on a regular time interval such as ~3s.

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You don't always get defense-related gains when a mob misses, just like you don't always get offense-related gains every time you shoot. As my tests show, a small tantillion misses more than half of the time with decent skills and caperons miss about 20% of the time.

All mobs attack at the same rate each time you meet them, though. Whether that rate varies between types of mobs (besides aurli and kreltin) i don't know: so far it seems to be one attack every 3.25 s for all other mobs. This is, of course, easier to notice on mobs that don't miss much and mobs that have an easily identified animation associated with their attack (the caperon swings its tentacle).

Doer said:

This is, of course, easier to notice on mobs that don't miss much and mobs that have an easily identified animation associated with their attack (the caperon swings its tentacle).

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Most melee attacks in EU use around 3 different animations, either from mobs or avatars.

If viewing from 3rd person camera, even snables, daikibas and exas show distinct attack animations. Most of the times they exhibit sound cues too.

Keep up the great work guys!

nice research Doer

i have to +rep it

Intuition

When does Intuition unlock?

My guess would be lvl 80 Evader

No other skills unlocks over lvl 80 (Killstrike is lvl 80 damage for example and is the uberskill for hunting)

Can anyone confirm this? (even if its not common these days to trigger this uberskill)

Stormer said:

When does Intuition unlock?

My guess would be lvl 80 Evader

No other skills unlocks over lvl 80 (Killstrike is lvl 80 damage for example and is the uberskill for hunting)

Can anyone confirm this? (even if its not common these days to trigger this uberskill)

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Thanks for bringing that up again Stormer. It seems you are most likely correct, and i have updated the first post to reflect that.

Read this on Pe-wiki a few weeks back and just ran into it again over here.
Thanks for all of the work. Now if people wouldn't F with you when your trying to collect data

I'm alittle to noob ( ~1.6 evader pro standing) to try to reproduce any of these tests yet, but was wondering if you had time to post in more detal how you collect your data.
So maybe it could be tryied by others, diffrent pro levels, with more Mobs ext.. in the future.

I understand the sweat/fruit method, but was more wondering...
How long did you take hits for.
How many times did you reproduce this.
What was your method to keep the Mob attacking you constantly.
I had more but can't think right now its getting late...

Trig P said:

Read this on Pe-wiki a few weeks back and just ran into it again over here.
Thanks for all of the work. Now if people wouldn't F with you when your trying to collect data

I'm alittle to noob ( ~1.6 evader pro standing) to try to reproduce any of these tests yet, but was wondering if you had time to post in more detal how you collect your data.
So maybe it could be tryied by others, diffrent pro levels, with more Mobs ext.. in the future.

I understand the sweat/fruit method, but was more wondering...
How long did you take hits for.
How many times did you reproduce this.
What was your method to keep the Mob attacking you constantly.
I had more but can't think right now its getting late...

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Thanks, Trig. If you want to collect some trials it's always useful. It is more so if i can get different evader levels to do so near the same time, of course (in case the values are tweaked now and then).

There is not a high degree of confidence in the caperon values -- it was hard enough to get volunteers with patience that i had to use whatever i could get -- and then i got disgusted with the whole thing before i could complete it. The main problem is that they miss so little that a little "dynamic" variation or a single miscount seriously affect the results. The two tantillion cases i believe i repeated three times (nevermind i just read the earlier posts and i did it 5+ and described how i did it quite thoroughly, i think) with each of the two avatars and when i saw no large variations i left it at that. However, i saw later when counting hits and misses on big mobs while fapping for hire that there are large fluctuations in the results over a relatively long period, which mean i'm skeptical of any data not confirmed by a few different sources with good methodology.

I thought i gave a description of how i did the tantillion tests earlier. For the caperons i simply counted hits and misses (usually with the help of a little program made for counting hits and misses while hunting). I also double-checked the results with FAP decay when possible. The main problem with caperons and other avatars helping me out is that the caperons eventually get bored and start attacking me (the fapper). It worked pretty well to have the other player keep shooting the cap with a mann mph. Of course, that is making the assumption that a mob doesn't miss more when it is being attacked. I have no reason to believe otherwise from my results, but haven't checked it specifically.

Here's a plot with the chomper data on it, too. I only got enough data to do error bars with the one point -- the other two are simple one-run tests.

Evade for the rest of us

In light of the recent hyper-inflation on uber armor I began rethinking my offense (dmg/sec) approach to hunting. I came across much of the Wiki data presented (and exquisitely embellished on) in this thread regarding the evader professional standing.

I don't pretend to completely understand the data in these charts but the conclusion I came to is that at around Evader 27.5 professional standing you optimize your ability to avoid hits from a mob. I chipped evade and avoidance up to evader 30 professional standing for a fraction of the cost of an armor upgrade.

I have only tested my newfound skills on Aurli and Kreltin (why are these mobs explicitly excluded in your comments?) so far and certainly not with the exactness required by Doer's study. But the results are very good.

Selling Evade 15000%

great work when i looked at the first figure I ws like wait, theres gotts be a curve, linear regression, diminishing returns or sumthing. I'm in calculus atm so it hit me almost immediately, then i scrolled down lol. Great composition u got here, dus ny1 kno if u get better skill increases in evade unarmored? or is it same armored or unarmored.

Doer said:

How they work

Professional standings in EU range from 0 to 100, they determine when unlocked (hidden) skills are obtained, and they are the numbers EU uses to determine your success at the profession. To use an example most players are familiar with, the hit ability (HA) of a weapon (from 0 to 10) is how likely you are to hit a mob with that weapon. It is also equal to the professional standing in the (Hit) for that weapon type, divided by 10 (0 to 100 for pro. standings, remember?). To continue with the hit ability example, an avatar with 0 HA doesn't miss every single shot and with 10 HA it won't hit every time. The actual percentage ranges from about 80% to 92%. It is reasonable to assume that evading will be similar: even a level 0 Evader will successfully evade some attacks, and a level 100 Evader will still take some hits. Just how much difference a high professional standing in Evader makes is a bit hard to measure, but i did some tests to get an idea.


.

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This is a common misconception (see bold)- this is not necessarily true.

Still can't give u any rep, dang it. Ur doin good work, wish I had the patience. Hearty thanks from me.

maxwellhawk said:

This is a common misconception (see bold)- this is not necessarily true.

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Would you care to elaborate? Besides the obvious exception of SIB weapons i've never heard of a case where HA does not equal hit pro standing/10.

Thanks for your comments people. Please remember that the results should not be taken as "gospel": they are not at all definitive. It would be good to have more tests to compare with them so we can be more sure about what they mean. I feel pretty good about the tantillion data, but the uber mob data is far too little to draw any conclusions.

Mal said:

dus ny1 kno if u get better skill increases in evade unarmored? or is it same armored or unarmored.

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I believe it's the same, but i haven't done any quantitative tests.

Can you pretty pretty please find what mob attributes define a mob's skillfullness in kicking our asses?

Also, as to remove any error fromt he calculation, you could do 3 trials and record the data, then accept the median sample of the three.

Doer said:

Would you care to elaborate? Besides the obvious exception of SIB weapons i've never heard of a case where HA does not equal hit pro standing/10.

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You have now because mine isn't

maxwellhawk said:

You have now because mine isn't

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Forgive me for being rather skeptical about that. If it's true it's surely a bug, or you have over level 100 pro standing. What is the HA and corresponding (Hit) pro standing for you? Is it true of all types of weapons or just one?

Doer said:

Forgive me for being rather skeptical about that. If it's true it's surely a bug, or you have over level 100 pro standing. What is the HA and corresponding (Hit) pro standing for you? Is it true of all types of weapons or just one?

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In my case my HA is 1 higher then my prostanding for LB.

p.s. and I am NOT a chipper

HA is Professional Standing (Hit) divided by 10.

The reason your HA might be higher than your Pro Standing level is that HA rounds to 1 decimal place when displayed in weapon info.

Example: If you are Level 49.6 Laser Sniper (Hit), your HA will display as 5.0, not 4.9.

If you chip alot to boost the damage, your HA will get to the next level long before you get to the next pro standing. I have 5.4 HA and 53 Ranged hit. I am closed to reach 54, and just after I get 54 pro standing I expect to get 5.5 HA. It may be the way it is rounded dor not... I don't know... I can post screens at some point..

BlackHawk said:

If you chip alot to boost the damage, your HA will get to the next level long before you get to the next pro standing. I have 5.4 HA and 53 Ranged hit. I am closed to reach 54, and just after I get 54 pro standing I expect to get 5.5 HA. It may be the way it is rounded dor not... I don't know... I can post screens at some point..

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Yes, when you have 53.5 or more (hit) it will show up as 5.4 HA because it is rounded. So half of the time your level reads one number, your HA will be one decimal higher.

If anybody has anything really interesting and different regarding HA and (hit) pro standing, please start a new thread. I stand by my statements that were disputed here and will change them in the extremely unlikely event someone demonstrates to the contrary.

Getting back on topic: any further data for this will need to come from volunteers as i have already tested the mobs in question myself. As i mentioned before, i will FAP for the volunteer if necessary, or they are welcome to keep themselves alive as they see fit. It's easiest to count hits and misses if you have a timer set to 3.25s intervals so you know for sure each time the mob attacks -- it's not always obvious with the chomper because the animation is faster than the actual attack. Just count the number of hits and misses and that's all that's needed...

At what distance to the mob can one gain evade?

When the mob is 50m away? 10m away?

Does evade increase faster the close to the mob? I 'feel' like I gain evade faster when I use a shortblade (3m range) than a longblade (4m range.)

thoreau said:

At what distance to the mob can one gain evade?

When the mob is 50m away? 10m away?

Does evade increase faster the close to the mob? I 'feel' like I gain evade faster when I use a shortblade (3m range) than a longblade (4m range.)

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Defensive skills are gained by evading, so they only come when a mob is within attack range, whatever that might be for the mob. I don't expect that distance matters once within range.

I've just read this article for the first time. Good work.

However, as someone mentioned earlier, Combat Sense does contribute to the Evader and Dodger professional standings.

When I inserted 5k Combat Sense (from nigh on 0) I think I gained about 3 ranks (or 300 levels) of Evader ranking. Unfortunately the before and after screenshot I had I cannot seem to locate.

If I can find it I will share.

And here it is folks.

AkiranBlade said:

I've just read this article for the first time. Good work.

However, as someone mentioned earlier, Combat Sense does contribute to the Evader and Dodger professional standings.

When I inserted 5k Combat Sense (from nigh on 0) I think I gained about 3 ranks (or 300 levels) of Evader ranking. Unfortunately the before and after screenshot I had I cannot seem to locate.

If I can find it I will share.

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Look here for the known evader breakdown so far.

wizzszz said:

Look here for the known evader breakdown so far.

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The point of my post is that Doer's opening post mentions nothing of Combat Sense in the listing of skills, nor is it mentioned in along with the unlocks like Quickness and Intuition.

Combat Sense, I believe, is the reason why some people have unlocked Avoidance very early (sub 3.5k Evade.)

Do Strength,bravado and something like that affect to defense or not??
And do they make the decay on armor less than??

AkiranBlade said:

The point of my post is that Doer's opening post mentions nothing of Combat Sense in the listing of skills, nor is it mentioned in along with the unlocks like Quickness and Intuition.

Combat Sense, I believe, is the reason why some people have unlocked Avoidance very early (sub 3.5k Evade.)

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uhum,

The other 19 percent comes from the unlocked skills associated with defense like Quickness and hunting skills like Combat Sense.

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Witte said:

uhum,

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It was late.. I missed that

bump

A bump for those of us who haven't seen this excellent thread yet!

Nice graphs and data.

Questions i have are (maybe someone did experiments) whether anything else besides evade and mob type influences mob hit rate. In specific:

* do you get hit less if you move a little bit (e.g. walk backwards) as mob hits you? (without running faster than mob)

* do you get hit less if you damage mob -- it might be a coincidence but to me it always felt like once i start fapping (instead of hitting mob) i get hit more often.

* what happens if 2 of same mobs hit you at the same time -- do you get hit 2x more on average?

* Does successful mob hit rate depend on how heavy you are?