Defense Skills; OR, everything you ever wanted to know about Evade but were too lazy to search for

25 is not a big deal, 50-70 it is

every ped counts :) and the progession on less hits is hardly noticable unless you are dam hardcore.

Problem I always end up with is the return vs invested peds. You got to keep playing 24/7 to justify owning ubertoys and uberskills.

Else the profit you earn ingame could just be made easier on a bank account ticking interest.
 
It all depends on what you hunt. Some mobs are almost "maxed" at level 25 Evader/Dodger, while others may not even miss yet. If you are always hunting a mob that requires heavy armor and hits every time at level 25, it is probably cost effective to acquire more defense skills. It's different for every play strategy and budget.
 
Any thoughts on whether it makes sense to push to really high levels like 70 and higher on evade or is level 60 reasonable enough?
 
well, i m just a noob with 33 evade levels. At this level i can sleep unarmored in front an ambulimax, at the same level aurly still continue to hit my butt a lot so i need a nice armor and fap for high maturity. So the point is: what do you hunt normally?
DC
 
I wonder if there is a graph of what level evade you need for diff mobs to start missing, trying to see if there is any serious benefit tou much higher evade levels or of the curve levels out
 
Sorry for the necromancy, but in response to this from OP:
Quickness is unlocked at level 55 Evader.

Intuition is most likely unlocked at level 80 Evader.
which i can't edit anymore to fix or update, i received a PM question about whether there is reason to believe that Dodger can't unlock Intuition or Quickness. The answer to that is "No, there's no reason to believe that." Without exception, if a skill contributes to a Profession, it can be unlocked by performing the action that requires that Profession for success -- when the Profession has reached the level required for the unlock. Therefore, if Quickness and Intuition contribute to Dodger (and they do), they can trigger the unlock.
 
which i can't edit anymore to fix or update,

Yeah, posts older than 2 years are locked from editing.

Considering how much we know now, you may want to consider making a version 2.0 thread.
 
Sorry for the necromancy, but in response to this from OP:

which i can't edit anymore to fix or update, i received a PM question about whether there is reason to believe that Dodger can't unlock Intuition or Quickness. The answer to that is "No, there's no reason to believe that." Without exception, if a skill contributes to a Profession, it can be unlocked by performing the action that requires that Profession for success -- when the Profession has reached the level required for the unlock. Therefore, if Quickness and Intuition contribute to Dodger (and they do), they can trigger the unlock.
While at it, find out how much Quickness and Intuition contribute to the Captain profession, i'd imagine they do (or one of them atleast, Quickness most probably (atleast)), since what i can see on wiki we're missing a wee-bit of info.
 
While you're at it try and figure out the curve per mob? :)
I mean it's nice to have a goal for the next few decades :eyecrazy:
 
While at it, find out how much Quickness and Intuition contribute to the Captain profession, i'd imagine they do (or one of them atleast, Quickness most probably (atleast)), since what i can see on wiki we're missing a wee-bit of info.

You don't gain quickness during piloting, that should answer your question :)
 
You don't gain quickness during piloting, that should answer your question :)
You really really, really really really sure about this?
Then it just leaves... Intuition or some other skill to fill in the blanks.
I mean, if it had a 1% affect, it might take some time to see a gain (if you already have high skills on that).
 
You really really, really really really sure about this?
Then it just leaves... Intuition or some other skill to fill in the blanks.
I mean, if it had a 1% affect, it might take some time to see a gain (if you already have high skills on that).

I am really really really really 100% sure of this.
Been piloting last 3 days (went from 1031 to 1.4k), didn't see 1 quickness gain
 
I am really really really really 100% sure of this.
Been piloting last 3 days (went from 1031 to 1.4k), didn't see 1 quickness gain
Oki!
Then i'm really really really surprised if the missing skill is Intuition...
Since all the basic skills up to Avoidance has been covered already.
 
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Ten years later and we finally have in-game data that make it much easier to improve and update the effect of Evader/Dodger/Jammer on mob hit rate.

I refer to this:
We have made several improvements to address performance issues and are continuing to make the experience smoother.

Changes

  • Change the name for “Damage messages” to “Combat messages” in system channel where all info about combat will be shown
  • Players will now get feedback when evading, dodging, jamming or attacks miss their avatar. Likewise these messages will be displayed when the target does so as well. These messages will be printed in the “Combat messages” system channel.
  • Clarification for terminology:
    • Miss is when there isn’t enough skill to hit the target
    • Evade is when the target avoids damage from a melee attack
    • Dodge is when the target avoids damage from a ranged attack
    • Jamming is when the target avoids damage from a mindforce attack
    • Deflect is when the target absorbs all damage due to armor

Originally Posted Here

Before, you had to count out the 3.25 (iirc) seconds between mob attacks and observe whether they hit or not. Alternatively, stand with a single mob wearing armor and measure the time and then calculate the number of hits based on armor decay. That was how i got the data for this
plot from the first post.
Evadervs.mobs.gif


Now, all mob attacks are recorded in the log as hits or misses, so you only have to make sure you're on a single maturity type to get clean data.

I'm not sure if i'll revisit this myself but i'm inviting the community to do so.

PS However, if we can get some posts here of count of hits and misses, evader/dodger/jammer level, and mob type and maturity, i will combine them into a new plot. ;)
 
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One of the fort defense missions added in the past year (Cleanup at Fort Lahar) requires that you kill 200 Kerberos, and the spawn you have to hunt has only Provider maturity. I was working on that mission when the VU hit and collected the mob hit data for the last half of it from the log. I have a simple script that can parse out the mob performance from the chat.log file and will run it on your log if you can move or delete the file before you start hunting them, and avoid contact with other mobs until you are done.

My results:
Evader level 42.4
524 attacks: 174 hits (33.2%), 98 evades (18.7%), 252 misses (48.1%) for Kerberos Provider

1718 attacks: 526 hits (30.6%), 306 evades (17.8%), 886 misses (51.6%) for caudatergus puny
1789 attacks: 508 hits (28.4%), 364 evades (20.3%), 917 misses (51.3%) for caudatergus puny 1171 attacks: 338 hits (28.9%), 231 evades (19.7%), 602 misses (51.4%) for caudatergus puny
Average: 29±1% hits, 19±1% evades, 51±2% misses for puny


Evader level ~0.5
554 attacks: 251 hits (45.3%), 15 evades (2.7%), 288 misses (52.0%) for caudatergus puny

I imagine that knowing that mobs can both miss and be evaded, and that we can see both, should simplify this process.
 
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One of the fort defense missions added in the past year (Cleanup at Fort Lahar) requires that you kill 200 Kerberos, and the spawn you have to hunt has only Provider maturity. I was working on that mission when the VU hit and collected the mob hit data for the last half of it from the log. I have a simple script that can parse out the mob performance from the chat.log file and will run it on your log if you can move or delete the file before you start hunting them, and avoid contact with other mobs until you are done.

My results:
Evader level 42.3990
524 attacks by Kerberos Provider: 174 hits, 252 misses, 98 evaded

I imagine that knowing that mobs can both miss and be evaded, and that we can see both, should simplify this process.

So...

Misses: 252/524 = 48.09
Evades: 98/524 = 18.70

That, I think, means that:

- everyone, no matter what their Evader, will be missed approx. 48.1% of the time by Kerberos Provider;
- at your Evader prof level you can expect to evade approx. an additional 18.7% of attacks, i.e. a total of 66.8% attacks will not land a hit, at that level.

Sound right?

Obviously the limited data set means we can only approximate from this, but if I understand the way it works correctly then the first figure (counting misses only) will be the same for everyone, so with more data we should be able to nail that down quite quickly.
 
So...

Misses: 252/524 = 48.09
Evades: 98/524 = 18.70

That, I think, means that:

- everyone, no matter what their Evader, will be missed approx. 48.1% of the time by Kerberos Provider;
- at your Evader prof level you can expect to evade approx. an additional 18.7% of attacks, i.e. a total of 66.8% attacks will not land a hit, at that level.

Sound right?

Obviously the limited data set means we can only approximate from this, but if I understand the way it works correctly then the first figure (counting misses only) will be the same for everyone, so with more data we should be able to nail that down quite quickly.

It could also be the other way around technically, I agree would be great to do some testing and with enough contributions it could be a very helpful resource to know the approximate evade level needed to take on various mobs without being hit excessively.
 
It could also be the other way around technically, I agree would be great to do some testing and with enough contributions it could be a very helpful resource to know the approximate evade level needed to take on various mobs without being hit excessively.

True. I'm assuming that the bit that says "you evaded" is the bit that's to do with your Evader level, but we are talking about MA here, so there's no reason to think that what they've done might be in any way logical ;-)
 
Each mob will contribute a (natural) hitrate and your own personal contributions.

First step is to find out if evader contributes a static hitrate reduction, or dynamic based on mob level (fairly easy, pick a low level mob and a high level mob, compare evade %). I would guess static reduction.

Second step is to find out if a mob's natural hitrate is defined directly by level, or instead is a hidden attribute (compare two different mobs with identical levels). I would guess at hidden attribute...

Now, who wants to spend the weekend data mining ;)

True. I'm assuming that the bit that says "you evaded" is the bit that's to do with your Evader level, but we are talking about MA here, so there's no reason to think that what they've done might be in any way logical ;-)

I have to agree, their text was fairly clear.
 
Each mob will contribute a (natural) hitrate and your own personal contributions.

First step is to find out if evader contributes a static hitrate reduction, or dynamic based on mob level (fairly easy, pick a low level mob and a high level mob, compare evade %). I would guess static reduction.

Second step is to find out if a mob's natural hitrate is defined directly by level, or instead is a hidden attribute (compare two different mobs with identical levels). I would guess at hidden attribute...

Now, who wants to spend the weekend data mining ;)

True. I'm assuming that the bit that says "you evaded" is the bit that's to do with your Evader level, but we are talking about MA here, so there's no reason to think that what they've done might be in any way logical ;-)

I have to agree, their text was fairly clear.

I thought the text was fairly clear too until I thought about it a bit and realized that there was a possibility that "Miss" is the one where skills are influencing, as opposed to "Evade" which would seem more logical.

My reasoning for this being a possibility is the fact that when you are fighting a mob, Evade/Dodge are the messages you get at a flat 10% chance, whereas Miss is the message you get when your skill level is not high enough for the tool you are using.

It could be the same way with mobs, where evading/dodging a mob occurs at a flat chance based on the mob, and having a mob "Miss" you is related to a skill check of the mob in question's "accuracy vs evader/dodger" threshhold.

Still seems more obvious for Evade/Dodge to be the attacks avoided that correspond to your Evader/Dodger profession, but I don't think the alternative is out of question at all.
 
I thought the text was fairly clear too until I thought about it a bit and realized that there was a possibility that "Miss" is the one where skills are influencing, as opposed to "Evade" which would seem more logical.

My reasoning for this being a possibility is the fact that when you are fighting a mob, Evade/Dodge are the messages you get at a flat 10% chance, whereas Miss is the message you get when your skill level is not high enough for the tool you are using.

It could be the same way with mobs, where evading/dodging a mob occurs at a flat chance based on the mob, and having a mob "Miss" you is related to a skill check of the mob in question's "accuracy vs evader/dodger" threshhold.

Still seems more obvious for Evade/Dodge to be the attacks avoided that correspond to your Evader/Dodger profession, but I don't think the alternative is out of question at all.

Yes, I can see why you think that, but what you're doing is adding a skill check. For an avatar, you have 1 skill check (HA X/10).

The way you're looking at it for a mob, it has two skill checks (Mob's level, target's level).

Think of it this way; MA could have coded (and I guess have the option) varying natural hitrates for certain mobs. I.e. their natural evade being 15, 20, 25% instead of 10%. This is what we have as avatars - natural evades which we can manipulate (by skilling evade).

In fact, I'd really like to see mobs which have more variety - increased "evaded" messages - and it wouldn't be a problem in the current loot system as the extra shots are paid back 1:1.
 
So...

Misses: 252/524 = 48.09
Evades: 98/524 = 18.70

That, I think, means that:

- everyone, no matter what their Evader, will be missed approx. 48.1% of the time by Kerberos Provider;
- at your Evader prof level you can expect to evade approx. an additional 18.7% of attacks, i.e. a total of 66.8% attacks will not land a hit, at that level.

Sound right?

Obviously the limited data set means we can only approximate from this, but if I understand the way it works correctly then the first figure (counting misses only) will be the same for everyone, so with more data we should be able to nail that down quite quickly.

Yeah it seems reasonable. I've also added some puny data i gathered afk today to that post.
My results:
Evader level 42.4
524 attacks: 174 hits (33.2%), 98 evades (18.7%), 252 misses (48.1%) for Kerberos Provider:
1718 attacks: 526 hits (30.6%), 306 evades (17.8%), 886 misses (51.6%) for caudatergus puny
It's kind of surprising how close the results are. Within the uncertainty of the numbers, it appears that i evaded the same amount; it was just the punys' innate hit rate that was slightly lower... or maybe both mobs behave exactly the same. I'll get another set of puny data to see how much variation there is.

I have a system now where i can say in chat what i'm hunting and then parse out the data for each mob type, so i'll be slowly gathering data in cases where i can take one mob at a time or have a single maturity spawn.
 
It's kind of surprising how close the results are. Within the uncertainty of the numbers, it appears that i evaded the same amount; it was just the punys' innate hit rate that was slightly lower...

But this makes perfect sense to me, rather than being surprising.

The way I assumed it worked was:

Mob has a hitrate (based on a number added by MA, which is one of the contributing factors to overall mob level (along with hp, damage, regen, etc)).

Avatar has an evader level.

So you just have the two contributions added together; e.g.:

Mob A hitrate = 0.5, Evader level 50 = 0.2, Overall 0.7

So the mob only hits 3/10 times on the avatar.

If the avatar were to grow to level 100 (and the contributions were linear) then he/she would contribute 0.4, overall 0.9. So the mob only hits 1/10 times on the avatar.

Move to mob B, much higher hitrate (e.g. Aurli instead of Atrox), = 0.1, even at level 100 evader, the hitrate would be 0.1+0.4 = 0.5, 5/10 times successful mob hit.

Now I'm sure the avatar evader curves aren't linear (looking at your previous data, considering the mob hitrate must be static) but it should be fairly easy to see what the maximum evader contribution is to mob hitrate.
 
Well it seemed a bit surprising to me that a level 1 and a level 4 mob would be the same, but it's true that it's not really much of a level difference in the absolute sense, although it is in the relative sense. As it turns out though, i think they are different. I've got three collections of over 1k attacks each for punies and the stdev is small (1-1.5 %), so going forward i think 1k data points should be more than enough for a mob, at least to get a range within a few percent. The kerb data is "only" 524 attacks, but look at what we see:

524 attacks: 174 hits (33.2%), 98 evades (18.7%), 252 misses (48.1%) for Kerberos Provider

1718 attacks: 526 hits (30.6%), 306 evades (17.8%), 886 misses (51.6%) for caudatergus puny
1789 attacks: 508 hits (28.4%), 364 evades (20.3%), 917 misses (51.3%) for caudatergus puny
1171 attacks: 338 hits (28.9%), 231 evades (19.7%), 602 misses (51.4%) for caudatergus puny
Average: 29±1% hits, 19±1% evades, 51±2% misses for puny

The evades are essentially identical (that's the skill check belonging to the avatar's Evader level), while the mob's "hit ability" is different, with the kerbs hitting about 3% more of the time (or alternatively missing 3% less). Now i need stats for an avatar with much lower and much higher evader on one of these two mobs.

All you have to do is move or delete your chat.log file in the Entropia Universe folder under My Documents before you start the hunt, only hunt that one mob maturity, and then send me a copy of it.
 
Well it seemed a bit surprising to me that a level 1 and a level 4 mob would be the same, but it's true that it's not really much of a level difference in the absolute sense, although it is in the relative sense. As it turns out though, i think they are different. I've got three collections of over 1k attacks each for punies and the stdev is small (1-1.5 %), so going forward i think 1k data points should be more than enough for a mob, at least to get a range within a few percent. The kerb data is "only" 524 attacks, but look at what we see:

524 attacks: 174 hits (33.2%), 98 evades (18.7%), 252 misses (48.1%) for Kerberos Provider

1718 attacks: 526 hits (30.6%), 306 evades (17.8%), 886 misses (51.6%) for caudatergus puny
1789 attacks: 508 hits (28.4%), 364 evades (20.3%), 917 misses (51.3%) for caudatergus puny
1171 attacks: 338 hits (28.9%), 231 evades (19.7%), 602 misses (51.4%) for caudatergus puny
Average: 29±1% hits, 19±1% evades, 51±2% misses for puny

The evades are essentially identical (that's the skill check belonging to the avatar's Evader level), while the mob's "hit ability" is different, with the kerbs hitting about 3% more of the time (or alternatively missing 3% less). Now i need stats for an avatar with much lower and much higher evader on one of these two mobs.

All you have to do is move or delete your chat.log file in the Entropia Universe folder under My Documents before you start the hunt, only hunt that one mob maturity, and then send me a copy of it.

I'll try it with Hween mayhem mobs... might be skewed tho cos of the boss mobs.

But yeah, I would expect a noticeable but small difference between kerb and puny. Try doing Aurli and I'm sure you'll see significant data differences between misses but same evades.
 
Managed to remember the password for my gf's old avatar and found that it takes a lot longer to collect even puny data with a noob avatar. :eyecrazy:

Evader level ~0.5
554 attacks: 251 hits (45.3%), 15 evades (2.7%), 288 misses (52.0%) for caudatergus puny

So, as expected, it appears the mob "Misses" the same amount regardless of Evader level, but its hit rate is decreased by increasing Evader level. In this case, going from Evader 0.5 to 42 increased evasion of punies from ~2% to 19%. Without data from avatars with other levels of Evader, we won't be able to see what the shape of that trend looks like.

And we'll need data for other mobs to see if it's the same. At least we've established some things.
 
Interesting stuff now we should be able to test the effects of evade buffs. What will 12% evade ring buff do in these test?
 
Interesting stuff now we should be able to test the effects of evade buffs. What will 12% evade ring buff do in these test?

If I recall correctly, in previous tests it was shown to increase your existing evade chance by 12%, rather than applying a flat 12% increase in evade chance.

i.e if you had a 0% chance of evading you will still have a 0% chance of evading, but if you had a 1% chance of evading you will have a 1.12% chance of evading.
 
Interesting stuff now we should be able to test the effects of evade buffs. What will 12% evade ring buff do in these test?

I'll test it if someone will loan me one but Darkaruki's comment sounds like the way MA usually does these things.

Anyone that wants to help out with tests can do so by sending me their chat.log file found in My Documents/Entropia Universe (you may have to enable general logging in options before this will be created) after doing the following:
  1. rename or delete the file so you start out with one that's not too huge
  2. when you're going to start hunting a single maturity spawn of a mob, or if you want to try to toggle between logs when you switch maturities in a spawn, you say "log MOB MATURITY" in local chat, replacing MOB and MATURITY with the right information
  3. Note your evader level from your professions tab and say "evader: XXXX" in local chat to make a note of it
  4. You can change to logging a different mob by using the "log XX XX" in local chat
  5. before anything else attacks you, or when you are done with the hunt, say "stop" in local chat

Then you can contact me to email it to me.
 
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