Clarification about Entropia banking operations

so basically.. if i want to report a scammer and get something done about it i should just call them a loaner?



X Ava X offered to loan me 2 PED!~!!!! Ban her!!

MA does not support sharing of items

aridash said:

so will this apply to all loans between parties where a security is given, and rigorously enforced? i see the landlord hanger owners and pilots having some trouble here.

and how will it be enforced? just how do you tell betweeen a loan and a trade? what if its advertised as a item borrowing service? Gamers Knab can offer to use your items while you sleep for a small fee, offering some security to you while it is in their care

ffs, why not do something about the actual scammers instead? no, of course not becuase its nothing more than state sponsored protectionism. Just like real economies i suppose...

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In a support case I opened before selling my hangar, I asked MA how they intended sharing of items. The reponse "We do NOT support the sharing of items" one step from not supporting to making it illegal.


Art

711 said:

Ummm, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Anshe hold a banking license, thus how would that contradict this announcement about banking operations?

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Surely its an unofficial trade of an official business that doesnt have the official backup to support such a trade in an official manner. ie, you are in fact buying something that actually doesnt officially (MA legally) exist...shares in a bank dont have an icon or cant be placed in auction or a trade window....as yet

Actually, thinking about it, bank shares cant exist can they....therefore it must be a proven scam...selling something that doesnt exist

Just messing, like I said earlier I feel if you want to invest then invest in the non official share...I guess the same goes for - if you want a loan from an unofficial loan service...the choice is yours.

Well it isnt really is it

Etopia said:

Yes she own a liscence , but all the service she do offer now are out of the aprouved MA system ....
The Share , and trade PED/L$ are both total against the point of the MA last rule.

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Be interesting, in general though the EULA gives enough wiggle room for MA to either take/not take action. Judging by comments made on another forum, MA does not see what Anshe is doing as violating the terms of the EULA.

At the end of the day we can argued all we want about the semantics of a statement but the reality is that the EULA gives MA enough power to selectively enforce whatever they choose.

I support them in this. Provided they contact all the main players in this industry and ask them to stop providing loans in an amicable manner. They have (or should have but havn't - joy!) just implemented and sold a system for loans to the highest bidders hence if these loan people were serious they should have bidded along with the rest of the money men.

Aziphirael said:

Be interesting, in general though the EULA gives enough wiggle room for MA to either take/not take action. Judging by comments made on another forum, MA does not see what Anshe is doing as violating the terms of the EULA.

At the end of the day we can argued all we want about the semantics of a statement but the reality is that the EULA gives MA enough power to selectively enforce whatever they choose.

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Here there is nothing to argue about , that what is very interessing.
She do provide a banking service.
And she do provide it outside the banking system.
Wich , from the last statement , worth a permanent lock down...

Now if MA go "scementic , any player can sell share of a society , and pay back the share latter.

Its to MA to see if they whant evryone to become a dodgy asshole with rule or not...

But if MA start to create again a "shady shit" rules ... then it will result what we have allways get... people rewarded for cheating while fair player get fuked... and that resulted in skill nerf and lot of other stuff we now have in game because MA have lets player abuse rule and system too much.

Its really up to them ... but not beeing fair and clear wont help to get more investor evolving in the game....

Chinese angle

Sirhc said:

Well not entirely sure how easy this would be but MA could implement a certain amount of sellable stocks tied to each of the banking licenses. I mean there are only 5 of them for the next two years. Maybe that will be the next big thing having stocks associated with certain OLAs, Malls, and Banks. That might however open another can of worms that MA doesnt yet have the man power for but maybe when they collaborate with China they will. Ohhh well its fun to speculate

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I wonder if part of the Chinese deal is for the Chinese to provide programmers to help work on EU


Art

Konve said:

Oh stop your whining people!

This is just another example in the long line of things prooving that Calypso is a planet run by a capitalistic dictator - or, as Erns Billgren put it, "Entropia is a capitalistic dictatorship".

Now, get used to it or go make a petition or something.

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or mutiny
j/k

If I deposit and go hunting, loosing nearly all of my money to the holy loot-pool... then just before running out of PEDs get a global worth more than my initial deposit... am I guilty to "temporary loaning to the community"???

Oh, Marco, please give me a license for hunting... I don't want to get banned by loaning...


Ag.

Wistrel said:

I support them in this. Provided they contact all the main players in this industry and ask them to stop providing loans in an amicable manner. They have (or should have but havn't - joy!) just implemented and sold a system for loans to the highest bidders hence if these loan people were serious they should have bidded along with the rest of the money men.

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I think the point of this debate is that at the time of bidding unofficial loans were not considered a perm ban therefore the "loan people" you refer to didnt consider the automated banking system worth the money it was being sold for as they could do it without it. But since its been sold for such a high price the rules have changed. Its simply, in my opinion, a situation where people have paid alot of money above the actual value at a given time and MA are changing rules to help the people who "risked" the investment by nerfing the competition and in the long term the entire community....ie, anybody who wants this service in the future has to pay the higher price.

Wow, no more kid gloves lol. An interesting move, but I think most of us saw that coming no? Honestly, I can't blame them for wanting to protect those that have made a large investment- wouldnt you be upset if you just dropped that kinda of money? I am a bit at a loss understanding this though:

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT MINDARK SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR THE LOSS OF ANY DATA OR ELECTRONIC FILES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ACCOUNT, AVATAR AND ITEMS, FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, SERVER FAILURE, INTERRUPTIONS, INTERNET LATENCY, VIRUSES, DEFECTS, ERRORS, AND NEGLIGENT ACT OF MINDARK AND/OR ITS AFFILIATES.


Pandora's box, part two

i have do my result about the game now and i must say its the biggest crap i ever have seen in 20 years gameplaying.

Bertha Bot said:

any loan services offered outside the approved bank system will be considered by MindArk as scam attempts

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LOL
You guys at MindArk always have the most awesome and fancy excuses...!

Why dont you just say:

Hey, we received complaints from the right people. On account of this we will do our best to "protect" the official Bank-Licenses.
Sorry for legalizing your business a few days ago, but now it`s not legal anymore since some well connected players and investors cryed about your activities.

Everything else I will consider as lame excuse and simple lie.

Over&out V

Bertha Bot said:

Clarification about Entropia banking operations
04 June 2007
Therefore, any loan services offered outside the approved bank system will be considered by MindArk as scam attempts Originally Posted Here

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why? Why does it suddenly become a scam? and what makes it any different from the so called banks (which none of them are) services? A scam would be claiming you have real life banks involved when you don't, just resellers of financial services none of which are licenced as real banks

Bertha Bot said:

Clarification about Entropia banking operations
04 June 2007
and the avatar offering such services risk a permanent lockdown of his/her account.

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fuck wits

I think as another poster stated...

attempts to sell items on the street should be scam attempts as well.

all those shops aren't going to pay for themselves.. - ; P

kill two birds with one stone and just remove the trade feature all together.

and at that point why not just remove player interaction?... force us only to deal with terminals and NPC's.

better yet i'll just install that single player game that uses the same game engine.. - ; P

Buy a 100,000 USD shop!

slither said:

As I said in another thread, MA should protect my investment in my shop by banning all street traders.

coughbullshitcough

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buy a shop from them for 100K USD and they just MIGHT!

Art

thoreau said:

Here is the way I see this:

The community wanted a loan system in place.

MA did not provide a loan system in a reasonable time.

The community developed a loan system on their own initiative. They developed trust in the community and offered good service at a fair price.

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Services got offered, but fair price is IMHO debateable... did it back then and got bashed for it - so i skip that part here.

MA finally added a loan system.

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The final proceedings are still unknown to us 'normal' users. Unsure if the winners of the bank action are better informed yet about the exact proceedings. But all hints point into 'gimme item as collateral and i give you PED against interest' (=pawnshop).

MA needs to protect the financial investment of those that purchased bank licenses.

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Why?
It happened here more than once that an auction winner had to see that his investment dropped in price (minor tp chip anyone?).
Entropia Universe is dynamic.
That's the line which is fed to players by support on a daily basis.
Why not this time pass this line to 5 more customers complaining about unexpected twists of the percieved game mechanics?

In the past MA has said that they wish to create a platform for us, the community, to live in.

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Also known as 'good old times'?

Yet here we see MA acting like a gov't.

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Which can be good or bad. That depends on the view the goernment has on on it's relation between itself and the population.

They are saying they need to pass laws in order to protect the citizens from dishonest traders.

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The road to hell is plastered with good intentions.

Ideally an government is there for the people. Problem is that there comes a point where a government get that self-absorbed that the interests of the population is lost in the process. Normally then the population starts to feel threatened, then the government starts to oppress them to keep control.

Nothing different happens currently in RL in many countries.
Just look at the news from around the world.

I'm sure that in the long run MA's actions are for the good of us all.

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Only one quote comes into my mind here: Freedom is slavery.

Yet, I feel troubled by the move.

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Same here.

Hopefully we won't see more of this.

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Point is: the longer you take the crap you're fed - the worse it'll get.
As soon as you stop taking it the worst part is over.

It seems that EF should shut down and lock many of the services threads that offer loans as now they are seen as 'scamming' attempts.

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It would be sad to see EF (and a related service on which EF is based upon) shut down because of lack of users left.

Tussi

The sad part is that they stole the idea and now they are basically trying to get rid of the people who had this idea in the first place and then exploit it.
On our own expense that is...
I am REALLY wondering who are the real scammers in all of this matter...

Ok now, here's how I see the possible future if we don't get a statement about unlicensed stock systems and if there is nothing wrong with it from MA's part :

"I'm going to issue 10 million shares based on the value of my avatar and my items. So let's start at 1 ped each. Buy them now before someone else does ! I guarantee you gonna get filthy rich soon !!!
And for security, I will pawn all my items to the nextdoor licensed bank, so it is fully guaranteed safe investment Ok the items themself are hardly worth it but you never know when they go up in value. And you know blabladisclaimerdon'tgivemeanythingyoucan'taffordtoloose.

Hurry now to Safecertifiedvirtualstocks.com and get yourself registered. I will personally meet with you ingame to help you off those nasty peds you don't need right now. You are buying yourself a part of the virtual future, anything can happen, get rich, buy my stocks !!!"

Bertha Bot said:

Therefore, any loan services offered outside the approved bank system will be considered by MindArk as scam attempts and the avatar offering such services risk a permanent lockdown of his/her account.



Originally Posted Here

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Pfft.. how's this for a policy change:

22 May 2007 You wrote:
Hi
The five "banking" licenses you sold guaranteed the buyers a bank, a NPC and access to your pawnshop system. Is it still allowed for other players without a license to run pawnlike shops ?
28 May 2007 Entropia Support:
Hi,
The bank systems are safe systems where all transactions are defined and guaranteed by MindArk PE AB. If participants want to use pawnshop services outside these safe systems, we cannot object to that, but we also cannot offer support if problems occur.

Regards,
Entropia Support

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Back on topic to the Bertha post....It simply seems the biggest spenders will get richer and the small guy will end up paying.

LOL, the small guy being Akoz, Teilk and Cindywood????.....all known and respected players. Kind of puts into perspective where you the average player must come as a equal entity in the EU. It just shows that initiative and limited spending will get you nowhere if you are against a richer competitor...and thats illegal and against monopoly commisions in many countries.

I think next time I go on a hunt and lose a few ped ill write to MA and have the rules changed so in future all other people are in fear of a possible perm ban if they decide to hunt a mob when I think I should get rewarded.

Or better still, ill just deposit $100k and invest in a bank, that way MA will change the rules to suit me as im pouring money in regardless of the risk (as there simply doesnt seem to be any at the top amounts), just for us hunters, miners, crafters and business people to foot the bill of thier bad perchase.

MA, when I was new I paid 55 ped for a shogun face mask, big for me then...ill never get that for it now so can you adjust this for me and change some stats so I can reclaim my initial payment....

I wonder

Wonder if MA is thinking about some "five awesome reseller-licenses" very profitable too...


Ag.

Aziphirael said:

At the end of the day we can argued all we want about the semantics of a statement but the reality is that the EULA gives MA enough power to selectively enforce whatever they choose.

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Yup, but not just the EULA. In this case the card up their sleeve lies with the lack of fine print regarding the bank "licences" themselves. I was really surprised with the dearth of details regarding what specific banking "services" would be allowed when the bank auctions were announced. It seemed too much of black box, especially when cash outlays of such amount would seem to require much more due diligence from an investor.

Now I see why MA was so vague about it. For MA, the banks must be successful, or the PR hit will be devastating for future investment in EU. If the banks get off to a bad start, MA has the power of "vague-ness" behind them, allowing for the roll out of additional services to the bankers (I.E, stock offerings, commodity trading, etc) to ensure that they recoup their investment.

It would be very interesting to know what information MA provided to AC and the other bank license winners BEFORE they placed bids. If for instance, AC had information that stock offerings would be permitted exclusively to the 5 bankers as part of their "licenses", and the general public (& prospective other bidders) were kept in the dark, that smacks of dirty pool in my book.

For emerging markets to be successful, they need to instill confidence in the investing masses. In order for the investing public to place their confidence in the market, they need to see transparency, fairness and consistency throughout the process.

MA needs to think these things through in advance much better than they have. The knee-jerk statement at the end of their press release here sure makes me pause, and question my further investments (even if modest) in the game going forward. The little voice of doubt in my head grew a bit more vocal with this statement. Full disclosure and consistency from here on out MA, we don't want to see EU crumble like a house of cards.

Very intresting reading..

"Can we see the thread starter make further comments to this post?"

Akoz said:

Pfft.. how's this for a policy change:

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Oh dear....it just gets worse doesnt it

Teilk said:

I really appreciate the fact that MA has been kind enough to label all of us that have worked so hard for years to build an unblemished reputation that allows us to operate such businesses successfully with such pleasant terms as "scam attempt", and "permanent lockdown of account".


I am truly amazed that MA would pull such a stunt, though I know I should not be. the sudden reversal of policy is interesting as well. First it was more along the lines of "use at your own risk", now its "we will lock anyone who wants to compete in the free market".

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I dont think its like "scammers" they mean it but im sure they dont want to get involved with any "bankin" they have not approved because, you can bet on that someone will feel "scammed" at some point and will of course try to write a supportcase about it. And if MA state that they will not approve of any other "banks" than the one with licence they dont have to deal with all those supportcases that probably will come to MA otherwize.
And with no legal support in lending out money would anyone really take the risk to start a bank MA dont approve on?

Akoz said:

Pfft.. how's this for a policy change:

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thats a pretty sad state of affairs. massive PR blunder.

Ah, now I get the picture (look at PR at http://new.marketwire.com/2.0/rel.jsp?id=737761):

[...]virtual world utilizing a real cash economy, has been chosen by the Beijing Municipal People's Government supported online entertainment company Cyber Recreation Development Corp. (CRD) to create a cash-based virtual economy for China. [...]

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MA "has been chosen" to "create a cash-based ... economy for China". Of course in China you are not allowed to do business like you want to. So we just start learning the new rules of the biggest upcomming economy of the world. Has CRD bought MA?!?

Saying "Free Tibet! " will be okay till next VU... later... ah, MA knows how to make the well know Cyber-Giant happy.

EU is not PE, and EU is not a free universe anymore. That's virtual life. And like in life, you choose where to live... (if you are allowed to )


Ag.

Bertha Bot said:

..in order to protect the community from scams and cheating.

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Such a stupid lie!!..They showed disrespect to our mentality. I thought we where dealing with professionals..deeply disappointed!

They owe us an apology

Agnus_Dei said:

MA "has been chosen" to "create a cash-based ... economy for China". Of course in China you are not allowed to do business like you want to. So we just start learning the new rules of the biggest upcomming economy of the world. Has CRD bought MA?!?

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what you imply is exactly why i am VERY uncomfortable with this china deal. they are not known for their permissive practices.