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Clarification about Entropia banking operations

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wonder when someone from MA will have the balls to comment on this matter since akoz has a support ticket saying that it wasnt forbidden :scratch2:
 
fric said:
wonder when someone from MA will have the balls to comment on this matter since akoz has a support ticket saying that it wasnt forbidden :scratch2:
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Look at bottom of page... Marco is just reading here... :D


Ag.
 
I'm sure they'll see their mistake tomorrow; the announcement is full of contradictions, unclear statements and bad choise of words. They shouldn't have the underpaid intern made an important announcement like this when they have qualified communication managers :rolleyes:

Yes, the above statement is sarcasm. I'm just sad to see some nice additions to the universe and on the same day another piece of it dies: freedom.
 
Xen said:
So, unapproved loan services are considered scams, but when you loan someone something and don't get it back, it's just a trade - not a scam - and they won't (notice won't is not the same as can't) do shit for you.

What a load of fucking shit. :mad:
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Tell me about it!
When I sent a support case regarding a scammer who had scammed not just me, but multiple societies and publicly admitted it, they said they couldnt do anything because it meant them using their money to open such an investigation :laugh:

Sorry MA, but sounds like a load of dung if you ask me, not to mention contradictory...instead of dealing with real scammers , they are more afraid of people who are a threat to their current business plan, if it doesnt make them money, make it illegal...
 
Bertha Bot said:
Therefore, any loan services offered outside the approved bank system will be considered by MindArk as scam attempts and the avatar offering such services risk a permanent lockdown of his/her account.
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Its very sad to see MA using these kind of threats to protect big investors. They have a very poor record on dealing with real scammers (usually adopting the policy that all trades are final so it is out of their hands) and yet here they suggest the account will be at risk even if there is no suggestion or evidence of a scam.

The real reasons obviously have little or nothing to do with protecting the community so shame on you MindArk, both for the position you have adopted and the dishonest reasons you use to justify it.
 
So in my opinion and experience people asking to LOAN stuff make up a much bigger portion of the scammers. Shouldn't MA then tag everyone that asks to loan items from people as scammers and lock down their accounts as well?
Hey how about we just disable item trade!?

In my opinion there is no doubt what the real motivation behind this new "rule" is, and it is not to add to the safety of the community!

Enough said.
 
Not Forbidden NOW.

fric said:
wonder when someone from MA will have the balls to comment on this matter since akoz has a support ticket saying that it wasnt forbidden :scratch2:
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EULA basically says we can change what we want when we want and you have no recourse.

Precisely why I sold my hangar!
 
Janus said:
MA needs to think these things through in advance much better than they have. The knee-jerk statement at the end of their press release here sure makes me pause, and question my further investments (even if modest) in the game going forward. The little voice of doubt in my head grew a bit more vocal with this statement. Full disclosure and consistency from here on out MA, we don't want to see EU crumble like a house of cards.
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I absolutelly feel the same way. And I am quite positive many other current players do as well... It is outrageous in my own eyes what is happening.
They thought perhaps that they would switch our attention from this with their new VU and all the new stuff filled with bugs...
Maybe they dont even want us ;) the chinese potential players that would join blinded their judgement and all that they can see is $$$...
MA, I hope you enjoy that champagne you are drinking...
 
Aziphirael said:
Be interesting, in general though the EULA gives enough wiggle room for MA to either take/not take action. Judging by comments made on another forum, MA does not see what Anshe is doing as violating the terms of the EULA.
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Considering the topic that popped up just a few days ago on RCE-universe: Court Rules Against Linden Lab Terms of Service

"The court decision essentially holds LL to a higher standard than any virtual world company has been held before, as far as I know. In part, the decision grows out of the fact that real money is at play in Second Life, and out of LL’s and Rosedale’s relentless promotion of SL as a place where money can be earned. (I’m not speculating on this; it’s made explicit in the filing.) Essentially, what the court is saying is, “If you’re going to bill your world as an earning opportunity, you have to toe a more rigorous line in governing it” ...... To me, this looks like an important decision that could start to bring governance of virtual worlds up to the standard it needs to be — something more akin to the standards by which we govern the real world. At the very least, it’s nice to see a court take these issues seriously."

Im not so sure the EULA gives any wiggle-room at all, should someone wish to challenge it.

Aziphirael said:
At the end of the day we can argued all we want about the semantics of a statement but the reality is that the EULA gives MA enough power to selectively enforce whatever they choose.
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Calling it semantics however, is dismissing it to the point of naivity imo. You know as well as anyone that MA just killed any business CBE or anyone else might have been able to build up with that announcement. Even should someone wish to challenge MA's statement, and go ahead and advertize their loaning-business, they would have to do it fully aware of the stated intent from MA to ban anyone doing so.
I doubt anyone would be willing to risk the several 100.000 peds it would take to run a pawnshop/bank, and even more doubt that they would be getting any customers, who also know that they, or their items might disappear at the whims of MA trying to protect the licence-holders interest.
 
So if I understand correctly if you didn't put up the big bucks to get in on the banking (pawnshops) system your not trust worthy. Thats a load of :bs:
 
I fully understand that frustration and emotion is running high right now. The policy update was the result after having discussions and feedback with the support department, who got dozens of requests from participants who wanted to start loan services. A lot of the people behind the requests are ones with a shady background in the Entropia. We saw a rapid rise in fraudulent enterprise forming, which would hurt the little guy. We decided to act pre-emptevly and state that those who publicly offers loan services hereby us to be viewed upon as scammers, because that is the only real way to act. My horror scene would have been seen 50 loan sharks in Port Atlantis scamming newcomers from their first PEDs, killing all fun and all hope for them. The biggest sad thing in this is that those who manage a trusted venture gets tossed in with the rest, but at this point we cannot differentiated in a way that MA can guarantee.
 
So "known Scammers" asked the Support if they can run a Loan service??
and thats why you guys at MA are now afraid that the "little guy" in PA get scammed?

So everybody who says: You give me your Rifle, i give you ped, you get your Rifle back if you give me my ped+5%...

Yes, i have seen SOOOO many scammes like that in PA. Its not like most scammers used bugs in the trade or tried the whatever upgrade/color scamm.

Sorry Marco, nice story but i just don´t belive you! I really ask myself if i should stay in EU.
With every "Big Sale" EU loose fun for the "little" guy. All those big investors want to be paid - with big money...
First it was only you, MA, who got our money. Now its the owners of LA, CND and the Banks. THAT huts the little guy!
What do you think this economy should run with? What is possible for those who don´t put in a few 10k$?
Work in RL to pay taxes, crazy markups, banks and you to run around and loose money with hunting, mining and crafting crap for the TT?
Big fun! Somehow you lost a vision MA, your virtual World is worse than the real one. You think we pay for that? To feel like shit? Its time for you to make it possible to pay with the time you stay in the game. Making ped while actually doing something! At the moment, it cost money to do something, but if you invest a lot of money it ok to login once a month a withdraw? What kind of "game" is this? I am willing to work in EU and since EU IS (IT IS...or was) a GAME that work should be fun, atlast a little fun.

Next VU you kill Events which are not made with the Eventsystem? Because you sold the system? And every Event organised outside the system will be seen as Scamm?
 
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Marco|MindArk said:
I fully understand that frustration and emotion is running high right now. The policy update was the result after having discussions and feedback with the support department, who got dozens of requests from participants who wanted to start loan services. A lot of the people behind the requests are ones with a shady background in the Entropia. We saw a rapid rise in fraudulent enterprise forming, which would hurt the little guy. We decided to act pre-emptevly and state that those who publicly offers loan services hereby us to be viewed upon as scammers, because that is the only real way to act. My horror scene would have been seen 50 loan sharks in Port Atlantis scamming newcomers from their first PEDs, killing all fun and all hope for them. The biggest sad thing in this is that those who manage a trusted venture gets tossed in with the rest, but at this point we cannot differentiated in a way that MA can guarantee.
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Try again :rolleyes:
 
Marco|MindArk said:
I fully understand that frustration and emotion is running high right now. The policy update was the result after having discussions and feedback with the support department, who got dozens of requests from participants who wanted to start loan services. A lot of the people behind the requests are ones with a shady background in the Entropia. We saw a rapid rise in fraudulent enterprise forming, which would hurt the little guy. We decided to act pre-emptevly and state that those who publicly offers loan services hereby us to be viewed upon as scammers, because that is the only real way to act. My horror scene would have been seen 50 loan sharks in Port Atlantis scamming newcomers from their first PEDs, killing all fun and all hope for them. The biggest sad thing in this is that those who manage a trusted venture gets tossed in with the rest, but at this point we cannot differentiated in a way that MA can guarantee.
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Excuses...this is all I see here.
"but at this point we cannot differentiated in a way that MA can guarantee"
But you can make dozens or whatever the number of new planets???:scratch2:
 
Sounds an awful lot like protectionism of the Big Banking interests, more then looking out for the all of the sudden important little guy
 
lol chill out you guys gotta learn not to take MA so seriously they also said they would perma-ban autoclicker users and when have you EVER herd of that happeneing.

this is a cover your ass tactic to PROTECT US. There is NO WAY MA is going to be out there cheking logs to see who is trading items for nothing back or anything like that it's just impossible to figure out whats what.

Trading stuff between friends and even those other LEGIT lending people will probably not be a problem unless they start scamming people and complaints start rolling in.
 
RexDameon said:
lol chill out you guys gotta learn not to take MA so seriously they also said they would perma-ban autoclicker users and when have you EVER herd of that happeneing.

this is a cover your ass tactic to PROTECT US. There is NO WAY MA is going to be out there cheking logs to see who is trading items for nothing back or anything like that it's just impossible to figure out whats what.

Trading stuff between friends and even those other LEGIT lending people will probably not be a problem unless they start scamming people and complaints start rolling in.
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The word is "Service" like profession. Not a deal with friends.... This statment from MA just makes it VERY dangerous even to offer that "Service" to "friends" and advertice here on EF...
 
Marco|MindArk said:
I fully understand that frustration and emotion is running high right now. The policy update was the result after having discussions and feedback with the support department, who got dozens of requests from participants who wanted to start loan services. A lot of the people behind the requests are ones with a shady background in the Entropia. We saw a rapid rise in fraudulent enterprise forming, which would hurt the little guy. We decided to act pre-emptevly and state that those who publicly offers loan services hereby us to be viewed upon as scammers, because that is the only real way to act. My horror scene would have been seen 50 loan sharks in Port Atlantis scamming newcomers from their first PEDs, killing all fun and all hope for them. The biggest sad thing in this is that those who manage a trusted venture gets tossed in with the rest, but at this point we cannot differentiated in a way that MA can guarantee.
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So let me get this straight, you know who the scammers are but you refuse to let TRUSTED players give loans to WILLING participants of our system because scammers who you haven't banned yet might scam someone? Sounds like an excuse to make sure your high paying bank investors don't lose their money to me.
 
Why is this so hard to understand???

In the real world, you cannot go around calling yourself a "bank" or offer identical services as a bank without a license.

Mindark is simply mirroring what exists in the real world: creating a controlled process in which cash loans (in this case, secured cash loans) are made. They are then making it clear that anyone offering such services outside of such approved processes are unauthorized.

They are not saying that players can't make loans to EU friends. they are simply saying that players cannot offer banking services (identical to those offered by the licensed banks).

In the real world, I can loan my friend/brother money, that doesn't make me a bank. However, if I open up a shop in my town, and offer to lend money and charge interest without a license, my shop will be closed and I'll probably be arrested.

Same thing that MA is doing, no? Protecting consumers by regulating how such transactions are conducted, and created a system that is secure and guaranteed for both parties involved.

It only makes sense to prohibit unlicensed operators, imo.

I say good job MA. :wtg:
 
Marco|MindArk said:
I fully understand that frustration and emotion is running high right now. The policy update was the result after having discussions and feedback with the support department, who got dozens of requests from participants who wanted to start loan services. A lot of the people behind the requests are ones with a shady background in the Entropia. We saw a rapid rise in fraudulent enterprise forming, which would hurt the little guy. We decided to act pre-emptevly and state that those who publicly offers loan services hereby us to be viewed upon as scammers, because that is the only real way to act. My horror scene would have been seen 50 loan sharks in Port Atlantis scamming newcomers from their first PEDs, killing all fun and all hope for them. The biggest sad thing in this is that those who manage a trusted venture gets tossed in with the rest, but at this point we cannot differentiated in a way that MA can guarantee.
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Gotta agree with ragethecorp. You know certain folks have "shady backgrounds", which means you already knew they were dishonest. Which BTW also means that you know Teilk's, Akoz's, and Condy's background, and whether they're "shady" or not.

See, if you'd nipped the scamming thing in the bud, and banned known scammers "with shady pasts", this wouldn't have happened, and these folks could go on with their legitimate (albeit unsecured) business.
 
Marco|MindArk said:
I fully understand that frustration and emotion is running high right now. The policy update was the result after having discussions and feedback with the support department, who got dozens of requests from participants who wanted to start loan services. A lot of the people behind the requests are ones with a shady background in the Entropia. We saw a rapid rise in fraudulent enterprise forming, which would hurt the little guy. We decided to act pre-emptevly and state that those who publicly offers loan services hereby us to be viewed upon as scammers, because that is the only real way to act. My horror scene would have been seen 50 loan sharks in Port Atlantis scamming newcomers from their first PEDs, killing all fun and all hope for them. The biggest sad thing in this is that those who manage a trusted venture gets tossed in with the rest, but at this point we cannot differentiated in a way that MA can guarantee.
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With all do respect marco isn't it up to the gamer to choose what activities to trust and invest in?

I must say I have a hard time imagening scammers running a business model like ours. We lend out up to 90% of the items value. That means a possible scammer can run off with 10% of items value while having to risk the remaining 90% he has to put up as peds as he can be locked at any time. Who would risk 90k to gain 10? In fact in the few days we have been opened we -the bankers have already been the subject of several scam attempts from players trying to get way more peds for items than they are really worth.

A lot of possible shady businesses has come and gone. Common for most are that they unlike us require the user to invest in them with no waranty. Everything from investment funds to the sale of "stocks" in their ingame businesses for quardouble their ingame businesses value. The scam potential in each of these cases are up to hundreds of thousands of peds. Every day many dozens of newcomers are scammed by people "loaning" items. Why do you really have to shut down a business where no actualy scamming has even occured on the pure thought that it could?

You are communication manager for a reason Marco. You are good at stocking the words so they sound convincing, but I don't think even you can manage to make this new rule look like anything but a desperate measure to protect your headline investors from competition.
 
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Marco|MindArk said:
I fully understand that frustration and emotion is running high right now. The policy update was the result after having discussions and feedback with the support department, who got dozens of requests from participants who wanted to start loan services. A lot of the people behind the requests are ones with a shady background in the Entropia. We saw a rapid rise in fraudulent enterprise forming, which would hurt the little guy. We decided to act pre-emptevly and state that those who publicly offers loan services hereby us to be viewed upon as scammers, because that is the only real way to act. My horror scene would have been seen 50 loan sharks in Port Atlantis scamming newcomers from their first PEDs, killing all fun and all hope for them. The biggest sad thing in this is that those who manage a trusted venture gets tossed in with the rest, but at this point we cannot differentiated in a way that MA can guarantee.
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Ah, excellent answer Marco. Now I understand. So you will not allow anyone without a license to own an asteroid anymore, if some of that "shady" people ask you to have an asteroid too, right?
I am looking forward to see "asteroid-licenses" in auction then.

Marco, both of us know this was BULLSHIT from MA-department. Just say sorry and we all are happy again. It's okay, we all have bad/funny days...

Ag.

PS: You might not know, but most of us are older than 3 years and can read (and maybe think)... (no smilie, because this was meant serious)
 
Marco|MindArk said:
My horror scene would have been seen 50 loan sharks in Port Atlantis scamming newcomers from their first PEDs, killing all fun and all hope for them.
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I normally don't post in these threads but then I read the quote above :rolleyes:

Scamming newcomers is happening every day but nothing is ever done about it! Armor upgrade anyone?! I'll sell you my Opalo for tt+2ped etc. And please tell me why, if there are some in game with 'shady backgrounds' are they still permitted to play?! I can't see this as protecting anyone except maybe MA's income as they are large depositers :money:
 
Marco|MindArk said:
I fully understand that frustration and emotion is running high right now. The policy update was the result after having discussions and feedback with the support department, who got dozens of requests from participants who wanted to start loan services. A lot of the people behind the requests are ones with a shady background in the Entropia. We saw a rapid rise in fraudulent enterprise forming, which would hurt the little guy. We decided to act pre-emptevly and state that those who publicly offers loan services hereby us to be viewed upon as scammers, because that is the only real way to act. My horror scene would have been seen 50 loan sharks in Port Atlantis scamming newcomers from their first PEDs, killing all fun and all hope for them. The biggest sad thing in this is that those who manage a trusted venture gets tossed in with the rest, but at this point we cannot differentiated in a way that MA can guarantee.
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I dont think that there was much discussion at all. I think that one or more of the high dollar investors sent you an angry email stating that they were upset about the fact that we were bright enough to realize that we did not need to spend what they did to do the same thing, and better. I am gonna take another shot in the dark, and guess that either way you landed on this issue was a losing situation for you. Let us do what we have been doing (with no scam attempts, I may add, your little "official statement" not withstanding) and alienate the big money that just bought overvalued businesses, or side with them and alienate the majority of the population by stomping out small business like you think your wal-mart or something. After choosing the latter, while I understand that there is at least a profit to be made from the trades done with the banks, you have made it quite clear that you do not support small business endeavors in EU.

As far as your little statement about tossing us in with "the rest" goes, I guess that clarifies MA's position better than I ever could. There are the big money investors, and "the rest". Frankly, after this stunt, I am quite happy to be part of "the rest". I at least have some morals and a code of ethical standards.
 
LuckyStrike said:
In the real world, you cannot go around calling yourself a "bank" or offer identical services as a bank without a license.
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But you can lend your friend $500 and they give you $550 a month later.

This game isnt supposed to be the same as the real world. In the real world can you go hunting without a license? Does that mean soon theyre going to make us buy hunting licenses?In the real world do robots attack you? In the real world do people try to scam you as soon as you walk off a ship and are "born" as an adult?

This game is supposed to be fun and allow people to do what they want and create what businesses they want. Banking is one of them. Just because there are some risks with this business if they dont have a license doesnt mean MA should ban it. What about coloring? The colorer could steal the clothing but we take the chance, and its our choice to do it.
 
LuckyStrike, I've given the data as I know it. To answer your questions best, I believe will now be best left to those you mentioned.
 
ragethecorp said:
But you can lend your friend $500 and they give you $550 a month later.
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You charge your friends interest? Nice friend you are. And only 10% a month, how nice of you!

ragethecorp said:
This game isnt supposed to be the same as the real world. In the real world can you go hunting without a license? Does that mean soon theyre going to make us buy hunting licenses?In the real world do robots attack you? In the real world do people try to scam you as soon as you walk off a ship and are "born" as an adult?

This game is supposed to be fun and allow people to do what they want and create what businesses they want. Banking is one of them. Just because there are some risks with this business if they dont have a license doesnt mean MA should ban it. What about coloring? The colorer could steal the clothing but we take the chance, and its our choice to do it.
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This isn't a game, never was.
 
ragethecorp said:
The colorer could steal the clothing but we take the chance, and its our choice to do it.
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You'd be surprised how many newbies ask me for collateral on a 3 ped pair of pants, needless to say I don't give any :laugh:

Oops am I now considered a scammer and going to get my account blocked?!
 
LuckyStrike said:
Are you sugeesting that Teilk created the whole concept of making a secured loan??
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By no means was I the creator of the idea. Moneylenders have been around since, well, money.

I am however, the first to actually make it work successfully and profitably here on EU.
As far as the rest of your slander and unresearched opinions go, you might want to get all the facts before spewing that bile that you seem to consider thoughtful insight.
 
Akoz said:
It would be foolish to say that nobody ever did a loan from another player before Teilk started his business, but if you check the date of this thread:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44103
And the date that MA announced the banks would come on auction there should be no doubt who was first.
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Loan services existed before Teilk's.

in fact, Dub provided links to just 4 of them in Teilk's thread that you so kindly linked:


dub said:
Oh boy, another yawn shop. An inspired creation, and with his superb attitude I'm certain it will be a roaring success! :rolleyes:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6676

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18469

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19559

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17453
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I guess the only thing to say here is:

OWNED
 
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