The efficiency of scopes/lasers - Statistics/Discussion

Well let me speak for myself - quoting an paragraph in an oooold post in this thread..

I have full 100% hit ability on mobs that are "way n00b" for me, that being molisk young, bery young, (name em in that rank).

Now if I then move up to molisk leader, bery stalker, agronaut leader, hogglo young... Then I have somewhat 95% hit ability with my SiB HL6 10/10 in both.

Nobody has ever been able to proof 100% hitability on a mob, so I think you just had a lucky moment. When you do a significant amount of shots you will notice your hitrate converges to about 92% at 10/10. Unless you are able to proof otherwise (for example, 1000 sequential shots with 10 or less misses).
 
I believe there's no question about the scope and sights not contributing to the DMG profession right?

If they do anything, they only improve your HIT profession by the skill modifier percentage. I believe the currently collected stats do show the HA being affected, but the inflicted damage is not mentioned.

Since Witte's tool does record this I was wondering whether research has been done regarding my first statement (dmg profession).

What i did was show that the damage distribution is still uniform. IMO, unless someone finds that the damage distribution is nonuniform under some conditions, it is impossible for skills or attachments to affect it (skills only affecting the minimum damage that can be done, of course). Here's the post from last time that came up in this thread:
I looked at the damage distribution from the first part of the hunt (before changing amps). The average fraction of max damage done was 0.696. 0.692 is what is predicted by taking the mean of min and max.

20080203-EU-Damagedistribution.gif


Still looks like a uniform distribution to me.

Actually, id like to claim that the "depends on what you shoot at" thing you get while hoovering the HA has nothing to do with mob nor maturity but rather PVE vs PVP.

Id like to claim that the HA maths that we know of are for PVE, but that the caluclations change for PVP.

Yeah, that's what i think, and the second paragraph there is definitely true, as was summarized in Recoda's third post (quoting me):

Result:
It apparently is indeed possible to get 100% hits in PvP. What's not so certain is the nature of the range from 0 HA to 10 HA. The base HA gives around 0.8 hit rate -- the same as against mobs -- but even at just halfway to maxed i was getting nearly perfect hits. I think it might be a higher order curve than linear, which would mean that skill mod attachments in PvP would be less effective than against mobs (and also mean that low (Hit) skills in PvP aren't as important); however, it is not certain from my tests if skill mod does anything at all in PvP.
hit_rate.gif

Possible progression for HA in PvP compared with well-characterized progression in PvMobs

If someone with 2-4 HA wants to add a point to the PvP data, it would help clarify what the curve looks like.

A bit offtopic but, is it just me or are umbranoids way harder to hit than other mobs :\

I haven't hunted them since they returned. It could be that the hit box is screwed up like it is with the miner bots. The other alternative is that MA actually gave them dodge and introduced a new HA function for them. I'm going to assume it's the first of the two for now. ;)

Well let me speak for myself - quoting an paragraph in an oooold post in this thread..

I have full 100% hit ability on mobs that are "way n00b" for me, that being molisk young, bery young, (name em in that rank).

Now if I then move up to molisk leader, bery stalker, agronaut leader, hogglo young... Then I have somewhat 95% hit ability with my SiB HL6 10/10 in both.

I'd love to see your results of a run of 1k shots using Witte's damage parser to keep track of hits. It would blow my mind if that was actually the case, and MA would have a whole lot of explaining to do because i never get over 90ish% even maxed out. :laugh:
 
I'd love to see your results of a run of 1k shots using Witte's damage parser to keep track of hits. It would blow my mind if that was actually the case, and MA would have a whole lot of explaining to do because i never get over 90ish% even maxed out. :laugh:

Wheres that to be found?
Witte's damage parser
 
I looked at the damage distribution from the first part of the hunt (before changing amps). The average fraction of max damage done was 0.696. 0.692 is what is predicted by taking the mean of min and max.

20080203-EU-Damagedistribution.gif


Still looks like a uniform distribution to me.

I did take note of this post, but it was not clear to me whether this test was run with or without skill modifying attachments and what the difference between the two is (with and without). However I assume that the predicted avg of 0.692 was based on the assumption that the attachments did not impact the average damage. I'll be happy and silent if you can confirm that ;)

I do believe the damage distribution is uniform (as shown in the graph), but i was wondering whether the min damage was affected by the attachments. As i am only on level 21 with my highest dmg profession, i think the difference would hardly be noticable. (especially with my noobish attachments).
 
I did take note of this post, but it was not clear to me whether this test was run with or without skill modifying attachments and what the difference between the two is (with and without). However I assume that the predicted avg of 0.692 was based on the assumption that the attachments did not impact the average damage. I'll be happy and silent if you can confirm that ;)

I do believe the damage distribution is uniform (as shown in the graph), but i was wondering whether the min damage was affected by the attachments. As i am only on level 21 with my highest dmg profession, i think the difference would hardly be noticable. (especially with my noobish attachments).

That damage is with attachments on. The minimum damage is unaffected.
 
Well let me speak for myself - quoting an paragraph in an oooold post in this thread..

I have full 100% hit ability on mobs that are "way n00b" for me, that being molisk young, bery young, (name em in that rank).

Now if I then move up to molisk leader, bery stalker, agronaut leader, hogglo young... Then I have somewhat 95% hit ability with my SiB HL6 10/10 in both.

I'd love to see your results of a run of 1k shots using Witte's damage parser to keep track of hits. It would blow my mind if that was actually the case, and MA would have a whole lot of explaining to do because i never get over 90ish% even maxed out. :laugh:

I felt when I was shooting Pluma Youngs with LR53 in the utterly insane thread, that it may have been possible to achieve 100% hits. I only did 102 kills which isn't enough to deduce anything really. But of the four misses, two of them were 'explainable' by the mob starting to move just as I shot and the other two were shooting up a steepish slope. Probably worthy of further testing.

I recorded my hits/misses and damage in the other tests too, with M2100 I was getting below 90% hit rate. I haven't put the results in a spreadsheet yet, I'll upload it somewhere when I do.
 
I felt when I was shooting Pluma Youngs with LR53 in the utterly insane thread, that it may have been possible to achieve 100% hits. I only did 102 kills which isn't enough to deduce anything really. But of the four misses, two of them were 'explainable' by the mob starting to move just as I shot and the other two were shooting up a steepish slope. Probably worthy of further testing.

I recorded my hits/misses and damage in the other tests too, with M2100 I was getting below 90% hit rate. I haven't put the results in a spreadsheet yet, I'll upload it somewhere when I do.

I was of the impression this is explained in the rollover of Hit ability.

On the flipside, i'm also convinced mob critical hit ability drops just as it's normal hit ability does: my bet would be it does that y axis tan-thingy.

(also recently doing large runs on thorifoid comparing watcher/adept/gatherer to clan elder/dreamers.... huge difference in crit ability)
 
I was of the impression this is explained in the rollover of Hit ability.

That is easily explained by the difference between PvP and PvM HA curves as i mentioned a few times before.

I'd like to see results of a good test here of such high HA, though.
 
That is easily explained by the difference between PvP and PvM HA curves as i mentioned a few times before.

I'd like to see results of a good test here of such high HA, though.

Okay this has probably been answered but i cant be asked or lets say its a long process to go through each post,

When you say the lasers and scopes have to be fully repaired to show effect lets say full tt,

You go hunt and they decay how decayed do they have to be to start decreasing your HA and shots aim and such. Im sure you catch the drift

regards
The Crouching Tiger
 
Okay this has probably been answered but i cant be asked or lets say its a long process to go through each post,

When you say the lasers and scopes have to be fully repaired to show effect lets say full tt,

I see that you've quoted me, so i'll respond: I don't.
 
just checked to see god knows why i quoted you just not relevant lol
 
My apologies if I missed this, but I did not see it mentioned here...

A discussion came up last night in soc chat: I posed this question.

Is the skill mod of a scope applied if the hunter is not looking through the scope? Keep in mind that the graphics change if the mouse wheel is rolled forward to reflect looking through a scope. Also note that the first "roll" produces zero magnification - the zoom factor is shown as 1.00000

Some will argue that yes it is applied because the scope decays regardless of if you are looking through the scope. That could simply be because the attachment is on the tool when the tool is used... does not mean the scope's skill mod was applied. Why have the graphics change if it means nothing? Which brings up another question:

Does a scope decay faster if you are actually looking through it? I can test this on my own, of course... I was just curious if it had already been done. A sampling of about 500 shots should do the trick unless the difference in decay is like 0.00001 pec (in which case, who cares?)

I wonder... how many of us actually look through the scope when firing at a creature? Not just a Marber... do you do it with a pistol...? ;)

I would greatly like to run a few test samples, but I want the brains to tell me what data to record. My gear:

Marber Bravo +A104 +C-Scope +C-larer sights x2 (Level 48 hit)
Starkhov AS-117 +Beast +C-scope +C-laser sights x2 (Level 51 hit)
Omegaton M2875 +A104 +C-Scope +C-larer sights x2 (Level 53 hit)

Should I test on different mobs / one mob only? We know that HA is dependant on the enemy... You guys know what would be useful so just let me know.
 
Is the skill mod of a scope applied if the hunter is not looking through the scope? Keep in mind that the graphics change if the mouse wheel is rolled forward to reflect looking through a scope. Also note that the first "roll" produces zero magnification - the zoom factor is shown as 1.00000

I think it is, but that's even less conclusive than that the attachments affect HA as we currently think they do.

Some will argue that yes it is applied because the scope decays regardless of if you are looking through the scope. That could simply be because the attachment is on the tool when the tool is used... does not mean the scope's skill mod was applied. Why have the graphics change if it means nothing?

It means the graphics viewport has switched to your scope instead of your avatar. I think that it's an arbitrary design decision dating back to very early in the development of PE.

Which brings up another question:

Does a scope decay faster if you are actually looking through it? I can test this on my own, of course... I was just curious if it had already been done. A sampling of about 500 shots should do the trick unless the difference in decay is like 0.00001 pec (in which case, who cares?)

I haven't tested that but it would probably be known if it was so. A single fruit test would suffice to answer it.
 
I have noticed then you typically gain skill when you actually shoot and hit an enemy. So...would scope/sight help in that sense of gaining the extra skills because they would help with the hit ratio with Old school UL weapons/unmaxed SIB weapons?

Or shoot/miss does not affect skill gains at all?

Thanks.
 
VU 5.1 - 13 JUN 2003
...Possibility to learn from mistake
When failing using a skill the avatar still has a small chance of raising the skill.
...

This is the only mention from MA regarding that... and it was a while ago.

This was quoted from my History of Skill thread linked in siggie below.
 
Sorry i don't see your siggy links.

Although a small possibility to learn from mistake...but if u gain less compared to actually hitting, then hitting would help you gain more skill right?
 
Sorry i don't see your siggy links.

No reason to be sorry... I mentioned the link in case you were interested in reading about the changes to the skill system over the years.

Although a small possibility to learn from mistake...but if u gain less compared to actually hitting, then hitting would help you gain more skill right?

You would think so... but this is MA we are talking about. God only knows how it all works :laugh:

There are times when I am getting a skill gain with every shot on a Argonaut Scout... but nothing at all for an entire Ambulimax Provider :scratch2:
 
For shits and giggles... I used Omegaton M2875 +A104 +C-Scope +C-laser sights x2 (Level 53 hit) against Ambulimax Youngs.

Total damage inflicted while looking thru the scope = 5860.5
Total damage inflicted NOT looking thru the scope = 5875.1

Hit rate while looking thru the scope = 85.7% (25 missed)
Hit rate NOT looking thru the scope = 83.9% (27 missed)

Dmg/hit while looking thru the scope = 39.07
Dmg/hit NOT looking thru the scope = 41.67

Pretty damn close, I would say ;)

I missed more NOT looking thru the scope, but I did more damage... :scratch2:

I would be interested to see a similar test by a similar skilled avatar using a (L) weapon @ 10/10.
 
so do lasers and shit actually raise your lvl or not i cant read it all but people been saying at lvl 70 with the right lasers and scopes you are essentially lvl100 (10/10) i found this to be bullshit... did your tests prove this to be true or false i am short on time to read it all
 
so do lasers and shit actually raise your lvl or not i cant read it all but people been saying at lvl 70 with the right lasers and scopes you are essentially lvl100 (10/10) i found this to be bullshit... did your tests prove this to be true or false i am short on time to read it all

To be honest, I am not really sure. It seems to suggest that it makes sense to attach them to your weapon, but do not look thru the scope :laugh:

I want to do more testing and include different mobs too :wise:
 
it was orginally hypothesized that attachments just added to decay... to maybe help in a payback while hunting... kinda like u put more in... decay + ammo... u get more out in a hof... who knows... all i know is when u attach things to your weapon... it doesnt show increase in your 10/10 and if it effected that shit it would...
 
it was orginally hypothesized that attachments just added to decay... to maybe help in a payback while hunting... kinda like u put more in... decay + ammo... u get more out in a hof... who knows... all i know is when u attach things to your weapon... it doesnt show increase in your 10/10 and if it effected that shit it would...

Sounds like you have your answer, then--why did you ask?

If you do actually want to know, the first few posts do a decent job of answering.
 
I tend to find that on a maxed wepon with a scope and a lazer on it doesn't increase your hit but the amount of dammage you do

with no atachments you tend to do less dammage per shot than with attachments (not including the amp as we all know this helps)

I haven't done any real tests to verify this its just an opinion.
 
From the test of Rayne ( I appreciate your time and effort) , we can see there is no difference between looking and NOT looking through the scope.

The difference in total damage is so small, less than 0.2% in that test. There is always random and chaos factor, so the 0.2% difference means there is no difference when you look or not look through the scope.

For the theory that the decay of scope and lazer will be counted in loot pool, there is no way testing that. Loot is totally dynamic so there is no reliable test enough to test that theory.
 
I tend to find that on a maxed wepon with a scope and a lazer on it doesn't increase your hit but the amount of dammage you do

with no atachments you tend to do less dammage per shot than with attachments (not including the amp as we all know this helps)

I haven't done any real tests to verify this its just an opinion.

This thread is for tests and discussion of the results. Please don't present opinions that have been refuted over and over.
 
Has anyone tested the Average Damage?

My hit rate is 1.3/10 I do dmg of 13.1/44 on my weapon.

Seems that I get a SLIGHT increase to my hit rate (not showing on stats) when I have 2 Hunnir Laser Sights and 1 Jzar Scope attached giving me a Skill Mod of 58. What I did notice is that I consistently hit from 25-44 for dmg. Mostly hits in the 30s sometimes 40s. When I take my attachments off, I notice I am hitting a lot more from 13.1-44. Rarely in the 40s and most in the 20s-low 30s.
 
Has anyone tested the Average Damage?

My hit rate is 1.3/10 I do dmg of 13.1/44 on my weapon.

Seems that I get a SLIGHT increase to my hit rate (not showing on stats) when I have 2 Hunnir Laser Sights and 1 Jzar Scope attached giving me a Skill Mod of 58. What I did notice is that I consistently hit from 25-44 for dmg. Mostly hits in the 30s sometimes 40s. When I take my attachments off, I notice I am hitting a lot more from 13.1-44. Rarely in the 40s and most in the 20s-low 30s.
1. Look at the date of last post
2. do you have any data on this as I highly doubt that's the case.

And since you are lvl13(I think) why are you using a old school ul weapon?
 
Has anyone tested the Average Damage?

My hit rate is 1.3/10 I do dmg of 13.1/44 on my weapon.

Seems that I get a SLIGHT increase to my hit rate (not showing on stats) when I have 2 Hunnir Laser Sights and 1 Jzar Scope attached giving me a Skill Mod of 58. What I did notice is that I consistently hit from 25-44 for dmg. Mostly hits in the 30s sometimes 40s. When I take my attachments off, I notice I am hitting a lot more from 13.1-44. Rarely in the 40s and most in the 20s-low 30s.

Do you run the Entropia Tracker client? That will parse the chat log for you and tell you your long-term hit rate and average damage.
 
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