Info: Project, TT% returns, 90%?

thx to Immortal we do have now a solution.

Ace's overall hit rate with rebombing and a 54m finder is 25.08%. Kubroz using a 55m finder has 26.6%.

Using our models, which do assume complete randomness, does give a 25.4% hit rate for Ace and 26.2% for Kubroz. Hence, there are two observations that would confirm that claims are distributed randomly over an area.

P.S.:
Moreover, this does indirectly also confrim a hit rate of 27% with a 55m finder.
 
..As we're rebombing, there was already a find in the fraction of the old area and hence we're interested in

P(hits >1|1 hit) = .18%/22.37% = .81%

So in total the probability of a hit in rebomb is

22.37% + .81% = 23.18% and in total we would get


(.27+.27*.2318)/(1+.27) = 26.2%

sry, there is still an error:

P(hits >1) in the fraction of the old area is 5.97% and not 22.37%. (did confuse new with old). Hence we do have



P(hits >1|1 hit) = .18%/5.97% = 3.04%

22.37% + 3.04% = 25.41% and in total we would get


(.27+.27*.2541)/(1+.27) = 26.66%


For Ace it would be 25.8%.

All in all it still fits.
 
Using our models, which do assume complete randomness, does give a 25.4% hit rate for Ace and 26.2% for Kubroz. Hence, there are two observations that would confirm that claims are distributed randomly over an area.

Not sure if i understand right here or if i'm just confused but you havent really confirmed anything. What if veins do exist and the claim just jumped one spot to the rigth or left, then another one in front of that and so on and then after x jumps it jumps back in again so one would get a rough estimate of 27%ish hitrate if just running straight.
 
Not sure if i understand right here or if i'm just confused but you havent really confirmed anything. What if veins do exist and the claim just jumped one spot to the rigth or left, then another one in front of that and so on and then after x jumps it jumps back in again so one would get a rough estimate of 27%ish hitrate if just running straight.

What we do atm is the contrary. We're assuming randomness and do check what comes out. If real data is different, then we would have proven something. If not, then the only thing we can say is that the system does not violate the assumption of randomness.

In the case veins would exist, the data should falsify our assumption, which isn't the case yet. Therefore, you're right that we didn't prove anything. It has however nothing to do if spots do come and go.

If there would be many avas with hit rates as predicted, then we would be able to falsify the assumption of non-randomness. Till now we had the difficulties to calc all the stuff but Immortal gave the correct hint. So we're now ready to go on.
 
Last edited:
Would adding a small coefficient to account for triple bombing fix your model, falkao? The best case in that should still be 21.72%
 
Would adding a small coefficient to account for triple bombing fix your model, falkao? The best case in that should still be 21.72%

I get hit rate 25.97% when measuring on an interval of four bombs. Here's a screenshot of the probability tree on the s/sheet just in case I blundered my way across this figure for no reason
[br]Click to enlarge[/br]
 
I get hit rate 25.97% when measuring on an interval of four bombs.

I have to admit that I don't get exactly what you did, but as a result it looks fine.

Furthermore, I've noticed that there are numerical instabilities. Till now, I've tried to solve for w

2-((l*(1-w))*exp(-l*(1-w)))/(1-exp(-l*(1-w)))-exp(-l*w) - c = 0

where w is the areay weight, l original lambda and c observed hit rate on second drop.

Now, with your input to try out the best case, i.e. w about .8, there is no need to solve the above equation and voila we've got the result.
Moreover, as finds will be in mean .7r away, w would be about .72 in mean.

This would lead to a hit rate of 26.4% for Kul and 25.6% for Ace.

Now Kul is mostly rebombing with a 10-15m distance. Hence his hit rate might correspond more to the .8 case and we do observe 26.66% and predict the same number, whereas Ace is more the .72 case and we do observe 25.1% and predict 25.6%.

I can try to verify what triple bombing does in my model, but yours seems to be easier.
 
I thought I was good at maths but i have no fucking clue what you talking about :eek:
 
I don't know much about stats either.
 
I have to admit that I don't get exactly what you did, but as a result it looks fine.

I predicted the normalised observed probability for a sample set of four bombs using best case example 21.72%

I just double checked my figures by inputting rebomb probabability =0.27, and arrived at 0.27 as a final percentage, so i think I must have done something correct :p

Restatement of assumptions:
27% hitrate for any bomb (this can be correlated to range)
A rebomb will have a probability dependent on it's proximity to the previous bomb - best case possible is 21.72%
Rebomb algorithm (for the purposes of this exercise) considers only the current bomb and the rebomb, i.e. the geometry of chain rebombs is ignored

Result:
rebomb__865717.jpg
 
Big thankyou to both of you +reps all round

Now if i get this right (or more likely completely wrong)
Does your maths show that my hit rate fits in with a random system in EU?
A little laymens terms will help those not so good at statistics ;)

Rgds

Ace
 
I think finder range is meaningless. :)


That is the question, is the claim rate set or are the claims randomly in the ground and claim rate averages in long run.

If it is set rate, then meaningless. If the latter though, then the range should make a difference
 
Now if i get this right (or more likely completely wrong)
Does your maths show that my hit rate fits in with a random system in EU?
A little laymens terms will help those not so good at statistics ;)

The data for rebombing agrees with the theory. Your find rate is close to what we would expect mathematically using simple geometry. If rebombing was a good idea, your hit rate should be greater than 27%. It's only a small difference, but measurable.

Any mining theory that can show a consistently higher hitrate than 27% (range=55m,calypso) is worth investigating

Xen said:
I think finder range is meaningless. :)
What's your % hitrate on CND again? ;p
 
this thread is turning out to be one of the most useful mining threads ever :yay:

sorry for off topic but Ace i predict a uber for you very soon don't ask me why but I got a feeling ;)
 
this thread is turning out to be one of the most useful mining threads ever :yay:

sorry for off topic but Ace i predict a uber for you very soon don't ask me why but I got a feeling ;)

Hehe, maybe that could be the next competition, although i have a feeling it would be the longest running competition in eu history ;)

Rgds

Ace

EDIT: i will also need to summarise everything here in the first post, but how to lol
 
I predicted the normalised observed probability for a sample set of four bombs using best case example 21.72%

great, now I've got it. Btw, we're doing quite the same as with tierup probability. There we did stop after success, here at failure.


I had an additional look to my formula and I've noticed that it is not normalized accordingly.

the probability for success in second drop (rebomb) is

c=1-l*w*exp(-l)/(1-exp(-l*w)),

where l is lambda of the search area and w is the percentage of the area that get's rebomb (intersection of areas).

Overall hit rate with rebomb is then

a*(1+c)/(1+a)


For Ace we have then, assuming

optimal case with w = .2
best hit rate 27%

finder range = 54m
l = 0.30341

hit rate = 25.7%

Kub
finder range = 55m
l = 0.31471
hit rate = 26.5%


As c is now easier, I'm able to get an estimate of w as well

in Ace case we do get w = .45, and Kub w = .14. Hence Ace is in mean rebombing nearly half of the old area, whereas Kub only 14%.

As distances I do get for Ace 48m from the center of the first circle and about 81m for Kub.
 
Does your maths show that my hit rate fits in with a random system in EU?

indeed, your hit rate is perfectly compatible with a random system. The same is valid for Kub. He is not reboming the claim but mostly 10-15m away and also this can be seen from his overall hit rate.

We do have only two fitting observations from double bombing so far. Hence there is still room for surprises. However, as results are very convincing I doubt that there are or at least that they don't have much influence.

Immortal is using an approximation and is getting more or less the same. Hence, with two different approaches leading to the same results is a further hint, that we might be on the right way.

I'll do a summary of the background.

As for results.

It seems as best hit rate would be about 27%. Rebombing does not improve this. Moreover, as many avas do get over the long run a hit rate lower than 27%, they might be mostly rebombing part of an already bombed area.

What we can't conclude from this yet, is if return rate will be also lower. If EU is random then it will.
 
What we can't conclude from this yet, is if return rate will be also lower. If EU is random then it will.

I am still of the firm belief that no matter the hitrate you will get the same tt returns, even though i am a little low at the moment, my last 20k bombs indicate 91% tt return

One easy way to test this is to waste a couple of k's of bombs in the same place and then go and bomb for the next 2ks bombs and record results, and then repeat, this would clearly show if it has an effect on returns but i do not have that amount of peds to waste to test lol

Rgds

Ace
 
Total Bombs: 58808

0 amp, 304 bombs
TT spent this run: 318 (finder & bombs only, untaxed area)
TT returns: 292
% this run: 90%

Total TT Spent: 85124
Total TT Returns: 73340
Total TT % return: 86.16%

Projects Highest single loot (including first 60k spent) = 477pedder

Rgds

Ace
 
Wow thats some bad luck, biggest claim 477ped :)

Good luck
 
I am still of the firm belief that no matter the hitrate you will get the same tt returns, even though i am a little low at the moment, my last 20k bombs indicate 91% tt return

...

I personally do hope the same. All tests I did perform so far didn't however sustain this, but this is no proof, as sample size was too low. If this kind of adjustment exists, then we would have something like a personal loot pool, because expenses must be tracked to adjust loot accordingly. This adjustment might be implemented in quite different ways, not noticeable to a single player.

There are however also those HOF’s in noobs. Data is very vague and hence not very usefully. This would confirm randomness but not exclude personal loot pools.

We will see.
 
There are however also those HOF’s in noobs. Data is very vague and hence not very usefully. This would confirm randomness but not exclude personal loot pools.

We will see.

Those big hofs, and aths as well, i believe come from a seperate loot pool, generated by each activity, mob etc

For example, hunting, based on health, MA probably worked out the most efficient way to kill a mob (ie not armour fap costs), so say it takes 100 ped to kill a mob, player gets 90 ped, ath/big hof loot pool gets 1 ped, MA get 9 ped

This is the safest way for MA to give out the biggies and also explains how noobs get massive ones

Mining probably works similar but based on area. Whether that is server or LA or something else i do not know

Just my two pecs on it, but it does explain most situations. That is not including auction fees: They could be given to the ath pool, or personal loot pool. For me i believe it goes into your personal loot pool

I have no way of proving these, but for me they make the most business sense, it is fail safe and would never put MA in the minus

Rgds

Ace

EDIT: this also explains how some people can get over 100% tt spent in the long run

EDIT2: this would also not require any intervention from MA, especially if it is a % on cost to kill a mob or tt spent in mining

EDIT3: would also explain how you can get 100k pedder on longtooth and 3k pedder on exa's, also why there are more biggies when more people hunt them

EDIT4: also explains why tt returns do not change when there is an ATH!
 
Yes I believe too that the TT return averages out in the end with bigger claims.

Maybe you arent getting any bigger claims because you are doing so well on average allready?
 
model sketch

I'll try to summarize the model we're using so far and here some additional reading that might help:
Spatial randomness
Poisson distribution

Assumptions for mining:

1) There exists a base unit area to which one and only one claim can be assigned.
2) All base units do have the same probability p to get a claim assigned and are independent of each other.

Hence a mining field (we can call it spot) is made up of n = n1*n2 base units.
With a finder of range r we are searching r^2*pi such base units contemporarily.


The probability to get at least one find would correspond then to a binomial distribution with number r^2*pi attempts on p.

If we do assume that the base unit is a 1mx1m square, then we would search about 9503 such units with a finder of range 55m.

To model this with a binomial distribution is quite laborious. If p is very small and n is very large, then the binomial distribution converges to a Poisson distribution with parameter l = n*p, the density of the points in the mining field.
Moreover, the probability to get a certain number of finds in a a subarea of the mining field will be proportional to the probability of a find in the mining field. Hence, we don't need to know n and p but only l and do assume that for the area that we are searching some l' proportional to l exists. Let's use the following notation:

Po(l,k) = l^k*exp(-l)/k!

to denote a Poisson distribution with parameter lambda = l. Po(l,k) is then the probability to get exactly k finds in the search area with density l.


Sry, but all this was necessary to define and describe spatial randomness. Now let's start with our observations.


Solution

The only thing we do know is the probability of at least one find in the search area covered by the finder. Hence, we only know

h = hit rate = P(at least one find in search area) = 1-Po(l',0).


From this we can calculate the density l' for the search area (please note that this is not the whole mining field).

l' = -ln(1-h)

When rebombing (image shows optimal situation with find on perimeter)
[br]Click to enlarge[/br]

part of the old area is searched again (dark) plus a new area (light). Hence, the probability to get at least one find in the second bomb is a combination of the hit rate of those two areas.

Let's call the search area A, the part of the old area O and hence the new area N becomes A-O. This can be also written as

O = A*w,
N = A*(1-w), with a w >= 0 and <=1.

A rebomb will occur number hit rate times, i.e. h times. Hence overall hit rate will be

h' = h(1+h2)/(1+h), where

h = hit rate
h2 = hit rate of second bomb.

Hence the only thing that we need to find is h2.

Immortal uses an approximation here in assuming that only the hit rate of the new area is relevant not accounting for additional finds in the part of the old area O.

Since we know, that we deal with Poisson distributions, we can model this, assuming that area O is not too small. Otherwise the approximation with the Poisson distribution will not work and we might have to switch back to a binomial one.


h2 = 1- P(XO + XN = 0),

where XO and XN are respective random variables for the number of finds in O and N.

As XO and XN are independent we can write this as

h2 = 1-P(XO=0)*P(XN=0)

P(XN=0) = exp(-l'*(1-w))


P(XO=0) is a conditional probability as we already had a find in O. Hence

P(XO=0) = l'*w*exp(-l'*w)/(1-exp(-l'*w))

h2 is then

h2 = 1 - l'*w*exp(-l')/(1-exp(-l'*w))

Examples:

h= 27% with 55m finder
l' = 0.31471
w = 20% (optimal case when double bombing)

then
h2 = 24.7%

overall = 26.5%

w = 30% (mean case)
then
h2 = 23.5%

overall = 26.3%

w = 0% (no rebombing)
then
h2 = 27% (limiting case as lim x/(1-exp(-x)) = 1 for x ->0 )

overall = 27%


w = 100% (double bombing the same first drop)
then
h2 = 14.9% (limiting case)

overall = 24.4%


Comments:
Although it looks easy, it was rather difficult to find the right approach, at least for me. I was trapped by several errors. One was that the search area for the 2nd bomb contains part of the old are with one find and part of a new one. As total area is still the same I’ve thought that this would be the same situation as for the first drop but with one claim missing. This is indeed not the case as proven above, but why? The new area adds information that was not available before and hence we do have a new situation in the 2nd drop. To combine old with new information to get a common probability was the main issue to solve.
 
Last edited:
Mining probably works similar but based on area. Whether that is server or LA or something else i do not know

Just my two pecs on it, but it does explain most situations. That is not including auction fees: They could be given to the ath pool, or personal loot pool. For me i believe it goes into your personal loot pool

I have no way of proving these, but for me they make the most business sense, it is fail safe and would never put MA in the minus
...............

You could be right. That would explain some of the results I send you and falkao. Are you selling on auction or directly to a crafter/reseller?

PS. The areas in mining are serves I think.

Horadrim
 
For example, hunting, based on health, MA probably worked out the most efficient way to kill a mob (ie not armour fap costs), so say it takes 100 ped to kill a mob, player gets 90 ped, ath/big hof loot pool gets 1 ped, MA get 9 ped

When doing the mining payout study, we've noticed that we do come very close to 100% as payout. Only with adding decay we went down to 95%. So it seems as effective cost is only decay. How the rest of expenses is returned is known in terms of a payout distribution. It is unknown however to what extent this distribution applies to a single avatar.

From the limited data we do have, the systems seems to be completely random.

It would be sufficient to find a single avatar, that did get more as he invested, to falsify the assumption that loot is ava based. Although, we do have HOF's in noobs, no one was able to tell what the person did spent before.
 
Last edited:
Total Bombs: 58808

0 amp, 304 bombs
TT spent this run: 318 (finder & bombs only, untaxed area)
TT returns: 335
% this run: 105%

Total TT Spent: 85442
Total TT Returns: 73676
Total TT % return: 86.23%

Projects Highest single loot (including first 60k spent) = 477pedder

Rgds

Ace
 
When doing then mining payout study, we've noticed that we do come very close to 100% as payout. Only with adding decay we went down to 95%. So it seems as effective cost is only decay. How the rest of expenses is returned is known in terms of a payout distribution. It is unknown however to what extent this distribution applies to a single avatar.

From the limited data we do have, the systems seems to be completely random.

It would be sufficient to find a single avatar, that did get more as he invested, to falsify the assumption that loot is ava based. Although, we do have HOF's in noobs, no one was able to tell what the person did spent before.

Or it could be that system is combination of both. Imho for most part loot is avatar based, but there is a certain amount of hofs/aths that are "lucky hits". It's pretty obvious observing tracker data on big mobs like leviathan. Next ath can be predicted within a timeframe of week or so (no guarantee ofc that you will get it), because it correlates strongly with the turnover on that mob.

It would explain those noob hofs as well.
 
Back
Top