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Honest answer on the direction of EU

 
billairboy said:
I wish MA could make more effort on regulation markup on some resources and increase the supply when the markup is a bit too high for a long period of time and at the same time decrease it a bit if the markup is close too zero for a long time. A bit of intervention and regulation and balancing is good for the game I think.
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I'm sorry but no No NO NO!!

MA should be allowing the market to self-regulate, the fact is their balancing team is doing a piss-poor job of it, and certainly much much worse than the market itself was doing back in 2004-2008.

Back then people were crying for exactly the opposite reason ("prices are rising to crazy levels", "if you weren't playing in 2003, or a millionaire, you'll never afford decent gear" etc. etc.), but an inflationary economy is almost always better than a deflationary one.

MA should be pushing the game back towards the inflationary model that existed back in 2008, and the best way to do that is to STOP OVER BALANCING things, stop holding everybodies hand all the time, stop trying to fair and kind and helping old ladies across the road ... bring back the raw, edgy, excessively unbalanced, blatantly unfair, lottery based, but most of all FUN, economy we had once upon a time.

Big, regular 5 digit HoFs, with 75% returns for everybody else, are NOT a bad thing. The game was growing players when things were like that, not losing them. Understand human nature, we are gamblers at heart, our view of risk and opportunity is not evenly balanced, use this to grow the playerbase and one day you might just be able to achieve your original goal of 1 million players spending $1 each per hour, the way you are going now you will soon end up with 1 player spending $1M per hour (on lvl X expl BP) and getting a 90% return, yeah it'll keep MA going, but is that really the only objective these days, keep going till the last guy dies of boredom, it used to feel like the vision was so much more!
 
Ironheart said:
Big, regular 5 digit HoFs, with 75% returns for everybody else, are NOT a bad thing.
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Yeah, they are.

Unlike the real world, where as long as we are alive we are forced to engage the system, this is a fantasy world.

If you dont like the system you can log out.

Crazy swings and blatant unfairness encourage people not to try harder, but to try somewhere else.
 
Just to add to the gambling part, what happened by introducing Explosives:

1. Playing CHIPS (Nanocubes) that you can buy from the casino (Mindark)
2. Tables were created (Explosive BPs I, II, III, IV)
3. You buy chips, place your bets and wait for the result.
4. Since the return is 90% and the materials returned dont have any more value, the house takes a "Playing Fee" of 10%

How in the world would MA explain the need for this system in the game to investigators?

I am sure someone WILL get pissed due to major losses and contact someone to point them to Mindark to review if nothing changed from the last check. Its just a matter of time and amount of losses :)

Just my thoughts about this issue.

True Juan :bandit:
 
Gewitter said:
MA want to get a lot of new players who will earn a little on each other, and then they want to remove the small number of players who earn a lot of money (enough for a good life IRL) on all others. That is correct. Absolutely no reason to give possibility for 100 people to earn $100,000. It is better to divide these $100 thousand to 10 thousand people. Less possibility to withdraw all money (10k of poor players can do less withdrawals, than 100 rich), thereby achieving several goals:
1. Increase the number of poor players (more profit for MA)
2. Increase in turnover (more profit for MA). 1000 of poor players can do bigger turnover than 10 rich players.
3. Increase in deposits (100 x $5-20 deposits instead of 3 x $100-200) with a simultaneous decrease in the probability of withdraw.
4. Reduction in the MU of UL things - this is extremely important in this strategy, as in this case, the money simply will be removed from MU and stay in MA (Your item was TT+1000 a year ago, now it is TT+300, 700 PED just stay in MA)
Overall I think this is genius strategy, it undermines the credibility of 90-95% of the old players, and increases the level of trust of new ones. In this strategy older players should not be taken into account because they have already paid to MA everything they could. MA need to decrease possibilities of withdrawals for them, with decreasing of MU for all 'invested' items. It works.
Maybe you wonder why I write this - as old player. But it seems to me, that this strategy is 100% correct, although it displeases too many old players. Cost to play will be less for new players. But by increasing their quantity, MA will earn more, than they can earn from little quantity of old players.

Generally the rule 'number of players' works for everyone.
It is better to sell 200 units of F-101 than one Terramaster 8.

Think about it. You can think that this is apocalypse, but for me and many others it is a new hope.
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Understand the logic, it all makes sense, but ...
I don't believe the draw for 10000 players to make a little, is a strong as the draw that 100 may make a lot ... it sounds right, but imo doesn't deliver the player numbers or the economic activity that it should.

I'll bet you a penny that if MA changed from the 'fair return loot' of todays game and went back to the 'lottery loot' of old, activity would rise (and hence decay, MA profit, CLD returns etc.)
 
Magyar_Republic said:
Yeah, they are.

Unlike the real world, where as long as we are alive we are forced to engage the system, this is a fantasy world.

If you dont like the system you can log out.

Crazy swings and blatant unfairness encourage people not to try harder, but to try somewhere else.
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Any evidence?
Does the game have more or less activity than in say 2010?

Its hard to say for certain, but to me it seemed that economic activity at the AH, the banks, the forum and p2p trading were all down in 2013 when I returned, from 2010 when I left.
 
Ironheart said:
Any evidence?
Does the game have more or less activity than in say 2010?

Its hard to say for certain, but to me it seemed that economic activity at the AH, the banks, the forum and p2p trading were all down in 2013 when I returned, from 2010 when I left.
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To be fair though there was the small matter of world economic collapse during this period, and MA managed to weather that ok in my opinion. Peoples disposable income over many countries were cut during that period and even to now, we are not in the pre-crash credit led boom that existed before.

I kinda agree with Magyar, people now i think stay around longer than in old loot system.
 
The logical conclusion of a fair loot system is that everyone loses, all the time. Nothing clever there, everyone understands that.

What people instinctively know, but dont often consciously realise, is that an unfair loot system increases everybodys chance of 'winning'. I'm sure someone with probability skills can prove that.

We are not at a perfectly fair state right now, so there are still winners and losers, but we are heading in that direction, not good.

The popularity of the lvl IV explosive BP is directly a result of the lack of opportunity in other areas of the game, and the impact of it is driving all professions closer to the perfectly fair result of 90% return for all.

I argued in another thread, a little while back, that the mining 90% return thing was a myth (just go out and chuck bombs, and you'll eventually end up with 90% TT back), but we are actually heading straight for that outcome now. And when it arrives, mining will be LESS popular than ever.

MA need to wake up, EU needs to be a gamble, or there is no point to it, it needs to have enough imbalance that those with dedication, or intelligence, or good contacts, or powerful friends with uber weapons, or even secret knowledge (some may call them exploits, and no, I dont know of any) can get an edge, or it will wither and die. The fun is in trying to beat the system in whatever way you can, without that, there is nothing.

Explosive BP is a symptom of decline, not just a cause.
 
Ironheart said:
Any evidence?
Does the game have more or less activity than in say 2010?

Its hard to say for certain, but to me it seemed that economic activity at the AH, the banks, the forum and p2p trading were all down in 2013 when I returned, from 2010 when I left.
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MA's own state of the universe report confirms what I am saying.

I wont bother to highlight any passages. If you want to split hairs and waste my time by having to type this reply, then I think you can return the favor by reading the reports yourself.

As for EU needing to be a gamble, I think we all agree there. The question is not whether it should or should not be. The question is of what magnitude should your casual, day to day participant, be subjected to this gamble.

Look. If you have 5,000 players, and they are all whales, that's great until attrition hits, which it will eventually. Folks move on. Without a new, loyal player base that you can ask "So, would you like to take your play to the next level?" and have them buy in, you have a dead product.

This new strategy allows newcomers to actually play, and not leave in disgust after 30 days. This is the exact opposite of how it was in 2010. I had a guild of over 100 people try this game. You know how many stuck around? One. Me.

The rest of the folks would rather blow $200 a month on Perfect World games, because at least they felt like they were getting their moneys worth and not just throwing cash down a black hole. They were wrong. The better value all along has been here. But its all in how you perceive things. MA is trying to manage that perception.

Regards,

- MR
 
bluff_signpost.jpg


Worldwide direction. ;)
 
Out Of Topic

Just want to point out this...

If there's no possibility of gaining something, from playing, would new players be attracted to the game?

If there's no economy to participate in, would new players even want to continue staying in this game?

If staying in the game only makes you bleed peds slowly but surely, and gameplay only involves "you" and the "TT terminal", how long will it take before you burn out and quit (due to the boring game mechanics)?

On Topic

If you ask me...the only "probable" motive that MA has in implementing these recent changes is to facilitate the spending of peds. To make it "easier" for you to use up your peds and reduce their "contingent liability" (as per in their annual report).

Shrapnel in hunting? This is just to make your hunts last longer and with you ending up with even less disposable peds than before it was implemented.

Explosive BP? Caters for the "gambling" players looking to hit high HOFs (without having to pay any MU...plus no "down time"...continuous spending).

And coincidentally, this also affects mining mu and "extinguishes" (almost?) any chance of players looking to "recover from the red" and thereby "incentivising" them to deposit even more.

That's the "feeling" that I'm getting from these recent changes.
 
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sawachika said:
If there's no possibility of gaining something, from playing, would new players be attracted to the game?
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Why do people love to divide everything to black and white? There are still gray and ... green for example. This means that any player found 'green' will be in profit (not forever!). In this game (if you're not a fool), you can make money if you want it. This can be done with the loot system until 2012 or current system. It does not matter.
However, impossible to win only by clicking explosives. This is possible only by chance and for the short time.
Smart player will never play with TT. In the long run it would be like to buy ammo, and using a UL weapon go to hunting session, and then put all the loot in the TT. So what is the point to discuss it? There are many other interesting things in EU, but we should discuss only the general decline MU, I think so. But overall decline MU is good to new players, as it reduces the overpayment for guns, faps or any other things that can not be bought in the TT. This is only important thing for new players, but not the losses sustained by the old players (read: explosive gamblers :) ).
 
OMG people it is NOT gambling......the ONLY thing that makes it gambling is the player and their attitude.

Walking across a road is a gamble.
Waking up in the morning is a gamble.
Shooting a mob is a gamble.
Crafting is a gamble.

MA dont set the price of residue, that is the players.

It is the player gambling NOT PE!

Rgds

Ace
 
Ironheart said:
...
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just a brilliant, brilliant post...


Gewitter said:
...lots of numbers...and things...
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I get what you are saying but I just don't beleive it would provide adequate incentive. I had a disciple who left here after a week when he figured out he makes more money in another game.

You concept relies on gameplay to be the main draw, which we all know it isn't. And how long can people stand there skilling some random bullshit useless profession before their brain tells them "hmm, this is rather pointless really isn't it"...

sawachika said:
Out Of Topic

Just want to point out this......this also affects mining mu and "extinguishes" (almost?) any chance of players looking to "recover from the red" and thereby "incentivising" them to deposit even more.

That's the "feeling" that I'm getting from these recent changes.
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agree with all this
 
If you ask me...the only "probable" motive that MA has in implementing these recent changes is to facilitate the spending of peds. To make it "easier" for you to use up your peds and reduce their "contingent liability" (as per in their annual report).
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Duh. It only makes sense for them to motivate players who are online to spend. Servers cost money to run. Players who spend while on them are 'good for the game' so to speak. Not different now than back in 2006...
* What is the average cost to play EU for an hour? average cost per month?

MindArk's business plan states that we aim for a cost of 1 USD per hour.
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Recent changes cause that 1 usd per hour to actually be lower than that for some, but more than that for others... It's a balancing act.




Shrapnel in hunting? This is just to make your hunts last longer and with you ending up with even less disposable peds than before it was implemented.
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Makes hunts last longer, true, but also makes you end up with less crap - i.e. stuff that may have markup over 100% but that you'd probably TT anyways since the cost to sell it on auction or to others is too much of a damn hassle for the small pec amounts you have across the board on each... and this way you at least get 1% for it instead of just 100% as you would have before.

Explosive BP? Caters for the "gambling" players looking to hit high HOFs (without having to pay any MU...plus no "down time"...continuous spending).
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What's wrong with allowing crafters the ability to actually play the game without having to pay markup? Hunters and Miners have had that ability since the very first TT was first opened. Why should the other major profession in game have to rely on increasing the ped value of other players 100% of the time every single day logged in? Yes, trading still exists in game. It's not like explosives are THE ONLY blueprint left in game. It may seem like it from time to time, but look around. Folks are crafting other things too. If nothing else, look at how many UL grenade launchers are in game and what the eco is on them... Who do you think is looting all of those L grenade launchers - hunters usually... All these explosives give those hunters looting those guns markup while the crafters are only getting lousy 101%-102% on the explosives to load those guns... Crafters have always been 'gamblers' from time to time... but anyone searching for loots of big mobs or digging deeper in to the ground to find loot are too.... How much markup did the hunting HOF guys pay on the ammo used to get those hofs?

And coincidentally, this also affects mining mu and "extinguishes" (almost?) any chance of players looking to "recover from the red" and thereby "incentivising" them to deposit even more.
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This just comes across as you sounding like a miner who is now grumbling a bit since it's harder for you to move your stackables than it was before as demand for them is now a bit lower... (for you that may actually increase your markup as daily auction listings for your stacks will go down, leaving you the ability to later be able to price it with higher markup later when the market is ready? - look to long term gains/losses instead of to daily losses. There are reasons the markup history screens show monthly/yearly and not just daily prices...)

Across the board the price to craft has been way too damn high for several years now (i.e. miners have had it way too damn easy for at least 5 or so years lately as they are draining the peds from other folks in game, nickel and diming the crafters in to not being able to play more often and having to log in only every so often so that they can afford to play instead of logging in daily like the hunters and miners usually do)... In a lot of different chats and forum talk the last 2-4 years I've seen people suggest that mining is the 'best bet' to go with for long term profits as people were 'paying markup on all of the loots' and not just some of them as they were with hunting/crafting. That is now starting to change due to the balancing manager taking notice that one of the professions was unbalanced vs the others, or so it would appear. That is a good thing. It allows more folks to participate in all of the professions instead of unbalancing it to just profit one of them.

I know it's a bit of a bug from a while back, but I still look at the below image and think to myself perhaps some coder who allowed this bug to happen thought that the maximum markup on any item in game should be 127 ped. If that was the case (which I'm sure it's not in reality as the bug is really due to the screen not showing one digit off to the left) this would actually be great for the game as it would allow the average casual gamer the ability to play this game for hours and hours and hours and hours.... which would be great for the game since it would allow many, many, many more people with average incomes to participate in the game and fill up the servers, and make the place seem a lot less like a ghost town - which it really seems like it is nowadays if you visit many planets other than calypso... Recent changes to the game over the last year or two seem to be driving markup down a little to where perhaps this 127 ped max markup may be possible in another 10-15 years? Would that drive out greedy ass whining bastards that only are here to look at markup growing in their pockets from playing while keeping folks in game that are more interested in daily participation in a great online community and 'playing the game' daily? I think perhaps it might... Maybe some dev can look at the below pic and this post and see the potential for the future where millions of players really are online and playing this game daily instead of just a several thousand that keep the game alive today?....
oops.jpg


I know long winded post... but perhaps now you can plan your "future gaming priorities accordingly" as I doubt a dev really will reply to this thread? (maybe they can prove me wrong? ;))
 
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Kitch said:
I get what you are saying but I just don't beleive it would provide adequate incentive. I had a disciple who left here after a week when he figured out he makes more money in another game.

You concept relies on gameplay to be the main draw, which we all know it isn't. And how long can people stand there skilling some random bullshit useless profession before their brain tells them "hmm, this is rather pointless really isn't it"...
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However, I play the varied and interesting game. Someone is playing EU as at casino. Someone do a hard grinding. Each sees and perceives EU differently. People can come and go, but my own game is here. This game is what I had done by myself. This is game which I love.

Player, which leave EU because another game is more profitable - is not a player. He is freelancer which looking for work at home. Not need to play EU for living IRL.

Hard grinding IRL:

1209.jpg


Show me difference with EU :) Yes, I know, beer or whiskey and easychair :)
 
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Gewitter said:
Show me difference with EU :) Yes, I know, beer or whiskey and easychair :)
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You don't know shit, cuz you never ever did any grind.

Tho I show you current state of EU:

naperstki.jpg
 
and here is one of the serious, loyal and heavily invested players...

attachment.php
 
It's highly unlikely we'll get any response to this question, not a definitive answer anyway.
The quessing game is interesting thou, so i might as well add yet another theory:

  1. MA wants to increase the active playerbase. There's many reasons why this is important, and if u think about it it must be the most important goal for them, more important than any other considerations.
  2. MA has figured out there is not enough potential players out there who would have enough time and patience to adapt, to learn something so complex as RCE, become loyal customers and dedicate their time and money to it.

The solution follows inevitably from 1. and 2. It comes in 2 aspects:

A) have to make the learning curve less steep, try to decrease the difference between EU and the average mainstream games out there.
B) have to decrease the average cost to play for the Average Joe. We're talking about a closed economic system here. This inevitably means the most successful players will have to give up part of their profit.

We all know how dangerous both A) and B) are for the RCE, and i'm sure MA realizes this as well, but it seems - in the long term - they have decided it's inevitable to go for this "lesser evil" in order to survive.



That's only a theory ofc, and it's possible i got it all wrong.

Now, what i believe, is that over time RCE genre is bound to gain (relatively) more popularity and strenght. The logic behind this is simple - take for example the cornerstone of the RCE system, it's both ways freely convertible currency. This is more complex, more advanced system than all it's competitors. It's only logical to assume that over time the virtual worlds (and their playerbase) should move towards more complex, more challenging economic models.
The only question is, how long will it take before this happens? Years for sure, most likely decades...
 
Well so far I have heard many plausible theories...

But none make me feel positive at all,

And I still think it's atleast 50% a cock up, ie unexpected/underestimated result.

Also, off topic but, seeing the hunter hof board spammed with shared flute, and the manufacturing board spammed with explosive bp... Just.. I don't like it... somehow
 
Kitch said:
Also, off topic but, seeing the hunter hof board spammed with shared flute, and the manufacturing board spammed with explosive bp... Just.. I don't like it... somehow
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It's not offtopic tbh, it's some strange anomaly.

I mean - they perfectly fucked up hunt and craft for now with shared/shrapnel and explosive BP respectively, but they somehow did stuck with mining still, meanwhile to make Tripple Fuckup Harmony is relatively simple.

Shared Mining Arena. The potential fuckup - people will start use amps, and there will be demand, and resources will go up in MU - but Mindark doesn't need any possibility to profit, just hoffage and decay fest.

So, SMA should be isolated as any event area, and there is only possibility to drop only probes. Excavators not needed, finders should be from TT-only too.

Resources gathered is only crude and lyst. No, fuck it.

Shrapnel.

Fun guaranteed, hoffage, ath, etc. Amount of idiots too.
 
Ironheart said:
Big, regular 5 digit HoFs, with 75% returns for everybody else, are NOT a bad thing. The game was growing players when things were like that, not losing them.
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Got data to support that?

From what I see there are more players wherever I go than ever before.
 
Do guys know know the Rihanna song? 'Just shut up and whine whine whine...' :D
 
Ironheart said:
Big, regular 5 digit HoFs, with 75% returns for everybody else, are NOT a bad thing. The game was growing players when things were like that, not losing them.
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Really? the biggest boost in players that I remember was around the CND introduction in vu8-9 PA was a sea of green dots and the radar would break under the load, it was often impossible to find soc mates on it, you could stand in the new arrivals area and watch player after player starting. And 5 digit hofs happened a few times a year not two or three times a day.

I'll quite happily live with boring loot if once in a while they gave me something that broke the monotony and made me think :yay: but it doesn't happen quite as often as it used to (if at all). No good making it cheaper to play if it's then becomes boring as hell. And brutally honest if MA hadn't made the ped grab after the introduction of L Sib and had kept them at similar / slightly lower prices than the UL stuff they wouldn't have let the game get as expensive as they had and they wouldn't have needed to do half the crap they've done since to counter it.

I can understand the point of view of someone saying crafters need a way to play without requiring hunters or miners but when was the last time a terminal tried to kill a crafter or a hunter/miner could play AFK without the threat of a bot use ban hammer hanging over them? Sure things could be made better but creating a bp that only uses tt materials was not the correct method.
 
All of us have our own personal views what we "accept" whilst playing EU

For me, it goes a bit like this:

Hunted a few hours, had about 5 globals, burned up the shrapnel, was good entertainment. Still lost about $6 but was happy, I felt entertained....no problem can live with that.

Hunted another 4 hours, had about 5 globals, burned up the shrapnel, was good entertainment. Still lost about $7 but was happy, I felt entertained....no problem can live with that.

Hunted another 4 hours, had no globals, burned up the shrapnel, was shit entertainment. Still lost about $60, not happy at all.

Next unknown evening.

If I get a hof, and overall it pulls the loss back to around $5-$8 an evening, then I'll live with that. It's win-win I got some entertainment and paid MA, both happy.

If it's fuck you, until you give us some more money, then I will say fuck you back, and skill my pet for 2 months for next to nothing peds.

MY point. I really don't care what MA changes, as long as they don't take the piss out of their customers. I've always felt like that about EU.

What is clear is that eco is for everyone. That means there's no top end "significant" advantage, not what I can see anyway. Unless MA want to clarify that position.

Rick
 
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