Developer-Notes--3

[Fifth]

If HA and eco matters that much, how do you explain that loot is still pretty much the same when you pay only 60% of the kill costs (with the help of others pre-killing a mob) - across many, many 100s of kills.

peds earned - peds spent = profit (or loss)

Anything that influences either of those matters - it's no rocket surgery

There's not many things that we, players, can directly influence. Eco simply happens to be one of those things. Doesn't mean there's no other and much more powerful factors in play...


Love smart conspiracy theories but the silly ones get boring very fast.

 

[Svarog]

If HA and eco matters that much, how do you explain that loot is still pretty much the same when you pay only 60% of the kill costs (with the help of others pre-killing a mob) - across many, many 100s of kills.

Because eco/efficiency is about spending less, not getting more. Your loot is the same, being eco just helps you get it a bit cheaper.

 

[wizzszz]

Let me get this right, you average 130% mu on all materials, you didnt mention amps so i presume you are not using them? And you say you are losing....lol you have to be the worst miner i have ever heard off!!!!

It wasn't always like that...

But to cover your questions:
No amps, no enhancers, no other fancy stuff - just me and my finder(s) and a couple of 100 PEDs worth of probes.

And i guess skilling unamped to level 36 in both (!) mining professions (no chipping, do i need to mention that?) should give me rough idea how mining works.

I had two diciples (miners) that never needed to deposit following my very simple advice. You are moving after you drop each bomb

Oh, jeez, are you serious? Gotta try that!!

I vary the distance, double bomb when i feel like it, but sure i move in between drops (in case you missed the cynism above)

PS if you are losing, you are either miss calculating your average mu on materials,

i know many many people that cannot get their heads round average mu, ie:

100 ped of lyst @ 105%
10ped of niks @ 200%

lots of people see that as an average of 150%, but as i am sure you are aware the average mu would be 125%

I'm trying to see this not as an insult, but as a helpless attempt to give advice.

I know very well how markup is calculated, and i don't mine areas who give me Lyst / Blau / Oil / you name it... a lot.

I mean, how hard is it? TOTAL_MARKET_VALUE/TOTAL_TT_VALUE = AVERAGE_MARKUP

And yes, 130% was even a low number, in my first years it was easily over 140%.

Or you are using amps that eat up the rest of the markup and mining in taxed area on top. Or you are mining in a way that wasnt intended Or you are just making up numbers. Or you are using lots of enhancers

No taxed areas, amps and enhancers: see above.
And the numbers are not just made up, i didn't even tell about the worst runs...

Yes. Finder (mostly) only influences the depth, not the tt return. If you want bigger eco in mining you can either use tools that decay less, or use finder range enhancers.

I guess i know a bit about mining meanwhile.

How can i get more eco than using just a plain vanilla OF-105? (Which i max easily at my skills, i'd say...)

(and avoid heavily mined areas).

A friend hit a 14k Niksa tower on Oyster (pre-cryengine) directly after i carpeted every square inch of that friggin island... "heavily mined" you say? Hardly any effect imo. However, i play mostly late at night (4am MA time and later), around that time almost no place is "overmined".

 

[wizzszz]

peds earned - peds sent = profit (or loss)

I will not even comment on that, as you have clearly not understood (or read?) my post.

If eco matters, how can you get a better eco than having someone ELSE pay 40% of the kill costs?
This should result in a clear DIFFERENCE to normal loot.

Because eco/efficiency is about spending less, not getting more. Your loot is the same, being eco just helps you get it a bit cheaper.

You, too, missed the point - killing 1000 feffs with a maxed SIB gun... someone ELSE paying 40% of the kill costs.

Yet my loot is the same as if i had killed them alone... despite that IMMENSE boost to my kill costs (read: incredibly eco, way better than a maxed modmerc could ever be)


Has noone of you ever been in a Merry Mayhem support team in the first two years??

 

[dr3w]

I guess i know a bit about mining meanwhile.

How can i get more eco than using just a plain vanilla OF-105? (Which i max easily at my skills, i'd say...)

Decay of finders doesn't change if you're using amps. So, by using amps - you gettin' more eco. Yes-yes, amps have MU. But lvl2s available almost for TT from crafters.

It's ecofagging™, of course - but you GET MORE ECO.

 

[ermik]

If eco matters, how can you get a better eco than having someone ELSE pay 40% of the kill costs?
This should result in a clear DIFFERENCE to normal loot.

You, too, missed the point - killing 1000 feffs with a maxed SIB gun... someone ELSE paying 40% of the kill costs.

Yet my loot is the same as if i had killed them alone... despite that IMMENSE boost to my kill costs (read: incredibly eco, way better than a maxed modmerc could ever be)

Imagine this:

DMG dealt to mob is used when calculating your return, yellow line MISS are lost.

In this scenario, eco would still matter a whole deal since a maxxed gun produces DMG cheaper than an unmaxxed one, while also explaining why your returns were in relation to what you spent in DMG, not how many mobs actually killed.

 

[Ace Flyster]

I'm trying to see this not as an insult, but as a helpless attempt to give advice.

I know very well how markup is calculated, and i don't mine areas who give me Lyst / Blau / Oil / you name it... a lot.

I mean, how hard is it? TOTAL_MARKET_VALUE/TOTAL_TT_VALUE = AVERAGE_MARKUP

And yes, 130% was even a low number, in my first years it was easily over 140%.

Not an insult more for other people, and to be doubly sure, as i said before it still surprises me the number of people that do not get average mu.

As for double bombing, tt returns from my tests (falkoa?) showed very similar results to single bombing, but a marked increase in hit rate.

From the rest of your post, you do not incur other markup costs. I would be intrigued to know your overall tt spent?

Rgds

Ace

 

[Wollongong]

Can't wait for next week...expecting another dev notes


What will they come with this time..? And how will the community respond?

 

[Thark]

PS if you are losing, you are either miss calculating your average mu on materials,

i know many many people that cannot get their heads round average mu, ie:

100 ped of lyst @ 105%
10ped of niks @ 200%

lots of people see that as an average of 150%, but as i am sure you are aware the average mu would be 125%

Hey,

i'm afraid to admit it but i don't get why it's 125% (let alone 150%)! i would always have calculated it to 113.64%. the thinking beeing, 5ped mu from lyst + 10 ped mu from niks is 13.64% of total tt value. right now i can't see how it would be 125% and moreover those 13% seem to make sense in my spreadsheet.

best regards
Thark

 

[Skaffen]

Min Cos Kill

I will not even comment on that, as you have clearly not understood (or read?) my post.

If eco matters, how can you get a better eco than having someone ELSE pay 40% of the kill costs?
This should result in a clear DIFFERENCE to normal loot.



You, too, missed the point - killing 1000 feffs with a maxed SIB gun... someone ELSE paying 40% of the kill costs.

Yet my loot is the same as if i had killed them alone...

Each mob has a minimum cost to kill - loot is a multiplier of this. It makes no difference who does the damage.

 

[ermik]

Each mob has a minimum cost to kill - loot is a multiplier of this. It makes no difference who does the damage.

lets assume you are right.

then when you loot a mob, the system takes a predefined fixed number ( depending on mob, maturity etc ) wich represents the minimum cost to kill.

this number is then combined with a multiplier, but where does this multiplier come from?

People who belive in a personal loot pool say the multiplier comes from a pregenerated table for each ava, regenerated reguarly based on the avatars spending ( or dmg dealt or whatever )

People who belive in Mob loot pools think this multiplier comes from a pregenerated table for each mob, regenerated reguarly based on the total spending on this mob system wide.

People who belive in Server loot pools think this multiplier comes from a pregenerated table for each server, regenerated reguarly based on the total spending on this server.

People who belive in gambling just think its a random number generator.

 

[Ace Flyster]

Hey,

i'm afraid to admit it but i don't get why it's 125% (let alone 150%)! i would always have calculated it to 113.64%. the thinking beeing, 5ped mu from lyst + 10 ped mu from niks is 13.64% of total tt value. right now i can't see how it would be 125% and moreover those 13% seem to make sense in my spreadsheet.

best regards
Thark

Hehe, my maths is shite thats why.....my bad, wrote too quickly.....you are correct

Total tt return = 110
Total tt return including Markup = 125

So average markup = 125/110 = 113.64%

I really should check my maths next time, luckily i have a spreadsheet that works it for me on my runs

Rgds

Ace

 

[Serica]

l...

People who belive in a personal loot pool say the multiplier comes from a pregenerated table for each ava, regenerated reguarly based on the avatars spending ( or dmg dealt or whatever )

People who belive in Mob loot pools think this multiplier comes from a pregenerated table for each mob, regenerated reguarly based on the total spending on this mob system wide.

People who belive in Server loot pools think this multiplier comes from a pregenerated table for each server, regenerated reguarly based on the total spending on this server.

....

I think 'loot function formula' rather than 'loot pool' might be more accurate, and rather than a pre-generated table, it may well be a function with both 'decay' and time as variables. For mob you could substitute bp (for crafting) and mineral (for mining).
And I suspect it's a combination of all 3 functions - like a triple-compound pendulum model in a dynamical system.
I can't find a good pic of a triple model, but Wikipedia does have this double-pendulum one here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:double-compound-pendulum.gif

 

[Ace Flyster]

lets assume you are right.

then when you loot a mob, the system takes a predefined fixed number ( depending on mob, maturity etc ) wich represents the minimum cost to kill.

this number is then combined with a multiplier, but where does this multiplier come from?

People who belive in a personal loot pool say the multiplier comes from a pregenerated table for each ava, regenerated reguarly based on the avatars spending ( or dmg dealt or whatever )

People who belive in Mob loot pools think this multiplier comes from a pregenerated table for each mob, regenerated reguarly based on the total spending on this mob system wide.

People who belive in Server loot pools think this multiplier comes from a pregenerated table for each server, regenerated reguarly based on the total spending on this server.

People who belive in gambling just think its a random number generator.

Technically there is no need for a loot pool at all

Just make a random generator when looting mob, based on health and least cost to kill

Rgds

Ace

 

[Pyhä Antero]

Just make a random generator when looting mob, based on health and least cost to kill

But who pays the bill?

 

[Svarog]

People who belive in Mob loot pools think this multiplier comes from a pregenerated table for each mob, regenerated reguarly based on the total spending on this mob system wide.

I believe in mob loot pools but don't believe in multipliers - if it was the case, the easiest way to hof would be to let the mob fully regen a few dozen times before killing it. All noobs who do revive-kills would global daily.

I believe that the loot doesn't depend on who and how killed the mob, only on the state of the mob's lootpool at the moment (here is my rough idea of its mechanics).

 

[Doer]

lets assume you are right.

then when you loot a mob, the system takes a predefined fixed number ( depending on mob, maturity etc ) wich represents the minimum cost to kill.

this number is then combined with a multiplier, but where does this multiplier come from?

People who belive in a personal loot pool say the multiplier comes from a pregenerated table for each ava, regenerated reguarly based on the avatars spending ( or dmg dealt or whatever )

People who belive in Mob loot pools think this multiplier comes from a pregenerated table for each mob, regenerated reguarly based on the total spending on this mob system wide.

People who belive in Server loot pools think this multiplier comes from a pregenerated table for each server, regenerated reguarly based on the total spending on this server.

People who belive in gambling just think its a random number generator.

I agree with Serica: that's not what people who believe in a "personal loot pool" assert at all. A personal loot pool means that the table is not pregenerated, but adjusted dynamically according to past losses and output of the avatar. That's clearly the concept of "personal loot pool" that the dev note dismissed, not a pregenerated or preinitialized function that's unique for every avatar.


Also, lol at creative math.

 

[Ace Flyster]

But who pays the bill?

You pay the bill by killing it....heard of decay????

Rgds

Ace

 

[wizzszz]

Each mob has a minimum cost to kill - loot is a multiplier of this. It makes no difference who does the damage.

If that is true, should the return not be significantly higher when somone else prekills the mob (and subsequently has NO loot from all the mobs?)

If loot depends on kill costs (100%), i should have received loot for the damage we ALL dealt (me + 2 others) - but my loot was what i'd expect for the ammo i've spent.

Imagine this:

DMG dealt to mob is used when calculating your return, yellow line MISS are lost.

In this scenario, eco would still matter a whole deal since a maxxed gun produces DMG cheaper than an unmaxxed one, while also explaining why your returns were in relation to what you spent in DMG, not how many mobs actually killed.

Eco will still matter, yes, but that was not the point i was trying to make.


If DMG determines your loot, where is the loot for the damage my helpers have dealt?

MA simply keeps their share? And this is something you think the swedish authorities would deem fair?

 

[Pyhä Antero]

You pay the bill by killing it....heard of decay????

Rgds

Ace

Yes, but where does money come from? You said that random generator makes the loot and there's no need for a loot pool. How does MA keep track that they aren't loosing? Or do they take a loan if this random generator gives something out of balance? So, yes my point being: In business there's always a need to keep a track of income and expenses. Which is easily done by loot pools.

 

[Ace Flyster]

Yes, but where does money come from? You said that random generator makes the loot and there's no need for a loot pool. How does MA keep track that they aren't loosing? Or do they take a loan if this random generator gives something out of balance? So, yes my point being: In business there's always a need to keep a track of income and expenses. Which is easily done by loot pools.

All i said was "technically" there doesnt need to be a loot pool, not that there isnt one

Rgds

Ace

 

[wizzszz]

Not an insult more for other people, and to be doubly sure, as i said before it still surprises me the number of people that do not get average mu.

As for double bombing, tt returns from my tests (falkoa?) showed very similar results to single bombing, but a marked increase in hit rate.

From the rest of your post, you do not incur other markup costs. I would be intrigued to know your overall tt spent?

Rgds

Ace

I don't think double bombing (or not) has much effect, i just mentioned it for the sake of completeness.

What other markup costs do you mean?

I pay decay on Finder (plus markup, when i use the TK320, but i only use this particular finder when i know there is i.e. Ruga or Devils Tail or something that makes up for the markup i pay on the finder), decay of the excavator (Genesis Star Earth Excavator ME/03, slow but cheap, not worth mentioning in the totals) and, before i sell the ores/enmatters, i refine them, another tiny amount not worth mentioning.

When i go out mining, i consider finder decay & excavator decay lost and do not even include them in my calculations.


Not sure what you mean by "overall TT"...
I don't have my long term logs anymore, and atm, the game pisses me off too much to spend time on a detailed analysis - i don't deposit (not since 2nd MM), so the total of my inventory + PED card directly reflects my success in mining, and with the markup i generate i should not be losing money.

But i do.

And now MA tells me that we lose money because we are "inefficient", and i wonder what's so incredibly inefficient in my mining that i manage to get 40% TT returns on smaller runs and haven't globalled for ages...

And on a sidenote:
I have never chipped in, so i guess you need a shitload of bombs skilling up both mining professions to level 36 (unamped). All my skills are available on entropedia, too, just in case some smartypants writes "unbalanced skills" in the next dev notes...

 

[ermik]

I agree with Serica: that's not what people who believe in a "personal loot pool" assert at all. A personal loot pool means that the table is not pregenerated, but adjusted dynamically according to past losses and output of the avatar. That's clearly the concept of "personal loot pool" that the dev note dismissed, not a pregenerated or preinitialized function that's unique for every avatar.


Also, lol at creative math.

isnt that exactly what a pregenerated table of multipliers would do if the table gets regenerated with a fixed time interval, or perhaps after a certain numer of loot events?

with pregenrated i dont mean generated years ago, but often enough to enable peoples changes in behaviour and playstyle to go through rather quickly.

 

[Ace Flyster]

I don't think double bombing (or not) has much effect, i just mentioned it for the sake of completeness.

What other markup costs do you mean?

I pay decay on Finder (plus markup, when i use the TK320, but i only use this particular finder when i know there is i.e. Ruga or Devils Tail or something that makes up for the markup i pay on the finder), decay of the excavator (Genesis Star Earth Excavator ME/03, slow but cheap, not worth mentioning in the totals) and, before i sell the ores/enmatters, i refine them, another tiny amount not worth mentioning.

When i go out mining, i consider finder decay & excavator decay lost and do not even include them in my calculations.


Not sure what you mean by "overall TT"...
I don't have my long term logs anymore, and the game pisses me too much off atm to spend time on a detailed analysis - i don't deposit (not since 2nd MM), so the total of my inventory + PED card directly reflects my success in mining, and with the markup i generate i should not be losing money.

But i do.

And now MA tells me that we lose money because we are "inefficient", and i wonder what's so incredibly inefficient in my mining that i manage to get 40% TT returns on smaller runs and haven't globalled for ages...

From the sound of it you spend bugger all on mu, a shame you don't have logs of your tt returns, without that not really worth talking about it anymore. Proof is in the pudding so they say

I have not come across anyone yet who has provided proof that they lose with the markup you are getting

There is masses of proof for showing people do profit through mining, and with a lot less average markup than you are getting

But as i said, no logs no point in continuing the discussion

Rgds

Ace

 

[wizzszz]

From the sound of it you spend bugger all on mu, a shame you don't have logs of your tt returns, without that not really worth talking about it anymore. Proof is in the pudding so they say

Do you think i am lying?

The proof is the total TT of my account.

Wanna guess what's left of the AS-129 & Cause i sold a couple of months ago?

I have not come across anyone yet who has provided proof that they lose with the markup you are getting

There is masses of proof for showing people do profit through mining, and with a lot less average markup than you are getting

Ace, seriously, i haven't even told the worst and you already squirm with pain.



Wanna hear about my blood moss mining runs, with 15%-20% TT return and 800% average markup?

I didn't even mention them because i still profited (back then) - but that you try to wipe that away with "no proof" is maybe fine with someone who just made his forum account for loot whining - i have never made a loot whining thread, and mentioned my returns only to underpin my argument that they DID track TT returns in the past and that the system has changed.

 

[Ace Flyster]

Do you think i am lying?

The proof is the total TT of my account.

Wanna guess what's left of the AS-129 & Cause i sold a couple of months ago?



Ace, seriously, i haven't even told the worst and you already squirm with pain.



Wanna hear about my blood moss mining runs, with 15%-20% TT return and 800% average markup?

I didn't even mention them because i still profited (back then) - but that you try to wipe that away with "no proof" is maybe fine with someone who just made his forum account for loot whining - i have never made a loot whining thread, and mentioned my returns only to underpin my argument that they DID track TT returns in the past and that the system has changed.

As i say without logs, not a lot of point in continuing

Wish you the best in PE

Rgds

Ace

 

[Pyhä Antero]

As i say without logs, not a lot of point in continuing

Not very good reasoning.

 

[wizzszz]

As i say without logs, not a lot of point in continuing

Looks like you just wimped out...

No wonder, 2 years ago i was chiming in with the "can't lose PEDs in planetside unamped mining" crowd, and have no explanation for what's going on now either. And you ran out of explanation attempts already, too.


You do not have to believe me, but you might keep in mind that i have no reason to exaggerate or just plain lie about my returns, because i didn't deposit the money i am losing now.
And i am known (infamous, lol) for pretty much everything here on the forum, but have never been called "attention seeking".


I might start my own mining log thread if i can be arsed to log in again.
(is that the kind of "proof" you are looking for, many small (and equally prone to being faked) numbers in a thread?)

Will the proof change anything? You will just sit there, stare at the numbers and still have no better explanation. There are no additional information hidden somewhere, maybe 10 or 20 PED ammo when i mine in areas with aggressive mobs, which i consider lost anyway (loot always less than ammo)

Maybe the rumours are true and this will trigger my long overdue first tower.

Wish you the best in PE

Ty, nonetheless

 

[Ace Flyster]

Looks like you just wimped out...

No wonder, 2 years ago i was chiming in with the "can't lose PEDs in planetside unamped mining" crowd, and have no explanation for what's going on now either. And you ran out of explanation attempts already, too.


You do not have to believe me, but you might keep in mind that i have no reason to exaggerate or just plain lie about my returns, because i didn't deposit the money i am losing now.
And i am know for pretty much everything here on the forum, but have never been called "attention seeking".


I might start my own mining log thread if i can be arsed to log in again.
(is that the kind of "proof" you are looking for, many small (and equally prone to being faked) numbers in a thread?)

Maybe the rumours are true and this will trigger my long overdue first tower.



Ty, nonetheless

A log would be good, and always interesting. I am not calling you a liar, what i am saying is that there is a possibility that you are somehow missing something. But either way a log would clear that up......and i have no reason to suspect you would tweak numbers to suit your claims.

I myself with my log could have tweaked numbers, but alas i did not. And i suppose every log on mining subforum could have been tweaked as well, to show 90%+returns.

Its just that there is not one log to show what you are saying....ever....in PE. So i presume you understand my hesitation at your what are saying?

Rgds

Ace

 

[Joat]

Imo, every avatar has same progress to loot-peaks, it's up to each and everyone
to learn what controls this and when these comes, and how to use this.

EU don't have a system that track returns, but do we have a system that tracks
what we build up loot with?, Yes, I think so, and it's a ongoing process and progress,
which also reset values in a ongoing progress in the loot cycle.
If we fail to do most efficient interactions against a certain objekt, we'll also fail to get
a better boost, or "reward" or whatever people want to call them, when it's time
for one of those.
This is probably the reason why some of those who had a longer break got a good
boosted loot when they return, since they probably toke the break when they had
bad loot for some time, and when they come back, their progress is passing a
certain point of their lootcycle.
I often see people say they had really bad loot for some time and got a nice loot
after this as a kind of compensation for this , but most don't look at it the
oposite way, the system getting closer to this point in the loot progress and cycle
where it's time for a boosted loot, and therefor also lower averge loot until that point
in loot cycle for boosted loot comes...
And no, the values that control this progress in the loot cycle isn't based on what we
spend, but on what we are as avatars...

I think we can look at loot in two parts, getting a minimum of losses over long term,
and getting a good boost thru' globals and minins, and nice items.
For some of those who really work hard to follow first part, rarely experience the
second part, and for some of those who pay and play really uneco rarely experience
first part, but can experience second part.
Then we have a small group, that do experience both parts, and they are the ones
who truely will be succesful in EU, imo...