Developer-Notes #12 - Loot-2.0 Follow-Up

[Ime]

Avarage on the young-old my killcost would be 9 ped and losing 1.25 ped yields a 14% worse TT return then pre 2.0.

So either there are 14% more TT loot in a hof pile, basicly making the game totaly unplayable for the 98% since the hard grinders will pick up most hofs or MAs returns are bugged and components in ...

Funny (or not) is that i have 14% less return tt wise so far

 

[StarGlider]

I assume the general concept was and still is the same: without multipliers your returns will be considerably lower than the average returns (so the multipliers can build up).

So is not about new or old loot system; in a system where you have an average and you have peaks (multipliers) you automatically must also have drops to compensate for said peaks.

Your not taking into account the average returns. On my example, I would have needed a 250 ped global, just to break even. Another run, 500 ped if no global appears etc etc. Yea, I could get lucky and loot an uber, but it's highly unlikely, and if you do get it, it's barely covering the cost as a whole.

Ignore the peaks and lows, what we want is stability. The lows should not give barely 50% returns 90% of the time. The highs should be 95% or there about, the 5% make the globals, and should not be the 50%.
The way your replying to every post, you think were all after over 100% tt returns, well, just to fill you in, the vast majority of us, are not. We are looking for stable returns. Comprehend?

The returns are simply not right. I'm not sure why your posting in every thread, like you know everything is hunky dory. I suggest, you get in the game, your defending to the death, and try it for yourself, also record it, so we can see what your actually getting, or stream it.

 

[DoA]

Your not taking into account the average returns. On my example, I would have needed a 250 ped global, just to break even. Another run, 500 ped if no global appears etc etc. Yea, I could get lucky and loot an uber, but it's highly unlikely, and if you do get it, it's barely covering the cost as a whole.

Ignore the peaks and lows, what we want is stability. The lows should not give barely 50% returns. The highs should be 95% or there about, the 5% make the globals, and should not be the 50%.
The way your replying to every post, you think were all after over 100% tt returns, well, just to fill you in, the vast majority of us, are not. Were after stable returns. Comprehend?

The returns are simply not right. I'm not sure why your posting in every thread, like you know everything is hunky dory. I suggest, you get in the game, your defending to the death, and try it for yourself, also record it, so we can see what your actually getting, or stream it.

Wow... that's quite a bit of negativity in here... but no worries, it's ok, it helps to destress.

Surprisingly for you though, I would also love more stability... actually give me a fixed 95% return rate or whatever and no variation and I'll be the happiest girl in the game since I'm not after profit, but just about making my money last as much as possible. So yeah, I'm definitely not combating you saying that we need more stability and less volatility. The problem is that this is not the current reality, so drawing conclusions about loot ups and downs after just 30 mobs is hilarious at best. Sure, the returns may be bugged, but you can't draw these conclusions based on such a small sample - is like saying a dice is rigged because after throwing it 30 times it never landed on "6".

And why posting in every thread... I already explained that a few times... I'm at work (but I don't have much to work - lol), I'm sweating in game and when #cyrene chat is dead I try to find ways to entertain me; forums are such a place... so I can say I post out of boredom. Also, at my itsy bitsy tiny level I am playing the game and tracking everything I do; if you're bored at any time feel free to read my log.

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

I assume the general concept was and still is the same: without multipliers your returns will be considerably lower than the average returns (so the multipliers can build up).

So is not about new or old loot system; in a system where you have an average and you have peaks (multipliers) you automatically must also have drops to compensate for said peaks.

Just stop assuming anything (or at least littering forum with your replies to almost any thread...).

Instead go and do some serious amount of hunting like some of us here did already in 'loot 2.0'.

Sweating and killing puny mobs does not make you EU expert so don't give advises and say how things work until you acquire some actual knowledge...

 

[StarGlider]

I'm not trying to be negative at you.

But you keep repeating the same over and over.

I don't care for those who think 30 mobs is not enough, 30 mobs with the loot the way it is, was 29 mobs to many in my honest opinion. And if 30 mobs is not enough to see this so called improved loot, well, tell me what is (for a high level'ish mob like Osseocollum).

Edit
That's not to mention my other hunts that was equally dire, to many to mention.
In fact, since this improved loot came out, my only profit was 2 ped from whipping 80 merps for the daily tokens.

 

[DoA]

Just stop assuming anything (or at least littering forum with your replies to almost any thread...).

Instead go and do some serious amount of hunting like some of us here did already in 'loot 2.0'.

Sweating and killing puny mobs does not make you EU expert so don't give advises and say how things work until you acquire some actual knowledge...

Not all theories must be based on empirical evidence (although sure, it's always best when they are), most of them could be developed based on logic or common sense or observing the evidence provided by other people.

And if you feel I'm posting too much, feel free to ignore or report me; otherwise, I'm sorry, but I simply don't care if you like or dislike what or how much I'm posting. I do it for my own entertainment, not yours. No offense.

 

[DoA]

I don't care for those who think 30 mobs is not enough, 30 mobs with the loot the way it is, was 29 mobs to many in my honest opinion. And if 30 mobs is not enough to see this so called improved loot, well, tell me what is (for a high level'ish mob like Osseocollum.

I repeat things because people seem to not understand them.

From a statistic POV it doesn't matter if a mob has 10 hp or 1,000,000 hp.

One mob is still one event, one roll of the dice.

If you want to have statistically relevant results you need a statistically relevant sample, and that's a number of events (in our case number of kills), no matter if we talk about 10 hp or 1,000,000 hp mobs.

Now I understand, you feel that if you spent 500 PEDs hunting fifty 10 PED mobs your observations should weight more than in the case of someone that spent 5 PEDs hunting a 10 PEC mob. Well, sadly (or not), that's simply not true.

And I don't need to play the game or shoot said mobs myself to understand this; heck I don't even need to know anything about the game... one event is still one event... it's just statistics 101... a good to take course for everyone, not just for the game.

 

[StarGlider]

To quote your dice roll theory.
1 roll of the dice gives a 1 in 6 chance to win.
So we take these 30 mobs, as a dice roll.

Roll the dice and get :

1 = Loot less than 10%
2 = Loot less than 25%
3 = Loot less than 50%
4 = Loot less than 75%
5 = Loot less than 95%
6 = Loot more than 95% or greater.

In 30 rolls, I would imagine I would roll a few 6 or a few 5. So, going by the dice theory, would you expect after 30 rolls, not 1 of them would be a 5 or a 6?
If your answer is no, then lets go by the other hunt's I've done, not to mention the majority of people playing.
Is it still a no?
If your answer is yes, then clearly something is broken in Entropia.

Edit
If your happy spending 5 ped for an hours play, good on you. Some of us have levelled up, and do not want to shoot a gun, that makes 5 ped last an hour.

Also to re-adjust my examples of dice rolls for the statistician.

 

[Antrace]

to me is all clear what MA says, but "The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value) "


some ppl see it like u get more loot if u have high efficiency but in max range than 7% and i dont agree;

i see it like if u are not eco you spend more to kill the same mob and you have higher loot value (up to 7%) but less overall return in %(for example says 92%).

and more i though that the new loot system would have increased the average return for 98% of players, and this means less volatility, less mobs to kill in the way that also the normal hunter (not the 6h + grinders) can do a 1h run and have a average and stable return and proportional to his own gear. But atm it doesnt look like this.

 

[Divinity]

Suzy i have to disagree with you on this one. Post 2.0 based on 2636 kills the avg return with 3.1 eco ( minimum healing and around 1.6% armor cost) has been 96.54% tt.

Now since all loot was logged individually if i take a sample out of it of 30 mobs consecutively, it went as low as 26.32%. There might have been lower but i just took a sample which looked lowest to me.

Also you don't need a single hof to make up for a string of bad mobs. You can easily get over it on a high wave with multiple global/hofs.

I would suggest doing 2-3k mobs, ideally if you are hesitant on how this is behaving i prefer to check with 4-5 peds/mob to see if there is actually anything wrong with the system or just plain old speculation.

 

[DoA]

In 30 rolls, I would imagine I would roll a few 6 or a few 5. So, going by the dice theory, would you expect after 30 rolls, not 1 of them would be a 5 or a 6?

I wouldn't expect it, but I wouldn't be surprised either.

A certain variance over low samples is very possible.

You can read quite a good explanations here using the chi-square statistic approach.

If after that you'll still be convinced that you're right, I'm just giving up, because it's obvious that we're looking at things completely different.

Suzy i have to disagree with you on this one. Post 2.0 based on 2636 kills the avg return with 3.1 eco ( minimum healing and around 1.6% armor cost) has been 96.54% tt.

Now since all loot was logged individually if i take a sample out of it of 30 mobs consecutively, it went as low as 26.32%. There might have been lower but i just took a sample which looked lowest to me.

Also you don't need a single hof to make up for a string of bad mobs. You can easily get over it on a high wave with multiple global/hofs.

I would suggest doing 2-3k mobs, ideally if you are hesitant on how this is behaving i prefer to check with 4-5 peds/mob to see if there is actually anything wrong with the system or just plain old speculation.

That exactly.

See, someone that, unlike me, doesn't just sweat, but actually hunts and spends money.

 

[Xen]

Actually, that explains it very well.

Sure, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but personally I disregard any opinion not based on a statistically relevant sample.

LOL, such as yours?

 

[StarGlider]

The waves have supposedly been removed Deth.

Higher number of kills count for nothing, if all the high end mobs are paying out roughly 50% or lower to kill.

Do I sit down and try later, expecting the wave (which MA have said they have removed) to come?

I'm sorry, but after 10 or so hunts since loot 2 came along, loot has got progressively worse, it's as simple as that.
So much so I've not bothered logging back in again, just to lose some more.

Loot 2 then, as you say, is for the people who have hour's on hand, to be able to grind, to get loot back to 95%. Not everyone can do that. Basically, your arguing the point that waves come and go, so ride along with it.
This was supposed to have been removed, and also that loot has not improved over 1 mob, but an estimated 1 in a very large quantity of mobs. That is just BS if it is true.

 

[Wisdom]

[*]The largest components by far in loot value calculations are costs, such as weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc.

Does that mean that all the efficiency rings (one of which is rumored to have sold for 350k), scopes, lasers, weapons, mod viceroy and EST armors, easter eggs, stim-X pills etc. are for naught?

 

[Erza]

In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot. There is no inherent “kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time.



That is nice to read MA since there is a lot of talking about having to play hours and hours before you could see any positive results and that's a no go for me

 

[Divinity]

The waves have supposedly been removed Deth.

Higher number of kills count for nothing, if all the mobs are paying out roughly 50% or lower to kill.

Do I sit down and try later, expecting the wave (which MA have said they have removed) to come?

I'm sorry, but after 10 or so hunts since loot 2 came along, loot has got progressively worse, it's as simple as that.
So much so I've not bothered logging back in again, just to lose some more.

Donno Suzy but from what i have read, item wave loots has been removed. That too supposedly, we will come to know for sure once the eomons come. Also the waves I am referring to is more a personal multiplier (not personal loot pool though) which i believe is what over the long run gets your avatar back to mean position from standard deviations. This wave has nothing to do with system and as such there is no need for waiting. Also this is conjecture at best on my end so i cannot really state it with any empirical evidence of my own.

To be fair and honest, the sample even in my data is too low and could very well be a peak and things could go horribly bad going forward, which is why i am not coming to a conclusion yet.

I'll make you an offer though, how about we agree on a 1000 mob test with me funding the loss if it is anything below 90% tt return. It would obviously be a 4-5 ped mob and perhaps i can help you with gear as well to make it more eco ( i donno what gear you are using but i am assuming its not very economic/efficient).

Let me know if that works and i am game for the experiment . More fun to know and less lossy for me am sure then me burning up on EP IV lol

 

[Iceman2003]

Does that mean that all the efficiency rings (one of which is rumored to have sold for 350k), scopes, lasers, weapons, mod viceroy and EST armors, easter eggs, stim-X pills etc. are for naught?

Check selling thread At least 3 summer ring 2016 selling threads, 2 ares perf rings. Joda was trying to sell his own way before 2.0 update was made. Mabey they were know more than us?

 

[Xen]

This post has just left me more confused than before. Maybe not being able to figure out the system is what they want...

 

[StarGlider]

Just rep'ed you, for an intelligent reply.

My equipment for the Oss was

Mod LR53 with 8 tiers of DMG enhancers and a 106, 2 laser and 1 scope (again, forget the names) (of which 3 enh broke).
Shadow with def and eco buffs equally spread, with 5b plates.
Adj SK80 with heal and eco enhancer's equally spread at tier 6.

Mob was half dead by the time it reached me.

No buffs, as I don't have the rings, but was using a 20 (I think it is) plus health ring, and a top of the line speed ring (forget the names as I rarely look at them).

Edit
Thanks for the offer to pay my losses over 1k ped run, but don't want to drain your ped card

Edit 2
Forgot about the 5b's

 

[DoA]

I'll make you an offer though, how about we agree on a 1000 mob test with me funding the loss if it is anything below 90% tt return. It would obviously be a 4-5 ped mob and perhaps i can help you with gear as well to make it more eco ( i donno what gear you are using but i am assuming its not very economic/efficient).

Let me know if that works and i am game for the experiment . More fun to know and less lossy for me am sure then me burning up on EP IV lol

May I benefit of the same offer? And not even a 4-5 ped mob, just a 40 pec mob (unless you would prefer a 10,000 mobs test then ).

 

[Divinity]

Does that mean that all the efficiency rings (one of which is rumored to have sold for 350k), scopes, lasers, weapons, mod viceroy and EST armors, easter eggs, stim-X pills etc. are for naught?

On the contrary, wont that mean that those matter quite a bit. As your weapon decay and ammo and everything else gets reduced by the usage of the eco stuff. Not sure if i am reading it wrong or how you came to this conclusion?

Check selling thread At least 3 summer ring 2016 selling threads, 2 ares perf rings. Joda was trying to sell his own way before 2.0 update was made. Mabey they were know more than us?

Please do not spread panic with wrong information. Firstly joda is from what i know selling linzey's ring (my assumption) and the reason for that is linzey bought the easter ring ( how i know, cause it was bought from AH and was mine) before the update. So by your very logic then those rings should be super useful as the inner circle is buying. The other summer rings are being sold for 1.5-2x the price they were bought at and most of them are sold already.

Just rep'ed you, for an intelligent reply.

My equipment for the Oss was

Mod LR53 with 8 tiers of DMG enhancers and a 106, 2 laser and 1 scope (again, forget the names) (of which 3 enh broke).
Shadow with def and eco buffs equally spread.
Adj SK80 with heal and eco enhancer's equally spread at tier 6.

Mob was half dead by the time it reached me.

No buffs, as I don't have the rings, but was using a 20 (I think it is) plus health ring, and a top of the line speed ring (forget the names as I rarely look at them).

Edit
Thanks for the offer to pay my losses over 1k ped run, but don't want to drain your ped card

Thanks for the rep and have mine as well for being as sweet as you are .

Btw, the run would be a 4-5k peds run as i said over 1000 mobs and if shit hits the fan and you manage to get 50% returns on it, i still lose only 2k peds or so which is less then 30 mins of EP IV clicking for me. My ped card has sustained massive damage from my own tilting on EP IV , so this is peanuts in comparison and a gamble i would happily make for a person i have known over the years

May I benefit of the same offer? And not even a 4-5 ped mob, just a 40 pec mob (unless you would prefer a 10,000 mobs test then ).

DoA, I would make the same offer to you as well, however only if u have the levels to take on 2-4 ped mobs. Maxed on adj maddox , are u?? Let me know and we can perhaps do an open test for the forum.

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

I'll make you an offer though, how about we agree on a 1000 mob test with me funding the loss if it is anything below 90% tt return. It would obviously be a 4-5 ped mob and perhaps i can help you with gear as well to make it more eco ( i donno what gear you are using but i am assuming its not very economic/efficient).

Let me know if that works and i am game for the experiment . More fun to know and less lossy for me am sure then me burning up on EP IV lol

May I benefit of the same offer? And not even a 4-5 ped mob, just a 40 pec mob (unless you would prefer a 10,000 mobs test then ).

I knew you were full of dung.... now you proved this by asking for PED....

[...]


My five golden rules (pretty much the same thing as above, just in different words)

2. Don’t accept any gifts (neither in RL$, PEDs or items), provide any paid services or generally get involved in any group activities with other people.

[...]

 

[DoA]

DoA, I would make the same offer to you as well, however only if u have the levels to take on 2-4 ped mobs. Maxed on adj maddox , are u?? Let me know and we can perhaps do an open test for the forum.

Bad luck for me then, I have neither the skills or the gear for that.

So I was just doing my tests on a 100 HP mob; now sure, I will continue them nevertheless with the most decent eco affordable for me (65.6% eco, 2.981 DPP- Ares Ring (L) not included in math) and I sure do track everything I do, just that it would have been nice to have a safety net - lol.

 

[DoA]

I knew you were full of dung.... now you proved this by asking for PED....

Asking for PED... LOL... it was about an experiment... but whatever... not like I need, want or care about your approval.

 

[Piotr]

30096 peds spent = 2257 peds minus in 2.0. Last 2 amps that I did because of ppl posting here blah blah blah hunt more 2.0 is good... ended with 3.47k bck from 4.6k spent. And they just posted the what matters most is cost (aka dpp n additional costs) so im sticking to either too volatile or too bugged system atm. I hope for the best for 2morrow.
As for item waves being removed, im just laughing, from pvp mining it can be easily seen waves are not removed at all, just "hidden" a little better.
And as for DoA: it annoys me too that in every thread to read every second post to be yours, without actual longterm knowledge to back it up or just because u think u know why most ppl playin/supposed to play here.

 

[messi91]

I don't care for those who think 30 mobs is not enough, 30 mobs with the loot the way it is, was 29 mobs to many in my honest opinion. And if 30 mobs is not enough to see this so called improved loot, well, tell me what is (for a high level'ish mob like Osseocollum).

I dare to say 30000 mobs is not enough but I guess most of us play a different EU and this is one reason everyone loves it so much I guess.Freedom to believe what you want
I will collect information over the next 3 months and I hope I can draw some conclusions

 

[Antrace]

Donno Suzy but from what i have read, item wave loots has been removed. That too supposedly, we will come to know for sure once the eomons come. Also the waves I am referring to is more a personal multiplier (not personal loot pool though) which i believe is what over the long run gets your avatar back to mean position from standard deviations. This wave has nothing to do with system and as such there is no need for waiting. Also this is conjecture at best on my end so i cannot really state it with any empirical evidence of my own.

To be fair and honest, the sample even in my data is too low and could very well be a peak and things could go horribly bad going forward, which is why i am not coming to a conclusion yet.

I'll make you an offer though, how about we agree on a 1000 mob test with me funding the loss if it is anything below 90% tt return. It would obviously be a 4-5 ped mob and perhaps i can help you with gear as well to make it more eco ( i donno what gear you are using but i am assuming its not very economic/efficient).

Let me know if that works and i am game for the experiment . More fun to know and less lossy for me am sure then me burning up on EP IV lol

i agree with every your post, and this one make me happy to see your great attitude to help a friend + rep for this

 

[Antrace]

In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot. There is no inherent “kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time.



That is nice to read MA since there is a lot of talking about having to play hours and hours before you could see any positive results and that's a no go for me

i read some post last days and some players believed that faster you kill a mob better the loot is. so i think MA is referring to this timer not to the personal play time.

i think they have setted a optimal cost to kill for each mob and closer you are better the loot is (not in quantity ped, but in quality)

 

[StarGlider]

Btw, the run would be a 4-5k peds run as i said over 1000 mobs and if shit hits the fan and you manage to get 50% returns on it, i still lose only 2k peds or so which is less then 30 mins of EP IV clicking for me. My ped card has sustained massive damage from my own tilting on EP IV , so this is peanuts in comparison and a gamble i would happily make for a person i have known over the years

Well, thanks for the offer, but am not that greedy to stoop so low
Though with some of the replies I have had, you'd think I'd break your arm for that offer hihi

 

[Mac]

This post has just left me more confused than before. Maybe not being able to figure out the system is what they want...

Agreed. Its like listening to a politician speak.