The efficiency of scopes/lasers

[Vedder]

My entire time playing EU I have had 2 abrer lasers and a Bjornier scope attached to just about every weapon I've fired. Probably 99.5% of my shots have been with this setup.

I'm dissapointed to hear that the lasers and scopes need to be above 50% condition as I have ALWAYS had them with as little repair as possible

Would have been nice if MA did a "Oh.. BTW..." Perhaps putting a line in the laser stats mentioning that I will miss more if its not repaired. I can't even think about how many peds that has cost me... all the while I thought that they were helping me.

I also keep all my equipment pretty low TT (except armour that has always been full). What about weapons now? Do they perform less when TT is low.. FAPS?

MA states somewhere: "Always keep your equipment in top condition, for best performance" or something like that.
Whether it applies to everything, I don't know.
Well... We know it doesn't apply to the L stuff at least

 

[Hybrid]

Well... We know it doesn't apply to the L stuff at least

Or do we

 

[Konve]

MA states somewhere: "Always keep your equipment in top condition, for best performance" ...

They've said that over and over again. I am 99% sure it's on entropiauniver.com and I am 100% sure it's on mindark.com

It has been said so many times, that you should keep your items at as high TT as possible, that I wonder how come anyone but the newest people could not know it.

 

[Konve]

I made four runs of 1k+ shots each. The weapon used was Korss H400. I wanted to know if lasers and scopes made any difference at maxed stats.

I can tell you now that I think 10 HA = 9% miss and not 8%.
Attachments used was SE600*2 and 3500RS - all at full TT.


#1: Korss (clean - no attachments) @ aprox 28ped TT at start
Total shots: 1079
Total misses: 89
Missrate: 8,2%


#2: Korss (with attachments) @ aprox 22ped TT at start
Total shots: 1212
Total misses: 106
Missrate: 8,7%

#3: Korss (with attachments) @ aprox 44ped TT at start
Total shots: 1171
Total misses: 117
Missrate: 9,9%

#4: Korss (clean) @ aprox 38ped TT at start
Total shots: 1098
Total misses: 98
Missrate: 8,9%

In total:
Total shots: 4560
Total misses: 410
Missrate: 8,99%

Likelyhood that attachments have any effect at already maxed stats: Dreadful.

Recoda might have made the price of lasers go to the double with this thread, but I suspect I just lowered them back down to the ground again.



(If I made any obvious error here, then please slap me - it's 3:30 AM here and I'm off to bed. This experiment took almost five hours to complete. )

Edit: Oh yeah, I was after Longu. Of course the loot sucked big time and I came back with some 60-70%. Did get my first ESI, ever since they changed them, though so I might recoop some loss there (but it was "only" 13ped tt).

 

[aridash]

I could setup a different combination or place some buttons in the application if you feel like you need them?

learn the power of the config/ini file. do not restrict your users to what you think is a good idea (unless absolutly necessary). with EU you can use any key for shooting, 1, 3, tab, enter, etc. allow the user to specify their own keybindings, allow your app to be flexible.

 

[Recoda]

...

Interesting, I think we may need to do at least a 10,000 shoots run in order to find out the real truth though. Just a couple of missed shoots due to lag or synch-issues would make a huge difference on the result on a 1,000 shoots run. So it'd be safer to do a 10,000 one, I haven't had the time to try it yet though.

learn the power of the config/ini file. do not restrict your users to what you think is a good idea (unless absolutly necessary). with EU you can use any key for shooting, 1, 3, tab, enter, etc. allow the user to specify their own keybindings, allow your app to be flexible.

This was just a simple application that I created in a few minutes, and I didn't feel like it was something that'd be used for a long time, so I didn't want to spend to much time on it.

 

[Konve]

Interesting, I think we may need to do at least a 10,000 shoots run in order to find out the real truth though. Just a couple of missed shoots due to lag or synch-issues would make a huge difference on the result on a 1,000 shoots run. So it'd be safer to do a 10,000 one, I haven't had the time to try it yet though.

Yeah I can understand that the amount of shots might be insufficient. But even so, both my tests with attachments were worse then those with. I also spread them out to even the risk of lagg etc (I did withouth, with, with and without again).

It would be interesting to try with a korss at full TT.

 

[Recoda]

Yeah I can understand that the amount of shots might be insufficient. But even so, both my tests with attachments were worse then those with. I also spread them out to even the risk of lagg etc (I did withouth, with, with and without again).

It would be interesting to try with a korss at full TT.

Yeah, I thought that was a bit odd. I guess the lasers aren't supposed to have any effect on weapon with maxed stats though, not after seeing that test.
I guess you're right that the missrate is around 9% instead of 8% on maxed weapons, it'd be interesting to see another test on a unlimited weapon though.

Anyway, nice test and gratz to the ESI. It's great that those are back in the loot yet again.

 

[Konve]

Sadly, I don't have 10 HA on any not-(L) weapons.

(Or anything near it.)

 

[Recoda]

Sadly, I don't have 10 HA on any not-(L) weapons.

(Or anything near it.)

Well, you've already determined that 10HA weapons cannot be increased, so I'm more interested in weapons that haven't already been maxed.

 

[andyzammy]

just a thought:
at the beginning, we all thought armour was the only item that was affected by tt value: we've been proven wrong (so far by the looks of it) with the lasers. do you guys think we should test out weapons aswell? lots of weapons have very high tt values, and im guessing that most people usualy have them at v. low tt so they're not tying up ped.

 

[Konve]

just a thought:
at the beginning, we all thought armour was the only item that was affected by tt value: we've been proven wrong (so far by the looks of it) with the lasers. do you guys think we should test out weapons aswell? lots of weapons have very high tt values, and im guessing that most people usualy have them at v. low tt so they're not tying up ped.

...


I don't think there's a need to test weapons. We can just assume they are affected by TT value. Oh hey, I pretty much said that in a post a few posts higher up (it says on mindark.com that items need to be repaired to function at 100%). I'll find the quote and give it to you, one second.

Edit:

Fees

Users in EU do not pay any fixed fee or monthly subscription fee in order to be part of the Entropia Universe. Users costs are the equipment and objects that they collect and which wear out with use. Users must regularly upgrade their possessions via special automated service stations to retain full capacity.

For example, a hunting weapon wears in relation to the number of shots discharged. The wear level is indicated via status information on the screen and can also be noticed by reduced performance in the object. The normal service fee for an active user lies between 0.5 and 1.5 USD per hour.

I hope that satisfies you.

 

[andyzammy]

fair enough. just that for a long time (well, since i joined) i managed to drill into my head that it was only armour we needed to worry about. also, quite a lot of people have the same views too (i've noticed whenever they write in noobies section when they're helping out). yea i read that too, but i dunno i just never thought much of it.

 

[Mathayus]

with all this now i understand the purpose of (L) stuff,theyr the chance of husing something with theyr full performance till they get broke..since we wont get full performance of regular stuff non (L) since they get damaged each time we use it,lowering this way the performance...
all this time and only now figured this...and this applyes to everything i suppose...

 

[Doer]

I can tell you now that I think 10 HA = 9% miss and not 8%.

Yeah after my runs of 1k shots i agree that, at least under normal playing conditions, 9% is more realistic no matter how careful one is. You can go for a long time with 7-8% missed, and then you'll miss 3 or 4 on just a single mob. I always thought that was lag or something else in netcode, but after doing a few very careful runs where i pause and reposition every time i miss, now i'm wondering if that's just a spike in the "dynamic" variation in miss rate, much like what happens with mob hitrate, loot, etc.

Likelyhood that attachments have any effect at already maxed stats: Dreadful.

That seems to be the result of the other short tests people have done, too. I didn't get to try with repaired attachments, but with almost broken attachments i really couldn't see a difference -- for better or for worse.

Now we need tests un-maxed weapons...

 

[Moribund]

...


I don't think there's a need to test weapons. We can just assume they are affected by TT value. Oh hey, I pretty much said that in a post a few posts higher up (it says on mindark.com that items need to be repaired to function at 100%). I'll find the quote and give it to you, one second.

Edit:

I hope that satisfies you.

Yes, but some months ago when I looted a fap-35 with a tt of about 20ped from a Bristle. I went to PA fapping sweating newbies until it was broken and then I gave it away.
The thing is that I healed max every single click all the way down until it couldn't be used anymore.

So it seems that faps isn't affected by it.

 

[Hybrid]

fair enough. just that for a long time (well, since i joined) i managed to drill into my head that it was only armour we needed to worry about. also, quite a lot of people have the same views too (i've noticed whenever they write in noobies section when they're helping out). yea i read that too, but i dunno i just never thought much of it.

Konve- I also had this exact thing drilled into my head.. only armour matters to have at full TT... not sure if Mindark added this recently to their page.. but it is news to me. Wouldn't hurt to do a few tests with a near 0 TT weapon and a full now would it?

 

[Konve]

Konve- I also had this exact thing drilled into my head.. only armour matters to have at full TT... not sure if Mindark added this recently to their page.. but it is news to me. Wouldn't hurt to do a few tests with a near 0 TT weapon and a full now would it?

Wouldn't hurt at all, be my guest.

But it's not news. I am posetive I read it on the old info booth. (Read: The version of project-entropia.com that was around the time PE went gold - ie 2003.)

 

[Hybrid]

Ok then I will run a few tests

Now.. to figure out how MA judges "performance". Perhaps I will have to write down my damage each shot (include misses) and get an average damage with low TT and with full.. will let you know my results

 

[e-lite]

Adding another important aspect to this thread, that I wrote about almost a year ago:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16313&

 

[Konve]

Adding another important aspect to this thread, that I wrote about almost a year ago:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16313&

I don't think lasers and scope alter your skillgains. I made a few test runs like two months ago and I didn't notice any difference at all. I didn't look at the amount of skillgains, but rather the total outcome of extra levels in a skill.

I don't know, maybe the HA (I used Korss there as well) altered those results too.

 

[demoniac]

This whole thing just seems to get more confusing. Maybe it's time MA added some viewable information for the effect these attachments have.

All I can add is that decayed weapons (unlimited) don't seem to show less average damage in the tests I have done and seen so misses seem to be the only area they might affect. Misses are so dependent on network conditions and other factors though that I struggle to believe any of the results so far without a lot more data.

It has also been suggested a few times that different mobs and maturities have their own dodge and evade characteristics. I can't say I have seen much evidence of this but it's another possible spanner in the works for tests like this.

From the tests I have done (far from empirical) my gut feelings are:

- Sights and scopes do increase your HA (i.e. less misses)
- Maxed weapons are not improved at all by this effect
- Network conditions can result in as much as 60% miss rate that no attachments will help
- Skill gain is not affected by attachments in any obvious way

 

[e-lite]

I don't think lasers and scope alter your skillgains. I made a few test runs like two months ago and I didn't notice any difference at all. I didn't look at the amount of skillgains, but rather the total outcome of extra levels in a skill.

I don't know, maybe the HA (I used Korss there as well) altered those results too.

But it does affect your skill gain. I am 110% sure of this. Either it boosts your gain, or it slows it down, depending on your current level.

 

[Skippie]

well, thanks for your work. i too had a sweeper recently, and got rid of my scope. i tted my abrers one day for ammo. and although i wasn't doing any rigourous testing, thought i did better without sights on the gun, than i did with.

well, let's just say i rarely if ever have kept any weapons attachments besides amps at full tt.

since your post, a friend of mine who put some money into a hanzor and two garguls and never really felt it did anything, has since started using a korss, and gave me this nice attachment set to use should i want to do the 560 ped of repairs.

if you have prooven this, maybe i should get my head out of my ass and do the repairs, if the 53% skill mod will mean something. i'm back on a laser pistol now (imp 2870) and doing well with it with no sight or scopes. i'm going to start using them now.

also, at 5/10 on my gun, i figure a 53% skill mod gives me 153% of my hit ability or 7.65. do i undertstand this correctly? if so, woot, and thanks anna.

But it does affect your skill gain. I am 110% sure of this. Either it boosts your gain, or it slows it down, depending on your current level.

one other thing i have heard before, but had no way of prooving i thought, was that if the skill mod you are using puts you say right before a rank on the mod, you get the slow skilling you'd have right before your rank if you hit ability was there on those skills. so if you are having trouble skilling, maybe taking off the attachments or removing a sight is a good idea, to get you over your skill rank and back to business.

is this in any way what you mean by this boosting your gain or slowing it down?

 

[Witte]

Good work peeps, interesting thread. My personal experience: When I put just one SE600 + scope on a dar, my missrate seems to be about the same as on a korss, at just 4.5 HA. I totaly have no data to back this up, but to give an example, I hit 20 times in a row with no problem. When I switch to m2910 (without scopes etc) the hitrate seems to be awfull, although my HA is just 4.0 in HG. I might do a little testrun myself later .

 

[e-lite]

one other thing i have heard before, but had no way of prooving i thought, was that if the skill mod you are using puts you say right before a rank on the mod, you get the slow skilling you'd have right before your rank if you hit ability was there on those skills. so if you are having trouble skilling, maybe taking off the attachments or removing a sight is a good idea, to get you over your skill rank and back to business.

is this in any way what you mean by this boosting your gain or slowing it down?

Yeah, that is exactly what I mean It is also the conclusion we came to during tests in my old thread (see link a few posts back in this thread)

 

[Konve]

But it does affect your skill gain. I am 110% sure of this. Either it boosts your gain, or it slows it down, depending on your current level.

Well Mindark says you're supposed to hunt your level. So if you boost your HA +30%, then maybe the mob you were hunting is now too weak for you and you get less skills. (Or the mob you were hunting was too strong but is now your level.)

Edit:

From the tests I have done (far from empirical) my gut feelings are:

- Sights and scopes do increase your HA (i.e. less misses)
- Maxed weapons are not improved at all by this effect
- Network conditions can result in as much as 60% miss rate that no attachments will help
- Skill gain is not affected by attachments in any obvious way

I think that pretty much sums this thread up, because I think that's what's been said so far - the last point about skillgains being the last one to look into.

well, thanks for your work. i too had a sweeper recently, and got rid of my scope. i tted my abrers one day for ammo. and although i wasn't doing any rigourous testing, thought i did better without sights on the gun, than i did with.

I don't really understand this. You did better without the lasers and scope on your sweeper? You can't attach them to a sweeper, can you?

(e-lite, haven't you said in the past that a sweeper has better chanse to hit then a weapon able to carry scope and laser? Or was it only higher dmg then an amp-able weapon?)

also, at 5/10 on my gun, i figure a 53% skill mod gives me 153% of my hit ability or 7.65. do i undertstand this correctly? if so, woot, and thanks anna.

I think that's correct.

one other thing i have heard before, but had no way of prooving i thought, was that if the skill mod you are using puts you say right before a rank on the mod, you get the slow skilling you'd have right before your rank if you hit ability was there on those skills. so if you are having trouble skilling, maybe taking off the attachments or removing a sight is a good idea, to get you over your skill rank and back to business.

If this is true, then the skillgains from (L) weapons must be related to a hidden figgure that equals your HA one an unlimited weapon with the same stats. I mean, a person with 10 HA (but otherwise very low average skills) on an Breer M1a (or whatever they're called) does gain skills while shooting snables. I don't think someone with 10 HA on a similar, unlimited gun would get a lot of skills from doing that.


Edit2: I wonder if there will be laser and scopes with Negative figgures in the future. Say you have really high skills, your have a hidden HA figgure of 15. But the gun is maxed at 10 so it doesn't show more then that. But still, from hunting you can tell that you gain almost no skills at all, because they are already so high - all mobs are below your level.

So if you attach some -50% to your weapon, and you now have a hidden figgure of 10, and your shown HA is still 10. So your stats were not modified, however you now gain skills a lot faster because the mobs are at your level (again).

 

[e-lite]

(e-lite, haven't you said in the past that a sweeper has better chanse to hit then a weapon able to carry scope and laser? Or was it only higher dmg then an amp-able weapon?)

No, I didn't say you have better chanse to hit. The hitability remains the same. I did how ever say that "some" weapons have higher actual damage then others, regardless of therotical economy. This is the thread I wrote about that: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2787

 

[Konve]

No, I didn't say you have better chanse to hit. The hitability remains the same. I did how ever say that "some" weapons have higher actual damage then others, regardless of therotical economy. This is the thread I wrote about that: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2787

My bad, didn't remember if it was hitability or average dmg.

 

[Doer]

Skippie, it hasn't been proved yet: only Recoda himself has been able to see any difference. The two other testers since then have only checked maxed weapons and seen no obvious difference.

Anyone wondering about this should download Recoda's little program and start collecting data themselves. It will take a massive amount of very carefully collected data to "prove" this to any degree of certainty, much less work out what exactly the attachments do. For example, even if the full mod % is applied to the HA (like what you describe Skippie), but there is no modification at 10/10, at what point does one fade into the other?

BTW that program is useful for keeping count if you're testing evade, too.