Question: Am I a Gypper, or am I the one being gypped?

[BenCoyote]

Alright the reason why I'm writing this post isn't to complain but rather point out to the noobs out there, that you have a nice guy out here who is trying to help you succeed, and yet today I had some rather interesting interactions with some people that left me wondering if I should even bother helping the folks succeed.

For My example I'm selling to the noobs guns and ammo. (and I'm selling it for what I feel is a fair price at the moment, Namely 8PED Per K, and I'm basing the 8PED on the TT Value of the gun and the difference in ammo so the lower the TT Value of the gun, the more I give out in ammo so that it balances out to 8 PED. Let's say I sell a Full TT Value Opalo (3.80) and Also 420 Rounds of Ammo (4.20) that's 8 PED or my trade price of 1K worth of sweat

Yet today, One person had the right value but killed the deal when I honestly told him that he had the right value (7.20 PED + 100 Sweat (.80)) and another person just wanted to buy the guns but no ammo (a 10.13 PEd Deal) that had him giving me 9.05 PED, plus 100 sweat (.80) + 47 fruit (which he claimed was .282) so I sold him the gun

Then there was a third person who today wanted an Opalo (3.80) and the 4.20 ammo which I gladly sold.. It's still 8 PED of goods.

Now for the noobs I would like to point out something.. Their Sweat is really worth maybe right now 7-8 PED, and most resellers are buying for 4.7-5 PED per K, so when you think about it, I'm not selling to a reseller and taking a loss, cause I'm not selling to any reseller (that would be fool hardy) I'm collecting the wsweat for use to make mind essence (which I use personally)

So in the end, the sweater I feel is getting a good deal, but then I wonder why folks TT The gun and the Ammo.. when they could go out hunting and get some loot that is possibly worth more than 8PED.

So the real bottom line, is .. Am I gypping folks out of their sweat? or are they they ones doing the gypping?

After all there's no reselling going on, and I've had many a happy customer thanking me (and a few who just say "Bye" and run away)

So let's hear what the folks have to say, After all It's the economy I'm helping, and have no personal gain for it.

Ben Coyote a.k.a. "The Blind Snipter"

 

[mastermesh]

hmm?

Dealing in sweat is always tricky. That's one of the main reasons I don't buy or sell sweat at the moment. I do think it's possible to sell sweat in shopkeepers though... I have considered possibly starting a consignment shop to do that, but every time I think about doing that, I start thinking of some of the topics you seem to be stumbling on to here. Sweat trading is pretty risky business in realty because if you compare true TT value to prices people may or may not pay, the markup on sweat is actually just about the highest markup on anything in game... don't see too many other things selling for over 500%!

 

[BenCoyote]

Trying to give the Sweater more 'bang for their buck'

Well mastermesh you make valid points, but I would like to point out that what I'm trying to do is really two fold.

First off I'm taking sweat off the market so that resellers won't be getting their cut of the profits, plus I plan to create my own Mind Essence so that I don't have to depend on the auction house.

In return, the sweater gets the most out of their sweat (after all even though the prices fluctuate (although it's a downward spiral) I want to give the sweaters the benefit of the doubt.. After all they deserve to have some fun too.. so they get a gun, and ammo for a fair price I feel.
But if sweat is so risky then I'll leave it to the sweaters to tell me so, and I'll stop pushing guns and ammo for them.

But that's just my thoughts on this matter.

Ben Coyote a.k.a. "The Blind Snipter

 

[kebplay]

So the real bottom line, is .. Am I gypping folks out of their sweat? or are they they ones doing the gypping?

Sounds like a good deal for the sweaters, and unless they want to start skilling in hunting, then they are probably better off TTing the gun and ammo and buying an energy refiner and nexus.

Gypsy

PS, do you have something against gypsies?

 

[DoubleWolf]

So in the end, the sweater I feel is getting a good deal, but then I wonder why folks TT The gun and the Ammo.. when they could go out hunting and get some loot that is possibly worth more than 8PED.

So the real bottom line, is .. Am I gypping folks out of their sweat? or are they they ones doing the gypping?

Why would folks TT the gun and the ammo? Perhaps they are already have a gun, or a different weapon altogether like a TT blade and just want the peds. They're smart enough to know that peds are peds, whether it comes in item form or just pure peds. You're paying 8 ped/k in the form of items with no markup. If I was trying to sell my sweat on the street, but I already had an Opalo, I'd have no hesitation on taking you up on your deal and then simply TTing the gun to get the peds for more ammo.

Is anyone getting "gypped"? I don't think so. You're paying the price you want to pay, and they're getting the ped value they want for their sweat. What they do with what you give them is their own business, just like what you do with the sweat they give you is your business.

 

[BenCoyote]

IT's all about ethics and honesty really

Sounds like a good deal for the sweaters, and unless they want to start skilling in hunting, then they are probably better off TTing the gun and ammo and buying an energy refiner and nexus.

Gypsy

PS, do you have something against gypsies?

Actually Gypsy I don't have anything against gypsies. I'm actually more concerned that neither the sweater who is buying from me, or myself are getting cheated in the process. It's a little known thing called "Honesty" which a number of people (who shall remain nameless as I really don't know who they are), tend to be dishonest and try to sell "Short" to a hard working sweater, who's spent anywhere from 6 to 7 hours gathering sweat. After all, this is basically why I'm asking this question.

And considering that a lot of folks could get a lot less for their sweat, (Which is what I'm not suggesting they do), by selling to a reseller, I feel that for the price I'm offering to them, is in fact an honest price first and foremost. For I've seen a lot of people in game actually try to 'sell short' to the sweaters who at most have spent 6.5 to 7 hours (maybe less if they're skilled) to gather 1K of sweat, and sell it to someone.

So what I'm basically doing is a form of mutual trust for not only myself, but also for the sweaters in question. I'm basically in terms removing the resellers from the equation, by selling the sweaters the products they need, be it rifles, ammo, or even Vivo FAPS. In short, this is really all about ethics rather than profit.

Why would folks TT the gun and the ammo? Perhaps they are already have a gun, or a different weapon altogether like a TT blade and just want the peds. They're smart enough to know that peds are peds, whether it comes in item form or just pure peds. You're paying 8 ped/k in the form of items with no markup. If I was trying to sell my sweat on the street, but I already had an Opalo, I'd have no hesitation on taking you up on your deal and then simply TTing the gun to get the peds for more ammo.

Well to put it that way, makes perfect sense, but then of course they could always come to me and say, "I got a gun, but no ammo, but I do have 1K of sweat. Okay that'll buy you 800 rounds of ammo for that 1K. It's as simple as that. And of course they could still sell the ammo for PED, but why do it? Why not put that ammo to good use and gather potentially a larger loot they could always sell to me later (and in fact to be honest, I offer 1% more than the Market Value). So in the end it gives them the incentive to hunt.

I feel that by being honest and saying "I need ammo, and not a gun" tells me that they're self sufficient, and they know what they're doing.

Is anyone getting "gypped"? I don't think so. You're paying the price you want to pay, and they're getting the ped value they want for their sweat. What they do with what you give them is their own business, just like what you do with the sweat they give you is your business.

Right, and that's the whole ethical question here.. When is it a good time to barter down the price? After all look at what was going on in Pre-VU 10. Resellers were buying at a price that was such that it would take just over 1.4K Worth of sweat for an Opalo and another K just to get 300 Rounds of ammo. (That's basing it off the 0.3 price roughly)

I believe that a fair price is such and that if the going rate is 0.5 per hundred then it's fair..but even with 8PED on the line for each K of sweat, I'm basically doing something here that is both helping the sweater by offering them goods in trade for their hard earned sweat, and I'm cutting out the middleman (namely the resellers)

But I think the bottom line is really about honesty here, and I'm trying to offer to the sweater a good honest price for their efforts. A lot of resellers won't even give these sweaters a break nowadays as already I'm seeing the resellers going back to they're old ways of "Selling short" thus cheating the potential newcomers out of a life where they can become part of a game community where they are welcomed, and not feel like they're a slave to the work of sweating. (After all if more bosses were not so greedy and paid their employees a better wage, would there be less turnover, and more people wanting to stay the course and possibly even deposit in the future.

As for the final part of the comment, I say whatever they do with the weapons, armor, and even the FAPS are entirely their business, but I think it would be foolhardy for someone to just TT a FAP (which is what you need to survive in this game) in order to pick up a few PED.

But like you said Doublewolf, It's none of my business to know how smart or how foolhardy the player is. It's their choices and decisions that really make me wonder if they're sane or completely nuts for throwing away good items.

But that's how I 'see' it. It's about ethics and nothing more.

Ben Coyote a.k.a. "The Blind Sniper:"

 

[Immortal]

What economics class did you flunk out of

 

[BenCoyote]

What economics class did you flunk out of

Actually Immortal, I've dealt with plenty of people in my lifetime at work in real life (as a Customer Service Representative), and I would rather go out the "Extra Mile" for said customers. After all it's that special effort that keeps people coming back to the game and to the business (in Real Life), and to keep playing it as well as doing business with me. But it's also about trust and building that trust. And it also gives me the satisfaction of knowing that a player feels special, rather than just a "Drone" or a "Worker" who's getting a lousy wage for nothing. When he gets an item from me, It's worth the value of his time that he's put in, and not about what he does with the product. (Frankly it's a shame that folks sell off goods to the TT without realizing their full value).

But I also know there are going to be dissenters in the midst like yourself who would rather try to cheat the employee or wage earner his fair shake in life. And that's what makes Greed the issue here, So it's ethics vs Greed

If Noobs didn't want the goods, then the point of this game about trading honestly would be totally pointless. After all I'm not in the game for the profit, but rather I'm in it for the friendship and Comaraderie that should be in any game. After all a friend for life is much better than having no friends at all

That's the real bottom line here.

Ben Coyote a.k.a. "The Blind Sniper"

 

[Oleg]

Paying them in PEDs would be a lot easier and would work out exactly the same. Why bother?

 

[Phil Surtees]

Ok, what I see is that you are trying to take advantage of the fact that sweat can't be tt'd, and trading tt items for it? Is that correct?
It's a reasonable proposition, if so,,the noobs don't have to deal with the trade function. But since the item you are giving has a fixed value, and what they trade has a variable value, there will always be a possible complaint.
Yo, it's the business your in, get used to it. No one gives much love to pawn brokers either, and it's comparable.

 

[Serica]

I'm not quite sure how you can see trading items available from any TT, in place of straight ped, as being of any significant advantage to another player ?

You've save them the minute's walk to a TT ??

I could understand it if, say, you had crafted/looted a bunch of low level eco guns and were offering them at TT price...

When I started, only a portiion of the value of sweat I sold went to guns/ammo.
Some was put aside for faps, armor, mining gear etc etc. Frankly, if someone offered to pay for sweat in ammo/opalo, I would have taken the ammo/opalo straight to the nearest TT.

After all, I could buy ammo/opalo again any time I wanted for the same price.

 

[BenCoyote]

Paying them in PEDs would be a lot easier and would work out exactly the same. Why bother?

Because of the fact that what they are getting is in fact a product (or a free service) without having to deal with issues like resellers (who cheat them anyway by offering ridiculously low prices in the first place) plus I tend to move a lot more merchandise like guns and ammo rather than having them to wait for a seller to come along to give them a fair deal.. So what? It's not like I'm giving them everything but what I would consider a fair price. And usually in today's economy, goods are as fair as it comes.. At least goods have value and what they do with them is really none of my business But I do want to make people realize there are a few good people out there in the hordes of people who would rather not give someone the time of day for their effort.

So in the end, it's a win win situation.. The seller gets what he/she wants and really in the end, I get the satisfaction of knowing that I've done a good customer service job to those who may stay around and who knows.. Maybe they'll like the game so much they'll deposit. (After all are the depositing players complaining about bad loots if I recall correctly?). After all I've dealt with honest and dishonest people alike so I know what I'm getting myself into.

But again it's this issue of building trust that a lot of folks in game tend to overlook. After all people want to have 'fun' and not have a 'chore' to do when it comes to gathering sweat. After all if I can give 5 guns to 5 honest hard working people, do you think it's worth it?

Well... Do you?

I'm not quite sure how you can see trading items available from any TT, in place of straight ped, as being of any significant advantage to another player ?

You've save them the minute's walk to a TT ??

I could understand it if, say, you had crafted/looted a bunch of low level eco guns and were offering them at TT price...

When I started, only a portiion of the value of sweat I sold went to guns/ammo.
Some was put aside for faps, armor, mining gear etc etc. Frankly, if someone offered to pay for sweat in ammo/opalo, I would have taken the ammo/opalo straight to the nearest TT.

After all, I could buy ammo/opalo again any time I wanted for the same price.

That's true, Senca, but then I'm also doing one other thing here for them, and that's usually 90% of the problem. After all a lot of folks out there aren't thinking with their minds, but rather with their pursestrings.

I on the other hand would rather have a full friend's list of potential sellers (After all you should see how many people add me to their friends list when they see that I'm giving them something they actually want).

And the plus side, is that I'm even giving them a better break than most resellers and traders (I know of one case where a noob asked me if I knew anyone who bought muscle oil.. and well since I craft, I still give 1% over the markup most other dealers/resellers would..(103% (Myself) vs 102% (Others) when (the real market value is 106%) This in turn gives the customer in question a better choice to deal with.. for this goes back to the theory of "Mass Production-Mass Consumption" where the money invested goes back into helping the consumer get what they want for a fair price.

Sure to a lot of folks It sounds backwards but it's not.. The more customers you are able to bring in, the better the returns are in the long run..

But that's the bottom line for retailers.. Selling the product that the consumer wants for a fair price.

Ben Coyote aka "The Blind Sniper"

 

[jod]

Ok the price you are offering for sweat is good and in that respect you are doing them a service but when you choose what it gets spent on you really arent doing them a great favour.

To further your analogy of hard earned wages,how would you like it if this pay day instead of getting cash you got a certain value voucher to your local supermarket,another for you utility bills,another for the movies etc....essentially your boss deciding what you do with the reward for your hard work.
Would you really be all that happy about that?
And if you could cash them in for their face value to spend it on what you want/need would you?


There are so many more things that that person may have in mind for their hard earned peds.Should they knock back your good price just because they dont particularly need an opalo or ammo? I dont think so.A good price is a good price.

If you had been offering them something with a little MU for TT value and they just TT'd it then that would be a bit lazy and not in the true intention of the action and perhaps something to make you think twice about doing it.

However if they then went and traded it for the right MU then that would be furthering the RCE as intended as you suggest whilst teaching them a little bit about how the RCE works but when you give them TT items its apples or oranges whether they keep the item or TT it for the peds.

So far you are giving them a good price for their work but whether you give them TT items or straight peds its identical so what they do with it after that really should not effect you at all they are just making up their own mind on what they really want for their work.

EDIT:
After reading more of your replies it seems like this isnt the issue at all rather just you wanting to tell people you are doing noobs a favour.

In the price you are paying for sweat you are doing that but thats where it ends imo.

 

[BenCoyote]

Ok the price you are offering for sweat is good and in that respect you are doing them a service but when you choose what it gets spent on you really arent doing them a great favour.

Good point, but still what they do with the product as has been pointed out previously is there business.

To further your analogy of hard earned wages,how would you like it if this pay day instead of getting cash you got a certain value voucher to your local supermarket another for you utility bills another for the movies etc....essentially your boss deciding what you do with the reward for your hard work.
Would you really be all that happy about that?
And if you could cash them in for their face value to spend it on waht you want/need would you?

Well the converse of that would be Would you be better off earning 5 PED an hour or 8 PED an Hour (Don't answer that as we all know the answer)? Sure what you might say is doing them a dis service in a way, but still the question reamains to the community, would you rather backstab a friend just for 3 bucks

? There are so many more things that that person may have in mind for their hard earned peds.Should they knock back your good price just because they dont particularly need an opalo or ammo? I dont think so.A good price is a good price.

and here's the crux of the matter.. They could always ask me or talk to me, and say, "I really don't need a gun or the ammo, but rather the peds for ammo" But then What I'm offering is a far better deal for them rather than seeing some reseller give them a lot less for their efforts. (And you resellers know who you are!), and if they want PED, then they should speak up..but a lot of times, I hear folks wish they had a gun so they could hunt.. (or is this some 'sob' story they are playing on all of us?) But if they are an honest customer, and are willing to trust.. that's the key to "Making friends and influencing people" (so what have you done to help "The Little Guy then?)

If you had been offering them something with a little MU for TT value and they just TT'd it then that would be a bit lazy and not in the true intention of the action and perhaps something to make you think twice about doing it.

However if they then went and traded it for the right MU then that would be further the RCE as intended as you suggest but when you give them TT items its apples or oranges whether they keep the item or TT it for the peds.

And yet when you sell a person short it tends to be that they'll never deal with you again. So it's the old addage of "Some will, some won't, so what?"

So far you are giving them a good price for their work but whether you give them TT items or straight peds its identical so what they do with it after that really should not effect you at all they are just making up their own mind on what they really want for their work.

Point noted Jod, but then you have to realize one other thing. Today we live in a world of gratification, where they (The People) want it now, They don't want to have to wait for a buyer to offer them a lesser price just for their efforts. After all have you or anyone else here, ever gotten a player who screams literally in your face, "GIVE ME PEDS for My Sweat!?" (I have) and it's not a very enjoyable experience for the buyer nor the seller. But if folks would rather come to me, and talk to me about what they want, maybe I can find them a good deal or point them in the right direction. (and believe me I've had a lot of folks Thank me, for the item or I've traded for their sweat. So even though they may never come back to me and deal with me again, I know I've given them a fair price to within reason. Maybe if people were a little more kinder than cut throat the game would be a better place for all of us, would it not?

Ben Coyote a.k.a. "The Blind Snipter"

 

[Immortal]

Actually Immortal, I've dealt with plenty of people in my lifetime at work in real life (as a Customer Service Representative), and I would rather go out the "Extra Mile" for said customers. After all it's that special effort that keeps people coming back to the game and to the business (in Real Life), and to keep playing it as well as doing business with me. But it's also about trust and building that trust. And it also gives me the satisfaction of knowing that a player feels special, rather than just a "Drone" or a "Worker" who's getting a lousy wage for nothing. When he gets an item from me, It's worth the value of his time that he's put in, and not about what he does with the product. (Frankly it's a shame that folks sell off goods to the TT without realizing their full value).

But I also know there are going to be dissenters in the midst like yourself who would rather try to cheat the employee or wage earner his fair shake in life. And that's what makes Greed the issue here, So it's ethics vs Greed

If Noobs didn't want the goods, then the point of this game about trading honestly would be totally pointless. After all I'm not in the game for the profit, but rather I'm in it for the friendship and Comaraderie that should be in any game. After all a friend for life is much better than having no friends at all

That's the real bottom line here.

Ben Coyote a.k.a. "The Blind Sniper"

Yeah, i'm a bigtime sweat-mogul.

I wonder how many of those 'noobs' you've traded are actually second accounts of PA resellers. I bet you don't know.

You're opening yourself up to be exploited, and you will suffer the consequenes for being foolish. Others would say you're tryin to raise the price of sweat. Anyone with half a brain is going to do this:
Get your "weapons and ammo"
TT them
Buy 1k sweat of the nearest noob for 5 ped
Seel it to you for a tidy 60% profit.
So, I ask again, what economics class did you flunk out of? This time, try keeping your thoughts to two sentences (they are, after all, only worth two sentences).

You seem to be very passionate about giving noobs an extra 30pennies for 5 hours of work. Well done, Francis of Assissi.

 

[Wildman Alpha]

SAVE YOURSELF THE HEADACHE!!

Buy sweat with ped point them to the TT!!!

I tried similar at PA years back Selling (Lesser TP Chip, TT Implant and TT Inserter with 1k of ME) A complete kit to get them to TP and I taught them how to use it. I was able to do this because I was looting many Lesser TP chips at the time from Argo I believe. Each package had its own cost due to varying TT price on the chip. ME I think I was 10% below the current average I can do this as I was buying sweat cheap mining my own nexus. So total cost was TT for the TT items, I think +1 at the time for the chip and 10% below market for ME. Bottom line everything was clearly below market to include me helping them make it work (free) I don't think any package cost more than 50ped total. Someone still called me a scammer, I was SO Pissed they had everyone at PA on me till I stopped selling the stuff I was doing nothing but helping them.

Moral of the story if someone perceives your wrong you will hear about it in the worst way. It is tough to prove otherwise as I even showed the person calling me a scammer in trade what the deal was. He wasn't agreeing, but I did sell a few and all left happy with their new found abilities.

 

[Zacariaz]

What I'd like to know, is why you think that sweat is worth .8. I'm not saying that this isn't true, nor am I saying the opposite, but you're drawing a conclusion and I'd very much like to know how you've come to this.

As for the TT food for sweat, I simply think it's stupid. Sorry about my choice of words here, but stupid is really what fit's best. Deal in PEDs and point them to the TT and you've got one problem less.

Then there are those who are just difficult, but that's not only when dealing is sweat. All you have to do is to make a clear statement about what price you're offering and lets those difficult people make up their mind on their own. As long as you're being honest, I really don't see a problem.

When all that is said, I still believe that the sweating system should be dropped. Nothing but trouble if you ask me.


Best regards.

 

[BenCoyote]

Yeah, i'm a bigtime sweat-mogul.

I wonder how many of those 'noobs' you've traded are actually second accounts of PA resellers. I bet you don't know.

You're opening yourself up to be exploited, and you will suffer the consequenes for being foolish. Others would say you're tryin to raise the price of sweat. Anyone with half a brain is going to do this:
Get your "weapons and ammo"
TT them
Buy 1k sweat of the nearest noob for 5 ped
Seel it to you for a tidy 60% profit.
So, I ask again, what economics class did you flunk out of? This time, try keeping your thoughts to two sentences (they are, after all, only worth two sentences).

You seem to be very passionate about giving noobs an extra 30pennies for 5 hours of work. Well done, Francis of Assissi.

and are you Andrew Carnegie? Apparently not.. (2 Sentences)

What I'd like to know, is why you think that sweat is worth .8. I'm not saying that this isn't true, nor am I saying the opposite, but you're drawing a conclusion and I'd very much like to know how you've come to this.

As for the TT food for sweat, I simply think it's stupid. Sorry about my choice of words here, but stupid is really what fit's best. Deal in PEDs and point them to the TT and you've got one problem less.

Then there are those who are just difficult, but that's not only when dealing is sweat. All you have to do is to make a clear statement about what price you're offering and lets those difficult people make up their mind on their own. As long as you're being honest, I really don't see a problem.

When all that is said, I still believe that the sweating system should be dropped. Nothing but trouble if you ask me

Best regards.

Well you have a point.. but then as "Andrew Carneige" stated in the last comment, he wants me to be the meanest man on Calypso. So if folks want an "Ebeneezer Scrooge" then they got one (Way to go 'Andrew', because I can be really Scroogish here and definitely show you a Mean person..rather than a nice one..)



Ben Coyote a.k.a. "The Blind Sniper" (Who just turned mean)

 

[JackyHorror]

your policy is wrong

After reading your initial post quickly over, here's what i have to say!

Your thinking is flawed!

1) you pay unrealistic 8ped/k for the sweat according to market prices equasion for making mind essence - the selling price:force nexus is quite high at 120+% and the buying price:mind essence is dropping <180%; subtract the refiner decay cost and the auction fee - look what price for 1k sweat you have left; remember to include the rule-of-thumb 10% profit value in this; it comes to about under 5ped per 1000sweat;

2) you are not buying sweat from auction - so you are helping the market to slide down for MindEssence prices, which drives down price of sweat with it, accordingly;

3) by your unreasonable attitude, remarks, comments you endorse the insane 8ped/k hype among those who collect sweat;

4) stop spreading these lies;

5) either you work as a part of conspiracy to actually enslave the sweat makers and crash their sweat market, by not bying products over auction, or you are so deeply misunderstanding the whole situation, that you are in some kind of delusion!

I hope you come out of it and start thinking straight, for all our sake;

Good luck, friend

 

[BenCoyote]

After reading your initial post quickly over, here's what i have to say!

Your thinking is flawed!

Flawed yes, but then maybe if someone like yourself had straightened me out 18 months ago, then I probably wouldn't be depositing in this game, however since we're talking lies here, I bet for the sake of matter we'll strip each of your points apart, and disect them.. after all there's a method to this madness somewhere.

1) you pay unrealistic 8ped/k for the sweat according to market prices equasion for making mind essence - the selling price:force nexus is quite high at 120+% and the buying price:mind essence is dropping <180%; subtract the refiner decay cost and the auction fee - look what price for 1k sweat you have left; remember to include the rule-of-thumb 10% profit value in this; it comes to about under 5ped per 1000sweat;

So give it to me in a full formula let's plug in the values and show some hard data then please.. none of this mumbo jumbo.. Let's see the numbers on the table please..(Or I'm calling your bluff)

2) you are not buying sweat from auction - so you are helping the market to slide down for MindEssence prices, which drives down price of sweat with it, accordingly;

Well no one can put sweat on auction if I recall correctly, of have they changed those rules too? (After all if they did, then I didn't get the memo on this or I'm totally clueless that you CAN put sweat on the Auction block)

3) by your unreasonable attitude, remarks, comments you endorse the insane 8ped/k hype among those who collect sweat;

But since the sweat prices are always in a downward spiral (Due to the lack of Mindforce use at the moment, the prices of even 0.5 per 100 are considered Too unrealistic.. so then maybe I should go mean and offer TT+1 rather than TT+5? Just to be honest here..after all for a sweater to make enough money for a gun it's either 3.10 PED (Isis CB5) or 3.80 PED (Opalo) so it will take a sweater with a selling price of 0.35 just over 1.2 K of sweat in order to buy even the more expensive Opalo, and that's even before Ammo.

4) stop spreading these lies;

What Lies? Either I'm being Gypped or the sweater is.. and either way we both lose..(But then I never said I was playing to win, but rather playing to have fun. Even if I am on a budget)

5) either you work as a part of conspiracy to actually enslave the sweat makers and crash their sweat market, by not bying products over auction, or you are so deeply misunderstanding the whole situation, that you are in some kind of delusion!

Actually with this it's misunderstanding.. But I'm not in a delusion..Truth be told, I had a crappy mentor who 'farmed' me, (Which is why I'm TOTALLY Against the idea of reinstating the mentor program) and this "So Called Mentor" Who farmed me, never taught me an ounce of sense as in how to play the game properly, so yeah chalk that up of living in a delusion. The delusion of hope.. of putting my trust in people.. So now then you'll have to rebuild that trust. After all I do deposit every month but that can change easily.. all I have to do is say "NO MORE" and ask to cash out..

but then where's the fun in quitting?
After all if I quit Entropia will still survive without me but the loot pools will get a tad smaller because I'm not depositing. (or is that a lie too?)

Ben Coyote A.k.a. "The Blind sniper"

 

[Mika]

Sweat price should be more around 1.4 a K tbh

atleast the price will rise, .8 atm is kind of cheap IMO as its harder to get sweat now than it was before

 

[aia]

For My example I'm selling to the noobs guns and ammo. (and I'm selling it for what I feel is a fair price at the moment, Namely 8PED Per K, and I'm basing the 8PED on the TT Value of the gun and the difference in ammo so the lower the TT Value of the gun, the more I give out in ammo so that it balances out to 8 PED.

There are two things here:
First the actual price of sweat (0.8). It's a really nice price. If I have tons of Nexus and I feel wealthy, I try to pay a decent price, but since I use ME more than average (I guess), I usually have to buy nexus and every pec spent is deposited, I also buy ME at market price (say 190%). As seen that way, unless I got a nexus tower to back it up with, paying 1.0 for sweat and then maybe 140% for nexus to get it as BO (numbers just an example) doesn't work for me (in the long run). So while I'm trying to be nice to sweaters, I also buy ME from traders and from auction. In a way, as long as traders pay a decent price, they do have a purpose: To offer quick peds to people who have sweat they want to sell. To sum it up: 0.8 is a nice price. (And as other people have stated, I hope you have in the back of your head how to do if someone comes with 100k sweat from pre-vu-10 or traders who bought it for .5 in vu 10.)

Offering items for sweat: I think it's a good idea, especially when offering beginner friendly items. For beginners it makes their life easier if it's their first weapon - just keep in mind not all sweaters are total beginners. Some sweaters have advanced in weaponry and are using say Riker, some use CB5(L) and so on. As long as you offer weapons and ammo for TT cost I doubt anyone minds.

What I don't like though is people selling "old" weapons like Jester D1 to beginners (and want markup for them!). Unless someone has *proven* that Jester D1 is at least as good as opalo when it comes to cost of use, I say it's bad business to make a profit by selling them to beginners, and especiallywhen announcing them as "good n00b guns". Sure there can be a point in using old weapons, usually to "hunt above your level", short-range tagging (punisher/brave ME) or for fun as peashooter (mann mph) but I would never recommend a beginner to consider a jester D1 nowdays (days where Jester D1+A103 was a good beginner level combo is long gone since 2007 or so).

Sweat price should be more around 1.4 a K tbh

atleast the price will rise, .8 atm is kind of cheap IMO as its harder to get sweat now than it was before

I got a feeling the sweating has changed; you now have shorter "reload" time when it fails and mobs drop less sweat/try. Maybe it's as simple as it's no advantage in sweating ambus instead of combibos. Also, since the sweating tool is "mk1" and carries stat, I wouldn't be surprised if sweating will be a real profession, where there will be better tools (giving more sweat) that on the other hand will require sweating skills.

Also, as i said, the price what people will be ready to pay for sweat is depending on the cost to get Nexus, and how much people are ready to pay for ME.

 

[Zacariaz]

Did someone ask for a formula to calculate the sweat price?

There are two approaches. the most common being price of one ME - price on one nexus = price on one bottle of sweat. (not including profit margin)

ex. (in pec) 1*1,8 - 1*1,2 = 0,6

The other approach is better in my opinion, but is not perfect as you'll have to make some assumptions. Basics being that you look at the MF chips, mainly attack chips (nerveblast and firestorm) and make up your mind, what eco would be reasonable. From that you can derive what the actual price on ME should be and from there, the same approach as before.

As you may imagine, I've done these calculations many times over the years and the price on sweat is always somewhere between .5 and .6 dependent on the price on nexus.


Well, I hope it was somewhat useful.

 

[BenCoyote]

There are two things here:
First the actual price of sweat (0.8). It's a really nice price. If I have tons of Nexus and I feel wealthy, I try to pay a decent price, but since I use ME more than average (I guess), I usually have to buy nexus and every pec spent is deposited, I also buy ME at market price (say 190%). As seen that way, unless I got a nexus tower to back it up with, paying 1.0 for sweat and then maybe 140% for nexus to get it as BO (numbers just an example) doesn't work for me (in the long run). So while I'm trying to be nice to sweaters, I also buy ME from traders and from auction. In a way, as long as traders pay a decent price, they do have a purpose: To offer quick peds to people who have sweat they want to sell. To sum it up: 0.8 is a nice price. (And as other people have stated, I hope you have in the back of your head how to do if someone comes with 100k sweat from pre-vu-10 or traders who bought it for .5 in vu 10.)

I always believe in giving the "Little guy" a break here, and that's more of a reason to help them. After all a number of people don't help the potential (and I stress Potential here) depositor the chance to have a shot at succeeding. I know of at least 1 case where a person who was a miner didn't deposit until the very end (He's retired from the game now), and in fact he did it all with sweat.

Offering items for sweat: I think it's a good idea, especially when offering beginner friendly items. For beginners it makes their life easier if it's their first weapon - just keep in mind not all sweaters are total beginners. Some sweaters have advanced in weaponry and are using say Riker, some use CB5(L) and so on. As long as you offer weapons and ammo for TT cost I doubt anyone minds.

And that's what I am trying to do here, which is in fact offer the beginner an option to buy directly from someone who is trying to help them out..Which goes back to the issue at hand. Why don't people help out the little guy more? It's because of the fact that a lot of folks are playing the game for the wrong reasons (It's all about profit vs fun here, and even though I was forced (and I stress forced) to deposit to get out of a bad discipleship, I still found the game to be fun..

Now after my so called little faux pas I feel that maybe the game isn't as fun as it was before. After all It's fun to help people out (Whether it's running them to Teleporters or selling them weapons) but the end result is if you can't have fun in a game, then you really shouldn't be playing it. (And the profit motive isn't in my agenda)

What I don't like though is people selling "old" weapons like Jester D1 to beginners (and want markup for them!). Unless someone has *proven* that Jester D1 is at least as good as opalo when it comes to cost of use, I say it's bad business to make a profit by selling them to beginners, and especiallywhen announcing them as "good n00b guns". Sure there can be a point in using old weapons, usually to "hunt above your level", short-range tagging (punisher/brave ME) or for fun as peashooter (mann mph) but I would never recommend a beginner to consider a jester D1 nowdays (days where Jester D1+A103 was a good beginner level combo is long gone since 2007 or so).

Ah yes, the Jester D1.. I still have to laugh as someone was actually trying to push a weapon like that out at sweat camp at the same time I was trying to sell Isis CB5's (L) and Enik S30's with ammo.. I jokingly remarked.."Why on earth are you trying to sell a Level 100 gun to a noob?" They never replied, but it's funny.. By me saying what I did, I was able to sell off 3 guns versus the person who was trying to sell that Jester D1.. I think at that point Honesty won out over Gullibility here. and in the end, by being honest in game do you really move the goods.

I think if folks were more honest, and upfront with the small guys, they would get a lot more sales done.

I got a feeling the sweating has changed; you now have shorter "reload" time when it fails and mobs drop less sweat/try. Maybe it's as simple as it's no advantage in sweating ambus instead of combibos. Also, since the sweating tool is "mk1" and carries stat, I wouldn't be surprised if sweating will be a real profession, where there will be better tools (giving more sweat) that on the other hand will require sweating skills.

Also, as i said, the price what people will be ready to pay for sweat is depending on the cost to get Nexus, and how much people are ready to pay for ME.

Agreed about this whole part, After all it's no surprise that Sweating has in fact become more balanced in this version than it has been in previous versions. (and I'm also agreeing that the Mark 1 is just the tip of the iceberg. wait until they create Mark 2, 3, 4, and possibly 5 where more sweat could be accumulated.. or they could leave it such so that the supplies of sweat can be diminished to a point where Sweat Prices stabilize at a reasonable rate. (Say 0.5 per hundred) thus making it easier for folks can earn a decent wage, rather than slaveing for the "Sweat Barons"

Did someone ask for a formula to calculate the sweat price?

ex. (in pec) (1*1,8) - (1*1,2) = 0,

(ME - FN = Sweat Price)

Well, I hope it was somewhat useful.

Okay if I read this right, then ME = 1*1.8 (180%) - FN = 1*1.2 (120%) = Sweat Price = ?

now it makes sense.. but still I'm not trying to make profit here, but rather to give the folks what they want for an Equitable price (So Profit = 0)

Plugging this back into the equation

1.8-1.2=0.6 so then 0.8 is actually a 40% loss on my part.. but then am I really in it for the profit or the fun? I choose the latter so a 40% loss is really what I call acceptable in my book..

(and I can see the flamers lining up for this one calling me crazy.. so let them. After all I would rather be Francis of Assisi than JP Morgan.)

Ben Coyote a.k.a. "The Blind Sniper"

 

[Thantos]

Paying them in PEDs would be a lot easier and would work out exactly the same. Why bother?

This is exactly what I was thinking.

And if you have to ask if something is ethical, we probably won't be able to explain it to you.

 

[uchavoc]

cool

i think wat yer doing is very cool. being a noob to the game and not able to play for long periods (wife/kids/job) its refreshing to see someone looking out for the noobs. i have asked a few ingame about prices and they were way lower than yer offering for sweat which was dissapointing to me because i figured i would have to play for a month b4 getting a weapon. ive been told by many how easy it is to make ped but those telling me are already well equipped with weps and armor and such and can kill for thier loot. with much time spent dying as i do (is bull crap where it says low lvl creatures tend not to attk when being sweated and ive been attacked by every single creature i sweated) it takes a long time just to gather 150 sweat unless theres a crowd of sweaters for the creatures to choose from when they attack. also selling isnt easy either because no one want to buy less than 1k sweat. so to answer yer question no yer not gypping ppl and i dont think your getting gypped. you do not provide ped only items i think that is a fair trade. once they have the weapon ped will come much easier.

 

[DoubleWolf]

(is bull crap where it says low lvl creatures tend not to attk when being sweated and ive been attacked by every single creature i sweated)

Where does it say that? They don't aggro on you as fast as if you were shooting it and it is possible to get 15 or so successful pulls on occasion, but if you keep sweating it, eventually it's going to attack you.

 

[uchavoc]

Where does it say that? They don't aggro on you as fast as if you were shooting it and it is possible to get 15 or so successful pulls on occasion, but if you keep sweating it, eventually it's going to attack you.

it says that in one of the guides on this forum and also you dont even have to do anything to the exosaurs for them to aggro you. i cant even run through the area looking for fruits and stone with out being attacked by one.

 

[aia]

it says that in one of the guides on this forum and also you dont even have to do anything to the exosaurs for them to aggro you. i cant even run through the area looking for fruits and stone with out being attacked by one.

There are (currently, vu 10) two ways to aggro a mob:
- You can get within the "aggro range"
- You shoot at it (or sweat it)

The (1) is probably the case when you look for fruit/dung. The range varies. For most mobs the inner circle (60m) on the radar can be considered safe - but mobs like trox and spiders will go for you from longer range.

The (2) can happen if you're sweating a mob that hunters are shooting at - if hunters is shooiting at say an atrox it would normally ignore you, but if you sweat it it might attack you.

Some mobs have a pretty long attack range. If you "tag" for instance a big "warrior" (robot) you can get a retalliation within seconds even if it's more than 60m from you - this can be a nasty surprise.

Not all mobs will attack. Some (let's call then "birds") will run away if you stay too close to them or if you "aggro" them (read: try to sweat them). A long time ago though sweating a "bird" would cause it to attack you.

 

[yasic]

I don't have too much authority here, but I am an undergrad math major in my senior year with an emphasis on economics (specifically game theory) who was accepted into grad school for eco (Again, this is very little qualifications, I would be very surprised if there were not many phd's in eco in this game) so I can offer you a little advice here.

You are the one being gypped. Its a bit more complicated than what I am about to say but...

The price of an item is simply how much someone is willing to pay. If sweat can be bought from sweaters at a rate of 5ped for 1k, it is worth 5ped for 1k. When they resell, they are not selling 1k sweat but say 100k sweat, it is not the same product (they are selling sweat + the time it takes to collect 1k sweat, time is money after all) so if they sell it at a rate of 800 ped for 100k sweat, thats how much the product is worth.

So by buying sweat at 8 for 1k, you are purchasing a product worth 5ped for 8 ped, and are being taken advantage of.


The fact that your buying with items not cash makes no difference. If I am paid in 8 quarters, 4 half-dollars, or 2 dollar bills does not matter, it is the same amount and easily interchangeable. Due to how easy it is to switch between them, they are virtually the same thing. What a person chooses to do with his ped/gun is his business alone and you should have no say nor caring of what he does (with the exception of ethical violations which do not apply in this game)

You may think that your helping noobs by giving them guns, but your not- your not harming them either, its a purely neutral exchange (just a waste of time on your part). If they want to hunt they can get a gun, literally just as easily, without your help. If they don't they will sell it just as easily regardless of what you say or do.



Is it wrong to offer 8ped for the value? No, just like it is not wrong for me to pay 22$ for a big mac in mcdonalds, just silly. If you want to do charity for noobs, rather than pay an extra 3 ped for sweat, you should either spend the equivalent time teaching them game mechanics, or find a struggling noob who is hunting and give him extra ammo just for the hell of it.