Amortization of Mayhem Amps

Thark

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Hey everyone,


I thought I might share my idle ramblings about Mayhem Amps. I was curious how much I'd need to hunt, or how long it would take and what MU for Mayhem amps would be cool.

So I thought about it this way: If I was using a mod evil, I would pay a lot more in rep costs, instead of using uni ammo from shrapnel for the mayhem amp. It might not be a 100% accurate and leaves out the life steal that those amps have. But simply looking at how many shots 1 mayhem amp lasts, comparing that to a mod evil and then taking 1% of that amount gives me how much "MU I lost due to repairing instead of using ammo for one Mayhem amp". Then I went and calculated how long I could hunt using Mayhem amps if I wanted to "lose the MU of my mod evil. Ofc this also depends on the speed of your weapon and what not


Here are a few graphs for the Mod Evil. Im too lazy to do it for laser or melee right now. Y is the amount of days I get to hunt if I did 5h every day, over the possible MUs from 100%-1000%.
index.php



And here a "close up" of the more interesting part from 400-1000% MU.
index.php



So I guess this shows, that I could hunt for a year basically every day until I saved the 3500MU of my mod evil with the current 800% MU for BLP mayhem amps. Or it shows that at 422% MU for a Mayhem amp, you never make it back. Or it shows that if you were to get them for tt, it'd take you 396 days to "make" 3500 ped.

Dunno, if anyone cares so make of that what you will but I thought it was kinda interesting. I always just picked them if I wanted some extra healing or I was feeling lazy. Turns out, if you are not suuuper into saving every last PED and just use them when youre hung over and using a fap is annoying, you are pretty much fine.


Cheers
 

morey

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In theory, mayhem amps should offer significantly better loot composition than mod evil too.

Higher rate of ESI, oils and all.
 

Thark

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True, for my setup:

Mod Evil: 3,237
Mayhem: 3,369
 

warmdogg

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what is the eff difference also?
 

Msturlese

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I consider only the attachment parameters
index.php

And i pose the "cost per shot" equal one to another to extract the "BENEFIT?!?" of better efficiency
that is just 0.35% on the Mayhem.
In this case ANY price over 565% is not worth (if not interested to the Leech, life steal, autoheal) effect.
the benefit is negligible in perception, but let's say 0.35% means that every 100.000 Ped shot you receive 350 ped theoretical profit
much depend on how much of decay on the item is returned from the loot system, and there is no official statemetn on that

at 800% MU the situation is worse...
you loose more than the (theoretical) benefit on the efficiency, so it is only worth if you need selfhealing
NOTE: the effective damage is based on the Theor damage / 1.438 as per wiki standard

@ Morey: comparing mod evil to alpha the "better DPP leading to composition" is 0.12 or 2.73%
 

forgo

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In theory, mayhem amps should offer significantly better loot composition than mod evil too.

Higher rate of ESI, oils and all.
Yes to a slight degree although I don't think many people factor the base cost having a threshold level for getting such loot.
Mod evil excess decay bumps the threshold for all loots much more effectively. 10 ped base cost vs 14 ped base cost (or whatever the diff is), if the odds of looting a 20 ped tt item vary based on the cost as well as DPP then the tradeoff might actually be detrimental.

This principle is why I hunt with both 7% eff swine deluxe (evil on it ofc) and 80% eff mf chip regularly 100% depo free at top end cycle.

IMHO if DPP is the goal, You would be better off investing in crit gear that raises DPP for all weapons and instead of having a recurring expense in amps for higher DPP, you could effectively collect a ROI for the Crit in DPP bonus over time, no matter what amp you use.
 
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addz

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Dont suppose you would consider doing the math on the other BLP mayhem amps not just the alpha
 

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yeah - not that i know for sure - but i figure the MU cancels the mayhem amps true value, but with the lifesteal you can hunt bigger mobs and the payoff will be bigger if you hit the jackpot!
 

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yeah - not that i know for sure - but i figure the MU cancels the mayhem amps true value, but with the lifesteal you can hunt bigger mobs and the payoff will be bigger if you hit the jackpot!
Lifesteal should really not be underestimated. Saves you quite a bit in healing.
And just talking about Energy Amps.... I really prefer to not have to buy several amps for just one hunt but rather have one that lasts several. When using (L) one has also factor in the time it takes to get them. Not everyone is hunting solely on Calypso.
 

Thark

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I guess i cant delete double posts myself?
 

Thark

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Dont suppose you would consider doing the math on the other BLP mayhem amps not just the alpha
Its the exact same calculation. Only difference between those is the damage, there is no damage involved in that calculation. Everything else like decay/uses/tt is the same.

I will add the laser amps after my holiday tho.

what is the eff difference also?
I will have a looksie at that too and give you an answer this weekend. Tho, the efficiency is obviously dependant on the guns you use but for completeness i will add it :)
 

Thark

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Hey,

here, as promised the same graph for the laser and meele variants. Same methodology but for me personally it was harder to figure a fair MU for those amps. I know the mod evil MU cuz I just bought one for 3500 a month or so ago. Also I do not know the most common Laser/Melee amps!
So I compared the Imp 105 cuz I felt I heard people talk about that a fair bit (?) and I assumed a MU of 2700, cuz there is one in auction for that rn! For melee I went with Trauma 6 with a MU of 1950, same deal - there is one in auction for that price right now. I also feel this one is less fair, just cuz the unL laser amps have much less dmg. Even the 204 HC only has 32 dmg and the i105 only has 18 compared to even the Alpha Mayhem with 39 dmg. I feel that might justify quite a bit more MU on those Mayhem amps, but you be the judge of that ofc!

Also, Mod Evil seems to have gone up quite a bit actually, I see an Imp Evil in auction for +3699 right now! What happened? Did Auctuma go on holiday for a bit or sth2700? xD

Anyway, here goes, for Laser Amp - the Imp 105:
index.php


index.php


So what this shows is a little more interesting and if I had a laser weapon, I would probably pay close attention to my amp usage. With BLP the result was that Im not gonna mind using those mayhem amps but for laser we get a different picture! What can be seen here is that at current Amp MU of roughly 1500%, I can only hunt ~75 days until I will have I saved the 2700 MU of an i105! Or it shows that at 200% MU for a Mayhem amp, you never make it back. Or it shows that if you were to get them for tt, it'd take you 758 days to "make" 2700 ped. Or that for comparison, if you wanted to hunt for a year, every day, for 5h, youd need to get the mayhem amps for roughly 490%. Over all, either those mayhem amps are way overpriced (again keep in mind the massive dps difference) or that the unL laser amps are REALLY GOOD (including price).

Now on to Melee which feels even more unfair cuz of the buffs and actually this one made me rethink my methodology ALOT but I cant find an error right now, but maybe someone can do some math too and see if Im wrong here but the tldr is, mayhem melee amps are awesome and people sell them waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too cheaply! Or that the MU on unL melee amps is stupidly high. buuuut you have been warned enough about the limitations of this way of looking at stuff so here we go:

index.php


index.php


And that seems stupid to me, I mustve made some mistake here, what the fuck?! I cant find the error right now but Ill be thinking about this more when Im less distracted. But what this shows is that at current MU of 250% for Mayhem melee amps, it is ACTUALLY BETTER TO USE MAYHEM AMPS!! even if you only consider the shrapnel you lose by repairing instead of converting it! And that is without the addional buffs and what not! This continues until 415% even and it only takes you a bit over a year of using Mayhem amps at 250% to make the 1950 Ped MU of a Trauma 6 simply by converting shrapnel. That 1% will pay your trauma amp! That is crazy to me, I mustve messed up here. Anyway, if youd get the mayhem amp for tt, youd make your 2k Ped in lkess than 220 days. I dunno what to say, if this is accurate, I expect the mayhem Melee amps to raise in price to at least 600% to 1200%.

Oh I just realised, that those amps do not give any additional dmg lol! - So take all of what I "interpreted" with a mountain of salt! Well anyway, for a grinding setup this is very, very suprising to me (as a non melee user, maybe thats common knowledge?)

So there you go, hope someone can gleem some information from this, no clue what any of that means for laser/melee! maybe you guys can discuss? :)


And @warmdog , my setup is a TG-U60, but I have 64,6% eff with a mayhem amp (alpha) and 63,1% with mod evil (without any enhancers, sights etc.) Enhancers reduce the eff and Longreach/bullseye raise it. But again, gotta test this for your guns and amps or calculate it beforehand if you suspect something or wanna min/max sth specific.

Cheers!
 
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Msturlese

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Weel for laser it is perfect and it is same result as per BLP (damage wise, a H204 is over 12k these days so it is a 36 month to "save" anough MU to buy it.
I105 is more efficient and has a better DPP than any blp amps and it is reflected in price.
a 18 DPS BLP that is a "Beast" series is the equivalent of 105 106 series of laser omegaton and cost tt+150 so the better stat of I105 are priced like a 20x price multiplier comapred to Beast.
Evil series are just differetn class, no equivalent in laser if not the 37 series armatrix to make a comparison, that are as usual in BLP vs Laser, better eff and better DPP. BLP is abotu raw damage, not economy.

On melee you are totally wrong i am sorry.
loot at M matrix series.... they do not deliver DPS
they are to compare with HEALING + DEFENSE DECAY not with DPS
so you can decide if they are useful comapred to a healing chip, a fap or a resto chip (L) or unlimited.
they do not deal ANY damage. (apart item description it is reported also in wiki)
that is the problem of melee chart :)

index.php



all in all we are same as per the BLP... if you do not care Lifesteal and difference in damage, go for traditional amp under 500%
 

Thark

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yeah you are absolutely right, the melee thing doesnt make sense. I didnt realize that they didnt add any dmg until I wrote that stuff. I never used melee amps so I didnt know. Im actually thinking of deleting that part cuz its pretty misleading, even if someone were to read that wall of text xD. Ill think about it and maybe take that part out after work.

cheers
 

Aloisius

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yeah you are absolutely right, the melee thing doesnt make sense. I didnt realize that they didnt add any dmg until I wrote that stuff. I never used melee amps so I didnt know. Im actually thinking of deleting that part cuz its pretty misleading, even if someone were to read that wall of text xD. Ill think about it and maybe take that part out after work.

cheers
i think you can add the mahem amp and the trauma amp too right?>
 

Msturlese

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@ aloysius yes
a melee itm can hold 3x attachments (Trauma amp, m matrix (leech) and extender)
a range item can hold 5x attachments (1 scope 2 sights 1 amplifier and 1 extender)

the use of MMatrix is simply life steal and defense enhancement so...
it can be considered like an extra buff ring.
if i look to a left hand ring that gives 5% Lifesteal and defense buff, Xmas 19 is the perfect example
and once it was 30.000 maybe now a bit less for new ones that have arrived but still a great defense one
compared to that,. a MMatrix at 20 25 ped require 1000+ amps decay to reach same PEDs.

Wiki reports 51.063 uses so on a standard Armatrix knife they last 51.063 / 76 = 671 minutes
at 15% reload it is 671 / 1.15 = 584 Minutes of non stop swing ( 9 hours 45 minutes)
for a mace and a sword it can be double time

so 9000 hours of swing to be worth like a xmas 2019 ring (and you get bonus eff)

price is low IMHO just because
melee users are few and they already rely on restoration chips and leech rings
and use the MMatrix just killing bigger monster that need extra selfsustaining.
 

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The whole idea is flawed. Shrapnel can be converted in both cases and comparing MUs is a moot point, because evil's mu is constant whereas L amps' MU changes with every shot. Also what happens is not that you're "making back" the MU of evil, in reality you're losing as much MU. Meaning, after x L amps spent, you'll be in minus y peds from MU, whereas when you have ul amp, y is always zero (bar, obviously, price fluctuations). Finally, since we're in 2.0 what matters is the cost of tt spent, not the origin. Is irrelevant if your 100 ped ammo comes from shrapnel or from pedcard. Your perspective has merits from the p.o.v. of opportunity costs, that's why I am using L amps instead of investing in an ul amp for mining, but for the rest is kind of fundamentally wrong. True amortization of Mayhem amps is whatever tt income would result from efficiency gain. Say the combo would have extra 10 efficiency compared to ul, then that's 0,7% of your turnover, so per 10k tt spent you're seeing 70 peds more. So if this hypotethical amp would cost 71 peds in MU per 10k tt spent, you're losing. Where you could make a very good parallel is how this eff gain behaves in the case of two combos, (L) gun+ul amp vs ul gun+(L)amp, meaning if you want to reach this much dps which of two combos is better off. From your perspective, a worthy point would be comparison to fen/a&p/high dps ul guns. There is where MU of L amps become a convenient trade-off (but still a trade-off), not mod evil.
 
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Thark

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Hey m8,

apreciate the different perspective! I totally forgot about this thread as I only wanted to share my findings as an fyi and didnt plan on persuing this further but I am gonna prune that melee amp thing when i find the time (gonna set an alarm so i dont forget, again)

Anywho, I feel like adressing one of the critizisms you raised, because i think there are tons of issues with this comparison, hence my many warnings but this one isnt one of them, at least I dont understand why it would be:

The evil does decay more instead of using ammo. Hence you use ped from your ped card to make up the "tt spend" instead of using uni ammo. Say you cycled 10k ped or something, the mayhem amps decay very little but use ammo instead, the evil decays 666ped but uses less ammo. I did rough math on the difference. This was not about the tt return, at no point does the efficiency or dpp really come into play here as this is simply a comparison of the difference of how much "MU" in shrapnel is "lost".

But I agree, that this is not a total or absolute picture. And everyone is free to add data or effects or what ever for their own calculations on what to do. This simply looks at the MU of shrapnel vs. the mu of the mayhem amps. I also dont quite understand why the mayhems MU isnt constant, unless people regularly buy and sell used mayhem amps, which i wasnt aware of. If i bought a full amp, used it till 0ped, the mu i paid for every shot was constant. But yes indeed, i didnt add any mu to the evils calculation.

When you say:
Also what happens is not that you're "making back" the MU of evil, in reality you're losing as much MU. Meaning, after x L amps spent, you'll be in minus y peds from MU
I think you hit the nail on the head, thats what that graph was meant to show. But i calculated how many days of 5h hunts it would take for you to lose the MU of one mod evil.

I hope that makes it more clear, but again tt return wasnt looked at or included in the calculations here here. But yeah, feel free to do so in your own calculations and indeed, i do too in my spreadsheets :)

Cheers

Edit: maybe my initial post wasnt clear and i cant share the excel right now since im not at home this week and even if I was, i did that on my "play around sheet" in my normal PE excel file so I couldnt easily share it anyway.

But what I did was: (rough math here, now, as i cant check entropedia)
1 mayhem amp has 50k uses, one evil about 10k, so you need to repair the evil for 3300ped to use it as many times. Thats 33 ped in "lost mu" since i didnt convert it all into shrapnel. So if the ONLY thing you look it is shrapnel conversion then if you pay more than 33 ped in MU for the blp mayhem amp, you lose money. And ofc this leaves the 10 ped mayhem amp tt, and a whole bunch of other effects out but those effects werent my aim. You see what Im trying to say? Thats also how "you make the 3500 ped mod evil cost back". Like, if you got the mayhem amps for tt, youd make 33 ped every time you used one up instead of using the mod evil.
I thought that was interesting
 
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Lefty

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(L)BLP + (UL) amp user here. All I can say is, my loot is dramatically better with Dante as opposed to Evil, never mind the higher dps.This is consistent over a wide variety of (L) guns (I grab whatever is easily found on the auction).
 

Msturlese

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1 mayhem amp has 50k uses, one evil about 10k, so you need to repair the evil for 3300ped to use it as many times. Thats 33 ped in "lost mu" since i didnt convert it all into shrapnel. So if the ONLY thing you look it is shrapnel conversion then if you pay more than 33 ped in MU for the blp mayhem amp, you lose money. And ofc this leaves the 10 ped mayhem amp tt, and a whole bunch of other effects out but those effects werent my aim. You see what Im trying to say? Thats also how "you make the 3500 ped mod evil cost back". Like, if you got the mayhem amps for tt, youd make 33 ped every time you used one up instead of using the mod evil.
I thought that was interesting
The assumption is boundary because assumes that a full Amp decay lead to 100% shrapnel return
from empirical evidence Calypso is about 80%..85% shrapnels and outer planets is less
what i derive is mainly
first 40ish ped on a mayhem amp is for the effect, the rest is for life steal..... at 50+ ped per amp a 2% life steal ring is financed fast......

second argument is
Mayhem amps , like ELM weapons, are sold at prices that make their use a sure economic loss.
teh rest of calculations about time of financing a UL amp are of course price/loss per amp and the chart are really self.explanatory. thanks for sharing all the info
 
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I would assign a 0.5% markup advantage to the UA conversion, not the 1%. After all you can always sell the shrapnel at 100.5% pretty easily, and to buy shrapnel to supplement your dwindling supply you will have to pay this markup as well. This would cut your numbers in half out of favour for the mayhem amp.
 
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