Behold the Omegaton CraftMeister Mk. I - The future of Crafting!

[DrGirlfriend]

Just please MA I’d you do this make sure it’s part of the plot system

and someone sell me a plot! Please wake up plot owners and sell me one ahha

 

[Atrax]

Sure I hear you, that's why I was clear that this actually is edging into an area where you have to be pretty deep into things to have a solid feel for it.

I don't think it's fair as a crafter that any hunter can jump into my profession, crafting, and have the same results as me, but I can't do the same and jump into hunting and immediately, without significant investment, have the same results as any other hunter.

They're going to have to grind up the same skill, and QR as you also. Of course you can grind your hunting skill levels as high as you like before you pick up any of the top tier gear. But also a low level player on (L) gear can definitely achieve or surpass the TT percentage returns of an uber hunter fully decked out.

No real negativity, just noting that as a casual it seems like an awfully high bar, and including CoS increases in the current crafting model imply a change to TT returns. This means that literally nobody who hasn't gone this deep could be economically competitive.

Right now advancing in crafting is definitely just more and more of the same. I understand people already deep into that want some way to expand, or do more. If the CoS affects actual success rate (product vs. res) and not TT returns then it shouldn't be a concern for anyone dabbling. Much like the hunting situation, where you can get to a stable return percentage with 'lesser' gear - but you need to go next level to keep your loot quality up and farm MV.

But yep that's also why the 'point' on the 2 PEC comment.

I'm not deep enough to be really constructive on this one. Just wanted to express my fear. (concern? whatever...)

Another edit. "Economically competitive" isn't exactly the right term there. I hope you can see what I'm saying, it's about personal economy, not "the economy" as this would give an (admittedly earned) edge in terms of participating in the player economy. But for the TT cycle QR is already there to meter personal stability in much the same way as looter levels do now.

 

[Legends]

They're going to have to grind up the same skill, and QR as you also. Of course you can grind your hunting skill levels as high as you like before you pick up any of the top tier gear. But also a low level player on (L) gear can definitely achieve or surpass the TT percentage returns of an uber hunter fully decked out.

No real negativity, just noting that as a casual it seems like an awfully high bar, and including CoS increases in the current crafting model imply a change to TT returns. This means that literally nobody who hasn't gone this deep could be economically competitive.

Not necessarily. There could be machines that do, but I wasn't necessarily asking for that. Right now a maxed QR 100 BP (or maxed limited BP with a 95% SR) will give you 40 successes per 100 clicks, that's 2.5 clicks for each success. It's possible to raise that by just switching out the multiplier table and without raising tt returns. For instance, you would go from something like:

x0 (fails) = 10% chance
x0.25 = 15% chance
x0.50 = 15% chance
x0.75 = 15% chance
x1.00 = 15% chance
x2.50 = 10% chance
x5.00 = 5% chance
x10.00 = 5% chance
x25.00 = 4% chance
x50 = 3% chance
x100 = 2% chance
x1000 = 0.5% chance
....etc...

To something like:
x0 (fails) = 20% chance
x0.15 = 20% chance
x1.10 = 30% chance
x2.50 = 10% chance
x5.00 = 5% chance
x10.00 = 5% chance
x25.00 = 4% chance
x50 = 3% chance
x100 = 2% chance
x1000 = 0.5% chance
...etc...

I haven't done the math on this to see what the mean average returns would be, I'm just trying to illustrate that the multiplier table can be manipulated so as to end up with more successes overall, way higher than the current 40%, and still provide the same tt returns.

And the point of that is to give a way for professional crafters to gain an edge through investment in better equipment. Some of the things that this would be tremendously beneficial for would be High Grade Plugs, GeoTrek Hardened EnBolts, Enhanced Talytic Converters, that kind of thing that through the process of cumulative losses from one component to the next and to the next end up being extremely costly to make, especially when the mats are very expensive.

But to even get there requires significant investment and dedication because you'd have to bring 3 blueprints to QR 100, not an easy feat, I don't even have 1 of the 3 I mentionned above at QR 100 yet.

Right now advancing in crafting is definitely just more and more of the same. I understand people already deep into that want some way to expand, or do more. If the CoS affects actual success rate (product vs. res) and not TT returns then it shouldn't be a concern for anyone dabbling. Much like the hunting situation, where you can get to a stable return percentage with 'lesser' gear - but you need to go next level to keep your loot quality up and farm MV.

But yep that's also why the 'point' on the 2 PEC comment.

I'm not deep enough to be really constructive on this one. Just wanted to express my fear. (concern? whatever...)

Another edit. "Economically competitive" isn't exactly the right term there. I hope you can see what I'm saying, it's about personal economy, not "the economy" as this would give an (admittedly earned) edge in terms of participating in the player economy. But for the TT cycle QR is already there to meter personal stability in much the same way as looter levels do now.

No, it's not a fair comparisson. QR is easy compared to Looter. Most prints need around 20k clicks to bring up to 100, so at 780 clicks/hour, that just takes like 25.5 hours. Yes it has to be repeated for all the various BPs someone is going to be using, but it's easy (and sometimes surprisingly cheap) to buy a QR 100 BP, whereas for Looter 100, I don't even want to think about how much money it would take to transfer over that much skill, just insane. So I don't think that's a fair comparisson. It just means it's easier for someone to switch over to crafting and start competing with uber crafters, there's not much of a barrier there compared to the current barrier if I wanted to go compete with the uber hunters.

In crafting we don't actually have an equivalent, once you max out a non-SIB print, you are stuck at 90% tt returns forever. And I guess MA doesn't feel any urgency to deal with this since they know that crafters will just pass on any tt losses to hunters and miners through the markup they will charge on the item.

So you see, MA takes from the crafters, then the crafters have no choice but to take from the hunters and miners. If MA fixed this, items would be cheaper, actually.

 

[Thark]

Not necessarily. There could be machines that do, but I wasn't necessarily asking for that. Right now a maxed QR 100 BP (or maxed limited BP with a 95% SR) will give you 40 successes per 100 clicks, that's 2.5 clicks for each success. It's possible to raise that by just switching out the multiplier table and without raising tt returns. For instance, you would go from something like:

x0 (fails) = 10% chance
x0.25 = 15% chance
x0.50 = 15% chance
x0.75 = 15% chance
x1.00 = 15% chance
x2.50 = 10% chance
x5.00 = 5% chance
x10.00 = 5% chance
x25.00 = 4% chance
x50 = 3% chance
x100 = 2% chance
x1000 = 0.5% chance
....etc...

To something like:
x0 (fails) = 20% chance
x0.15 = 20% chance
x1.10 = 30% chance
x2.50 = 10% chance
x5.00 = 5% chance
x10.00 = 5% chance
x25.00 = 4% chance
x50 = 3% chance
x100 = 2% chance
x1000 = 0.5% chance
...etc...

I haven't done the math on this to see what the mean average returns would be, I'm just trying to illustrate that the multiplier table can be manipulated so as to end up with more successes overall, way higher than the current 40%, and still provide the same tt returns.

And the point of that is to give a way for professional crafters to gain an edge through investment in better equipment. Some of the things that this would be tremendously beneficial for would be High Grade Plugs, GeoTrek Hardened EnBolts, Enhanced Talytic Converters, that kind of thing that through the process of cumulative losses from one component to the next and to the next end up being extremely costly to make, especially when the mats are very expensive.

But to even get there requires significant investment and dedication because you'd have to bring 3 blueprints to QR 100, not an easy feat, I don't even have 1 of the 3 I mentionned above at QR 100 yet.





No, it's not a fair comparisson. QR is easy compared to Looter. Most prints need around 20k clicks to bring up to 100, so at 780 clicks/hour, that just takes like 25.5 hours. Yes it has to be repeated for all the various BPs someone is going to be using, but it's easy (and sometimes surprisingly cheap) to buy a QR 100 BP, whereas for Looter 100, I don't even want to think about how much money it would take to transfer over that much skill, just insane. So I don't think that's a fair comparisson. It just means it's easier for someone to switch over to crafting and start competing with uber crafters, there's not much of a barrier there compared to the current barrier if I wanted to go compete with the uber hunters.

In crafting we don't actually have an equivalent, once you max out a non-SIB print, you are stuck at 90% tt returns forever. And I guess MA doesn't feel any urgency to deal with this since they know that crafters will just pass on any tt losses to hunters and miners through the markup they will charge on the item.

So you see, MA takes from the crafters, then the crafters have no choice but to take from the hunters and miners. If MA fixed this, items would be cheaper, actually.

That brings up the question tho, do we want/need a specific crafter to have an edge over other crafters? I mean I totally understand the personal motivation of wanting to work towards something and to be able to have a cool and unique way to outdo another competing crafter. And to not feel like you maxed your profession and potential so quickly compared to hunting. (tho I guess mining is even worse off in that respect?)

But I simply dont know enough about the crafting/mining economy to know how that would affect the market. Like, would that maybe lead to fewer crafters cuz they feel they cant compete with the prices of those others who have a higher success rate? If the whole point is to give a few crafters a higher % chance on a successful craft, then that would only really affect MU on the items they craft, pushing all the other crafters out? Whats the point in crafting if you cant get one of those machines and compete with the ones who have one. Those would always be able to sell for a lower % and what not. ( you can prolly see how I know shit about crafting/EU-economy lol=

Anyone able to elaborate on the impact that would have on the market as a whole? (obv. speculate I guess)

 

[Atrax]

I think we're on the same page then, thanks for clarifying.

This first model harnesses the power of QR 100 blueprints to multiply the rate of success over time.

To me, if you can buy CoS this machine looks like a game breaker.

If the CoS affects actual success rate (product vs. res) and not TT returns then it shouldn't be a concern for anyone dabbling.

I'm just trying to illustrate that the multiplier table can be manipulated so as to end up with more successes overall, way higher than the current 40%, and still provide the same tt returns

You did say "rate of success" and I heard "chance of success". I wanted to clarify, and it's clear now. This exactly addresses what I was trying to say. For a player where I'm at it's not as significant if you have an economic edge (mv) over another high level armor or weapons crafter. As long as you're not buying TT.


As far as this:

Choose to focus on better returns or raw throughput.

I understand and I have wished to be able to craft faster as well,

As stated, from my perspective, yadda yadda perhaps this thing could offer some speed options. From the levels I'm at (15 - 20 in most crafting professions) this isn't actually as overwhelming as messing with returns would be. Which you clarified you aren't talking about.

What I think about this is that if you put a slider that balances the available changes to rate of success with rate of speed somehow, that may be ok. Just a thought. If you want the speed, you take the same risk. Honestly personally I see that as riskier anyways as all the other aspects of the loot engine come into play.

Also it crafts 10x the cost and gives 10x the amount so it’s faster too, also 3x the click rate. So 30x the crafting speed for large craft runs

Mind the waves! I'm not sure I would do an hour's worth of turnover in 2 minutes

On the relative professional expense, again I don't feel qualified to address the balance of that. If you think it's significantly more expensive to get to, say level 50 Laser Rifle and level 50 Animal Looter, with level appropriate gear than it is to get to, say level 50 Laser Weapons Engineer and level 50 in the required component crafting, with a level appropriate collection of BPs - I have to take your word for it. It's not important what level just laying out my presumed basis for comparison.

I do wonder though, once you're ready for this level of activity - with the plots, the plot levels, the machine, etc... all the costs to get this thing set up and running, what are we talking about here?

Is this a loot 2.0 150k sword, or a 250k MF chip? LR 40? Obviously I'm not going there, and plots will vary with market but can you loosely ballpark it for me? How much are you looking to spend, to get this? It's going to be something you can do over time, as presented, so that's a little less of a hurdle.

First BP slot is unlocked for everyone (level 0)
Second BP slot unlocks at level 20
Third unlocks at level 40

In this case it's much better than, say, using an unmaxed weapon. Once there are a few in game you could buy this, and use it to level up from 0?

Anyone able to elaborate on the impact that would have on the market as a whole? (obv. speculate I guess)

For me this goes back to the effective rate of success issue. It's that RCE realism that says if you can acquire a bigger workshop, or automate part of your process, once you pay off your investment you're able to deliver more and/or cheaper product.

I'm not sure if people in general want it, but if it's balanced right it's not entirely unreasonable. You might want to get some out a little faster than proposed above, though. It's a realistic (real world) scenario with the machine but depending on that rate of success, it could be quite the advantage.

 

[jak]

Hehe love it. Cool addition!

Do you imagine this as exclusively a private thing in your own home or as a public thing in some crafting hot spots?

Can everybody get one or would you like a limited supply, like ... 10 "advanced robot assembling unit", looted from i dunno, rx units in some event? (Should prolly be mined/crafted tho?)

The machine can be either used only by land plot owner if he has his plot private or used by anyone if he leaves his plot public! And of course he can set a small % of how much he gets if someone uses his mechine!!!

 

[DrGirlfriend]

Here is a key feature for increasing crafting

the machine cannot increase QR.
so regular crafting gets less results than the machine but is the only way to make QR

 

[Legends]

That brings up the question tho, do we want/need a specific crafter to have an edge over other crafters? I mean I totally understand the personal motivation of wanting to work towards something and to be able to have a cool and unique way to outdo another competing crafter. And to not feel like you maxed your profession and potential so quickly compared to hunting. (tho I guess mining is even worse off in that respect?)

But I simply dont know enough about the crafting/mining economy to know how that would affect the market. Like, would that maybe lead to fewer crafters cuz they feel they cant compete with the prices of those others who have a higher success rate? If the whole point is to give a few crafters a higher % chance on a successful craft, then that would only really affect MU on the items they craft, pushing all the other crafters out? Whats the point in crafting if you cant get one of those machines and compete with the ones who have one. Those would always be able to sell for a lower % and what not. ( you can prolly see how I know shit about crafting/EU-economy lol=

Anyone able to elaborate on the impact that would have on the market as a whole? (obv. speculate I guess)

I think the obvious utility of this machine is to use it to obtain greater output of extremely expensive crafted components such as Enhanced Talytic Converters.

These guys (Enhanced Talytic Converters) are required for making the highest level ArMatrix weapons and amps. They are currently selling for 400% on the auction. To make them, you need GeoTrek Hardened EnBolts, which are also going for 400%. The whole thing is a friggin nightmare and 40% Success Rate on this stuff is a real kick in the balls.

If a pro crafter could invest in a machine that could give them a steady 50% Success Rate, that would make those components a bit cheaper to make and give those with the machine a nice little advantage.

I think, as long as MA doesn't flood the game with these machines, the only area where they are likely to be used is for dealing with really expensive components such as these. So in the end, it just makes it a little more difficult for somone without such a machine to compete on THOSE components, most of the other components would not be touched (because of the 15 ped cost of replacing the BPs makes it not really worth it).

As stated, from my perspective, yadda yadda perhaps this thing could offer some speed options. From the levels I'm at (15 - 20 in most crafting professions) this isn't actually as overwhelming as messing with returns would be. Which you clarified you aren't talking about.

What I think about this is that if you put a slider that balances the available changes to rate of success with rate of speed somehow, that may be ok. Just a thought. If you want the speed, you take the same risk. Honestly personally I see that as riskier anyways as all the other aspects of the loot engine come into play.

Professional crafters don't need speed. Professional crafters should not be bothering with 10 pec clicks. They should be buying their Standard Plates and Filters from other crafters. The idea here is not to create a tool that gives the biggest wallet a monopoly on the whole of the crafting business, the idea is to make it possible for them to invest in tools where they can improve their numbers a bit to give them a slight edge against others who aren't prepared to invest their money in crafting.

On the relative professional expense, again I don't feel qualified to address the balance of that. If you think it's significantly more expensive to get to, say level 50 Laser Rifle and level 50 Animal Looter, with level appropriate gear than it is to get to, say level 50 Laser Weapons Engineer and level 50 in the required component crafting, with a level appropriate collection of BPs - I have to take your word for it. It's not important what level just laying out my presumed basis for comparison.

Well right now we're only talking about component crafting.

MA did an awesome job with Gizmos which did 2 things that really changed everything for crafters:

1. It made it possible for lower level players to skill Armor Engineer, Weapon Engineer and Attachement Engineer at very low cost
2. It created a limited BP economy (ArMatrix and AP plates mostly, but also others like P20 and mining amps limited BPs)

But now, anyone can essentially do it for free, anyone can click Gizmos and skill very quickly to the point they can make any ArMatrix weapon and amp, and any AP plate, even the high level ones.

So competition is growing and I feel there is a need for better equipement to be released that the serious crafters who are in it for the long haul can invest in.

I do wonder though, once you're ready for this level of activity - with the plots, the plot levels, the machine, etc... all the costs to get this thing set up and running, what are we talking about here?

Is this a loot 2.0 150k sword, or a 250k MF chip? LR 40? Obviously I'm not going there, and plots will vary with market but can you loosely ballpark it for me? How much are you looking to spend, to get this? It's going to be something you can do over time, as presented, so that's a little less of a hurdle.

It doesn't have to be deployed on a Land Plot, it can be deployed in an apartement or any estate with at least 100 item points.

The machine itself could very easily be worth between 20-40k.

Later, when factories can be built on Land Plots, perhaps the Land Plots can provide additional functionality to these machines.

 

[DrGirlfriend]

Nah man the key idea of this is faster crafting.

it takes ages to make 1000000 basic filters, this machine can speed up those cheap basic crafts

If this machine is anything but a land plot mechanism it is a failed concept

land plots need purpose, other estates have plenty of purpose already.

 

[Legends]

Nah man the key idea of this is faster crafting.

it takes ages to make 1000000 basic filters, this machine can speed up those cheap basic crafts

If this machine is anything but a land plot mechanism it is a failed concept

land plots need purpose, other estates have plenty of purpose already.

MA has a different concept in mind for Land Plot "factories" and I don't want to detract from that.

If you want to know what I think that concept is, just look at my wishlist thread, under "Land Plots", it's all explained in detail there. Link

 

[DrGirlfriend]

MA has a different concept in mind for Land Plot "factories" and I don't want to detract from that.

If you want to know what I think that concept is, just look at my wishlist thread, under "Land Plots", it's all explained in detail there. Link

How do you know that? You mean YOU have a different concept in mind? That thread is just suggestions from you and not a post from MA

 

[Legends]

How do you know that? You mean YOU have a different concept in mind? That thread is just suggestions from you and not a post from MA

I do not know, I said I think:

MA has a different concept in mind for Land Plot "factories" and I don't want to detract from that.

If you want to know what I think that concept is, just look at my wishlist thread, under "Land Plots", it's all explained in detail there. Link

 

[DrGirlfriend]

I do not know, I said I think:

I was referencing the top portion not the bottom half of your post. How do you know MA has a different plan for factories? Not looking to argue semantics or pick a fight just hoping for more info. Thanks Legends.

 

[Legends]

I was referencing the top portion not the bottom half of your post. How do you know MA has a different plan for factories? Not looking to argue semantics or pick a fight just hoping for more info. Thanks Legends.

If you follow the links I've given and read what MA has stated, you can see that they are dropping hints of a new crafting system (probably running in parallel with existing one) that resembles more the EVE Online crafting system where time is the commodity consumed in exchange for "items" (whatever is produced at the end of the process).

The link I gave above takes you to my post where I provide another link to the exact statement from MA in regards to this.

The fact that Land Plots already have the word "factories" built into their UI to me indicates this is the obvious place to implement such a system.

Just follow the links and read. And if it doesn't sink in right away, read it again, as many times as required.

 

[Legends]

Bump

 

[Legends]

Bump!

 

[Legends]

I want one, I really really want one!

 

[The Mind]

Im late to the party, but will share my 2 pec since this post is bumped.

Crafting:
Crafting would be divided in 2 worlds: those that own this machine and those that dont.
This would be done through the market: everyone would expect to buy comps (and items crafted from those comps) as if those were made at the machine cost, basically excluding everyone who cant meet the competition (non crafters and crafters alike). Doesnt matter how many comps for different levels there would be. Crafter with the machine could craft/affect them all.

Crafting for casual crafters:
Nowadays if you have a gun/finder/BP and you have the skill, ingame, to use it, you can achieve the same theoretical return as everyone else.
And if you gathered all of those you have the same right to participate in the profession as everyone else.

"Chance of the effective rate of success" (core idea):
We all know how the outcome of the crafting attempts works (from Alukat123 crafting guide):

"Fail: no loot at all
near success: ~25%, ~50%, ~90% return of the click-costs (before condition multiplier), return can happen in getting raw materials back or residue
success: ~100-110% return of the click costs (without any multipliers)"

By increasing the rate of success you will manipulate your TT returns by getting more of 100-110% outcomes smoothing out the returns.
Drawndons are the core part of every profession in this game and affects casuals and ubers alike. Solution: proper bankroll managment.

Crafting is also the only profession that guarantees the outcome of the item. Hunters/miners have to rely on "chance to drop" for everything.

With all this in mind i think this machine provides an extreme, hence unfair, advantage to the owner in current state of the game. Not only vs fellow crafters, but vs everyone.
And the level of entrance, suggested at a plot + machine installation + potential upgrades, will make that only a sellect few will benefit from it.