Chicken Little's Open Letter to EU

[Shadowsong]

Whenever there is a discussion around the sustainability of EU, one of the arguments put forth by those who believe EU will never crash is the following:

"Massive withdrawals cannot hurt EU, because somebody else had to deposit to buy the skills/gear/whatever, so money comes in to replace the money leaving"

Until two days ago, that argument was difficult to refute. Now consider what has happened during the "ongoing exploit investigation", during which numerous accounts were temporarily locked.

To the best of our knowledge, this "exploit" resulted in an account or accounts, being credited with amounts in excess of the actual deposits made. These "surplus funds" (or imaginary funds, if you like) were then apparently spent in a high-end shopping spree, purchasing numerous expensive items, from skill implants to armour.

So far, not a single avatar has reported that any of these transactions has been reversed. The items and skills are gone, and the ped remain. The totally imaginary, undeposited, fake peds have suddenly become very real, and are available for withdrawal. As far as we know.

So we have a situation where an unkown number of ped can be withdrawn as dollars, without the requisite influx of dollars to balance the system. Where does that leave us? Can we be as confident in the sustainability of this universe as we thought, when we have such a clear example that one of the building blocks of this confidence may be flawed?

Now before you all yell that it's an exceptional case, very rare, and that MA dealt with it swiftly, let me say this very clearly :
I AGREE WITH ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

HOWEVER.
I do not believe that MA has dealt with it correctly.

If the imaginary peds are allowed to remain in EU as real cash, and we have no indication of whether the items will remain in circulation - (remember, they were bought with imaginary peds, so even their TT value is 100% profit to whoever has them, but they have no value to MA as input into the system) - then we must acknowledge that the universe has been unbalanced. Only MA can know by how much, and only MA can tell us how the balance is to be restored, without effectively punishing the NON-EXPLOITING players through reduced loot, increased bug decays and other loss-inducing mechanisms. Oh, and those are quite prevalent at the moment.

I think this is damaging EU far more than many would like to admit. One of my mates described this as yet another "take more" VU, and I'm worried he may be right.

So, feel free to preface your responses with the usual chorus of "the sky is falling", but understand that there are a number of people who are very concerned about how this is resolved.

 

[Rayne Jade]

...Now consider what has happened during the "ongoing exploit investigation", during which numerous accounts were temporarily locked...

Please tell me more about this part... did I miss a thread stating (confirming) there is such an investigation?

EDIT: Disregard.... I think I found it

 

[J. Mandrake]

Hmmm... so who is locking these accounts, MA or some hackers? It would be helpful to my post if I knew the specs of the problem, I guess.

 

[Norbert]

Good post Shadowsong


Firstly I don't believe the locks and the quite alarming bugs are related (see link below).

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/bug-reports/113943-warning-missing-loot-9.html#post1361439

I think this is just bad timing and the bugs becoming known at the same time, but really i believe MA should post something about these serious issues - but thats another subject..

As for the fake ped in circulation we can only hope that the amount involved is not huge, and that MA can input an amount of revenue to maintain the balance of the economy. I'm fairly sure that if a huge amount was involved that transactions would have been tracked and undone - presuming that it was caught in time.

again good post - is late here in UK, I'll sleep on it and have a think.

 

[Badger]

it would be worrying if it was a common occurrence on a mass scale. However, this is an isolated incident and probably very unlikely to happen again given its severity. The sky is NOT falling

 

[DanielleYourMom]

I just think the items should be returned to their rightful owners - to be resold at a later date.

Don't care much for the idea of these imaginary peds in the equation.

Good post Shadow

 

[Shadowsong]

it would be worrying if it was a common occurrence on a mass scale. However, this is an isolated incident and probably very unlikely to happen again given its severity. The sky is NOT falling

The thing that concerns me is that we do not now how severe this incident was, and it is unlikely that we will. Call me a pessimist, but I am hugely mistrustful of anyone who conceals the extent of a problem, because it generally indicates that it is larger than meets the eye.

I also do not believe in unsinkable ships. If it can float, it can sink.

 

[Rumsponge]

As I understand your post and other threads on EF,

-Someone managed to "deposit" non-existant money and MA gave them PEDs for it.

-Said person(S) then purchased a bunch of high-dollar items with their ill-gotten PEDs.

-MA found out about it and reclaimed said items from the alleged perpetrators.

Am I correct so far?

If so, someone essentially forced MA to buy a bunch of items which were then removed from circulation. The original owners were paid, MA has the items which they can put back into circulation through loot drops or simply retire from the game.

There seems to be no net change aside from the fact that item prices may actually go up in price because of all of this stupidity. And, if you are concerned about MA's losses, consider that their operational budget must be on the scale of $100k to $1 million per week, so I seriously doubt this will make a dent.

...unless it has been going on for much longer than it seems.

 

[Rayne Jade]

We may never know exactly what happened... and I would actually be surprised if we did know the whole story. Basic principles of an investigation are that you do not reveal all the aspects of the "crime", nor do you recite the specifics of how it was done. Especially true when the investigation in happening. By revealing all, this just informs people how the bad guys were caught and will quickly turn into a lesson on what "not to do" - meaning it turns into how to succeed next time.

MA's reaction seemed harsh, but I understand their point of view. If there is/are bogus PED floating around in the RCE it up to them to clean it up. It is THEIR universe after all. It is basically the same as paying for a Big Mac at the McDonald's drive thru window with a counterfeit $20 bill. If it is detected, you are out $20... it is not up to McDonald's to replace your bogus bill... same at your bank.

The good of the "whole" outweighed the good of the few this time. If an exploit regarding depositing went unchecked the entire RCE would be in danger and the results much worse than a few players being locked out for a few days (if it was even that long...)

In hindsight, I would rather be questioned in a murder investigation and CLEARED as opposed to dragging a cloud of suspicion around. Best thing might be to take note of those NOT cleared

Very happy for those that are cleared and are now unlocked. Best of luck!

 

[AlphaGeek]

Interesting theory, Shadowsong.

My guess is if that is what happened, that a large amount of PEDs were introduced to the in-game economy without RL funds behind them, then the balancing manager would simply squeeze the loot a bit harder till the balance sheet returns to what the MA beancounters consider nominal.

Without some statement from MA, we'd be none the wiser, save for the subjective "getting even less loot" feeling... and such a statement from MA would be bad press. As such, an announcement like that would never see the light of day.

AG

 

[-=rAndom=-]

I would say that if they would undo transactions they would broke their own policy of all trades being final, which would in turn make some players sick.

Anyway I guess that items / skills bought with false ped will be resold by MA avatar (depending on amount and if MA will care), and loss after this (as many of those items were AFAIK sold above markup) will be MA loss, not squeezed from players by "balancing manager".

As to "correct" handling. MA didn't sent email to many (AFAIK) or any explanation before ppl actually asked on support, which I find lame.

 

[JackFree]

Whenever there is a discussion around the sustainability of EU, one of the arguments put forth by those who believe EU will never crash is the following:

"Massive withdrawals cannot hurt EU, because somebody else had to deposit to buy the skills/gear/whatever, so money comes in to replace the money leaving"

Until two days ago, that argument was difficult to refute. Now consider what has happened during the "ongoing exploit investigation", during which numerous accounts were temporarily locked.

To the best of our knowledge, this "exploit" resulted in an account or accounts, being credited with amounts in excess of the actual deposits made. These "surplus funds" (or imaginary funds, if you like) were then apparently spent in a high-end shopping spree, purchasing numerous expensive items, from skill implants to armour.

So far, not a single avatar has reported that any of these transactions has been reversed. The items and skills are gone, and the ped remain. The totally imaginary, undeposited, fake peds have suddenly become very real, and are available for withdrawal. As far as we know.

So we have a situation where an unkown number of ped can be withdrawn as dollars, without the requisite influx of dollars to balance the system. Where does that leave us? Can we be as confident in the sustainability of this universe as we thought, when we have such a clear example that one of the building blocks of this confidence may be flawed?

Now before you all yell that it's an exceptional case, very rare, and that MA dealt with it swiftly, let me say this very clearly :
I AGREE WITH ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

HOWEVER.
I do not believe that MA has dealt with it correctly.

If the imaginary peds are allowed to remain in EU as real cash, and we have no indication of whether the items will remain in circulation - (remember, they were bought with imaginary peds, so even their TT value is 100% profit to whoever has them, but they have no value to MA as input into the system) - then we must acknowledge that the universe has been unbalanced. Only MA can know by how much, and only MA can tell us how the balance is to be restored, without effectively punishing the NON-EXPLOITING players through reduced loot, increased bug decays and other loss-inducing mechanisms. Oh, and those are quite prevalent at the moment.

I think this is damaging EU far more than many would like to admit. One of my mates described this as yet another "take more" VU, and I'm worried he may be right.

So, feel free to preface your responses with the usual chorus of "the sky is falling", but understand that there are a number of people who are very concerned about how this is resolved.

Since we do not know how MA actually handled it, and what they are still doing about it, it is all speculation...

At this point, a statement from MA about the situation would be useful. Marco? Frank?...

Cheers

 

[Nor Alien]

Just a quick thought.... Every company has an insurance policy against one thing or another..... Visa, Master Card, You with a house or a car or your life.... Big businesses are no exception... in fact they have the most comprehensive policies around... Protecting them from all sorts of things imaginable. I would expect that they would have this covered as well. They would have to, due to the fact that they are dealing with peoples money. Same a Visa or Master Card. They have insurance to cover the fraud so the card holder does not have to. You can't even get into business without some way to protect your clients.

As for weather or not we would see a decrease in loot or that Mind Ark, as a company, is at risk... that would be speculation at best... So relax and enjoy a beverage... Untill the sky actually falls... we can only ride this adventure with our heads held high, or find a nice corner and cower untill its over...

 

[aridash]

the premise is incorrect because MA has backed those peds. the balance problem is on thier balance sheet so it matters little unless they wish to punish the community by taking from the loot pool, which i dont believe would be the case. And in any case, we are talking at worse a few $10k which is fairly insignificant on a economy wide basis. and then...

If so, someone essentially forced MA to buy a bunch of items which were then removed from circulation. The original owners were paid, MA has the items which they can put back into circulation through loot drops or simply retire from the game.

if this is the case there will be the dollar deposits to back the items. looking forward to a couple of Cronicle drops, great timing for WoF final

 

[Morat]

Isn't the interesting thing that whatever has happened it is ultimately MA's responsibility - they own the game, code it, manage security and so forth.

However their response is to penalise the paying players - hopefully in a way that will be quickly resolved and not leave these people locked for a long time or perhaps for ever?

And if their loss is ultimately recovered through loot adjustment as some speculate then the whole player base will be paying for their error.

Not the response of a customer oriented company I think - but then I think we know that by now.

I wish they would shape up and value the people who pay the bills - us.

 

[AJack10600]

There really should be some official communication from MA...

 

[Pirx Danford]

There really should be some official communication from MA...

Yes there should.
But given that MA is quite clumsy sometimes in their wording - AND know this - they are smart enough and don't state anything at all, cause if they do and mess it up as usual they face legal consequences from what they disclose.
In business there is nothing like: just a harmless notice.
If you do make any legally binding statements then you have a problem.
And again, MA does know they are not too good on the "communication" part,
at least they have learnt THAT by now

This is not meant negative - I really believe its smart for them not to state anything.
But I hope they will state something soon.

 

[NightwolfAA2k5]

Speaking of official communication, has anyone seen Marco on the forums lately?

- Nightwolf

 

[Berul]

Thinks like that have to be adressed fast and clear. MA has to investigate and after make a public statement about what happened with locking accounts and all those items and peds.
But as usual, nothing will be reveleaded, just accounts unlocked and more rumors to the snowball. If MA wants a clear community, can start by themselves first, same history like scammers, case closed.

 

[Lee]

The main problem here is that everything is speculation and rumour only(other than the known fact that a lot of accounts got locked, many unlocked by now once 'cleared').

It seems that not even those people got any definitive answer about exactly what happened and of course what the company is doing to solve the problem is up to them and very unlikely they will ever tell us (my bank was one of many that recently had a problem with cloned atm and credit cards getting used, we never hear more about that crime or what is being done about it really, just each individual account holder's situation gets resolved and that's that, they don't have any responsibility really to tell us the dirty details, if it is a newsworthy crime we may read it in the news, but not from the banks).

I was told that it wasn't 'fake' or 'imaginary' ped in game, but stolen money deposited in game, ie credit card fraud. Never understood how anyone not directly involved could have even that much information unless MA themselves said it, and I understand they haven't said anything yet, so to me, none of us has a clue what happened, so I won't be watching for the sky to fall just yet

PS I don't see them 'undoing' the transactions either, they will take the loss, they have insurance as someone else said

 

[dry_martini]

Perhaps the Swedish press should be asking MA for answers?

Does anyone know if any Swedish media knows about it ?

 

[Shadowsong]

....
Anyway I guess that items / skills bought with false ped will be resold by MA avatar (depending on amount and if MA will care), and loss after this (as many of those items were AFAIK sold above markup) will be MA loss, not squeezed from players by "balancing manager".
.....

Now that is something that could be done to "re-legitimise" the peds and items. Good point. Listing those items on auction with no BO from an RX ava, then return the peds to the balance sheet.

We have to assume, I think, that MA at least managed to lock those down, and obtain control of them.

I admit, there is a great deal of speculation here, but it is not wild or unfounded speculation. The PayNova "fake ped" issue is known, and we have seen posts quoting the support cases which confirm this. It did seem the most likely source of this incident, particularly given that it apparently persisted even after it became public. That is all the window a fraudster needs.

I am encouraged to see the confidence still displayed by some, and I'm also happy that most of us agree that a clear statement from MA would be very useful in settling the rumours.

Clearly, they cannot provide us with all the details, but any company that is handling this much trust from this many people simply must maintain a clear communication with those people.

Yes, it's a very sensitive issue, and needs to be dealt with extremely carefully, to minimise negative repercussions. This is why public relations is a profession. My advice to MA would be to buff their PR mobs with some additional stats.

 

[thoreau]

Speaking of official communication, has anyone seen Marco on the forums lately?

- Nightwolf

Has anyone seen any 'official' communication on the forums lately? Marco or otherwise.

 

[sempul]

well he threw this out in another forum

I can confirm that a statement will come. No ETA yet.

it is in forum: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/general-discussion/113935-my-account-locked-35.html

 

[Arto]

Don't Bank on Anything

The thing that concerns me is that we do not now how severe this incident was, and it is unlikely that we will. Call me a pessimist, but I am hugely mistrustful of anyone who conceals the extent of a problem, because it generally indicates that it is larger than meets the eye.

I also do not believe in unsinkable ships. If it can float, it can sink.

You're quite right Shadowsong, all ships can sink and they do. Banks go bust too and stock markets crash. I used to feel very strongly that Mindark were not correctly safeguarding our PE/EU 'Deposits' and asked them about it. Mindark do no guarantee any of the cash in the EU product, they simply can't guarantee the cash and do not have a banking license or any financial insurance IMO.
If there has been an error or a fraud Mindark have to cover it with their own cash or credit facilities and I guess their first actions were to make sure the ‘cash’ was frozen into the system somehow so it couldn’t be laundered back into $.
My point is that, EU is not an investment and we can all lose everything with the click of a power switch so I have given up worrying about it and limited my deposits to something I can afford to lose. I have no idea how the big investors accepted the risks and slept at night until they had recovered their money – maybe some people have more money and risk tolerance than I do.
Good post, regards Arto

 

[Shadowsong]

Account Lockdown Information
28 May 2008

During Monday evening several Entropia Universe accounts where locked. This is Standard Operating Procedure when Mindark's Monitoring Team encounters suspect transactions within the Entropia Universe system. A problem was discovered with a payment provider, Paynova, whose service Mindark uses to allow PED deposits into Entropia Universe.

A glitch in Paynova's software allowed for the deposit of PED without the corresponding amount in real funds being credited. A few former Entropia Universe participants exploited this glitch and got hold of illegal PED. As soon as the situation was verified, logs and transaction records were quickly analyzed using advanced tools developed by MindArk for this purpose, and the initial exploiters' accounts where locked, as well as those that had any association with the illegal PED. A thorough investigation commenced during Monday night and continued throughout Tuesday. Accounts whose holders were evaluated to have been acting in "good faith" were unlocked and all transactions validated. The initial exploiters' accounts remain locked.

Originally Posted Here

Okay, good stuff. We know more, and speculation should diminish.

I do hope they follow up with some indication of how they will deal with the items involved. The sky seems a touch more stable now

 

[MindBuster]

Let's conclude the thread here and continue in MA's thread https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/mindark-news/114128-account-lockdown-information.html