Consumer rights and Entropia

Qetesh

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I have been wondering about this since VU 10.

When you buy something you are usually entitled to the item you paid for. If you buy a porche then you expect to get a porche and you don't expect the seller to come to your house after 3 days with a sledgehammer to reshape the roof and remove the wheels.

With VU 10 all of calypso was remade for the new engine, and obviously nobody can expect it to look the same before / after, however:

This was my outback land 25 before the vu:



And this is after:



What I paid for was a flat "perfect" hunting area where you could tag mobs at the end of the radar if you only had a weapon that could shoot far enough. Now it's basically a big hillside with a river cutting it in half making it really unpleasant to hunt in and mostly suited for melee weapons. over 100k was spent on DNA on this mob that now is easier to hunt on eudoria due to these changes.

Many of my other areas suffered a similar faith;

LA 20 ((ex?) longu land):


LA 41 (new switzerland):


I made a point out of buying lands that were flat, close to tp and good for hunting. After vu 10.0 all but one of my LAs was moved further away from TP's, and drastically reshaped. After contacting MA about the issue they actually moved some TPs around to make up for some of it and for that I am grateful, but for instance outback land 29 which was right next to emerald TP is now miles away from anything. New Switzerland which I paid over 500k ped for due to being one of two land areas that had a TP INSIDE it now no longer has any tp in it, and the 3 fairly good hunting areas there are now gone and replaced by a fancy looking road cutting through the entire area. Don't get me wrong, it looks great, but I just don't see it bringing any income. Even mining is tough there since the area is full of hills you can't climb.

Before vu 10 I had no areas with rivers in them, and all areas with exception of LA 41 were really flat and ideal for hunting and therefor paid more than the average land area price to acquire these. Now I have 4 areas that have huge rivers splitting them up and vast mountains in most of them that you cannot even get up on. The bottom line for me is that due to these changes these LAs no longer contains that extra edge I paid greatly for and thus are no longer worth what they were before the vu. The value of the LAs has simply been reduced.

My question is this; To what extent are we entitled to "get what we paid for" in entropia? Can MA change the stats of an imk2 overnight so the eco is that of an opalo? Do we have any consumer rights in Entropia with regards to these things? We are after all talking about considerable amounts of money here.
 

Einstein

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I agree, this complete overhaul of the LA's (Location and topography wise) was not a good idea from MA at all.

IMO it will seriously undermine the confidence to make future substantial investments in this game.
Location and topography are some of the most important factors of LA's together with DNA offcourse.

Changing these 2 aspects completely overnight is not a good thing. It changes the value of a land area completely.

This would be the same as changing mod fap stats to only 30 heal or mod merc to only 20 rpm.

I really hope that MA will reconsider the changes they made to the LA's and rather try to get them close to the look they had pre VU-10 again.
 

Seoul

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Man, talk about a major pain in the ass.

In real life, I buy land in the best part of town, I build up a business, get a ton of customors and booommm, the city put in a new freeway and it cut my area in half. OK, what happens then? I really don't know. Can you sue anyone? Would be nice to see what a lawer in their home country would say, would love to see that answer.

Good luck to you dude

Seoul
 

Naomi

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sorry to hear

sorry to hear
and I can only say that you're right

Naomi
 

Fizbinthemagi

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Wow 2 big MA diss pages in one day!

I am very sorry to see your land areas are now land fills, You would think that MA would have let Land owners in on placing thier LA's, or atleast made land area pads similiar to shopkeeper pads, but when deployed they claim the land you choose for yourself(although this wouldnt be fair to those LA owners that cant log in)
 

Crazios

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I ended up hunting at your armax la a few days ago, and it is indeed a horrible place to hunt compared to what it used to be. realy sad to see :(

I hope ma flattens out the world a bit more in the future, not just for you but for everyone so we can enjoy playing entropia a bit more.
 

Fizbinthemagi

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In real life, I buy land in the best part of town, I build up a business, get a ton of customors and booommm, the city put in a new freeway and it cut my area in half. OK, what happens then? I really don't know. Can you sue anyone? Would be nice to see what a lawer in their home country would say, would love to see that answer.

Good luck to you dude

Seoul
Here in america it is called eminent domain, the government can take your land and give you whatever compensation they choose, if any at all. happened to an old man that lived down the road from me while i was growing up. they literally made him move his House(not a trailer, a real house) and all for a stupid 4 lane highway!
 

gwit

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A fascinating question.

To address it one has to ask - what have you actualy bought?
Have you bought a virtual piece of land or a right to participate in a profit share on a virtual piece of land.

I don't really think there is any straightforward answer to this one. Clearly whatever "rights" you have are limited because you cannot make any changes to your land - you can only add or remove mobs and not make any structural changes. This unfortunately supports my earlier point about the right to participate.

However there is another interesting line to be addressed and that is what representations were made to you to induce you to enter into the contract to be this participation right. This may give you an angle.
 

heineken

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Very interesting indeed. They kinda went overboard with all the Mountains everywhere....calylpso must be a really earthquake prone place:scratch2:

MA knows people who made big purchases in game made them for a reason and they should have contacted you about it prior to making such a drastic change, or at least work with you on it.

I hope somehow this gets sorted for you. I for one would be ok with seeing less mountains overall. I dont think that is likely though anytime soon.
 

Fizbinthemagi

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I for one would be ok with seeing less mountains overall. I dont think that is likely though anytime soon.
I for 1 will be the first to say, leave it as it is, they will probly mess it up more if they take out the mountains. Instead of mountains, you will probly have lakes. And to add on top of that, if any changes are made to calypso terrain, it should be reverting back to the way it used to be, wont be to hard to do, im sure they still have the old heightmaps and texturemaps laying around somewhere, just a matter of importing them into cry2(not that hard, just toss it in the folder and hit generate terrain select the heightmap and texture map and in 10 minutes or so, depending on pc, youve got the old terrain in cry2. I know this because i am currently using a game engine that is very similiar to cry2)
 

Cail

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Wondering how bad idea it would be if MA could "cut off" the LA's from the virtual world, send the models to the owners, who could then remodel them with CE2 sandbox, send the models back to MA who'd then review them and decided that the changes are by their rules, and then just put those pieces back in incoming VU's.
Atleast, if i've understood correctly, CE2 level modelling and managing shouldn't be a big job.

Aaanywho, just thinking out loud :)
 

Steve_saber

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Personally I’ve been wondering if anyone that "tested" EU before it went live actually actively tried activities like hunting and mining different places, or just a few.

CND was a perfect example. My first time entering dome 4 the small trox dome, I said...WOW! It was amazing looking. Then after 5 minutes of mining...I knew it was almost useless as was. All i could think was, with trox, even the best hunters would be frustrated. So amazing looking, yet totally impractical.

It’s since been rectified by lowering some mountains, and removing some in all the domes. Maybe not as spectacular looking….but way more practical. ;)

Hopefully other Land owners will receive equal treatment as was extended to ND. ;)

To bad really, MA could have saved a lot of hassle simply by some consultation with some of their biggest investors. A little work on the design end could have avoided a ton of man hours involved in support cases and redoing work which already has a lot of time invested.

GL, hope you and other land owners get your issues sorted.
 

Fizbinthemagi

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Wondering how bad idea it would be if MA could "cut off" the LA's from the virtual world, send the models to the owners, who could then remodel them with CE2 sandbox, send the models back to MA who'd then review them and decided that the changes are by their rules, and then just put those pieces back in incoming VU's.
Atleast, if i've understood correctly, CE2 level modelling and managing shouldn't be a big job.

Aaanywho, just thinking out loud :)
the problem with this is that each LA owner would have to license the engine, and then the terrain is tiled, and from the way it looks, most LA's are on atleast 2 or 3 tiles(tiles being 2048 x 2048, i believe that is the size, with each pixel being 1 meter) and also MA would have to moniter the modifaction to the terrain to ensure that the land outside the la isnt messed up. I seroiusly doubt that Qetesh or any other La owner is willing to pay 25k usd for the License just to be able to touch the game engines terrain builder! But as you said its not that hard to do, if you want to mess around with a game engine similiar to cry2, google Visual3d.net, it is a great game engine and easy to use!

EDIT: sorry misspelled your name Qetesh!
 

Jamira

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Assumption:
Maybe the staff at FPC's LSD (Landscape Styling Department) were drunk from all this wonderful abilities of CE2. They simply had no idea of customer interests such as landowners. They built beautiful landscapes. Done.

Then the surveyor team came up and drew lines on the map ... zigzag: LA_xx ... zigzag: LA_yy ... and so on. They used a flat 2D-map for their zigzagging. They did it on flat maps on their flatscreens. They didn't run through the land to check the results. I'm pretty sure about this!

Probably there is a way to talk to FPC about this issue. But I'm afraid even if they see that the landowners are right, they will never ever change the landscapes again. (I guess the LSD-team is fired meanwhile.)
 

Uni

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classics MA

ya man, i was wondering this myself and would be really pissed in ur place.
Im with u MA should do something!
 

TheVoid

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MA has done a very good job with this VU, everything looks nicer and all, I wouldn't mind if a few TPs were changed, a few Cities moved but to change the land areas like this is just unfair for everyone...

I think that MA 1st did the entire MAP then they added the LAs in a way they would look nicer in the map (they actualy do)


MA just because CE2 is good for making mountains you don't have to over do it..

I was thinking about investing big time in the game but with the current events I don't think I will... :scratch2:
 

Masta

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In real life, I buy land in the best part of town, I build up a business, get a ton of customors and booommm, the city put in a new freeway and it cut my area in half. OK, what happens then? I really don't know. Can you sue anyone? Would be nice to see what a lawer in their home country would say, would love to see that answer.

Good luck to you dude

Seoul
But in real life you are well aware of this risk. A particular problem with FPC is that while they promote in-game investment, the unknowns of investing themselves are largely unknown.

Do we have any consumer rights in Entropia with regards to these things? We are after all talking about considerable amounts of money here.
As per EULA, "investment" in Calypso is really an entertainment expenditure, where the return, and the ability to withdraw, are really parts of the entertainment, and come without warranty (although MA is careful enough to treat your PED balance as liability in their filings).

I believe that the only way to challenge MA/FPC on this is to claim that in the official forum posts and press releases where they talk about "investment" in Entropia they misrepresent their product, since they really talk about entertainment experience, not investment vehicles. Real solicited investments are regulated by financial authorities, and have clear risk/return terms.

P.S.

Some of this may change very soon with the intro of MindBank. It is not yet clear, however, what the terms between the end user and MindBank will be. Overall, I think MA/FPC staff realize that these limitations constrain the development of EU, and are working to improve this (hence the licensed bank, perhaps).
 
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Xzion

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Well you are right.

but, it dosnt matter how much you paid; You should get what you pay for and keep it that way, if you paid for a flat LA, you should keep having a flat LA until you ask MA to change it for you.

If MA wants to change something about it they should send a email asking if they are allowed to edit the features of your LA.
 

nutter

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All items (inc LA's) belong to MA/FPC.

They can change them / alter them however they see fit.

I feel for you, I really do as you have a lot of money tied up in these things, but each time you log in, you agree to the terms and conditions which state 'all your base are belong to MA/FPC...' (or near enough)..

Out of courtesy I guess they should have informed you to give you a chance to dispose of your interest in these items if you so wished, but then would they extend the same curtesy to the owner of any other item they were going to change the stats/graphics/textures of?

I would imagine your only recourse now is to sell on the LA's and buy more where the lay of the land is better for your business plans.
 

Qetesh

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I would imagine your only recourse now is to sell on the LA's and buy more where the lay of the land is better for your business plans.
DNA can not be moved.
 

nutter

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DNA can not be moved.
Maybe MA/FPC would give you the DNA's you have as 'compensation' for their lack of consideration in not informing you of their changes. Or at least re-implement the DNA you have currently on any new lands (provided you dispose of your interests in the 'old' lands, I am sure they will insist...)

Good luck with your endevours.
 

Skullseige

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I think a petition is in order. I would sign it and I am sure a lot would follow seeing as most of our favorite LA to hunt on are now... how should I put it... "unrealistically huntable". I don't care if Eudoria is left the way it is now, there are some nice areas with smooth mountains that you can easily hunt on, but LAs have taken a hard hit from where they used to be. I think a petition would show MA how much we all hate it and with enough upset costumers I am sure they would change it.

GL with the Petition,

Skullseige:D
 

MajorYoyo

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wow .... not really a good thing ...... hope it will be straightend out soon for all playing....
 
T

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As a last resort.

Hire a lawyer to investigate what possible course of action could be taken. I wouldn't mind knowing what possible consumer rights we have in a virtual world tbh. And please don't mention the EULA anyone, the majority of EU's EULA doesn't mean shit in a real court of law.

People have already mentioned petitions etc however I can't remember the last time that a situation similar to this was actually solved via one.
 

levithanikos

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One thing i DON'T understand about MA : :scratch2:

They spend SO much money (our peds) , to improve GFX and create new bugs .. er i meant , fix the bugs , but they have maybe the WORST communication / connection with their community ...

Is sad and totally unprofessional , making so big changes and don't even ask the ppl who actually keep MA alive

Demonikos :tiphat:
 

Solaris

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It looks to me that all those people purchasing (investing) areas, apps or shops, has been pretty bad set up after this VU.

The graphics are pretty awesome - true!

But when a person buys stuff depending on location, looks and availability, and then gets it all changed pretty big time overnight...

Same issues can apply to poor fellas skilling up on pets. It just isnt worth a dime if MA never follows up on the initial plans.


I would say MA is hurting their own trust fund right now.

Investing and gaming, is based on trust. Just like any business relation.
Destroy the trust, and you destroy your own ability to do business.
 

Ludvig|MindArk

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did you try contacting MindArk and telling them you are unhappy? they might flatten it out for ya sometime?
 

Moksha

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All items (inc LA's) belong to MA/FPC.

They can change them / alter them however they see fit.

I feel for you, I really do as you have a lot of money tied up in these things, but each time you log in, you agree to the terms and conditions which state 'all your base are belong to MA/FPC...' (or near enough)..

Out of courtesy I guess they should have informed you to give you a chance to dispose of your interest in these items if you so wished, but then would they extend the same curtesy to the owner of any other item they were going to change the stats/graphics/textures of?

I would imagine your only recourse now is to sell on the LA's and buy more where the lay of the land is better for your business plans.
I really think it may be a little difficult to sell this LA for what was paid considering the changes made. And as for buying another (flatter one)well would you?
 
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This does need addressing, because this is the general response that ubers would give low to mid-level players if they made a thread like this...

EU is Dynamic. Suck it up and roll with it. You aren't guaranteed anything in this universe except the TT value. Deeds are valued at 1 ped (?), market is set by players only. Thank you, and have a nice day.
I do think this ultra-mountainous terrain was just a LEETLE bit over the top :)laugh:) but unless we want MA to do yet ANOTHER complete overhaul, I don't know wth they are going to do to please us. Perhaps the allowance of LA owners to remodify the terrain is a good idea.

And, I don't mean this with malice or malcontent, but I only hope you get handled if/when MA fixes all their OTHER, equally fucked up 'updates' that they have introduced. Otherwise it's clearly preferential treatment.
 
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