Crafting is an abysmal trainwreck for the majority of the playerbase.

Timewarpman1

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My name is not important. Just like my crafting skills, ehhhh!

But after a number of years trying to make some sort of niche in all three professions, I've come to the conclusion that EU has the absolute WORST crafting system in any game in HISTORY.


Now now, before all of you lobster accountants start wailing about research and bankrolls and "economics" let's step back for a bit and actually look at the system from the perspective of an actual manufacturing perspective.

I've tried my hand at crafting, a lot. More so than most people in the entire player base. Maybe not dollar wise but certainly i've spent enough hours staring at a blank wall to be experienced with it enough. And let me just say I've never felt any less involved in any activity available in EU. It makes sweating look like an Olympic sprint.
Aesthetics aside, I don't think I have had a more stressful and loathsome time than when I try to create ANYTHING from crafting and end up with tiny piles of metal sand and a few bits and pieces that don't add up to anything useful.
No it's not that I don't know what pieces go where or what I would need to TRY to make said thing. It's just that this game does actually have MANUFACTURING but some kind of slot machine that spits out parts SOMETIMES or eats up everything. How in any fucking fashion could any society survive with such inefficient tools at their disposal?
It's like those bad cooking jokes about not being able to boil water or make a bowl of cereal, except in this game those are EVERYDAY occurrences.

And we all know MA is not trying to hide that fact. For fucks sake they created EP and Shrapnel BPs to encourage the slot machine mentality without any consideration of the moral and economical decline such a system would impact on it's TINY user base. And yes it is a tiny user base. If there is even more than a couple hundred active people online right now, that would be the peak here but in other games would be the death kneel.

Of course the real moon-wide sight problem of crafting basically boils down to three important aspects that make it less of an enticing profession and little more than something you gamble on while you jerk off outside the game on pornhub until that gets boring:

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1. First and foremost IT'S TOO DAMN EXPENSIVE!

Crafting is the most ped intense activity bar none. Even at lvl 0 making ANYTHING worthwhile requires more input than most noobs will even dip their toes in from the onset. Now I'm not talking about the cheapest thing you could make (Filters, I know what it was you were thinking), I mean actually making an item that can be utilized. And the most cheapest thing I can think of off the bat is a pair of simple pioneer gloves. It seems simple doesn't it? One part iron and one part oil. Okay well first you need at least both at one attempt...ATTEMPT. More on that later.

But where do you get these items?
From mining of course...and already the expense has compacted from the onset.

Okay so as a noob I now have to buy the cheapest...actually the next expensive finder if you actually want to find enough resources off the TT machine. (Do they even have f101s anymore?). Don’t forget 3 ped for the extractor. What you think material just appears when you find it? Pfft... lol.
So about 3 ped. Oh but don't forget you need some probes too. To find iron you need to blow at least 1 ped of probes and oil is around .50 pec. And since you probably don't know where to find either I hope you sold enough sweat to buy around maybe 100 peds worth for exploratory purposes.

But let's say you did your research and are banking maybe around 20 peds.
Well you may know where it is but that doesn't mean you're going to get it. Oooh nooo. You are most likely not going to find either right off the bat because there are so many things in the ground to find that you don't need at all or even want. And that's assuming you find any at all.
Now let's say you're just Mr. Lucky and you find the iron and oil you want under that 20 ped budget.

Well hold on partner, you can't just toss raw items into a printing machine and make something. You first got to iron out those impurities with a refiner. That'll be 2 ped for the tool and don't think you can use it and sell it right back. It breaks down from use and especially on the quantity of material you refine. Oil being one of the worst things a refiner could produce you're probably going to lose maybe 20 pec or so to decay.

So at a net loss of around 25 in raw ped, you're finally able to craft those gloves you want, yay.

So at least you should be able to get like 20 peds worth of gloves which you could also sell to other people right....right?

NOPE.AVI (/ 8 (-----------------(

Because now you need to rely on pure luck of making even ONE glove on a machine less reliable than just making it with your own damn hands with a hammer and a lighter.
Sure toss all that material in and put that chance meter at the highest quantity possible and see how many gloves pop out for a noob at your level. Maybe if you're lucky you'll get like around 7-10... all low quality I might add since you don't make items at full condition without essentially throwing ped down a toilet on condition mode. All with absolutely no meaningful input on your end aside from pushing a button.

So now after losing maybe 1/2 or more to essentially magic, you are now the proud owner of 7-10 shitty made gloves.... that almost anyone in the game could make... because these were the only bps available to purchase at the TT machine that we're available on your budget after weeks upon weeks of sweating creatures and waiting for someone to grace you of buying it.

And no one is going to buy them except other clueless noobs that you no longer are through painful remorse...

...of one....ONE... blueprint. ...now you just have to work your way up junior with tons of cash if you want to make anything else, sunshine.

---------------------------------------

That is literally the most bare bones path of crafting and that alone is proof enough how unsustainable a system like that exist without having to drain resources from most...well actually... all the player base. How exactly does that entice anyone to be insane enough to try without a bankroll that makes most minium wage works cry in their sleep at night at those five figure dreams? In fact it's the only way it can be sustained off the backs of other people, which wouldn't be a problem. I mean insurance somehow manages it.

That is of course if it weren't for the second rotten core in this festering boil of a system.
Those lovable unreliable unfeeling crafting machines.

----------------------------------------------

Continued vvvvvv
 
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Timewarpman1

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2. Those most unreliable tool ever created by mankind - Manufacturing Machines.

This is a Sci-if fantasy right? Laser guns, alien worlds, technology and what not, yes?
Okay so I got a question then.

How many fantasies include these amazing technological wonders that work about as reliably as a For Pinto?
...I suspect most creators don't actually include malcontent inventions like that because we assume humans are not that fucking stupid.

But here is a Sci-if fantasy that accomplish that not because of lore or anything but because it's a FINANCIAL BACKED DECISION!

Why are they even call Manufacturing machines? That would imply a sense of precision, reliable results and CONSISTENT OUTPUT!
What these things ought to actually be are just toilets. That's right toilets. An object you can toss all your resources and money down with each flush and then hope that you manage to clog just enough and depending how much you jiggle the handle (slide bar) that sometimes a stinky log of success floats back up from the drain.

You know most other games the factor of failure of creating something is on the onus of the creator genuinely fumbling at his craft thus creating faulty products or outright destruction. Usually from lack of pay attention to not having certain skills to ACTIVELY COUNTERACT anomalies during construction.

NOT HERE!

We might as well change the name Crafting into "Magic" for all the fucking input you actually factor in creating ANYTHING.
How can you even call it a profession? That would imply a SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF CONTROL.

For fucks sake, a poker player is more of a professional than anyone crafting anything in this game.

It's not enough that most people will never be able to actually move forward in crafting whatsoever thanks to expense alone but add in a chance factor the position and you're already alienated the skill to the most richest, reckless and least connected to reality people you can possibly have. WHICH IS BAD!!! BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD!!!

We're already seen the effects of having a small amount of elite crafters brings to the game:

HYPERINFLATION!
THE LACK OF AFFORDABLE and more importantly AVAILABLE PRODUCTS FOR SALE
A LACK OF DEMAND FOR RAW MATERIAL, SAPPING TWO OTHER PROFESSIONS THAT RELY ON SUCH INCOME!
AND A SELF CANNIBALIZING CLASS OF ELITE CRAFTERS (explosive and shrapnel gamblers) EATING EACH OTHER OUT IN THE MOST UNSEXY ORGY EVER!

And all this so MA can sustain a stupidly expensive business (we all know their numbers, don't kid yourself).

--------------------------------------------------------------

Continued vvvvv
 

Timewarpman1

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3. SHITHOLE ECONOMY FOR ALL!

And all that leads to what our economy is today as we know it.
A barren wasteland of overpriced goods that a decade ago was far more plentiful and less expensive ped to ped.

Sure the crafters had to craft more stuff and buy from people who harvested their supplies but....

THAT'S JUST HOW COMMERCE WORKS!

It's an exchange of good and services which over time generally is supposed to increased the wealth of a population over a period of time, allowing for new opportunities and innovation to lead to better services and more efficient production.

But because of MA meddling choke hold on their game for their own benefit, they decided that instead of making a sustainable long term PROFITABLE population, they rather just throw that out in favor for strong SHORT TERM gains which will eventually lead to a total collapse at some point as unsustainable eventually impacts one side or the other so much that effectively the PARASITE kills the HOST!

And as much as some apologist want to to say MA is a business that owes nothing to it's customers...

Well remember this: As long you pay taxes, you SUBSIDIZE MA through loopholes in the countries it does business with in order to OPERATE, just like any other company or corporation.

And no matter what changes they make to the loot, be it 2.0 or crafting 2.0 or Lootus 9000, so long as MA considers itself over it's playerbase above all...

...it's just a ticking time bomb.

------------------------------------------------------

Tomorrow I will offer some insights among the PILES upon PILES of suggestions MA will never read on what to do about this problem...

Which is mostly just me ranting how stupid MA is and to get it's shit together...and I guess a few ideas if it cares that much.

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(Oh and I copied this whole thing, hopefully I won't have to post this multiple times. I'll even edit out the swears if you want forum dictat....I mean Mod :) )
 
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Mega

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(Oh and I copied this whole thing, hopefully I won't have to post this multiple times. I'll even edit out the swears if you want forum dictat....I mean Mod :) )

About the crafting - I'll leave that to others to discuss. The swearing - I will defer to Mr Stephen Fry - a rather intelligent chap.
Have a great weekend (whoever you are) :)
 

TheOneOmega

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Did you just go through a crafting tutorial and infuse a sinister vibe sentence by sentence? The tone sounds like a Mario game where they wanted Bowser to give the tutorial, so they used nihilistic language but with an underlying educational message :lolup:

In all seriousness though, I'm sure there are some valid points in there and I'll read it fully in a bit.
 

Timewarpman1

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Did you just go through a crafting tutorial and infuse a sinister vibe sentence by sentence? The tone sounds like a Mario game where they wanted Bowser to give the tutorial, so they used nihilistic language but with an underlying educational message :lolup:

In all seriousness though, I'm sure there are some valid points in there and I'll read it fully in a bit.
For me, it's was just another Saturday
 

True Juan

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Lol that Toilet reference :D Yes, EU has MANYYY flaws that could actually be easily fixed. :) But MA doesnt care...and they cant handle a larger player base imho.
 

@"Bendorian"...

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This is a reserved post for expressing the thoughts about my crafting experience in Entropia Universe.
 
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Timewarpman1

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Very confusing post. I think you don't really understand how crafting works in EU.
I’m sorry. I didn’t graduate from MA technical collage of Toilet magic.

What didn’t I understand aside from create thing to make thing...and hope you can make either thing without setting your wallet on fire? And then try to sell said thing at an exorbitant price in the hopes of even breaking even?

Please tell me wise guy. :)
 

FuRiouSOne

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Little timmy, a pre armature crafter thinking hes going to jump into making big boy toys with a 20 ped bank roll....

Did you pay for your high school and collage education to learn how to be a, say mechanical engineer with $2? No. Same thing in this game you will need to spend money for your education (skills) in order to make them big boy toys.

Imagine a kid strait out of high school thinking hes going to make cars for a living all from scratch? Getting the machinery to farm out all the metals and materials from the ground to make the tools and moldings to craft his first car and accomplishes this only to find that first car was a complete failure. Doesn't start, panels not lining up and bolts not holding things together properly. Then going to some random automotive manufacturing forums complaining how shitty this industry is...

This is not World of Warcraft, you should not bring that mindset into this game. But yet your forum account here is 10 years old and you still haven't figured this out is amazing.
 

Ino

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There are 2 types of crafters in this game one type that found a way to profit and keeps quiet and the ones that is unsuccessful at making profits and comes to the forum to brag about how unsuccessful they are. Like in any market that involves trading(forex,stocks etc.) the percentage is 2-3% successful to 97-98% unsuccessful. Think about why is that? All markets are broken?
 

Alukat123

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There are 2 types of crafters in this game one type that found a way to profit and keeps quiet and the ones that is unsuccessful at making profits and comes to the forum to brag about how unsuccessful they are.
actually there's 3 types. The 3rd is the one that makes profit and comes to the forum to suggest how to improve crafting and to get the economy to grow further :cool:
 
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Ino

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actually there's 3 types. The 3rd is the one that makes profit and comes to the forum to suggest how to improve crafting and to get the economy to grow further :cool:
You are right. I forgot about the crafting gurus :)
 

Timewarpman1

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Little timmy, a pre armature crafter thinking hes going to jump into making big boy toys with a 20 ped bank roll....

Did you pay for your high school and collage education to learn how to be a, say mechanical engineer with $2? No. Same thing in this game you will need to spend money for your education (skills) in order to make them big boy toys.

Imagine a kid strait out of high school thinking hes going to make cars for a living all from scratch? Getting the machinery to farm out all the metals and materials from the ground to make the tools and moldings to craft his first car and accomplishes this only to find that first car was a complete failure. Doesn't start, panels not lining up and bolts not holding things together properly. Then going to some random automotive manufacturing forums complaining how shitty this industry is...

This is not World of Warcraft, you should not bring that mindset into this game. But yet your forum account here is 10 years old and you still haven't figured this out is amazing.
Okay I knew this kinda of stupidity would rear it's head.

First off, did I say Toilet magic was a scam or something?

No this was a complaint about ACCESSIBILITY and SUSTAINABILITY.

I'm not complaining that 20 peds isn't enough to being a crafting mega lord that itself was merely an example to the point, that you completely missed.
In reality the complaint is that there is NO FOUNDATION affordable to the AVERAGE player made worse by a HUGE RNG factor and DE FACTO MONOPOLIES by uber players.
Ubers, by the way, who benefited from a time when skills were very EASY to achieve which can NO LONGER be achieved at all. Thus all newcomers are SHOT IN THE FOOT from the onset.

There SHOULD be a bottom to start from, a bottom that isn't so PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE that it actually keeps ANYONE from INVESTING or EXPERIMENTING!

No components, like filters, are not GOOD ENOUGH of a foundation because they don't amount to TANGIBLE IN DEMAND PRODUCTS to SUSTAIN ON! Not without having to be made of upwards of 100 USD or more to make just a tiny smidgen of markup. And who the fuck here is buying filters on a regular basis anyway? NO ONE! That's why it barely has 1% MU at all.

I don't see why there can't be at least a stable ground floor for anyone getting into Toilet Magic. Why not have pills or temporary stuff for lower levels to chew on? Stat buffs or anything that can be replenished for little cost? I've played so many other mmos and games where you have at least something to chew on until you work your way up and provides some benefit to start with.

But of course that would cut into, what I assume you to be one of those elite bastards, your sales and God forbid you have more competition and money in the system rather than MA's pockets. Much like a parasite is to a host.
 

Timewarpman1

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There are 2 types of crafters in this game one type that found a way to profit and keeps quiet and the ones that is unsuccessful at making profits and comes to the forum to brag about how unsuccessful they are. Like in any market that involves trading(forex,stocks etc.) the percentage is 2-3% successful to 97-98% unsuccessful. Think about why is that? All markets are broken?
Uhhh yes. Very much so. Why can't there be 60-100% success for everyone? Why does all the wealth have to be funneled to a select few?
It's called variety. It's a much healthier system and in the long run means more products, better services and less inequality.

I'd call MA's system capitalism but that's being very disingenuous to actual capitalism as even our real products are not hostage to one single entity.
 

Timewarpman1

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Oh speaking of variety.

Why the FUCK are blueprints spit out on rare occasions associated with a SUCCESS and why is the variety of drops almost always the same shit over and over and over? What do I have fill out just one book in any category? Oh that's right, buy them at stupidly large prices because we can't have everyone having a level playing field can we?

Yeah Toilet Magic within Toilet Magic.
 

Alukat123

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buy QR 100 BP for skilling.
the only thing that did really hurt new players is MA having nerfed the droprate of EP 1 BPs from pretty common to pretty much non-existant... that was a quite good and cheap BP for new players. i did get profit of it when i skilled from 0-10 and back then there weren't any EP Recycle BPs around ^^

Edit: these days i would go with QR100 non-sib on monria to skill from 0-10 ofc.
 
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Darth Revan

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Well this started out as a complaint about crafting that might of had some valid points, Then i read this part:

And the most cheapest thing I can think of off the bat is a pair of simple pioneer gloves.
And was thinking to myself that there are plenty of other BP's that are cheaper and actually have some MU (or you could easily find a buyer for).
Then it switched to complaining about mining....and i thought this was a crafting only complaint thread but apparently not.
Next i got to this part:

all low quality I might add since you don't make items at full condition without essentially throwing ped down a toilet on condition mode.
And it confirmed that there was no point in reading any further.
Perhaps MA need to come out with an in-depth crafting tutorial, since no one bothers with mentors these days and just click and pray.
 

kingofaces

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And was thinking to myself that there are plenty of other BP's that are cheaper and actually have some MU (or you could easily find a buyer for).
Then it switched to complaining about mining....and i thought this was a crafting only complaint thread but apparently not.
Indeed, this part of their OP also caught my eye.

Now now, before all of you lobster accountants start wailing about research and bankrolls and "economics" let's step back for a bit and actually look at the system from the perspective of an actual manufacturing perspective.
One of the issues in these forums is when people pop up to say "don't talk to me about research, economy, etc." when not doing that is the very reason why they're having trouble and puts them in a position where they really shouldn't be complaining.

I remember back when I started, I found some crafted items I could break even on roughly right out the gate. I wasn't much of a crafter, but if I was going to do a small pedcard cycle only back then, there were (and are) options.

That said, with the implementation of shrapnel and getting items < 0.01 ped, maybe MA could implement some "puny" BPs for newbies. MU will be low due to oversupply on something like that, but that's fairly inherent with any beginner items in most professions. It would lower "entry" cost into the profession though.
 

Evey

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No components, like filters, are not GOOD ENOUGH of a foundation because they don't amount to TANGIBLE IN DEMAND PRODUCTS to SUSTAIN ON! Not without having to be made of upwards of 100 USD or more to make just a tiny smidgen of markup. And who the fuck here is buying filters on a regular basis anyway? NO ONE! That's why it barely has 1% MU at all.
MINIMAL common sense and logic should indicate that you don't craft whatever the fuck you want, craft shit no one needs and expect to get somewhere? Why should people buy your shit? If you haven't figured out the supply and demand thingy in 10 years,maybe this game is not meant for you?
How about instead you follow the market and see what's in demand BEFORE you click it. You check AH, see how many units of X product there are and what's the rate, see if the mats you need are cheap enough to match the existing price. Or you can noob around still and overpay for mats then cut everyone in AH thinking that will take you to the big boys and girls league of crafters ...

How about YOU adapt to this game's rules and not make random actions expecting results you got in OTHER games?
There is a CONSISTENT OUTCOME in crafting, you just need to find out OR, do the smartest thing and ask around someone who knows. You'd be surprised how many people would help you out in a game where the main competition if for knowledge and $.
Not saying that crafting is awesome but I know people doing very well following the rules of -wait-for-it THIS GAME.
 

vilfiina

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I’m sorry. I didn’t graduate from MA technical collage of Toilet magic.

What didn’t I understand aside from create thing to make thing...and hope you can make either thing without setting your wallet on fire? And then try to sell said thing at an exorbitant price in the hopes of even breaking even?

Please tell me wise guy. :)
Go play WoW, since there is no way you are going to understand anything I or others will say. It's the best advise you will get after 10 years of playing EU and still posting this nonsense.
 

Timewarpman1

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Well this started out as a complaint about crafting that might of had some valid points, Then i read this part:



And was thinking to myself that there are plenty of other BP's that are cheaper and actually have some MU (or you could easily find a buyer for).
Then it switched to complaining about mining....and i thought this was a crafting only complaint thread but apparently not.
Next i got to this part:



And it confirmed that there was no point in reading any further.
Perhaps MA need to come out with an in-depth crafting tutorial, since no one bothers with mentors these days and just click and pray.

Geez, a little conceded there

Yes yes, I'm sure there are but if this isn't common knowledge to someone of at least average awareness like me, than it must not even be a blip on the radar of a far greater number of people right now.
You can't complain about not everyone being as smart as you when they don't have the tools necessary to be as smart as you.
Don't turn your nose up just because you don't want to look eye to eye with someone slightly below you.
 

Timewarpman1

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MINIMAL common sense and logic should indicate that you don't craft whatever the fuck you want, craft shit no one needs and expect to get somewhere? Why should people buy your shit? If you haven't figured out the supply and demand thingy in 10 years,maybe this game is not meant for you?
How about instead you follow the market and see what's in demand BEFORE you click it. You check AH, see how many units of X product there are and what's the rate, see if the mats you need are cheap enough to match the existing price. Or you can noob around still and overpay for mats then cut everyone in AH thinking that will take you to the big boys and girls league of crafters ...

How about YOU adapt to this game's rules and not make random actions expecting results you got in OTHER games?
There is a CONSISTENT OUTCOME in crafting, you just need to find out OR, do the smartest thing and ask around someone who knows. You'd be surprised how many people would help you out in a game where the main competition if for knowledge and $.
Not saying that crafting is awesome but I know people doing very well following the rules of -wait-for-it THIS GAME.
Why are you so angry that someone wants a consistent level playing field?
I've seen what sells on the AH and it's not something that every single avatar can affordably get into.
Why shouldn't there be different strata for players to profit from?

Or is it you just want to shut little people up like me so I don't cut into your profits?
 

Timewarpman1

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Go play WoW, since there is no way you are going to understand anything I or others will say. It's the best advise you will get after 10 years of playing EU and still posting this nonsense.
I do understand what you and others who've responded so hostel towards me. It's not about actually giving advise, it's about "leave my bottom line alone you little flea"

If you don't want to offer constructive points, please by all means take that stick out of your ass, burn it and smell your own shit for once.
 

Timewarpman1

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Indeed, this part of their OP also caught my eye.



One of the issues in these forums is when people pop up to say "don't talk to me about research, economy, etc." when not doing that is the very reason why they're having trouble and puts them in a position where they really shouldn't be complaining.

I remember back when I started, I found some crafted items I could break even on roughly right out the gate. I wasn't much of a crafter, but if I was going to do a small pedcard cycle only back then, there were (and are) options.

That said, with the implementation of shrapnel and getting items < 0.01 ped, maybe MA could implement some "puny" BPs for newbies. MU will be low due to oversupply on something like that, but that's fairly inherent with any beginner items in most professions. It would lower "entry" cost into the profession though.
See this is something that would be an improvement. Creating a lower teir market so one can train upwards. You know like going to college.
I understand there were options but given our current economy, I don't see that being a possibility anymore without investing hundreds or thousands in bulk selling. And that's not viable for the majority of the player base, no matter how some people here may view it.
 

Timewarpman1

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buy QR 100 BP for skilling.
the only thing that did really hurt new players is MA having nerfed the droprate of EP 1 BPs from pretty common to pretty much non-existant... that was a quite good and cheap BP for new players. i did get profit of it when i skilled from 0-10 and back then there weren't any EP Recycle BPs around ^^

Edit: these days i would go with QR100 non-sib on monria to skill from 0-10 ofc.
Okay my question, why?
Why can't there just be more BP variety from the onset...or more BPs dropping while crafting?
To buy BPs at that quality means having to rely on elite crafters or people who's spent a lot to make it that far and will charge a great deal to offset that.
At least there should be BPs that skill up to 100 at lower levels faster than mid to high so at least it gives a level ground floor to stand on.
 

vilfiina

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I do understand what you and others who've responded so hostel towards me. It's not about actually giving advise, it's about "leave my bottom line alone you little flea"

If you don't want to offer constructive points, please by all means take that stick out of your ass, burn it and smell your own shit for once.
You have been on these forums for ~10 years, more in game? According to your post, it seems like you just started playing 1 day before that post was made. You are completely clueless about crafting. You have to get a mentor and start over from zero, because that is how much you know about crafting today, big fat zero.
 

vilfiina

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Here are my weekly stats and I'm a really small crafter compared to some whales. Any crafter can guess what I been clicking.


xxxx96.54%
Return106.85%
Clicks10783
Total TT in32349
Total TT out31229.74
MU from blueprints1254
MU total from sales3335.98
xxxx118.32%
Return134.07%
Clicks3880
Total TT in11640
Total TT out13772.83
MU from blueprints915
MU total from sales1833.19


xxxx89.55%
Return106.81%
Clicks5871
Total TT in17613
Total TT out15772.66
MU from blueprints1989
MU total from sales3040.51


xxxx93.31%
Return106.05%
Clicks4018
Total TT in24911.6
Total TT out23245.98
MU from blueprints1622
MU total from sales3171.73
 
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