Question: Daily ATH's - good for the EU economy?

[Mega]

A thread was just locked for breaking Rule 18, which involved quitting.

However the discussion did deal in part with large "jackpot" style ATH's being a lot more frequent since VU 9.3.

So without any mention of quitting, are ATH's on a daily/twice daily basis good for EU's economy?

I think they:

• Lead to big withdrawals

• Inflate item prices

• Demotivate long standing players.

On the other hand they may:

• Motivate players to hit it big.

What's your feeling on them?

 

[Level]

yes, it is good for economy because many of these ATHs will be returned due to activity of lucky person, why?

ATH dude/chick (MA decide ) will spend money on new gun in mayby 5-10% cases, so seller will spend money on ammo/mining/crafting/buying items...and another seller has this money...and so on.
rest (90% ?)...will buy ammo/bombs/materials for crafting
so money is still circulating

withdrawals ? hmm, I dont know about ATH Withdrawals

 

[moise]

mmmmh... well.... depends if its "new player" who get it or an avatar who get a 3th ATH ... mh ?
1st ATH i think he will spend money in better item so money is still circulating
maybe withdraw for other
so good for economy ? depends who...

 

[Staffas]

I have not been here long enough realy to see how it has afffected the other loots/globals.

lets say that 1pec was taken from all globals during a day and added up to an ATH per day, in this case I dont mind it at all.

If it affect the general loot so that one or 2 Entropians per day can hit a large payout. Then I would mind the frequency of the ATHs.

Since noone knows how the lootsystem works, I prefer to keep myself happy and belive in my first option.

I voted for dancing monkeys

 

[Eron²]

no i dont think they are good, i would much rather see overall loot increased by a few pec.


dont get me wrong i would love to get a few of those nice ATH loots but i think the community as a whole would be just as happy with everyone doing a little better on general loots with chances for slightly smaller ATH's

 

[castro]

• Demotivate long standing players.

On the other hand they may:

• Motivate players to hit it big.

What's your feeling on them?

I am not much of an analyst nor an economist but the two above quoted lines are surely true.

We keep hunting , mining, crafting just for the sake of hope to ever get an ATH ourselves (At least I suspect a large part of the community does).
On the other hand we loose faith when watching people ATH daily when we can't even get a freaking 300 ped Hof in months and months or even years....

The choice is there for every individual to "1" get motivated or "2" demotivated, but one thing is for sure , I would jump a gap in the air should I kill something worth 300 ped

GR

Castro

 

[Jager von Amber]

All I can say is it would be good for MY general economy!!!!

 

[Ozi]

Who says ATH's need to drop every other day for people to hope for the big one.

I think overall loots should be better for the average player with the occassional ATH dropping. And for that matter the ATH's should be much bigger. Would anyone buy a lotto ticket for $10 for the chance to win $10,000, the answer is NO! they buy lotto tickets to win $10,000,000. The fun of EU is to make a little here and there, I think it's a smaller part of the player base who dream of buying a car as a result of gettinga big loot.

MA market EU to would be entrepreneurs. I asked an interesting question recently whilst delivering a guest lecture at the Australian Graduate School of Entrepreneurship - I asked for a show of hands to see how many of the people studying entrepreneurship purchased lotto tickets - you know the answer - that's right - not one, not one single student purchased lotto tickets. The reason is that entrepreneurs by their nature want to earn based on being smart and working hard, not by being lucky.

MA have being increasing the gambling feel of EU for the past 12 months, maybe longer. I don't believe that people play EU to get ATH's. Most people will say that they won't get one, but they keep playing, because the fun of EU is the networking, the progression, the opportunity to develop businesses.

I would love to see MA change their whole focus away from 'LUCK' to the further development of enterprise.

If they want big money stories for the media, let me buy a factory for $50k, develop the Entropia Exchange so groups of investors can form a virtual company and develop mining operations - that is what will attract the masses. Being a place you can get lucky in no takes advantage of the brilliant virtual world that MA have developed.

 

[Joe_Taxpayer]

in days past when ath`s were rare ,, the entire community except a bitter few were happy for the recipient . these day`s ath`s drop so often ,, it just pisses off the masses that have paid in and watch non depo`ers uber while they still have nothing but losses .

 

[Immortal]

Well I don't see that neo sharp or Remo electric being discouraged (in other words, most active hunters). The only 'long term' players that would be discouraged are those that were able to profit when noobs couldn't. (i.e. the system was unfair to everyone else, it was changed and those people in a happy little nook of uberness had to harden up or leave).

The global spam tell the story...and a longterm player will (should) know that ath's do not mean 'profit', nor do the lack of ath's mean 'loss'. Past three days (not including last night) was all +++ for me, but didn't have hunting loot above 200ped. I would have no problems if I could continue to hunt like that with the same spam ratio.

However.

The swath of ultra-ATH's recently from very inactive avatars does seem unfair to the rest of us

But that's EU. Adapt.

 

[Norbert]

I think we see more ATH's now as a result of the expansion of the ATH tables from 24 ( damn i forget think was 24 ) to 100 as we see now. Saying this though I have to agree that the frequency of them is getting hectic, seems almost everyday one pops up these days - but maybe this will calm down when the ATH top 100 settles down somewhat.

Dibbler

 

[Book]

hi, my name is book and im the boss of the Guardians of Lootius. this question has been ongoing in my soc for quite some time. recently my socmate Bart Aceman Simpson got a 65K ped aurli. i asked him afterward what would he rather have his ATH or better average loots overall. he didnt hesitate and said better loots. Ace had been in PE for about a year when i started playing, in that time he hadnt gotten a single hof. if anyone deserves an ATH its him, i dont even want to think about how many peds he has deposited(oops i mean dollars). ATHs are essential to keep people motivated, so are hofs and globals. spend 500 peds and not get any of those and u start to wonder why u do it, oh yeah i forgot, for the skills. but wait, skills are increasingly more difficult to gain when u got up into the higher lvls. going from lvl 29 prospect to lvl 30 took FOREVER, the last 10% being the most grueling. my point is MA would do well to look at the overall needs of the player base and balance ATHs against normal everyday loots and also skill gains so that the players are getting something back for the time and $ they invest. give me peds or give me skills, and i will give u $. obviously this is all rather pat but sometimes things are just that simple. we all have money to spend, and we all want value for our dollar.

that said i have to tell u all i have been one of the luckiest players in PE. i got 21k zinc my first week mining, i looted an OA-104 unlimited BP my second week crafting. in the first six months i played i looted over 35k peds in hofs and globals not including the 104 bp. i think i have a right to have my vote heard. give us fewer ATHs and better loot for the average player. MA please host regularly held high lvl events for the uber players. ones with rare prizes and bragging rights. that will give everyone a reason to skill up and will keep the ubers happy and challenged. i would love to see televised pvp on entropia tv neo vs stormer. i might even pay a few pecs to watch it live in the Jason bar. well thats my 2 pecs, may lootius lead u all to your own personal ubers

 

[Uni]

Can u explain how ATHs rise prices of items?

I repeat this over&over most of big loots in mining u see from materials
that rose in % at least about 4%-f.x. check the price of narc - and bam
yesterday 40k dropped, in normal case that should lower the price, which should crafting return to "normal" value/prices. If the ores r too expensive theres less crafting and prices on everything go up, leading to less spending $

my

PS: we wont change it, MA is in charge here

 

[Wollongong]

I think it is a bad thing. Capital going to only one person leads to less going to others, reducing the overall spending.

If I have 10 PED, I need to spend 10 PED to hunt.

If I have 1000000 PED, I need to spend 10 PED to hunt. Sure, I might just buy a little more, but chances are that by percentage, I will spend less.

That, plus the demotivation factor (why bother, the chance of me getting it big is minimal compared to the uebers, that idea)

and the downsides mentioned by the OP

 

[Mega]

Can u explain how ATHs rise prices of items?

I repeat this over&over most of big loots in mining u see from materials
that rose in % at least about 4%-f.x. check the price of narc - and bam
yesterday 40k dropped, in normal case that should lower the price, which should crafting return to "normal" value/prices. If the ores r too expensive theres less crafting and prices on everything go up, leading to less spending $

my

PS: we wont change it, MA is in charge here

Well its like if you win big on the lottery you may splash out on a Ferrari. I was speculating that some of the "jackpot" winners may possibly be purchasing some of the top end gear from resellers hiking the prices up.

I know if I scored 50k Ped I'd be tempted to buy some posh toys!

 

[Lykke]

I feel happy for the people getting the biggies - I really do! And I wish all people luck and blessings to get one too ... because, no matter what we say, that is what we hope for ..

but ..

I would much rather see a LOT of people being happy than only a few. Loot in general sucks (for me that is, at least), and has been horrible for a while. If the biggies means that average loot has to get lower - i will say fack it!!! I would rather be able to break even on a regulary basis, than hope for a biggie which might never come - and then get frustrated because of all the money I loose all the time ...

It's only good for the economy if the people getting them keep the money in game ... And nothing can ensure that.

 

[aridash]

they are a very crude way to encourage people to be active, one that fails on me and many others. for me its not just ATHs, even daily 5 figure loots annoy me and make me question if its healthy. it tries to make us hope for the big one, problem is inteligent players know whos I know that for every ATH, everyone else has paid towards that. i dont mind when i see Blackhawk get 40k, or Stomer get his 8th or so, they've put in the time and work on big arse mobs. but it discourages me when i see daily 10 or 20k on some 500hp mob (i dont even look at the crafting and mining lists as it winds me up and i dont want to play when i see new names getting ubers). whats the point of the skills and equipment?

Loot output should have some maximum linked to HP, progressively increasing so large mobs have a larger relative ceiling. If more people are hunting a mob, then more should get a hof or a better average return than drain from them all for one luky winner. Daily ATH and uber hofs just make this look and feel like a casino.

They are not good for the economy in the longer term because the poorer average return needed to fund them drives people away.

 

[Kerham]

Big Ath means also big losses, and if such violent periods as -30k ped in 6 weeks are possible, then something is wrong imo (those -30k is about my pedcard and no, i didn't took an ath prior, is from deposits). Especially when you do things by the book (use L amped, craft maxed bps, etc). I dread to think what that number would have been if I'd have used unmaxed stuff/SIB.

But since MA doesn't care half of shit about how I feel (or anybody else for that matter), then my money take other destination. Just that simple.

 

[DanielleYourMom]

I voted no.

Even though an ATH is what most of us are playing in hopes for - most of us will never see such a loot.

I think handing out 15 x 2k loots would be better than handing out a 30 k ath. Imagine having 15-30 people happy for a few days vs just one.

It's unbalanced anyway you look at it, really.

 

[Echo Biatch]

This is a discussion that is heard regularly in amongst our society.

My personal take on the matter may not be the same as others but I am not telling you to agree or disagree but to read on with an open mind.


I have been an overactive member of EU for almost 3 yrs...I play upwards of 12 hrs a day and when I get stuck into something I play hard!!

With the introduction of 9.0 and the dreaded foot guards there was a mass change to the loot distribution.
Gone were the days of a 75% return on ammo and decay being a bad hunt..
Now we were seeing as low as 25% returns on ammo not to mention decay.

I have been watching my pec very carefully my entire EU life as I dont have an abundence of RL cash to throw around.....

MA stated way back when that UBER loots were made up of money made from advertising and that it would in no way effect the standard loot pool.

Now let us look at this statement a little more closely....
As a miner I have watched my returns and have been able to openly state that an ath is coming and be proven correct within a matter of hrs and I am not alone..I am sure many of you have done the same over and over.

If the ATH was because of advertising only then we would not see a drop in overall loots before the big one.

There are some things that MA have done to keep xyz $$ ingame ie: the huge tt value of an UL version of an L weapon.
Player A loots UL gun tt value 20k with a breaking point of 50% 10k.
This guarantees that 10k ped is going to stay ingame.

I hunted the drones wargens troopers and SEG for at least 10 days straight in the hope of looting a coin..would have been nice to display along side my precious figurines...

I hunted for around 12 -16hrs a day and had losses on 98% of my runs...
most of my returns were not because of the loot itself but the 133% price other players were paying for the Gazz looted.

I only had 4 runs in 10 days that were over the cost of the hunt (ammo and decay) before %.

At the end of the Coin looting period I have no coins to show 1800ped loss on card no HOF and only a handful of globals.....
On those runs where I did not global I was looking at mostly 50% loss on ammo.....

Yes I was uneco with my gun I know this but here is the setup I was running so you can see and judge for yourself what you think.

Full salamander with 6A plates ave decay 200ped ammo 25-ped
Bravo+103 elkarr scope + 2 dynera sights " " 9ped
karma+104 hanzor scope +2 hunnir sights " " 55ped

The decay I spent is not the issue here it is the return against ammo that I watch most closely...

I dont mind seeing ATH's but not every day and certainly not twice a day.

120k to one person while all other miners suffer is not my idea of fun.
That could have been 12 happy miners with 10k or even 120 happy miners with 1k.........

I am a Beacon Babe and it is my one true love in EU.....

so here is another issue for you all to mull over.....

I have not seen a 39 ped beacon looted in 2 yrs and in my time here I have seen as few as 4 42 ped beacons looted.(yes I am sure that there have been a few more but...)

I would like to see MA drop a few more of the larger more challenging beacons for the ubers and the suicidal noobs like me to try and die on.

You can keep some of the people happy some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.....

I would like to see more Entropians happy a little more often

Echo

 

[Joat]

Depends whos economy you talking about.
For players, no I doubt it's good for the rest who don't get ATH.
For MA, yes, since +ROI is concentrated at few players, the rest
lose, and are forced to do either depo or other options to afford to play.
If too many had Ubers (+1k) instead of few with ATH, less is needed to be
deposited, and therefor, this will never happen.
Actually, the worse economy MA has due to what we spend and depo,
the more concentrated will loot be. Best items, highest loot, and so on,
will end up at very few players.
This has killed interest and will kill interest of playing for some, but as long
this strategy works (= MA has a profit) nothing will change.
They for sure rather see few players do large depos, not too many active
and and among those that are active, vast majority will lose in long run.
This has probably more to do with capacity of system (just think of chaos
if all 700k accounts were active ) than that they want it to be that
few are active. In a perfect world they had rather seen all 700k active.

 

[Immortal]

Loot output should have some maximum linked to HP, progressively increasing so large mobs have a larger relative ceiling.

Well they do. The general ceiling of the ath is 10ped-20ped*(HP+regen). However there seem to be anomalies in the system, such as snablez young getting 750 (37.5*hp, 15000*ped_in)..... this suggests that we haven't yet begun to see the REAL big loots on mobs - which seems to be a multiplier of around 6700*ped_in (look at crafting ATH's elkarr, oa101, ma102 all this figure) , similarly, atrox young 9.2 were getting 9k-10.5k giving a multiplier 30-35)

A quick glance reveals:
snable provider - 60 hp, pedin=0.15, ped_out=2275, ratio =15000
dasp young, 7800hp, pedin=20 (probably more), ped_out-90k, ratio=4600
atrox young vu 9.2, 300hp, pedin= .75, ped out =10500, ratio = 14000
seg 02 32740, 1840hp, pedin=4.6, ped_out = 32740, ratio =7000
kingfisher 27906, 1560hp, pedin=3.9, ped_out=27906, ratio=7000
hogglo young, 2000hp, min_ped_in=5, ped_out=42000, ratio = 8100
Tantardion, 780hp, min_ped_in=5, ped_out=17807, ratio = 9100

My guess is we are still yet to see the *really* big loots on some mobs (dasp comes to mind) but it may be that the high end loot multiplier changes with mob hp - however this may be balanced by more "semi high" loots

 

[aridash]

Well they do. The general ceiling of the ath is 10ped-20ped*(HP+regen). However there seem to be anomalies in the system,

i'd say the 5 figure argos, drones and such indicates more than "anomolies" and the user base generated function is way off. going by the examples, its not progressive but regressive, with the snables and atrox ratio being higher than the larger mobs: my point is it should be exactly the opposite.

 

[maxwellhawk]

I said no and this is one of the reasons why (check the date on the post)

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/general-discussion/11142-reflections-nice-hof.html

 

[Baradur]

Intresting discussion and topic

Althought MA stated that the overall ROI should not be changed, it changed in a dramatic manner. Overall returns are the same, however in order to get them you need to hunt longer. The days where you could hunt medium mobs for 200-300 ped / hunt and get a neat 75% return are completely over. Today you need to hunt for 600-700-800-900 ped to get some average loot. This may result in a higher initial investment (peds for ammo) to pull of the same thing you could 1.2-2 years ago.

This will result in big losses or big gains (the stakes are higher). and yes, that is very unpleasant and frustrating - 98% pays for the 2% that gets the jackpot. That implies that you will pay more often (seen the the amount of $ + the frequency of the ATH)..

=>> And do not give me 'ath are paid with the $ that advertisement brings in- BS' I have yet to see the advertisement => the only one I have seen so far (living in West-Europe) is the one with the telephone if that one brings in 10's of k's of $'s well then ...

A more balanced out loot would be very neat and motivating. More consistency...

May I suggest looking at another thread as well?
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/general-economy-discussion/118221-playing-costs.html

It is quite intresting and relevant to this one in some ways.

Regards,
BB

 

[Xandra]

Hi,

have said it many times, will say it again, and voted "NO".

The daily "Uber loots" are bad for EU, because they consume too much from the "common loot pool", leaving not enough PED to ensure a pleasant every-day experience for most of the participants.

The daily "Uber loots" are bad for EU, because especially in case of hunting they are often bound to high HP mobs, making most of them be collected by the same small group of participants again and again. There are exceptions, but these are most rarely.

The daily "Uber loots" are bad for EU, because they made the occaisonal 4-digit loot some happy ones of us receives every other year just "another nice thing" - I remember that I screamed for joy at my first 4-digit one (years ago), today it only means small profit and disappointment when having a look at a shitload of useless TT fodder.

I'd wish another distribution:

• For sure common daily loot cannot be a break-even, EU wouldn't work this way for long. But the percentage of return should be less frustrating, I think.
  .
• I'm not against big Uber ATH's, contrary: I'd like to see 1 (one) high 5 - 6 digit one every, let's say, 3 months. And maybe 8 (eight) high 4 - low 5 digit ones every month. And quite a lot of 3 - low 4 digit ones every day. Reducing the "fat ones" would give room for more "smaller ones", and would give room for a better common everyday loot.

The way we have it now is conforming the "gambling habit" EU has gone more and more - "Win big or lose big". I know a lot of participants are enjoying this, but EU isn't Las Vegas. I do not.

I'd like to see some really awesome loots from time to time, and these might get collected by the "big spenders", no problem. We need "role models", and EU needs to take care for them. But there's no need to feed them every day.

There should be ways more incentives available for the biggest part of the participants (up from P3a for instance, this would include the Ubers too) to get a nice shiny loot more often than now.

And, finally, a better chance for the average Joe Fresh-Depositor not to lose it's fresh deposit in quite some minutes.

I'm not against an occasional fat loot on young Exaro - this is incentive and motivation for young participants, or for older eco-Hunters. We need these.
But a tower of oil at 223m is a little strange, right?

We have a system where skills are determining the use of gear, and the used gear determines what wheel you're able to spin - loot should be given more according to this, instead of giving this high weight to the "random factor" in loot calculation:

- Few fat Uber loots very rarely - these should be this rare that every occurrence would be food for conversation for the whole community, for weeks. And they could be really big! They could even be sponsored by Advertisers, if such beasts even exists:
"Joe TheUber SkillMuncher killed a creature (Warants Provider) with a value of 142.779 PED and has been recorded in the Hall of Fame! This loot has been sponsored by HappyBurgers - munch three, get an ATH!"

- Nice globals/ HoF's more often, even with lower values - there was a time when 500 PED globals would come ways more often than today!

- And, most important, better average loot - the low average return is at the moment repelling this much fresh depositors - how much of them I have FL'ed, talked them into depositing, just to never see 'em again after they burned their initial 200 - 300 PED's in an instant? We need these new people to pay our loot - repelling these is the most dumb move EU is able to do!

Well, have fun!

 

[Ionar]

Voted no.

Cut down the ATH's by half and use the money to reduce the number of no loot/nrf/faliurs. Many people some what happy > a few people extremly happy.

 

[Immortal]

i'd say the 5 figure argos, drones and such indicates more than "anomolies" and the user base generated function is way off. going by the examples, its not progressive but regressive, with the snables and atrox ratio being higher than the larger mobs: my point is it should be exactly the opposite.

So you would prefer that vixen got 450k, and joe schlub got 150ped

 

[Level]

Well they do. The general ceiling of the ath is 10ped-20ped*(HP+regen). However there seem to be anomalies in the system, such as snablez young getting 750 (37.5*hp, 15000*ped_in)..... this suggests that we haven't yet begun to see the REAL big loots on mobs - which seems to be a multiplier of around 6700*ped_in (look at crafting ATH's elkarr, oa101, ma102 all this figure) , similarly, atrox young 9.2 were getting 9k-10.5k giving a multiplier 30-35)

A quick glance reveals:
snable provider - 60 hp, pedin=0.15, ped_out=2275, ratio =15000
dasp young, 7800hp, pedin=20 (probably more), ped_out-90k, ratio=4600
atrox young vu 9.2, 300hp, pedin= .75, ped out =10500, ratio = 14000
seg 02 32740, 1840hp, pedin=4.6, ped_out = 32740, ratio =7000
kingfisher 27906, 1560hp, pedin=3.9, ped_out=27906, ratio=7000
hogglo young, 2000hp, min_ped_in=5, ped_out=42000, ratio = 8100
Tantardion, 780hp, min_ped_in=5, ped_out=17807, ratio = 9100

My guess is we are still yet to see the *really* big loots on some mobs (dasp comes to mind) but it may be that the high end loot multiplier changes with mob hp - however this may be balanced by more "semi high" loots

so if ratio 15000 exists...its possible to hit +100k on feffoid lol, thanks for this useful analysis

 

[aridash]

So you would prefer that vixen got 450k, and joe schlub got 150ped

it would make more sence wouldnt it? but im not suggesting that. im saying the current multipliers for big mobs/rare ores are probably about right, its the ordinary mobs/ores that need to be revised downward. Atrox young shouldnt have a max loot twice the size of Kingfishers, the Atrox young max should be half (if not lower).