Developer Notes #11 - Loot 2.0

Eli

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That doesnt mean that high skills will lead to penalty for killing mobs under your level, it would be suicide for ma to prevent a lvl 50 from killing kerbs or nusul. Its more likely to stop lvl20s killing prots and big tide claws
Yes, that is the only logical direction and I agree, but the key phrase in there is overkill inefficiency and I want to know if that was just someone writing it in there to fluff up word count or if they actually mean something by it. Because I might have as a standard weapon a gun that will one shot kill a snable and I might be running along mining and aggro one and just decide fk it and overkill it to next century.

And the question is, how does that affect the game's calculation of the loot I get from it?!
 

Eli

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:lolup: perhaps this is why they never re-added the sitting position? :ahh:
wait, I think it was because people could move whilst sitting, i forgot what we called it... :scratch2:

We just called it the buttslide....
 

Pham

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If it can be a decent experience for the player who has 3hrs now and maybe 10hrs then but for sure not 14 hrs each day, fine. If not, I actually have not enough time for how many games I can p(l)ay instead.
Second that. Having to spend 16+ hours online to be able to ride the loot waves sucks, feeling being a sucker when you don't is just too damaging to the ego.
It would be excellent if MA don't break the word and actually deliver, such a nice atonement.
But I'm counting days until somebody actually do what I've layed out in another thread and make similar game, running in DHT with it's own cryptocurrency (so players would be rewarded to maintain the infrastructure) on principles of outlawness and anonymity :D
BTW, the whole story about that Canadian(?) Credit Union and its shutdown by the gubment and then inability to use already issued (IIRC, 5 or 6 month already before they stopped working), in my opinion has more to do with 'loads of rich players leak out $3000 in totally uncontrolled fashion' than with 'oops, we cannot find a debit card provider to work with us anymore'
 

Eli

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Just finished through Auktuma's post and it got me to start pondering this a bit differently. I'm starting to wonder if these changes and the act of announcing these changes is MA's way/attempt to save people from themselves, especially new players.

We know that a lot of the foundation for this loot rework has been being laid down for quite a long time. But still there is this perception that the game is a huge gamble. This perception is what new players may often hear on entering. The ol' virtual slot machine....and the allure of high rolling and hitting "the one" can rapidly turn a dream filled new player into a bitter, ramen-infused, ex-entropian. And this isn't only the game's fault. This is the community's fault. This is the players' fault, new and old. The fault on the game is a lack of transparency that creates these theories and myths about loot that can sometimes get so convoluted to figure out fact from fiction. I have, on several occasions, had players genuinely believe that if you put more ammo into killing a mob, you get more loot. So they sit there and let it heal, then shoot it, then let it heal.... They won't hear any convincing to the contrary.

Myths and smoke and dreamers with big jackpot stars in their eyes. So now MA is coming right out and saying, "There IS logic behind all this. What you do DOES matter. It's not just about right-clicking the body to loot. It's how you get there, what you put in." For them to actually come out and say that is a pretty big deal. It means, for those who join, what veterans will say to them isn't going to vary widely between ,"It's a big slot machine" and "You gotta do xyz and abc and wear 123 and get within this range of dpp and..."

It sets some theories straight and confirms that the player actions determine the outcome and hopefully will discourage players with suboptimal set ups aimed at "wining big" (and inevitably losing hard and quitting) to be more realistic and think long term. I might be sounding a bit optimistic here, but this is a pretty high bar for MA to set and I hope they can live up to it, for the sake of the player base.
 

Joat

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When I read all this about Loot 2.0 I couldn't other than giggle.
Why? I've seen this in "old" system too... I've mentioned it too... so many said I was
wrong... so now I wonder, how long have I been a beta tester for this system?? :laugh::silly2:
The pessimist in me also thought that maybe it is easier to do some adjustments on current
system and call it Loot 2.0 instead of just inform about how loot works, considering the shitstorm
that would come?;)
Anyway, a big :thumbup: to MA for this info.
 

silas

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how about making all pills from boxes tt-able, or atleast let us turn them into uni ammo.
 

IvoL

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how about making all pills from boxes tt-able, or atleast let us turn them into uni ammo.
How about first making uni ammo actually useful for melee users (inclusief the 1% gain!)?
 

Rocket192

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How about first making uni ammo actually useful for melee users (inclusief the 1% gain!)?
Not possible without reworking every single melee item in game to resemble something like the ELM melee weapons.

If you think this will happen you're crazy.
 

ZPF

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Not possible without reworking every single melee item in game to resemble something like the ELM melee weapons.

If you think this will happen you're crazy.
Huh, couldn't they just make it so the repair terminal accepts uni ammo instead of PED? :laugh:
 
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Huh, couldn't they just make it so the repair terminal accepts uni ammo instead of PED? :laugh:
aint gonna happen. u could craft a few high tt UL weapons/armors/tools whatever, repair them and tt to pretty much instacycle huge amounts of UA
 

ZPF

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aint gonna happen. u could craft a few high tt UL weapons/armors/tools whatever, repair them and tt to pretty much instacycle huge amounts of UA
That's true.

They would have to add an option to convert shrapnel to something else which can be used solely to repair melee weapons. I doubt they'll do it though.
 

Crone

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Crone worries about this:

"...which will significantly improve overall loot returns for the vast majority (upwards of 98%) of participants."

Is Crone part of the remaining <2%?
 
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Crone worries about this:

"...which will significantly improve overall loot returns for the vast majority (upwards of 98%) of participants."

Is Crone part of the remaining <2%?
yes. because all people who talk about themselves in third person are.
 

Eli

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Crone worries about this:

"...which will significantly improve overall loot returns for the vast majority (upwards of 98%) of participants."

Is Crone part of the remaining <2%?
Crone is not alone.
 

DoA

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Exactly. The whole ideology of loot 2.0 seems to be "the right weapon for the right mob". The guy who's still running around with Xent X3 at lvl 50 will be penalized into the ground so deep all his fancy skill bonus would be lost anyway.

O well, none of us really knows how exactly they intend to do it. Suppose we'll have to wait and see... and I hate it! :laugh:
The problem I see now is that if I have level 20 and I hunt a level 20 mob with a level 20 weapon and there comes a uber with a uber hunting setup (better dpp, dps, etc) and hunts the same mob he gets better returns and since, as you said a couple of time, we play in a (sub) zero-sum game, that means I'll get worse returns.

Now, sure, I may be wrong, but what I think MA is trying to do is to level the field. So the way I see things is like that:

- a level 20 guy using a level 20 weapon on a level 20 mob would get a 100% efficiency (please note I didn't mean 100% as in "perfect efficiency", but just as in 'base efficiency" )

- a level 50 guys using a level 50 weapon on the same level 20 mob would get a 6% bonus from better skill bonus, but at the same time would get a 6% penalty for not hunting on his (and his gear) level (the 6% is just an example that I took here, considering a 1% bonus/penalty for every 5 levels), leaving him at the same total 100% efficiency

- a level 80 guys using a level 80 weapon and a fancy ring hunting the same level 20 mob would get a 12% bonus from better skill bonus, but at the same time would get a 12% penalty for not hunting on his (and his gear) level, leaving him at the same total 100% efficiency

So all three will end up getting pretty much the same loot, none will be penalized - neither the higher level guys for hunting below their levels, neither the lower level guy for not having high skills and high-level gear, while the only people that would actually get penalized would be those hunting above their level.

And if that would be the case, I think this would be a great move in the right direction.
 

cambuurrinse

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can any1 private messige me about my imk2 and if the gun will get killed cuz of its extreme eco? also the value of the gun?

regards cambuurrinse
 

Vagrant

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Crone worries about this:

"...which will significantly improve overall loot returns for the vast majority (upwards of 98%) of participants."

Is Crone part of the remaining <2%?
As I read it the 98% points to the "on average return if you meat all the criterias"...what was previously 90%.
 
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As I read it the 98% points to the "on average return if you meat all the criterias"...what was previously 90%.
nobody ever said that the average return is or should be 90% or 95% or whatever. and i havent seen a single log where this is shown... i dont know how people get this idea?
with a standard setup ecowise (2,95 +-) pretty much everyone i know gets a return of 97-99% tt wise. depending on mob (heavily hunted mobs tend to have higher swings so you need a vastly larger sample size)
 

Vagrant

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nobody ever said that the average return is or should be 90% or 95% or whatever. and i havent seen a single log where this is shown... i dont know how people get this idea?
with a standard setup ecowise (2,95 +-) pretty much everyone i know gets a return of 97-99% tt wise. depending on mob (heavily hunted mobs tend to have higher swings so you need a vastly larger sample size)
Pretty sure 90% has been stated in official context many times..maybe I am wrong.

And for this "with a standard setup ecowise (2,95 +-) pretty much everyone i know gets a return of 97-99% tt wise" ....I guess you know very few people :)
 

Dan59

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Hard to guess future.
Because many features, rules or game mechanic of Loot 2.0 we already have in game.
Loot 2.0 promises way less things as it feel on a first look although it should be recognized that its pr effect is very well thought in MA usual misleading manner.

Let see buff or skill bonus:

Loot 2.0 do not mention that avatar caps will be removed.
So what bonus an level 50 evader full buffed with pills, rings and other magic items will have on mob level 10?

None - because we are CAPPED. Is not that mob will newer hit, mob will hit less than unskilled player but will still hit.
We already have this in game.

What bonus have hunter level 50 using level 10 weapon on mob level 10?
Well text in chat that you failed to hit a mob change from misses to mob evaded attack.
And we are still CAPPED with stats of weapon used.
Is not that we suddenly do more crits or more dps than game mechanics and weapon used allow.
Is not that melee player for example can use his sword 60 times per minute if sword stats have 42 reload.
He can have double agility, strength and all other skills but it will not help because he is capped with weapon used.
Ofc he can use rings or other magic items and buffs just like that unskilled player to perform few percent better but that's all.

We have all this already in game.
We have also decay, ammo consumption and other consumables and expenses all already in game.
What is new?
Promises of changing few rules and game mechanic?
I remember when changing just one rule and ofc without changing item stats killed all investigator professions and killed MU on most scanners.
 

Sub-Zero

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Hard to guess future.
Because many features, rules or game mechanic of Loot 2.0 we already have in game.
Loot 2.0 promises way less things as it feel on a first look although it should be recognized that its pr effect is very well thought in MA usual misleading manner.

Let see buff or skill bonus:

Loot 2.0 do not mention that avatar caps will be removed.
So what bonus an level 50 evader full buffed with pills, rings and other magic items will have on mob level 10?

None - because we are CAPPED. Is not that mob will newer hit, mob will hit less than unskilled player but will still hit.
It doesn't say that it won't either. But my rare optimistic side is telling me they may raise that CAP.
 

morfoc

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Meanwhile at MA, :dancing::dancing:the dance of the summerboxes :dancing::dancing::laugh:
 

nutter

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As I read it the 98% points to the "on average return if you meat all the criterias"...what was previously 90%.
I read it as 98 out of 100 players will see better loot if they hunt wisely.

The return TT wise may stay the same, but other factors (MU for example due to new BP's or a change to crafting, or whatever replaces ammo in loot), will mean the mu loot will be better.
 
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I read it as 98 out of 100 players will see better loot if they hunt wisely.

The return TT wise may stay the same, but other factors (MU for example due to new BP's or a change to crafting, or whatever replaces ammo in loot), will mean the mu loot will be better.
this may get done via different loot groups.

for example a person who doesnt have the right gear (dps, armor, skills) needed for a certain mob will only get loot from group A (shrapnel, oils). someone who gets closer to the optimum receives loot from group A and B (+ wools, hides, whatever) and someone with perfect / optimal equip levelwise for that mob has access to all 3 loot groups A, B and C (rare stuff, weapons, whatever). just needs something like in WoW where there is a special equipment level on each item + an average equip level. if you dont reach the required gear level for that mob you dont receive access to all groups. would be quite easy.
 

nutrageti

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So will my 40+ sets of armors suddenly become valuable or worthless? :))
This can go either way, but I don't see everyone being happy at the end of it. It's gonna be chaos and mayhem and people are going to lose money selling items that have become more valuable now and buying items that are now useless...
 
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So will my 40+ sets of armors suddenly become valuable or worthless? :))
This can go either way, but I don't see everyone being happy at the end of it. It's gonna be chaos and mayhem and people are going to lose money selling items that have become more valuable now and buying items that are now useless...
at least that will bring some movement into the economy. more movement = more opportunity
 

The Jetman

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So will my 40+ sets of armors suddenly become valuable or worthless? :))
This can go either way, but I don't see everyone being happy at the end of it. It's gonna be chaos and mayhem and people are going to lose money selling items that have become more valuable now and buying items that are now useless...
you could give everyone 200ped a month, someone will find an issue
 

sbi

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at least that will bring some movement into the economy. more movement = more opportunity
I'd rather have stability and being able to trust in the value of the gear I bought for a lot of peds. Should MA decide to change loot fundementals to such a degree that the current uber gear looses its edge, it would unfortunately send a clear signal "Don't bother to invest money in good items in this game since we will fuck you up".

Sure... you could earn peds now from trades in a volatile market, and sure your loot as part of the 98% could improve, but you would never be able to progress to the next level where investment in the best gear would be worth it...

Basically I hope MA decides not to f... over those who showed trust in the game and invested the most.

/sbinortz
 

Konstantin

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Just Upgraded your dps and bought high price item? We change a model, Congrats

Have you just spent some xxx$ to buy some dmg/pec weapon? Great! we are changing the model.
Have you just spent a lot for an highly efficient item to get an exciting game play? Great news! Exciting game play now getting cheaper.

Are you tired of selling to TT some ammo of wrong type? No more ammo in loot you ll get something else instead, maybe something you can not even get peds from directly, Let's imagine some 99 pec of shrap instead of 1 ped of wrong type ammo will do.....tsck ...tsck don't mention here...Nova fragments.

And now skill getting important, you see in loot 1.0 you can buy 100 dps rifle at lvl 0 skill and do marvels, in a new model your rifle will be efficient according to your skills.

New system gonna be fair for 98% of participant. Let's pray we are not the remaining 2. :)


p.s. the change so huge will shatter many. Sorry for negative attitude, sure it's not so bad as it looks at first sight. it's just some ppl try do 1 ped mob with tt kit, now they seems to get no loot at all - it a good news. Can't wait to see it.
 
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