Developer Notes #11 - Loot 2.0

[Fyrs]

As I already said a few times, I think we need more gamers and fewer investors... more people that are playing EU because they find it fun and they are OK with spending some money every month to finance their entertainment and less people that are playing EU because they (can) make money out of it.

Obviously... just my 2 cents...

And there in lies the problem...as far as actual game play goes EU is one of the most boring games out there. Pretty much every half decent game I can think of is actually more enjoyable and entertaining to play that EU. EU has two real hooks atm for people - the community (yeah even you shitbird trolls!) and the "chance" to make money out of it. "Fun" options are very limited.

 

[Kurko]

Hi,

I have focused on Atrox Young hunting. I have hunted about 1200 Atrox after Loot 2.0 with 87% TT return. THIS IS NOT FAIR!!!!. Thanks MA this upgrade wan´t as you said to increase return rate. Loot 2.0 have to be bugged at the moment. My average return rate before loot 2.0 was near 100% with eco hunting.

I have lost more than -500ped in last 3 day i have hunted Atrox

I´m near to rage quit

Today my return% increased acceptable level 95%. Whinning always helps

 

[DoA]

I completely agree with you on what it needs to be. I will wait before i consider it a Robin Hood Update. I am not convinced yet and without enough data, it would be too soon to consider it so.

Totally agree with you too. We don't have any statistically relevant data to confirm this. The name I gave it was mostly based on the developer notes, not on practical reality, although, as you also, said in your previous post, preliminary reports seem to suggest (at least among the people I discussed with) that people that were consistently having high returns saw a drop, while people that were having massive losses saw improvements. But, of course, I think we should all wait for the dust to settle and see where we really are; also, I'm sure MA is doing the same analysis (just with access to much more info) from their side and they'll tweak the settings one way or another 'till they reach the desired result. For once, I have faith in them that they're trying to do the right thing.

I agree with you also, but this has not been my experience so far. I am a regular depositor and I play for fun, I never expect to profit - but I still play smart and try to make good decisions to make my deposits last. For me, since the update, this game is now about 10% more expensive.

I've read your other posts and I definitely agree with you that under 90% for someone playing smart and eco is unstainable and not right. I still think that's just because of not big enough sample (under current realities); look at 5$ that was reporting similarly bad results 'till these last two days where he got close(r) to where he thought he should be.

And there in lies the problem...as far as actual game play goes EU is one of the most boring games out there. Pretty much every half decent game I can think of is actually more enjoyable and entertaining to play that EU. EU has two real hooks atm for people - the community (yeah even you shitbird trolls!) and the "chance" to make money out of it. "Fun" options are very limited.

I like it. But, presuming that you are true (and you probably are, since I've heard quite a lot of people claiming the same), then I think that this is actually the problem that has to be addressed - make the game feel more fun and entertaining, not quit trying because it is not there (yet).

 

[RickEngland]

Anyone who can't figure out adding amp (high eco) to a weapon (lower eco) will make the combo more eco, not less eco... should not play this game.
I mean, you should be able to figure this out all on your own, not because someone smarter than you tells you and then you blindly trust him.

I won't win any popularity points for saying this out loud. Sorry for being politically incorrect!

I agree with regards to most guns, take the old LR series for example it made sense to add an amp.

Although I don't think it's as simple as that for all gear, maybe it's a bit of over-analysing.

I often used to think about it like this. If I use a below average sword, the system will know its degrading fast and probably pay loots based on the low durability. If I added a small amp which would only change the damage by a small amount but have a huge impact on the durability measure.....then possibly it could be damaging to loot returns adding an amp.

Or what about adding a amp to those 'one ped' guns? The amp is more expensive to run than the gun.
How does the loot system think under the hood about that.
For me there was a huge issue with trusting what went on under the hood.

So for me it's more about confidence to add an amp in those situations. Assuming of course we trust the eco measure, and believe the system.

I want to believe and grateful for the added stats, although time will tell.

Rick

 

[San]

I like it. But, presuming that you are true (and you probably are, since I've heard quite a lot of people claiming the same), then I think that this is actually the problem that has to be addressed - make the game feel more fun and entertaining, not quit trying because it is not there (yet).

My inkling regarding the purpose of BatSim goes in that direction. Oops, I didn't say that

 

[Fifth]

I agree with regards to most guns, take the old LR series for example it made sense to add an amp.

Although I don't think it's as simple as that for all gear, maybe it's a bit of over-analysing.

I often used to think about it like this. If I use a below average sword, the system will know its degrading fast and probably pay loots based on the low durability. If I added a small amp which would only change the damage by a small amount but have a huge impact on the durability measure.....then possibly it could be damaging to loot returns adding an amp.

Or what about adding a amp to those 'one ped' guns? The amp is more expensive to run than the gun.
How does the loot system think under the hood about that.
For me there was a huge issue with trusting what went on under the hood.

So for me it's more about confidence to add an amp in those situations. Assuming of course we trust the eco measure, and believe the system.

I want to believe and grateful for the added stats, although time will tell.

Rick

I can see why they added the eco stat. Now it's thrown right into your face that the 1 ped guns are just as expensive to run as their older counterparts.

 

[Tekkie]

Tbh, I just want to know what Crone thinks of it all

 

[Fifth]

Tbh, I just want to know what Crone thinks of it all

I suspect Crone is mildly confused by all those fireworks.

 

[eMp]

So... when are they gonna rework the EP blueprints?

 

[Avon(AJ)Jerrix]

And there in lies the problem...as far as actual game play goes EU is one of the most boring games out there. Pretty much every half decent game I can think of is actually more enjoyable and entertaining to play that EU. EU has two real hooks atm for people - the community (yeah even you shitbird trolls!) and the "chance" to make money out of it. "Fun" options are very limited.

I've been saying, and others have been saying, for a long time that the game needs more free, fun, activities to increase retention. MA and the PPs have done some things in that direction. Some of the starter mission chains are fun, but not repeatable (and shouldn't be). The game has some strengths it could use. One obvious one is that the game is huge.

When I first started playing EU, I was looking for a new MMO, and decided I wanted a space MMO as a change from all the swords and monsters. Leave out the RCE and this is a space-themed MMO. What do people who want to play a space-themed MMO want? They want to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before. And so on. Offer a few non-monetary rewards for exploring and you'll keep a lot of players happy for months. And they'll probably buy some clothing, maybe a vehicle or some other stuff, if they stick around a while. There's actually quite a lot of low cost activities that wouldn't be hard to develop, but would still take some resources away from developing the core game. I think the investment in fun, low-or-no cost gameplay is worth it, but MA and other players may not.

 

[Lefty]

I agree with regards to most guns, take the old LR series for example it made sense to add an amp.

Although I don't think it's as simple as that for all gear, maybe it's a bit of over-analysing.

I often used to think about it like this. If I use a below average sword, the system will know its degrading fast and probably pay loots based on the low durability. If I added a small amp which would only change the damage by a small amount but have a huge impact on the durability measure.....then possibly it could be damaging to loot returns adding an amp.

Or what about adding a amp to those 'one ped' guns? The amp is more expensive to run than the gun.
How does the loot system think under the hood about that.
For me there was a huge issue with trusting what went on under the hood.

So for me it's more about confidence to add an amp in those situations. Assuming of course we trust the eco measure, and believe the system.

I want to believe and grateful for the added stats, although time will tell.

Rick

I see the added stats as being very useful new info, and not in any way a replacement for DPP.
DPP is a player-community-created/maintained estimate of a setup's efficiency at converting dollars to damage dealt. Based on having used several different setups enough to consider my sample size adequate (runs below about 2k kills don't count), I am quite impressed with how close this community's DPP figures come to my actual TT returns as measured in TT value of loots versus ammo and decay. That does also mean that for profitability, DPP always comes in after %markup in importance.
The new stat, at first named "Economy" but now renamed "Efficiency", takes a more limited look at a given item's efficiency at converting dollars to damage, and expresses it on a different scale: instead of expressing dollars to damage like DPP does, it compares the item to the most and least efficient items of its type (ie, Weapon). This new stat is then used by the game to influence the quality (not quantity) of loots received. Just as my guess, "quality" might mean item versus stack, rare versus common, etc (my bet is rarity because I've seen firsthand how easy rarity is to incorporate into a loot system). This also means that low "Efficiency" won't affect TT value of loots.

I think the loot system counts ammo not just decay.

A note about DPP calculations on entropedia: Compare the dpp of adjusted and non-adjusted Bukins Spare Rifle, with and without a101 laser amp. The resulting figure shows a drop in dpp for adjusted bukins with a101 on it, because adjusted does 7 damage per shot instead of 6. The math is fun. Analyzing and discussing it should be worthwhile.

 

[DoA]

This new stat is then used by the game to influence the quality (not quantity) of loots received. Just as my guess, "quality" might mean item versus stack, rare versus common, etc (my bet is rarity because I've seen firsthand how easy rarity is to incorporate into a loot system). This also means that low "Efficiency" won't affect TT value of loots.

MA says otherwise

Developer Notes #12 - Loot 2.0 Follow-Up

A few additional points about Efficiency parameter will hopefully clear up many of the questions and dispel some of the more common misconceptions that we have noticed:

• The largest components by far in loot value calculations are costs, such as weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc.
• The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value).
• The displayed Efficiency parameter for a given weapon does not correspond to expected overall loot return.

(And only after that they start talking about optimal loot, so loot composition)

Optimal Loot
Another feature of Loot 2.0 that has sparked lots of discussion and speculation is Optimal Loot.

Also, worth noticing that since there's a direct formula to convert efficiency in DPP or DPP in efficiency, is obvious that they mean the same thing, just different ways to display it. Arguing that is like saying that miles and kilometers measure different things.

Eco rating = 11.5*DPP^2!- 44*DPP + 41.9
Where DPP is defined as max_dmg/cost


Combined_Eco=(sum [cost(x)*eco(x)])/(sum(cost)

 

[Lefty]

MA says otherwise





Also, worth noticing that since there's a direct formula to convert efficiency in DPP or DPP in efficiency, is obvious that they mean the same thing, just different ways to display it. Arguing that is like saying that miles and kilometers measure different things.

Eco rating = 11.5*DPP^2!- 44*DPP + 41.9
Where DPP is defined as max_dmg/cost


Combined_Eco=(sum [cost(x)*eco(x)])/(sum(cost)

Right. This will take a little breaking down to clarify, but I have the time today (catching up on some crafting).

[h=2]Developer Notes #12 - Loot 2.0 Follow-Up[/h] This installment of Developer Notes attempts to clear up some of the questions and misconceptions related to the Version Update 15.15.0 - Loot 2.0.

Economy Parameter (soon to be renamed Efficiency)
One of the most misunderstood features of Loot 2.0 was the introduction of the Economy parameter and its effect on loot calculations. Based on feedback received via support cases and our monitoring of forum discussions, it appears that one cause of confusion is the use of the term ‘Economy’ for this parameter. As such, the Economy parameter will be renamed to Efficiency in the upcoming patch, which more accurately captures the effect of this parameter. Also in the upcoming patch, the tooltip text for the Efficiency parameter will be changed to the following:

Efficiency indicates the cost-effectiveness of a weapon (or weapon attachment) in creating damage. Efficiency values range from 1-100, and higher values indicate better efficiency. Efficiency is an inherent property of an item, and thus is not affected by avatar skills. Weapons that have scopes, lasers or amplifiers attached will display a modified Efficiency value (in orange).​

A few additional points about Efficiency parameter will hopefully clear up many of the questions and dispel some of the more common misconceptions that we have noticed:

• The Efficiency parameter is not affected by avatar skills.
• The largest components by far in loot value calculations are costs, such as weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc.
• The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value).
  [*]The displayed Efficiency parameter for a given weapon does not correspond to expected overall loot return.

And...

[h=2]Developer Notes #11 - Loot 2.0[/h]
Loot Changes

• A new Economy rating parameter will be introduced, on a scale of 1-100, that indicates the efficiency of a tool and which influences loot calculations. This change from the once dominant damage/pec model will provide the design team with more freedom to release exciting and interesting items with a wider range of damage output and special effects. For example, our team will have the ability to create powerful new items that provide access to challenging and exciting content without dramatically increasing cost to play. Existing items will be assigned Economy values that reflect their relative efficiency to one another and to the entire array of items in the universe.

 

[aka_fr0st]

[h=2]Developer Notes #11 - Loot 2.0[/h]


Loot Changes

• Loot calculations will be optimized and improved to better factor in the various costs associated with hunting activity, including: healing, ammo consumption, buffs, tool and armor deterioration, attachments, and more.
  
  
  Originally Posted Here

• 
  
  i was wondering where do ELM and CDF weps stand in this equation? :S

 

[Fifth]

i was wondering where do ELM and CDF weps stand in this equation? :S

Exactly on the same spot where their non-ELM counterparts. Normal version spends more on decay, less on ammo, ELM version spends less on decay more on ammo. Either way the sum of ammo+decay is the same (which explains why their dpp is the same).

 

[aka_fr0st]

Exactly on the same spot where their non-ELM counterparts. Normal version spends more on decay, less on ammo, ELM version spends less on decay more on ammo. Either way the sum of ammo+decay is the same (which explains why their dpp is the same).

well i don't know about you or others playing the game but i've been getting still the same bad returns overall; been hunting the exact same things as before the update and i have a constant return as i did before. playing at low lvl (argo, kerb, bery and now the longtooth adolescents) and been getting the same -10 to -20 ped per run using 2.85 eco and pixie adjusted all the way. dunno if it's just a constant bad luck for me, but i know that my loot hasn't improved at all since i've been hunting in this setup for a long time now. or maybe i am part of the other 2% that MA is talking about, i don't know...

 

[Fifth]

well i don't know about you or others playing the game but i've been getting still the same bad returns overall; been hunting the exact same things as before the update and i have a constant return as i did before. playing at low lvl (argo, kerb, bery and now the longtooth adolescents) and been getting the same -10 to -20 ped per run using 2.85 eco and pixie adjusted all the way. dunno if it's just a constant bad luck for me, but i know that my loot hasn't improved at all since i've been hunting in this setup for a long time now. or maybe i am part of the other 2% that MA is talking about, i don't know...

Sure, bad loot is bad loot. Just saying AFAIK weapon decay and ammo consumption have the same weight in the loot formula... (otherwise, imagine how melee users would get constantly shafted)
Then again, don't listen to me, test everything yourself and if you stumble upon something that works, just go for it.

 

[trance]

I can't say much about new loot system, about since a while, i stoped hunting. But from time to time I try out a small run. So I did my 2. run with loot 2.0.

Gear used: Boar UL / a L sword with 57% eco / 2600 fap / X pill /
200 ped ammo used ( I know, is not much, so don't bear me about this). Hunt creature : LT Guardian

Result: 20 ped profit.

This was the 2. run and both runs was profit.
I know, is to short to say some thing changed. But everyone, knowing about my bad luck, will just say, wow.
At least, it may help to change my mind about stop hunting.

 

[messi91]

I can't say much about new loot system, about since a while, i stoped hunting. But from time to time I try out a small run. So I did my 2. run with loot 2.0.

Gear used: Boar UL / a L sword with 57% eco / 2600 fap / X pill /
200 ped ammo used ( I know, is not much, so don't bear me about this). Hunt creature : LT Guardian

Result: 20 ped profit.

This was the 2. run and both runs was profit.
I know, is to short to say some thing changed. But everyone, knowing about my bad luck, will just say, wow.
At least, it may help to change my mind about stop hunting.

“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win”

 

[Tonhl]

Sorry for noob question, but i didnt get fully one thing:

If i hunt with armour and i heal myself during the fight, i get better or worse loot?
If i get more decay on my hunting gear i get better or worse loot?
And put it in another way:
If i hunt naked and i kill a mob in 3 shots (so very fast) with no overkill, i should get the best loot, right?


Is a stupid question maybe, but i really didnt got it yet :/

 

[Crone]

Crone is still doing 60% overall. Easy to track now with the no ammo dropping. I am getting the bonus shrapnel though.

 

[Detritus]

Crone is still doing 60% overall. Easy to track now with the no ammo dropping. I am getting the bonus shrapnel though.

I think you just fucked up your shtick. You just referred to yourself in the first person in the second sentence.

 

[Sub-Zero]

I think you just fucked up your shtick. You just referred to yourself in the first person in the second sentence.

Sub-Zero has never heard of Crone referring to himself in first person, loot must be so bad, that he even forgot that.

 

[Mac]

Mac ponders third person.

 

[NeutrinoX]

I feel either people are making mountains out of molehills when it comes to Loot 2.0... or the joke used to be on me before.

The one thing I've noticed is yes: less globals, and it's probably a mere psychological effect but the lack of no-looters also drives me to stick around longer. My actual returns have remained mostly the same, if not slightly improved, except the time it takes for me to see an uptick has greatly reduced so instead of having five runs with -50, -50, -50, -50 and then +190 for a net -10 loss I'm getting results more along -10, 0, +15, -10, 0 for a net -5 loss. Sure enough, my sample size is tiny but that's something I'd be more willing to endure in the long term.

 

[AkiranBlade]

Mac ponders third person.

The Blade Of Akire ponders the negative fifty thousand PED explosives deficit.

 

[Haruto Rat]

Mac ponders third person.

Is passive voice being considered as well?

 

[dabrixmgp]

Sweet, going back to the days of old when HoFs meant weapons and armor instead of ammo.

 

[Acro]

Crone is still doing 60% overall. Easy to track now with the no ammo dropping. I am getting the bonus shrapnel though.

Acronoid seems to be in a similar situation. 75% return. Maybe we belong to the 2% that get screwed by this update

 

[Vagrant]

Return seems same to me since before 2.0 ..living the dream @89,9% return after 40 k total