Developer-Notes--2

suppose I play PERFECTLY, then I get regular returns
- suppose then I play MORE PERFECTLIER, I should get above regular returns


I just want to say that I love this quote...

It's perfect, and nothing could ever make it more perfectlier. :cool:
 
Part of the problem is that the indicators you are looking for in the personal/general lootpool debate are essentially the same. Any correction towards some base avatar value can also easily be explained by the "regression toward the mean" in the general lootpool theory. The only thing I can think of which would strongly indicate a personal lootpool is the whole shooting into the air experiment. And this would have to be repeated several times on several different avatars. There would also need to a control group. But for any statistically significant answers I would think this would need to be done on at least 50 avatars. And even if there was no conclusive evidence gained, this would not disprove the personal-lootpool theory either, because MA may just be punishing the avatars for being stupid.

I don't agree to this. Specificly because you should not start out to prove a theory via tests but run a test to see how things work. If you have two systems, so that:
  1. first system does not have any memory, each act of looting is calculated independently of previous loots by the same avatar, however any number of hidden (or visible) variables may be influencing this
  2. second system in addition to any of the same variables tracks the expenditure and adds compensation, either as general rising of loot or compensation hofs, to achieve payback of some pre-determined % of costs

then you will be able to differentiate these two. And you will not need mega-large tests done by tens of people.
 
I don't agree to this. Specificly because you should not start out to prove a theory via tests but run a test to see how things work. If you have two systems, so that:
  1. first system does not have any memory, each act of looting is calculated independently of previous loots by the same avatar, however any number of hidden (or visible) variables may be influencing this
  2. second system in addition to any of the same variables tracks the expenditure and adds compensation, either as general rising of loot or compensation hofs, to achieve payback of some pre-determined % of costs

then you will be able to differentiate these two. And you will not need mega-large tests done by tens of people.

I agree with you. However the difficulty still remains, as the results of any test I can think of, apart from the one mentioned above, would not indicate one over the other.

If there is a memory, it operates over a long time period, as evidenced by the many people with large deficits in their "account", so to speak. And the longer the period over which such a memory system operates, the more its behaviour would approximate random distribution around a mean.
 
...
Around 6 months ago I went to the TT purchased an opaolo hunted snables at Fort Itacha.

This was an eample of the result:

mob 01 - 10: tiny loot
mob 11: empty
mob 12: empty
mob 13: empty
mob 14: empty
mob 15: empty
mob 16: empty
mob 17: empty
mob 18: empty
mob 19: empty
mob 20: empty

...

(While I realise you're using this as an example of the 'efficiency' referred to by MA, I'll take the example to look at the 'personal loot pool' side of their notes.)

Player A who believes in a personal loot pool would probably think "I'll keep going, because MA will pay me back eventually with a big HOF on these" :sniper:

Player B who doesn't believe in a personal loot pool might say "This isn't working :banghead: Maybe I'm hunting the wrong mob for this time of day, or the right mob in the wrong location, or maybe I should go craft or mine instead. Or go do something in RL for a while and try again later."

All MA have said is that Player A's belief is mis-conceived - and thus Player B has a better strategy.
 
Sorry sweety, I just don't experience that. I have the same amount of misses with a 10/10 weapon as I do with 7.4/10.

Do you have recorded data for this? Also, are you using sights and scopes on the 7.4/10 weapon?

What is scientific proof for you? I guess nothing can ever be scientific proof for some people.

I think there's merit in that viewpoint. Scientific method is more about coming up with a theory that fits the existing facts and then trying to falsify it. The more scenarios and data you have that fail to falsify it, the better the theory. But as soon as you have confirmed data that falsifies it, it's time to improve the theory (cf. Newton->Einstein).

In all the experiments I've tried over the years the more eco or efficient you attempt to be, the LOWER the return.

All of mine have gone the other way.

100 mobs is not enough for a meaningful experiment on long-term loot. And again, eco is not about shooting the smallest mobs in-game with the smallest guns.
 
Do you have recorded data for this? Also, are you using sights and scopes on the 7.4/10 weapon?


Oohh please tho I am on your side with the scopes, please don't mention em in this thread!!!

There is enough arguing already without the scope theories :laugh::laugh::tongue2:
 
So you are saying that he should invest a lot of money without expecting anything back? ... And you have to personally attack him for spending money to help the game? ... Wonder who is the deluded one in this case lol

Btw he is not alone ... See the reaction when all big depositors learn that they have just donated their whole deposits to MA and start leaving in droves.

Well I think that investing money into this game is really different then what he has been doing with his money, sorry but if one depoes 30K dollars and only got like 10% back as the person stated then I seriously wonder where the investing part has a place in this. To me this sounds more like burning peds like crazy and expect to get it back.
And imo the mid lvl players/ depoers are the ones of the biggest majority the game runs on not the few Big depositors.
 
ohhh..come on!!

personally i want to put my arm around the guy and offer him some comfort. Which is another thing and it has been mentioned before, what happened to the community spirit?

Have we now got into a situation were there's so much bitterness in game, that people get off on others misfortune.

Poor guy, if he shelled out he deserved better, and I'm saddened we might lose another guy who paid-his-way.

Rick

It's not bitterness Rick, I've been in this mmo since 2005, so I've seen alot of people in this situation, it's the cold hard reality in EU (and I didn't say Project Entropia for a reason)....House always wins.


So you are saying that he should invest a lot of money without expecting anything back? ... And you have to personally attack him for spending money to help the game? ... Wonder who is the deluded one in this case lol

Btw he is not alone ... See the reaction when all big depositors learn that they have just donated their whole deposits to MA and start leaving in droves.

I wouldn't call mining and hunting as investing,whether you like it or not this mmo is like a casino. I did not personally attack him, investing is what I did in Project Entropia and made a decent profit out of it, blowing it on amps and expecting a personal lootpool isn't the right way....sorry.
 
The big "investors" are not buying the game, they just buy PED. Quite a bit of difference right there.


So you are saying that he should invest a lot of money without expecting anything back? ... And you have to personally attack him for spending money to help the game? ... Wonder who is the deluded one in this case lol

Btw he is not alone ... See the reaction when all big depositors learn that they have just donated their whole deposits to MA and start leaving in droves.
 
Well I think that investing money into this game is really different then what he has been doing with his money, sorry but if one depoes 30K dollars and only got like 10% back as the person stated then I seriously wonder where the investing part has a place in this. To me this sounds more like burning peds like crazy and expect to get it back.
And imo the mid lvl players/ depoers are the ones of the biggest majority the game runs on not the few Big depositors.

Yeah Of COURSE investing money is different! If I took the 30K and bought a mod merc and mod fap or other expensive items, I would still have most of it, but I wouldn't have been able to PLAY the game (hunt mine and craft as much I have been). Instead, I used my money to PLAY the game. Because shooting stuff is fun...mining is fun! I WANT to PLAY the game, not sit on an investment, and since the game doesn't allow me to PLAY the game, then I have to stop. After three cyclyes with a 60% return, guess whats left...10-20% of the money I spent PLAYING the game. Unfortunately, it is only fun for me to PLAY the game (hunt, mine, and craft), so that is why I said i was leaving. I understand the difference and your post implies I don't. If the game doesn't allow me to play it anymore, then I choose to stop. I am not complaining about what or why it happened. I am just stating that these returns for someone who spent all their ped PLAYING and not investing, is unfortunately less than I am willing to absorb anymore.

And your last sentence? Wow. Ok, if the mid-level depositors are so much more important, then think of my $30k USD as 30 different $1k depositors. Now, is my leaving the game any less important?
 
Last edited:
It seems "no system in place which tracks each avatar’s returns" has caused a new misconception - some people seem to read it as a description of the basic game mechanics: each click starts from a clean slate, no memory about previous clicks.

It can't be interpreted like this. When you kill a half-dead mob you get a message that it can't be looted because it belongs to someone else. If the system has no record of previous actions whatsoever, how would it be able to do this?
Obviously the system has to keep some records and do some tracking to be able to function, another question is how this info is used. I think the keywords here are compensation for inefficiency and "over time":
[h=3]Developer Notes #2[/h]
... the concept of a “personal lootpool”, claiming that the “system” will eventually provide a sort of compensation to avatars who have been operating in an inefficient manner. Such theories are very much misguided. There is no such thing as a “personal lootpool” for individual avatars, and there is no system in place which tracks each avatar’s returns over time, or which provides compensation to individual avatars.
...

If you leave aside all the confusing technical finesses, the message itself is clear. No personal loot pool.


Now some people claim if no personal loot pool then it's gambling.
Think about hunting, the real profession for myriad of human beings during thousands of years. The more you waste bullets/spears/arrows the better you become. Does it mean you will have guaranteed loot? No, there's still lot of luck involved. Is it gambling? :)
 
Last edited:
So you spent 30k US dollars in hope there's a magical personal lootpool to repay you?seems as though many people have delusions of grandeur, you should seek some form of help regarding the gambling issue. All the best and good luck.

I've always believed in a random , not a personal lootpool so I'm not entirely surprised by this dev log.

Did I expect my returns to be this bad, no? Did I think I might someday be compensated? Yes. I only spent what I can afford to lose, and it was fun for the time I spent, so I do not have a gambling issue. This personal attack shows how weak of a person you are.

Just because I was happy playing this game and spending 30K to give it a good try, doesn't mean that I can't make a decision, based on just how bad my returns are, to stop playing. Furthermore, do you even know what delusions of grandeur means? If it means: yes, I hoped for a better result on my investment, or maybe a few better UL items, then I guess I am deluded grandly. I think we all would want those things though. So you just told every single player here EVER that they have delusions of grandeur because they deposit and want to get something good. You are a genius.
 
It seems "no system in place which tracks each avatar’s returns" has caused a new misconception - some people seem to read it as a description of the basic game mechanics: each click starts from a clean slate, no memory about previous clicks.

It can't be interpreted like this. When you kill a half-dead mob you get a message that it can't be looted because it belongs to someone else. If the system has no record of previous actions whatsoever, how would it be able to do this?
Obviously the system has to keep some records and do some tracking to be able to function, another question is how this info is used. I think the keywords here are compensation for inefficiency and "over time":


If you leave aside all the confusing technical finesses, the message itself is clear.

I know a a few avatars that work on the short term theory, and will continue shooting in one session no matter what until they either hof or run out of peds. Their loot swings are massive, but these guys do pull some incredible loots. i'm not sure if this is possible anymore with the 1K hunting loots rather than the 20K's.

Anyhow they get caught out eventually, but had a blast doing it.

So maybe MA holds data for a week or month , or few months only, then past is past no recovery. Which if this is the case it's very interesting, becasue it could mean you could hit a massive hof, it you pile in peds over a few day period.

LOL...I can see the comments coming already.

ohh message to Sol, no it was just a general comment really, about people that spend too much getting bad press. not a personal attack on your sir. plus I have to rush posts in my short breaks at work, so don't have time for deep thought and written replies.

Rick
 
So maybe MA holds data for a week or month , or few months only, then past is past no recovery. Which if this is the case it's very interesting, becasue it could mean you could hit a massive hof, it you pile in peds over a few day period.

LOL...I can see the comments coming already.

That would be what is referred to as a "personal loot pool" or "long term tracker". :dunce:
 
Did I expect my returns to be this bad, no? Did I think I might someday be compensated? Yes. I only spent what I can afford to lose, and it was fun for the time I spent, so I do not have a gambling issue. This personal attack shows how weak of a person you are.

Just because I was happy playing this game and spending 30K to give it a good try, doesn't mean that I can't make a decision, based on just how bad my returns are, to stop playing. Furthermore, do you even know what delusions of grandeur means? If it means: yes, I hoped for a better result on my investment, or maybe a few better UL items, then I guess I am deluded grandly. I think we all would want those things though. So you just told every single player here EVER that they have delusions of grandeur because they deposit and want to get something good. You are a genius.

No, far from it actually, the way I see it if you can afford to spend 30k 60k or even 90k and are happy that's great, they way I see it, this is a game....a hobby,if you make some decent profit (like i did pre V10) great!but you should never expect a full or 90% return on things when you are amping or hunting,it's a risky...with my money I bought shops and spent time stocking it up,it made money.

Anyway I think you should go to the MA website and check out their financial reports, very interesting indeed Sir.

P.S Dont feel insulted,it was only a view,nothing personal at all.
 
Did I expect my returns to be this bad, no? Did I think I might someday be compensated? Yes. I only spent what I can afford to lose, and it was fun for the time I spent, so I do not have a gambling issue. This personal attack shows how weak of a person you are.

Just because I was happy playing this game and spending 30K to give it a good try, doesn't mean that I can't make a decision, based on just how bad my returns are, to stop playing. Furthermore, do you even know what delusions of grandeur means? If it means: yes, I hoped for a better result on my investment, or maybe a few better UL items, then I guess I am deluded grandly. I think we all would want those things though. So you just told every single player here EVER that they have delusions of grandeur because they deposit and want to get something good. You are a genius.

I dont want to be kicking you when you are down so to speak, and you do have my sympathy for your losses, but one minute you are saying you did not invest but were playing a game and having fun and the next you hoped for a better return on your investment.
I know its also not really fair to point to your tracker but you favourite mob is atrox, you craft lvl2's that you pay markup on the materials, at a rate you have to TT the end result and you mine with big amps with markup on a taxed area with low markup ores, you then get 60% TT return and nowhere did you think that maybe you should try something differently? Your really told yourself, without having any evidence to back this up, that you would magically get your losses back and a return on your investment if you just kept on doing the same thing over and over despite bad results?
now i am not some uber player, but i tried 1k HP mobs with a 12K bankroll and it did not go well, the mobs i tried it on did have markup loot, but after losing half that bankroll for the 2nd or 3rd time i stopped doing this and changed how i played. And i wasnt getting 60% return all the time for this to happen, my returns were higher.
To me it really looks like you were chasing a big hof/ath without sufficient bankroll or the understanding of the risks involved.
 
Okay maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. I am simply saying, the more mobs you can kill for the same amount of ped, thats being eco. The better your eco is, obviously you're going to kill more for your ped. It's not being eco like others have said to use an eco gun on a mob with high regen, that is stupid. What MA is saying is that if you're a tard and try to kill a prot with a tiny gun and let the mob regen a ton, you are not going to get "compensated" by using more ammo and such. The mob will pay out the same no matter what you do in killing it. Its a matter of reducing your costs to kill which will increase the amount of loot you get in return, thus approaching that 90% mark. If you arent being very eco, you arent going to get around that 90% mark. This is what I meant. They are more or less stating a common sense type deal, anyone who thinks playing the game stupid and the system will adjust for your stupidity is well, stupid.
 
Anyone made an effort to read the dev notes keeping in mind that "compensation for losses" is not distinct?

MA will, of course, not compensate you for losses you spend on MARKUP, that's nothing new.

If anything, they compensate you for TT losses only - their post does in no way state what kind of losses they talk about, "TT only" or "total, including markup".
 
IWhen you kill a half-dead mob you get a message that it can't be looted because it belongs to someone else. If the system has no record of previous actions whatsoever, how would it be able to....

I thought the system only looked to see if the looter did more than 50% of the damage. It doesn't care who did the damage. Only if you did.
 
I thought the system only looked to see if the looter did more than 50% of the damage. It doesn't care who did the damage. Only if you did.

It obviously tracks all the damage dealt - or how would you explain loot distribution in teams and for "shared loot" event mobs?
 
It obviously tracks all the damage dealt - or how would you explain loot distribution in teams and for "shared loot" event mobs?

Not only does it track who did how much damage to which mobs, it also tracks what kind of damage you did. And this can be easily and reliably demonstrated.
 
If anything, they compensate you for TT losses only - their post does in no way state what kind of losses they talk about,

Actually they don't. Please read the notes again :)
 
Not only does it track who did how much damage to which mobs, it also tracks what kind of damage you did. And this can be easily and reliably demonstrated.

Kind of damage, too? Why should that matter?
However, it is obvious that they track a lot of things:

Anyone remember the global Haxtor moogle had?
The servers went down, the ammo was reverted and the stuff from the global was gone as he logged back in - and then he had a global of exactly the same size, just as if the system decided he is due. This if loot aint personal, they have changed it recently, because it sure was 2+ years ago.
(Would explain why my losses did skyrocket recently doing the same things i always did)


Actually they don't. Please read the notes again :)

They don't "in no way state what kind of losses they talk about"??

That's a bit much negations we have now... :laugh:

Does that mean you actually confirm my observation (no word on type of losses) or dispute it?
(The "read again" hints the latter, while your choice of words appears to back up my claims)
 
Is this playing efficently?

 
Is this playing efficently?

That just might mean that you are a lucky f***er.
I've seen people with imp.MK.II's and high skills loot those too, doesn't really say anything.
 
This post is just some thoughts of mine about the subject, not saying anything
really is like I mention in it... ;)

No idea if MA still use same tactics as they seemed to do years ago, saying one
thing that is vague and could be twisted in many ways. This is (were?) a
good way to do it ofc, even if we don't like it. Too much clear facts could be
doing more harm than good ...

But lets do a theory out of the comment of theories from MA... :D ;)
They say they don't track avatars record over time and so on, but isn't it
in relation to a theory called Personal loot pool, and not about the actual way
the loot pool works? I doubt it but who knows?

Well, to be a bit more serious, I do see a lot of alternatives in their statement.
Time to dig up some old (and not so old ) theories and thoughts I've had,
and see if something fits those... someday. :D
 
gz :)

Soooo ... which color underwear suits Kreltin?

LOL my trust lava pants

That just might mean that you are a lucky f***er.
I've seen people with imp.MK.II's and high skills loot those too, doesn't really say anything.

Must admit my loot been good in 2012, but I have upped my hunting to bigger mobs considerably.

OK time for some facts folks and beef up the discussion. MA might not track your loot, but they certainly do track your kills, and maybe even track your shots and I can prove this is fact.

When I went to RT recently after a long break, I entered the planet and recieved a ton of achievements. now I dont hunt much on RT, so this must be by my overall kills across all planets.

To be honest I'm surprised I didn't unlock 1 million kills over the years, but maybe on 900k, or maybe this on only from when achievements started? The fact is MA are tracking something.

pic below.



Maybe this might give sunsout a good rethink about leaving and maybe just drop those amps.

get chatting

Rick
 
There you go one million shots, and no way did I do this on RT.

 
Back
Top