Developer-Notes--3

Its just that there is not one log to show what you are saying....ever....in PE. So i presume you understand my hesitation at your what are saying?

Well, yes.

You were hesitant about my math skills, too... :laugh:

However, i know what i am doing, i am familiar with the aspects of scientific research and am pretty anal about it, too. I have made screenies of every claim back then and kept detailed logs - until cryengine messed all the mining locations up.
(did you know there was a small lyst/oil area at every server border?)

I restarted building the resource location info until the did the unthinkable and change the resources in one of my favourite mining spots. They have NEVER done that before.

And on the last robot invasion the reduced all resources in a bot area to lyst/oil...


It's not like there are no logs, but i have deleted a lot because of ingame changes.
This does not mean that these numbers are lost, i just cannot publish them, and frankly, i don't really care if anyone believes me, but for me some things are a proven fact, based on my own data of 5 years "per aspera ad astra" mining without amps and other fancy shit.
 
Well, yes.

You were hesitant about my math skills, too... :laugh:

However, i know what i am doing, i am familiar with the aspects of scientific research and am pretty anal about it, too. I have made screenies of every claim back then and kept detailed logs - until cryengine messed all the mining locations up.
(did you know there was a small lyst/oil area at every server border?)

I restarted building the resource location info until the did the unthinkable and change the resources in one of my favourite mining spots. They have NEVER done that before.

And on the last robot invasion the reduced all resources in a bot area to lyst/oil...


It's not like there are no logs, but i have deleted a lot because of ingame changes.
This does not mean that these numbers are lost, i just cannot publish them, and frankly, i don't really care if anyone believes me, but for me some things are a proven fact, based on my own data of 5 years "per aspera ad astra" mining without amps and other fancy shit.

Cryengine update was a real pain in the ass, but i was lucky and made a killing off Zand when it was 1000% and not many people were mining there

Lyst oil was a nightmare

Rgds

Ace
 
they DID track TT returns in the past and that the system has changed.

how do you explain all the similar complaints from people about their TT returns during the "personal loot pool" era? how do you explain the people that had more than 100% TT return during this period? How do you explain some non-depositors getting loot at all if it was meant to only come out of their personal pool?
Can you not think of any other mechanism that doesnt include personal tracking of every single avatars TT returns that gives a result that would make people think there is a personal loot pool? :)
 
how do you explain all the similar complaints from people about their TT returns during the "personal loot pool" era?

I don't really understand the question - i have never said loot was all cozy for everyone.

how do you explain the people that had more than 100% TT return during this period?

There is no real proof that this ever happened, despite one thread made by star.
However, this thread included not what he may have lost before starting his thread (sitting in his personal loot pool and making his returns >100% over a certain period of time)
And we do not know for sure whether i.e. auction fees (and other expenses) end up in the personal loot pool, too - so if you sell a lot of high markup stuff, you might very well end up 100%+ all the time.

Just to make this clear:
Marco has confirmed back then that auction fees go back into the loot pool (he did not use the word "personal" though, to be precise)

How do you explain some non-depositors getting loot at all if it was meant to only come out of their personal pool?

Another question i do not really understand - what got deposits to do with losses?
Can a non-depositer not lose 1000s of PEDs he has earned in trading, for instance, and fill his "personal loot pool" this way?

And, i am quite sure that MA gives little "freebies" to newbies, as in "promotional giveaways".
(I am 100% sure they give newbies something with a markup quite regularly)
This is not uncommon and explains why a 3 day old newb can hits 10k+ loots.

Can you not think of any other mechanism that doesnt include personal tracking of every single avatars TT returns that gives a result that would make people think there is a personal loot pool? :)

Why would they design a system that should look and feel like a personal loot pool and then make nonsense of their own charade by posting "there is no personal loot pool" in the dev notes?
Does that make much sense to you?



However, every possible scenario not tracking personal losses i can think of is gambling to a non-trivial degree:

I.e. people keep mentioning that MA uses the law of large numbers to pay out 90% of the kill costs.

Roulette does exactly the same, ever read the payout statements from online gambling sites?

Roulette odds are 36/37 (or 37/38) if you bet on single numbers, and if you play long enough, you will eventually reach an average payout of exactly that percentage of your wager.

It's just... nobody would ever claim that roulette is not gambling, whereas MA does indeed claim that their system is not gambling.




The only (non-gambling) factor left is that a game is predominantly "skill based" (real life skills, mind you!) and those are hardly involved in EU (outside of PvP, at least).



If anyone could come up with a system that does not require tracking of personal losses and is not just roulette in disguise (see above), i'd be more than happy to hear about it!!!!
I'm out of ideas.
 
Wow, some have trouble accepting reality...

If the "personal loot pool" loot system actually existed, THAT would have been gambling!

It's not a component of randomness that defines something as gambling, but the complete lack of influence over the outcome! Emphasis on complete lack of influence. A slot machine that pays out 90%, but in a non-random way, would've still been gambling, it would just been easier to catch on that you actually have no influence over the result.

So, if you play a game where you can't influence the outcome, that's called gambling, Roulette, slot machines, lottery - all pure gambling. If you can influence the outcome a little, though, it's a little different from gambling. If you can SIGNIFICANTLY influence the outcome, then it is SIGNIFICANTLY different from gambling! If EU isn't significantly different from gambling to you, then it's because you're playing it like it was a slot machine, just pulling the lever and IGNORING all the aspects of influence where you could've improved your efficiency (probably bashing all who told you eco matters). Yeah, you probably subscribed to the "personal loot pool" myth because it made the losses seem not lost, but remembered, so you could continue hoping for the big one, believing everybody gets the abysmal 90% TT back, no matter what. Nothing new here, all gamblers subscribe to this kinds of myths - it's simply a rationalization for their losses.

Just like a slot machine guarantees you a fixed long-term X% return rate if you keep pulling the lever, a "personal loot pool" would guarantee you a fixed long-term return rate, let's say 90%, regardless of how you "pull the lever". Using eco or non-eco gear, you'd get 90%. You'd shoot in the air, you'd get 90% - eventually, when you'd decide to actually kill something, of course. That would've been a ridiculous system, completely eliminating the importance of any skills, not to mention how inefficient it would've been from a technical viewpoint (would require tracking historical expenditure for an effect that amounts to what a slot machine achieves without memory).

Compared to the "personal loot pool" nonsense, the actual loot system where loot is scaled, primarily, by the total inflicted damage, is definitely not gambling. In such a system it actually matters that you inflict damage at the lowest cost possible, which, then, directly translates into higher return rate (return divided by cost) for you, the smarter player (you didn't expect to do good playing dumb, or did you?). If you shoot in the air, you obviously inflict less total or no damage, hence less or no return at all. If you use less eco gear, your return rate will be less, since your cost is higher, also. And it's super easy and efficient to implement, since it's basically reduced to picking a random value from a predefined distribution and scaling it by total damage inflicted. No need to review and track historical expenditure at all. The key thing here is how much you buy the damage for. Obviously, the lower, the better.

Since EU gets compared to a casino a lot, let's make sure the analogy is accurate. If EU was a casino, let's say a slot machine, then it's a slot machine where the cost of a lever pull is not fixed, but variable. How much you pay for pulling the lever is largely up to you, whereas in a casino it is not, because the price is fixed - hence, it's pure gambling. I'm not even going to go into the fact that what you loot in the EU style "slot machine" can be cashed in for variable amount of money, where you, again, have some significant influence. Of course, the EU "casino" has an additional risk of increasing average player efficiency (compared to an actual casino, where the return rate is fixed and can't change). Hence, the adjustments (which, probably, reduce to the adjustment of the average TT return rate in a way that keeps EU operating at a positive cash flow).

So, in summary, "personal loot pool" would give you a fixed return rate, no matter what - compared to the actual loot system, that actually rewards efficiency. The "personal loot pool" would obviously have been pure gambling, with no influence over your "personal" outcome. On the other hand, the actual system gives you quite a lot of influence over the outcome. Just compare damage/pec for various weapons, think of all the gear combinations you're able to use against a certain mob (efficient vs non-efficient armor, healing tools and weapons), think of all the play styles that can be used with varying costs (e.g. 10% overkill vs 2% overkill, tanking mobs mobs 100% of the time, while you could've avoided half of the hits and reduced defensive cost to 50%, etc), etc.

No, IT'S NOT GAMBLING and it never was. But, seems people who like to pull levers with a fixed return rate would have liked it.
 
If eco matters, how can you get a better eco than having someone ELSE pay 40% of the kill costs?
This should result in a clear DIFFERENCE to normal loot.
Here we have logical error, a clear textbook case:
  1. You assume the way you kill the mob influences the loot.
  2. You prove this theory is wrong.

Good work!
Just one small detail - it was your own theory. :laugh:

MA has never said that being more eco will change your loot. They didn't claim the opposite either, there's simply no word about this connection, anywhere.

After this it's obviously NOT important what you think it is that should change your loot: double bombing, no double bombing, using opalo+E15 on snables, letting others do the damage... you could as well add "standing on the crossroad at full moon when doing the last shot" to this list - it's all irrelevant in this context.
 
How much you pay for pulling the lever is largely up to you, whereas in a casino it is not, because the price is fixed - hence, it's pure gambling.

No it's not.

To a degree it is, but for most players the eco weapons (imk2+a204) are out of reach. And in other cases, the availibility of weapons at certain levels is scarse. Originally, these weapons dropped - imk2s from longu. Mod fap from feff. Mod merc from goki. But not anymore - you practically have to cash up if you want one. And typically the players who have cash enough to buy an imk2 are the ones who had it from the beginning anyway.

If someone runs a casino where there is a VIP room where invited can enjoy higher returns, and where the visitors pay their chips in different ways - loans from sharks (at say 150%), with cash at nominal rate (100%) and some use creditcards with bonus system and practically only pays 95% for their chips, then it wouldn't be a casino because every visitor can influence his/her own cost?

If you play a slot machine, for each new game you have the same chance of hitting the jackpot. Same thing with mining.

To a degree skills reduce the cost (HP and higher evade makes you die less). But when it comes to using (L) weapons, it's the daily demand and availibility that sets the price and for natural reasons, mid-level gear is usually the most expensive - the easy explaination is that there is a bigger mass of players who want to use it (=the best weapon they can practically use at their skill level).
 
A lot of theories around (not just in this thread, ingame too ;)).
Would be interesting to see how people think loot is actualy built up.
Sure, be more efficient and get better long term return, but how is the loot
cycle really working, from a per interaction p.o.v and up?
Not many answers to that imo...
 
So, if you play a game where you can't influence the outcome, that's called gambling, Roulette, slot machines, lottery - all pure gambling. If you can influence the outcome a little, though, it's a little different from gambling. If you can SIGNIFICANTLY influence the outcome, then it is SIGNIFICANTLY different from gambling! If EU isn't significantly different from gambling to you, then it's because you're playing it like it was a slot machine, just pulling the lever and IGNORING all the aspects of influence where you could've improved your efficiency (probably bashing all who told you eco matters). Yeah, you probably subscribed to the "personal loot pool" myth because it made the losses seem not lost, but remembered, so you could continue hoping for the big one, believing everybody gets the abysmal 90% TT back, no matter what. Nothing new here, all gamblers subscribe to this kinds of myths - it's simply a rationalization for their losses.

<snip>

Since EU gets compared to a casino a lot, let's make sure the analogy is accurate. If EU was a casino, let's say a slot machine, then it's a slot machine where the cost of a lever pull is not fixed, but variable. How much you pay for pulling the lever is largely up to you, whereas in a casino it is not, because the price is fixed - hence, it's pure gambling.

Many slots, especially video slots, have an 'optimal' strategy. Deuces Wild for example:

http://www.casinoadvisor.com/optimum-strategy-for-deuces-wild-article.html

In Entropia, we call that efficiency. Lose as little as possible until you win big. In addition, most slots do have a variable cost. In most slots you CHOOSE how much you want to wager per pull. Some slots you can choose to wager between 2 cents and $1.00. This is very similar to how in Entropia you can choose between hunting a low level mob and a high level mob.
 
Here we have logical error, a clear textbook case:
  1. You assume the way you kill the mob influences the loot.
  2. You prove this theory is wrong.

Good work!
Just one small detail - it was your own theory. :laugh:

It was not my theory, it came up on the last pages of this thread.
Good job at careful research, Holmes.

MA has never said that being more eco will change your loot. They didn't claim the opposite either, there's simply no word about this connection, anywhere.

Read dev notes #3.

"Eco matters" could of course mean that eco will help you collecting karma points in heaven only, but i stick to the most obvious interpretation of that statement: That "more eco" means "better loot".


After this it's obviously NOT important what you think it is that should change your loot: double bombing, no double bombing, using opalo+E15 on snables, letting others do the damage... you could as well add "standing on the crossroad at full moon when doing the last shot" to this list - it's all irrelevant in this context.

You missed the point, or judging from your lines above, try to misinterprete what i said on purpose.

Loot MUST be based on SOMETHING. If you don't agree there is no point in argueing with you any further.

And, as you appear to reply only to provoke me, i hereby inform you that the next post in that manner will net you a nice and cozy place on my ignore list - you have no own arguments, you just love to take something i said, twist it so it does on first glance look like what i said - it now has just a completely different meaning than my lines - and the you take pride in leading these constructs ad absurdum. You're my hero, really.

:banghead:
 
"Eco matters" could of course mean that eco will help you collecting karma points in heaven only, but i stick to the most obvious interpretation of that statement: That "more eco" means "better loot".

Well, not really "Eco matters" not in the loot it gives out but the amount of ammo and decay you put into a mob to kill it.
 
Well, not really "Eco matters" not in the loot it gives out but the amount of ammo and decay you put into a mob to kill it.

Ok, then let's do some hair splicing:

More loot per ammo spent.

Happy now?

It does, however, mean that being more eco changes your loot, or in other words, improves your loot relative to the ammo spent = "better loot".

That clearly disproves Fifths objection, the main purpose behind my statement.
 
Ok, then let's do some hair splicing:

More loot per ammo spent.

Happy now?

Always been happy myself:wtg:

All that I was saying is from what I got from the notes, eco does matter in that if one goes out with the largest gun in game and starts hunting puny's. That there isn't all that eco and I think that there is what he was trying to point out. To make the most of your money here, you need to watch what weapons, as well as armor, to use for each type of mob.
 
I didn't think Dev Notes 3 thread would get as long as Dev Notes 2 thread, but it almost has.

Cant wait for Dev Notes 4, some miners or crafters to upset I suppose.


I do have to question the thread starters purpose and whether it is achieving the desired results.
There are now people believing these official communications and those that dont.

It's causing some to quit and some to play less. Is it causing others to join and play more to compensate?
[Discuss 30 points]
 
Always been happy myself:wtg:

All that I was saying is from what I got from the notes, eco does matter in that if one goes out with the largest gun in game and starts hunting puny's. That there isn't all that eco and I think that there is what he was trying to point out. To make the most of your money here, you need to watch what weapons, as well as armor, to use for each type of mob.

Let's have a glance on what i said again:

"more eco" means "better loot"

That's what i read from the dev notes #3, too
So, in perfect agreement, i consider the issue solved.


Loot has always, always always always, been expressed as relative to what you spend.
That's why return rate is given as percentage.


What Fifth said was this:

MA has never said that being more eco will change your loot. They didn't claim the opposite either, there's simply no word about this connection, anywhere.

And when loot IS RELATIVE TO expenses, loot does change (improve) when your kill costs differ (decrease), this effect is also known as "playing more eco".

Simple math. Seriously. I don't even understand why we need to argue about this.





It's just... i don't think this is true.

Cant wait for Dev Notes 4, some miners or crafters to upset I suppose.

Me, too - in mining, there are no toys like a super eco mod merc or stuff.

Extra cheap excavators make hardly any difference, so how is "being eco" defined there?


I do have to question the thread starters purpose and whether it is achieving the desired results.
There are now people believing these official communications and those that dont.

You restore my faith in humanity - i really thought nobody else is seeing this.


It's causing some to quit and some to play less. Is it causing others to join and play more to compensate?
[Discuss 30 points]

It might be excellent news for gambling addicted newbies, because they don't have to lose in order to hit big and no old losses they hope to recover.
But then again, we know how many of the newcomers stay longer than the "infamous three months", so nothing gained here, for sure.
 
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@wizzszz

There is nothing in the notes that connects loot to expense to kill. All they said is "eco matters".

Rgds

Ace
 
@wizzszz

There is nothing in the notes that connects loot to expense to kill. All they said is "eco matters".

Rgds

Ace

The "eco matters" connects the loot to the "expense to kill" - you might have missed that bit:

And when loot IS RELATIVE TO expenses, loot does change (improve) when your kill costs differ (decrease), this effect is also known as "playing more eco".

Or, to falsify the inverse statement, are you saying that playing more eco does not improve loot?

Why should eco matter then, if it doesn't improve your loot?
Because it's cool and the girls love it when you wield a gun worth an average workers annual salary?


:scratch2:
 
The "eco matters" connects the loot to the "expense to kill" - you might have missed that bit:

And when loot IS RELATIVE TO expenses, loot does change (improve) when your kill costs differ (decrease), this effect is also known as "playing more eco".

Or, to falsify the inverse statement, are you saying that playing more eco does not improve loot?

Why should eco matter then, if it doesn't improve your loot?
Because it's cool and the girls love it when you wield a gun worth an average workers annual salary?


:scratch2:

mob x has an average loot return of y. if i hunt this at 100% effeciency, i'll get the full average loot, or as near as possible. if i hunt at 80% effeciency i'll get only 80% of the loot available. theoretical of course, how long is the average of etc. point it the loot doesn't change, my costs change and my results change. as the Notes says:

An avatar will enjoy much better overall hunting results over time when using weapons with higher damage per pec.

Results != loot. Results = Loot - Expences

the question was raised above, what is the loot based on? well HP is the obvious answer.
 
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Why should eco matter then, if it doesn't improve your loot?

Easily like this....Least cost to kill mob X = 100 ped, MA algorithm payout 95 ped

Eco warrior avatar kills mob at 100% eco = 100 ped cost to kill, ma pays 95ped, total cost = 5 ped
Uneco warrior kills mob at 95% eco = 105ped cost to kill, ma pays 95ped, total cost = 10 ped

Loot hasnt changed, and as MA stated in the dev notes "eco player will see better long term results" or whatever it was. Least cost to kill = better returns....!

I very much doubt if loot was linked to anything other than mobs health.....imagine trying to code loot linked to every avatar, every weapon, it would be a nightmare. Mobs health....simple and easy.


Rgds

Ace
 
mob x has an average loot return of y. if i hunt this at 100% effeciency, i'll get the full average loot, or as near as possible. if i hunt at 80% effeciency i'll get only 80% of the loot available. theoretical of course, how long is the average of etc. point it the loot doesn't change, my costs change and my results change. as the Notes says:

Easily like this....Least cost to kill mob X = 100 ped, MA algorithm payout 95 ped

Eco warrior avatar kills mob at 100% eco = 100 ped cost to kill, ma pays 95ped, total cost = 5 ped
Uneco warrior kills mob at 95% eco = 105ped cost to kill, ma pays 95ped, total cost = 10 ped

Loot hasnt changed, and as MA stated in the dev notes "eco player will see better long term results" or whatever it was. Least cost to kill = better returns....!

I very much doubt if loot was linked to anything other than mobs health.....imagine trying to code loot linked to every avatar, every weapon, it would be a nightmare. Mobs health....simple and easy.


Rgds

Ace



And in which way does this contradict what i said above?
Loot is connected to expense to kill.


Results != loot. Results = Loot - Expences

I have no idea what you are trying to do here, "Results" improve when loot improves - or when you somehow manage to lower your expenses. Nicely dovetails with what i said above.



Aridash, i am really fed up meanwhile - you do pretty much everything to disprove me, and in the attempts you post SUCH utter nonsense, it is not funny anymore. Drop your obsession, mkay?
 
If maxed, will loot be the same with a BA 2x0 vs a ModMerc against a mob without regen?
If maxed, will ROI be better with a BA 2x0 vs a ModMerc against a mob without regen?
 
If maxed, will loot be the same with a BA 2x0 vs a ModMerc against a mob without regen?
If maxed, will ROI be better with a BA 2x0 vs a ModMerc against a mob without regen?

Oh, it's even better - if what they say is true they let people run around with weapons like the Mux-2 EnergyGlove (2.065) which hardly anyone has the skills for (no SIB = Level 100 required), just to tell us now that i.e. the Embra Laser Sword C1 (L) Improved (4.357) which is maxed ~ level 12 (!) not only does more than twice the damage per pec (nominal), it is way easier to max out, which raises the advantage to three times the damage per PEC or more...

And not everyone cares about related fan sites and has access (or the patience) to research how eco his gun is, most newbs use weapons they find cool...
 
Oh, it's even better - if what they say is true they let people run around with weapons like the Mux-2 EnergyGlove (2.065) which hardly anyone has the skills for (no SIB = Level 100 required), just to tell us now that i.e. the Embra Laser Sword C1 (L) Improved (4.357) which is maxed ~ level 12 (!) not only does more than twice the damage per pec (nominal), it is way easier to max out, which raises the advantage to three times the damage per PEC or more...

And not everyone cares about related fan sites and has access (or the patience) to research how eco his gun is, most newbs use weapons they find cool...

Its a good question as to why we have a long list of weapons in game, that must have then always been utterly useless. Mann MPH anything. All the killian blades. All the non-sib powerfists. Castorian combat enblade 1-10. All the clericdaggers. Castorian survival enblades 1-10.

Why even introduce such?
 
Its a good question as to why we have a long list of weapons in game, that must have then always been utterly useless. Mann MPH anything. All the killian blades. All the non-sib powerfists. Castorian combat enblade 1-10. All the clericdaggers. Castorian survival enblades 1-10.

Why even introduce such?

They might be bad for the "overall return over time" but are they total crap in
every individual loot interaction?
No, they aren't imo, but yes, they will most probably cost the average player more over time thou'...
 
Just to make badly designed and balanced game.

Edit. {removed}Why i am being negative? I am not. I'm sceptic or more likely realistic. You'll notice that when you grow up...

Dont worry, I learnt it the hard way. Every time you bring logic or realism to this forum that might remotely make sense how screwed up this game is, you are labelled as negative or a whiner.

God forbid if you are a sceptic ... The sky is falling comment will pop up :)
 
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Dont worry, I learnt it the hard way. Every time you bring logic or realism to this forum that might remotely make sense how screwed up this game is, you are labelled as negative or a whiner.

God forbid if you are a sceptic ... The sky is falling comment will pop up :)

Word! :wise:
 
Dont worry, I learnt it the hard way. Every time you bring logic or realism to this forum that might remotely make sense how screwed up this game is, you are labelled as negative or a whiner.

God forbid if you are a sceptic ... The sky is falling comment will pop up :)

Scepticism is good, as long as it's in moderation, other wise it starts crossing the boundaries and it starts to become cynicism... ;)

A wise man once said time heals all wounds, but if the wound is too deep, it's time to move on and forgive but never forget. :)

Or to put it plainly, if you can't see the bright side in this game anymore, it's best to move on and find something you do find joy and excitement in!! :yup: I kind of hope that every player here or in any game finds this!! :beerchug:
 
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