Discussion: Changes in CLD payments & ROI

[Teiwaz Storm]

I think u are wroung from 2 reasons:

1. Money came from buying CLD's ( depos made by players to obtain them ) were either consumed indirectly by MA ( also in form of decay/loss by players ) or withdrawed/consumed by previous owners. Larger investors likely withdraw while small 1-2 CLD owners likely spent that value ingame

2. Lower price of CLD means less depos needed by new owners to obtain them. As CLD's are changing ownership all the time. Last 2 years CLD's were always aviable to buy, there was no single day u couldn't get CLD at some price.

...so in current system CLD price is going naturally to 0,00 as long as incomes from them doing same. Lower the income = lower CLD price = easier to obtain them and consume their value either by MA or players.

At hipotethical end, if current ROI keeps CLD worth 1 ped wil be earning 0,0024 ped weekly. At that moment there will be really tiny amount of players left to sustain that. As MA operating cost is always positive (u cant run such service like EU without costs) that mean we sooner see MA out of market than CLD for 1 ped, but trend is clear and that process already started.

No, it's you who are wrong:

1. Money from buying CLDs went straight to MA (~6 million USD). Some of it is used for promotion of Planet Calypso. Small number of CLDs was set aside for prizes and event loot.

2. CLDs that are sold on secondary market (pvp trades) do not change anything from deposit point of view.
If I deposit money to buy CLD from you, that means that you don't need to deposit yourself if you wanna use that money ingame. Or you can withdraw that money. Either way it makes no difference for MA how much money changed hands and who deposited it.

Is that clear enough for you to understand that price is not making any difference from deposit point of view? or you need more detailed explanation?

As for price of CLD going naturally to 0.0... I can only , but time will say who was wrong and who was right with that one

 

[shoti]

No, it's you who are wrong:

1. Money from buying CLDs went straight to MA (~6 million USD). Some of it is used for promotion of Planet Calypso. Small number of CLDs was set aside for prizes and event loot.

Thats what I called "consumed by MA ", made it addvertising or castle in germany...whatever. To be more precise i was refering to money deposited to buy 2nd hand CLD's as we discusing about actual price of CLD's not initial 1k ped MA mark.

2. CLDs that are sold on secondary market (pvp trades) do not change anything from deposit point of view.
If I deposit money to buy CLD from you, that means that you don't need to deposit yourself if you wanna use that money ingame. Or you can withdraw that money. Either way it makes no difference for MA how much money changed hands and who deposited it.

oh,oh...wait, seriously ? Nothing ? How about CLD price itself ? If u need depo only 100 ped to buy my CLD i will get only 100 ped to circulate on my hunt. From MA point of wiev it's beter if u need depo 1400 ped to get my CLD tehn I can cycle 1400 ped on my hunt and let MA consume more out of that depo.

Is that clear enough for you to understand that price is not making any difference from deposit point of view? or you need more detailed explanation?

As for price of CLD going naturally to 0.0... I can only , but time will say who was wrong and who was right with that one

Looks like you don't see few market mechanisms wchich are not obvious on 1st look, but thats not yourt faul realy

As for what time show i can only agree...u think EU is eternal ? Even earth itself will not survive so except some sudden cataclysm CLD's before EU "end" will be almost worthless ( as investors care about their money ). Thats not only entropy in thermodynamics will have impact on that.

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

[...]

oh,oh...wait, seriously ? Nothing ? How about CLD price itself ? If u need depo only 100 ped to buy my CLD i will get only 100 ped to circulate on my hunt. From MA point of wiev it's beter if u need depo 1400 ped to get my CLD tehn I can cycle 1400 ped on my hunt and let MA consume more out of that depo.

[...]

This is where you seem to make logic mistake.
Let me try to explain it more plainly to you.

1. If I deposit 100 PED and buy CLD off you, then you have 100 PED to withdraw or spend in game.
a) If you withdraw, then there is no difference to MA how big amount it is.
b) If you kill puny mobs then you can cycle that amount for extended time without any need of further depositing.
c) If you want to do something mid-high level then that 100 PED will not be enough to hunt at all and you will need to deposit more.

2. If I deposit 1400 PED and buy CLD off you, then you have 1400 PED to withdraw or spend in game.
a) If you withdraw, then there is no difference to MA how big amount it is.
b) If you kill puny mobs then you can cycle that amount for much longer time than you would 100 PED without any need of further depositing.
c) If you want to do something mid-high level then that 1400 PED will last you some (not that long) time without need to deposit to continue.
d) If you decide to keep 100 PED to kill punies and withdraw 1300 PED then there is no difference at all

Now lets analyze:

1a and 2a - no difference at all how big is the amount - no influence of CLD price on how many deposits MA gets.

1b and 2b - whether you will get 100 PED to hunt and will need to deposit 1300 PED In future, or whether you have 1400 PED and don't need deposit for much longer time - somebody had to deposit that 1400 PED.
If it was Me depositing 100 and you 1300 or was it just me 1400 PED - that does not matter to MA - no influence of CLD price on how many deposits MA gets.

1c and 2c - whether I deposit 100 and you deposit 1300 or whether I deposit whole 1400 PED - that does not matter to MA - no influence of CLD price on how many deposits MA gets.

2d - I hope you got it by now - that does not matter to MA - no influence of CLD price on how many deposits MA gets.


Now, I tried to explain it to you that CLD price is not an issue for MA from deposit point of view.
If you still fail to understand it, please seek help somewhere else as I have no time for you anymore.

 

[Doer]

Tei, you're overlooking the fact that a decline in CLD price effectively evaporates PED value that MA would at some point have to pay to recover dividends. There's an inherent conflict of interest when a company can manipulate its share price because it could, for example, crash the market, buy back shares at a fraction of the original price, and have effectively got its clients to pay it for nothing.

That's why the SEC exists etc.

If the deeds always remain in player hands your analysis is correct, but I do think CLD price is seen by many as a "canary in the coal mine" -- regardless of whether that's a good indicator or not.

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

Tei, you're overlooking the fact that a decline in CLD price effectively evaporates PED value that MA would at some point have to pay to recover dividends. There's an inherent conflict of interest when a company can manipulate its share price because it could, for example, crash the market, buy back shares at a fraction of the original price, and have effectively got its clients to pay it for nothing.

That's why the SEC exists etc.

If the deeds always remain in player hands your analysis is correct, but I do think CLD price is seen by many as a "canary in the coal mine" -- regardless of whether that's a good indicator or not.

Yes you are right that there is that another issue, but my replies to Shoti was about deposits.

He simply stated that

CLD dont hold value itself, but lower price ( caused by lower CLD incomes ) mean less depos to buy them = less hunts, less mines, less crafts = less tax.

and I was directing that fallacy and therefore I said that from deposit point of view

[...]price is not making any difference from deposit point of view[...]

[...]no influence of CLD price on how many deposits MA gets[...]

hope that clears my intentions

 

[billairboy]

Tei, you're overlooking the fact that a decline in CLD price effectively evaporates PED value that MA would at some point have to pay to recover dividends. There's an inherent conflict of interest when a company can manipulate its share price because it could, for example, crash the market, buy back shares at a fraction of the original price, and have effectively got its clients to pay it for nothing.

That's why the SEC exists etc.

If the deeds always remain in player hands your analysis is correct, but I do think CLD price is seen by many as a "canary in the coal mine" -- regardless of whether that's a good indicator or not.

So.... you mean MA choose to do bad business, loose players and get lower profit just to drive down the price of CLD and later buy them back? It think they prefer too increase the number of players and earn money that way instead.

 

[Futurama]

Tei, you're overlooking the fact that a decline in CLD price effectively evaporates PED value that MA would at some point have to pay to recover dividends. There's an inherent conflict of interest when a company can manipulate its share price because it could, for example, crash the market, buy back shares at a fraction of the original price, and have effectively got its clients to pay it for nothing.

That's why the SEC exists etc.

If the deeds always remain in player hands your analysis is correct, but I do think CLD price is seen by many as a "canary in the coal mine" -- regardless of whether that's a good indicator or not.

Ever heard of the terms "Penny stocks" and "Pump&dump"?


As for the discussion - I would agree more with what Tei was saying, that the CLD price doesn't influence the deposits. Actually I would join the camp saying that high CLD price is actually bad for MA. Not just because they cannot buy them back at prices like 1400 or so (*thin foil had mode*), but more just because CLDs tie up a lot of peds that people aren't cycling in the economy. So with lower CLD prices a lot less peds are tied up sitting in storage, because lets be honest - Entropia is a niche market, number of players and thus amount of USD or any other currency deposit is not unlimited. Entropia is not a game that could in a few years lets say double the amount of deposits, its just impossible.

 

[HardWrath]

I want to know why people believe that MA is buying back CLD.

 

[Stormdancer]

It's summer time

 

[Unvinsible]

I think that many bigger investors are picking up the clds they can under 1200 ped, so wouldn't be suprised that once the panickers and does not happy with the revenue has sold their deeds, we could see a slow increase in price again. I am talking many months here, and not days.

Disclaimer : I already sold half my cld, think I will keep rest.

 

[Doer]

So.... you mean MA choose to do bad business, loose players and get lower profit just to drive down the price of CLD and later buy them back? It think they prefer too increase the number of players and earn money that way instead.

Did i say that's their intent? Anywhere? Three replies in a row to my post that didn't really understand that i was 1 agreeing with tai and 2 giving a hypothetical case when it woulin't hold.

The chronic case of failed reading comprehension on PCF has become terminal lately.

 

[billairboy]

Did i say that's their intent? Anywhere? Three replies in a row to my post that didn't really understand that i was 1 agreeing with tai and 2 giving a hypothetical case when it woulin't hold.

The chronic case of failed reading comprehension on PCF has become terminal lately.

Well it sounded like you did and it did not sound like you agreed with him when you say "you are overlooking".... maybe it's not the readers that are at fault.

 

[Farmer Smurf]

The chronic case of failed reading comprehension on PCF has become terminal lately.

what about chronic?

 

[Futurama]

I want to know why people believe that MA is buying back CLD.

Because the CLDs are built on a fragile assumption that a very low amount of the payouts will be withdrawn from the game. If the the withdraws increase above a certain point the whole system becomes unsustainable and will collapse.

 

[Korin Dante MDe]

Lower CLD price = Lower Weekly Payout = Lower PED Cycled = Lower MA profit.... = Lower Deposits.... For MA to revive economy, they need to buyback CLD and can bid on CLD's at auction for as low as 1150 PED but a official statement needs to be released that they CLD's bought-back will not be released into player base.

 

[ermik]

Lower CLD price = Lower Weekly Payout

 

[billairboy]

Lower CLD price = Lower Weekly Payout = Lower PED Cycled = Lower MA profit.... = Lower Deposits.... For MA to revive economy, they need to buyback CLD and can bid on CLD's at auction for as low as 1150 PED but a official statement needs to be released that they CLD's bought-back will not be released into player base.

ehm eh mm what
Lets see....
Lower Deposits= Lower PED Cycled = Lower Weekly Payout = Lower CLD price

Fixed it for you, we can leave the MA profit out, because they don't do any

 

[shoti]

Lower CLD price = Lower Weekly Payout = Lower PED Cycled = Lower MA profit.... = Lower Deposits.... For MA to revive economy, they need to buyback CLD and can bid on CLD's at auction for as low as 1150 PED but a official statement needs to be released that they CLD's bought-back will not be released into player base.

ehm eh mm what
Lets see....
Lower Deposits= Lower PED Cycled = Lower Weekly Payout = Lower CLD price

Fixed it for you, we can leave the MA profit out, because they don't do any

naaahhh...it goes like this :

Lower CLD price = Lower Deposits = Lower PED Cycled = Lower Weekly Payout = Lower MA profit....


think bit about it. Lower CLD price is realy causing lower deposits now (i know its hard to see that instantly ), no mistake here.

 

[HardWrath]

naaahhh...it goes like this :

Lower CLD price = Lower Deposits = Lower PED Cycled = Lower Weekly Payout = Lower MA profit....


think bit about it. Lower CLD price is realy causing lower deposits now (i know its hard to see that instantly ), no mistake here.

Shoti is right. If I wanted to sell a CLD instead of deposit in order to go hunt or whatever and it sells for 1100 instead of 1500 that's less PED available for me to use for game play.

The way for MA to revive the economy is to advertise and also to put more items of value in the loot table for a wide range of mobs. Seeing as how a silly UFO (L) easily sells for 1500 to 3500, there certainly is a lot of room for looted novelty items. It doesn't just have to be guns and armor that we loot.

Items of value in the loot table motivate us to grind which directly provides profit for MA and also drives CLD revenue, which then increases CLD prices.

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

naaahhh...it goes like this :

Lower CLD price = Lower Deposits = Lower PED Cycled = Lower Weekly Payout = Lower MA profit....


think bit about it. Lower CLD price is realy causing lower deposits now (i know its hard to see that instantly ), no mistake here.

Are you blind, stubborn or just dumb to stick to that fallacy??

Price of CLDs do not influence deposits at all!

Here you have it explained:

This is where you seem to make logic mistake.
Let me try to explain it more plainly to you.

1. If I deposit 100 PED and buy CLD off you, then you have 100 PED to withdraw or spend in game.
a) If you withdraw, then there is no difference to MA how big amount it is.
b) If you kill puny mobs then you can cycle that amount for extended time without any need of further depositing.
c) If you want to do something mid-high level then that 100 PED will not be enough to hunt at all and you will need to deposit more.

2. If I deposit 1400 PED and buy CLD off you, then you have 1400 PED to withdraw or spend in game.
a) If you withdraw, then there is no difference to MA how big amount it is.
b) If you kill puny mobs then you can cycle that amount for much longer time than you would 100 PED without any need of further depositing.
c) If you want to do something mid-high level then that 1400 PED will last you some (not that long) time without need to deposit to continue.
d) If you decide to keep 100 PED to kill punies and withdraw 1300 PED then there is no difference at all

Now lets analyze:

1a and 2a - no difference at all how big is the amount - no influence of CLD price on how many deposits MA gets.

1b and 2b - whether you will get 100 PED to hunt and will need to deposit 1300 PED In future, or whether you have 1400 PED and don't need deposit for much longer time - somebody had to deposit that 1400 PED.
If it was Me depositing 100 and you 1300 or was it just me 1400 PED - that does not matter to MA - no influence of CLD price on how many deposits MA gets.

1c and 2c - whether I deposit 100 and you deposit 1300 or whether I deposit whole 1400 PED - that does not matter to MA - no influence of CLD price on how many deposits MA gets.

2d - I hope you got it by now - that does not matter to MA - no influence of CLD price on how many deposits MA gets.


Now, I tried to explain it to you that CLD price is not an issue for MA from deposit point of view.
If you still fail to understand it, please seek help somewhere else as I have no time for you anymore.

 

[Konve]

Why not? Nothing wrong even in doing it silently, as long as they wouldn't create peds for that out of thin air (which is unlikely, since withdrawals of those "fictitious" peds would be pretty real).

Every time you get a loot, PED are created from thin air. MA just has to make sure PED deposited > PED withdrawn.

 

[HardWrath]

Every time you get a loot, PED are created from thin air. MA just has to make sure PED deposited > PED withdrawn.

I'm pretty certain that the total available PED available for us all to loot directly correlates to stackable TT consumption plus a few other things. Auction fees used to get cycled back into loot and they likely still do.

Perhaps it's possible for someone to get a mega ATH and the "loot pool" runs a deficit until it gets caught back up but it's impossible to know for sure.

 

[Audrey Cheerful]

2.597

Woohoo, that's a big improvement over the previous 2.575 PEDs.

Oh, well.

 

[Doer]

Woohoo, that's a big improvement over the previous 2.575 PEDs.

Oh, well.

At least up is better than down...

 

[Korin Dante MDe]

Woohoo, that's a big improvement over the previous 2.575 PEDs.

Oh, well.

Not much improvement. I was expecting 3.25-3.5 this week...

 

[shoti]

I have hipothesis about it:

When number af users loged to PCF drop under 200 ppl CLD income drop to 2 peds.

 

[Korin Dante MDe]

CLD Payouts are not going to improve till there is some major event on Calypso for few weeks is scheduled and launched....

Someone has news about this and our CLD Payouts increases?

 

[RobBuona]

Wondering where my payout is.

 

[Serica]

Wondering where my payout is.

From what I can see, Friday was a Swedish public holiday. Perhaps they're still finalising it and payment will be delayed by 24hrs as has happened a couple of times before?

 

[El Diablo]

Hope so... C'mon MA.