Do This Make Good Business Sense?

[Alexis Starfire]

This is an open post having to do with the bug problems stated in this thread

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27959

I have had k's of ammo vanish on me..I let it slide..

On the night of 8 June 2006, I had a Potent Focus Chip I have had for a month, suddenly vanish from my inventory/quickbar after using it and switching to another chip. I assume due to some bug, I don't know the details because it was so sudden. This is not an inexpensive chip.

I relogged and did all the stuff you usually do when things seem to go missing in EU (with astonding regularity..but mostly came back with a relog) I also checked the "My Section->My Items" after logging into the main site. It (the chip) was no where to be found. If I had 'dropped' it, it would have shown up as 'being in the world'

I filed a support case and of course, MA looks like they are not going to do a bloody thing about it. I have stated my deposit record to them to show I don't need to lie about having this chip.

I assume they expect me to deposit a heap of money and buy one back..They are WRONG..Why should I give them MORE money when I can't be secure that things won't just disappear?

At the moment, I'm to scared to even login for fear of something even more expensive suddenly disappearing. Like the 1000 ped Wormhole Chip I have.

So my options are to throw away all the money I put into EU, all the time, skills and playing..or deposit again and hope my expensive items don't 'disappear' again.

To the topic of this post..

Does it make good business sense for MA to sacrifice all my future deposits and those which I would most likely take with me once some of my friends hear of thier decision. All for a game item that COSTS THEM nothing to replace due to thier shoddy programming in the latest VU.
AND
How can I be assured if I spend more money in EU that expensive items won't disappear again?

I'm not talking about Shadow Armour or a mod fap (which I doubt heavilly I will ever deposit for now, without some kind of sense of security its not going to 'disappear'). I talking about a legitimate item I possessed.

The fan boys can -rep this and flame this all you want or lock it down..Just remember it when it happens to you..

Cheers

 

[Mynx]

Did they actually tell you that they won't replace it? The reason I'm asking is that I lost a 5B plate while using the Repair Terminal (I posted about it here ) and I have not heard back from them since my last reply. They have replaced missing items for me before and it was normally within 24 hours. I'm getting worried about the delay.

 

[Alexis Starfire]

Did they actually tell you that they won't replace it? The reason I'm asking is that I lost a 5B plate while using the Repair Terminal (I posted about it here ) and I have not heard back from them since my last reply. They have replaced missing items for me before and it was normally within 24 hours. I'm getting worried about the delay.

Case 81040 History

08 Jun 2006 Alexis Starfire: (I replaced my real name)
Is this how you plan to get more money out of us? I have had ammo show up missing..no big deal..But tonight I find my potent focus chip missing! And thats 340Ped worth of chip I want back.. I getting SICK of depositing money into an endless hole and NOW expensive items end up missing??

I also know I'm not the only one with this problem. Is this how you get more deposits? If you look at my record you will see I am a big one. NOW MORE till I get my chip back.. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!

Cheers

-----------
08 Jun 2006 MindArk Support:
Hello, according to our logs you do not own any potent focus chip.
Regards,
Entropia Support

----------

 

[Lighterthief]

i am/was a fanboy i guess, but u get a +rep from me

this laid back approach from ma is really getting to me atm, whether its a company policy or whether the support just dont care i am not sure

a friend lost a mining deed in front of me today, hit the claim and 10 sec later no deed, it hadnt been mined, so a relog and such and nope, not there, vanished

but we have missing ammo, missing deeds, missing mindforce chips etc

whats next, missing spacestation maybe? or missing modfaps? immk2 maybe?

i wonder if the uber that looses thier equip will get the same brush off

uber: hi, i wanna report a bug, my modfap has vanished
support: Hello, according to our logs you do not own any mod fap


as we are told repetadly its a real cash economy, so its real real frustrating when ur real cash disapears
and even more frustrating if we are told by support that it never happened.. really

if it wasnt MA and was a player that had removed items then we would be angry and accusing them of scamming etc, but when MA's code makes stuff disappear then its all ok and dandy

srry but thats just not cricket

 

[Falcon4]

I had about 600 "bottles" of sweat come up missing... out of nowhere... I think it was in storage when it disappeared. Not in "my items", not anywhere. There really needs to be some kind of error-catching to prevent that kind of crap from happening...

Then again, if it costs the PLAYER money, it'll never get fixed. If it costs THEM money (e.g. the spider thing), they jump right on it!

Well, it's indirectly costing them money - by costing them players. People aren't gonna dump money into something they don't know is secure... and I'm the same way. How do I know my stuff's not just gonna mysteriously disappear? =\

 

[AlphaGeek]

Oh for f**Ks sake!

MINDARK, WAKE UP, YOU JUGHEADS! YOU HAVE A SERIOUS PROBLEM BECAUSE YOU'RE MISPLACING ITEMS OF VALUE TO YOUR CUSTOMERS, AND EITHER YOUR SYSTEM THAT TRACKS THE PROERTY IS GIVING ERRONEOUS DATA TO YOUR SUPPORT STAFF, OR YOUR SUPPORT STAFF IS INSUFFICIENTLY TRAINED TO RESOLVE THESE ISSUES. DO WE NEED TO MAKE TELEPHONE CALLS TO CORNELIA SUNDSTROM ON THIS TO EXPRESS OUR DISPLEASURE?

Marco, if you're reading this you really need to let the developers and the business team know that if this continues, youre going to have a serious trust issue with your paying customers. MindArk keeps saying this is a real economy. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it, and neither are a growing number of dissatisfied customers. In a real economy. losing track of a customers investment in the way that Mindark is doing would be criminal! Ask any bank employee what would happen to them if they lost a significant amount of money?

AG, who has seen one too many items purchased at the same time as others not show up.

 

[Jimmy B]

Case 81040 History

08 Jun 2006 Alexis Starfire: (I replaced my real name)
Is this how you plan to get more money out of us? I have had ammo show up missing..no big deal..But tonight I find my potent focus chip missing! And thats 340Ped worth of chip I want back.. I getting SICK of depositing money into an endless hole and NOW expensive items end up missing??

I also know I'm not the only one with this problem. Is this how you get more deposits? If you look at my record you will see I am a big one. NOW MORE till I get my chip back.. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!

Cheers

OK, don't get me wrong here. I sympathise with you if you've lost a chip - it shouldn't happen, and when it does, it should be rectified.

But, what were you trying to achieve with your support case? If your intention was to get back your chip its just too confrontational.

You start by basically asserting that MA have intentionally taken away your chip in order to get more money from you. This isn't the case it is a bug, nothing more, nothing less. Besides, by using your chip you are giving MA money, why would they want to take it away from you??

You then state you are sick of depositting money into an endless hole. This just reads like you are accusing EU of being a rip off. And your comment strikes me as a little odd given your chosen profession and the item you lost!

Finally you basically demand for the return of the chip else you won't deposit again. Again unnecessarily provocative.


I'm not saying you shouldn't be annoyed at what happened. But if you'd been more polite and less aggressive in your support case, the person reading it may have been more inclined to investigate your case and try to help you. Remember the people reading these things are not some big corporate "THEM" trying to screw you over. They are real people who work for MA, may not get paid that much, and sit reading complaints from people all day long. You might have got a better response and achieved your aim of getting your chip back if you had presented a more positive friendly attitude. Sometimes saying what you want to say is not the best way to get what you want, even when you believe you are in the 'right' and the person you are talking to is in the 'wrong'

I've only sent two support cases so far. The first one was a bit of a pointless question that I could have found the answer to here. I got a short, curt answer back in the end.

The second one I was reporting some bugs with a past VU. I listed the bugs but also gave some feedback, some of it quite positive, of what I thought of the rest of the VU. I got a response pretty quickly, thanking me for the feedback and reporting on what had been done or what would be done about each of the bugs. This was what I wanted to get back. Had I just reeled off the bugs, demanded to know what was going to be done about it and then made some threat about what I'd do or not do if the bugs weren't fixed tomorrow...I doubt I'd have got back a particularly useful response.

 

[Zoe]

Whilst I agree with Jimmy B that Alexis Starfire could have presented his case to MA alittle better , at the same time lets not forget that support case personal should be trained to look into a customers complaint seriously regardless of the way the customer chose to communicate their frustration with their purchase. Goodness knows, working in retail in the past, I am use to irrate customers.. I would have been sacked on the spot if I had simply ignored a customer or given such a curt response such as this one ,without actually taking the time to investigate or attempt to placate the customer to a level in which a clearer discussion of the problem could continue..

Whilst I have never had an item of my own disappear, I feel Alexis's frustration in this matter and the sting of the response he received. This could easily have happened to me or any one of us.

It is obvoius in the current VU there are serious bugs . There has always been bugs but most we accepted and lose a few peds on. However when items and ammo and other purchased goods simply disappear that is TOO much to swallow.

Reading this post I have decided to come clean and write into support to let them know how askew their avatar item database currently is by reporting to them they actually handed me 100 peds worth of ammo for free ( in two 50 ped lots when i relogged twice on the day of the new VU) .. LOL maybe that will get a better response to this problem seeing as this time THEY are the ones loosing money !

Simply to sum up, does this make good business sense ? no
I love PE but Mindark are becoming more and more transparent with each VU.
zoe

 

[Huskie]

Aw, come on... Why bother MA with such a small issue? Can't you see they're already too busy planning the next big publicity stunt?

























(This was an ironic post)

 

[ZippO]

hmmm i haven't been able to play lately, but these are some of the worst bugs i have heard of in a very long time... If PE (EU) is to going to succeed at all, MA must realise this kind of stuff must be prevented, or at least dealt with in fast and proffesional manner : (

 

[Falcon4]

Anyone besides me notice the massive memory leak in PE? Has that been around since the beginning or... heaven forbid it be another VU-related bug?

 

[Fade]

Well, in case you folks have not read the EULA, any item your avatar has, really belongs to MA. If they want to make their stuff disappear, that is their right.


ok seriously...give it some time. yes the bugs suck...but bugs happen. Is MA not paying enough for good coders? Are they trying to do too much with too little infrastructure?... we dont' know. Are they working on it?.. I am sure they are....and that may account for why they have not responded to you yet. They may be working overtime to fix the issue...then they can go clean the mess it caused. They also have to be able to spend some time looking at your case....because sadly, there may be some that make false claims...especially when there is a known bug.

They have been working with me on the TTed gun issue...(though atm, I am not sure what the gun was that I might have tted)...but the point is..they will get with you eventually.

Could they improve communication about the bugs...probably... But I bet the guy in charge of marketing has more clout than the guy in charge of support.

MA is not going to stick it to you in this way. They will get it back to you, I am sure....and I am no fanboy ... I got plenty of gripes...but those have to do with the general strategy and marketing of the business.

I can pretty much guarantee you that MA is not stealing from avatars to save money....it is much easier for them to just lower the loot level.

Just give it some time.

 

[Lykke]

I took my liberty to link this to my bug-thread

 

[Ilga Beck]

OK, don't get me wrong here. I sympathise with you if you've lost a chip - it shouldn't happen, and when it does, it should be rectified.

But, what were you trying to achieve with your support case? If your intention was to get back your chip its just too confrontational.

You start by basically asserting that MA have intentionally taken away your chip in order to get more money from you. This isn't the case it is a bug, nothing more, nothing less. Besides, by using your chip you are giving MA money, why would they want to take it away from you??

You then state you are sick of depositting money into an endless hole. This just reads like you are accusing EU of being a rip off. And your comment strikes me as a little odd given your chosen profession and the item you lost!

Finally you basically demand for the return of the chip else you won't deposit again. Again unnecessarily provocative.


I'm not saying you shouldn't be annoyed at what happened. But if you'd been more polite and less aggressive in your support case, the person reading it may have been more inclined to investigate your case and try to help you. Remember the people reading these things are not some big corporate "THEM" trying to screw you over. They are real people who work for MA, may not get paid that much, and sit reading complaints from people all day long. You might have got a better response and achieved your aim of getting your chip back if you had presented a more positive friendly attitude. Sometimes saying what you want to say is not the best way to get what you want, even when you believe you are in the 'right' and the person you are talking to is in the 'wrong'

I've only sent two support cases so far. The first one was a bit of a pointless question that I could have found the answer to here. I got a short, curt answer back in the end.

The second one I was reporting some bugs with a past VU. I listed the bugs but also gave some feedback, some of it quite positive, of what I thought of the rest of the VU. I got a response pretty quickly, thanking me for the feedback and reporting on what had been done or what would be done about each of the bugs. This was what I wanted to get back. Had I just reeled off the bugs, demanded to know what was going to be done about it and then made some threat about what I'd do or not do if the bugs weren't fixed tomorrow...I doubt I'd have got back a particularly useful response.

How to make friends and influence people. This is something that is rarely taught and seldom learnt (except perhaps with age). I symathise with you over the loss of your gear and understand your anger but I agree completely with Jimmy B. Why don't you try writing back to support, but this time with a more positive approach (maybe even include an appology for your prior communication if you're up to it (?))?

It certainly looks like MA stuffed up and should definately rectify this but you're still dealing with a human being. And that human being didn't take your gear! Get the best out of that person and get them on your side, don't set out to make an enemy. Don't take this as personal criticism. Your reaction to this was completely understandable and most people would react in a similar manner. However I guarantee that, with a little practice, a more positive approach in these situations will always yield a better result

 

[Nevarna]

+rep from me also

but MA plans big publicity stunts to attract more players im guessing..

and i like to imagine myself as if i was tryin to find a good mmorpg to play
i see pe and it sounds pretty cool but then you hear about the amount of people who deposit money into this game and have their items dissapear ....

world of warcraft anyone??

although i do love pe and id never swap ( although i do play it )

 

[sob]

n. You must report errors and bugs to MindArk whenever you discover them. Neglecting to report errors or bugs, or using bugs or 'exploits' for own benefits may result in a termination of your Avatar account, including its virtual items, funds, and abilities.

remember to report any error or bug, no matter what. if not you might loose your account

what if you loose 100 light cells without reporting it, and the next day your account is gone?

btw: when you read this post you agree to ignore its content. this post has nothing to do with MA or EU, its just a post with random letters typed by a monkey.

12. Headings
Headings used in this Agreement are provided for convenience only and shall not be used to construe meaning or intent.

 

[Northman]

Maby you have to much stuff in storage. Happend to me that things just dissapeard and come back when i sold off some stuff

And please : if you can't stand the bugs, give EU a rest and go bowling etc.

 

[Lykke]

And please : if you can't stand the bugs, give EU a rest and go bowling etc.

I may be a very optimistic person .. maybe TOO optimistic - but somehow I am sure those "bugs" can be fixed easily - and I also am sure, that new "features" or whatever can be removed somehow! Or at least - I WILL fight for that to be happening because otherwise I am afraid there will be no more EU for me and lot's of other addicted, EU-loving players, in near future!

You can't just turn away and then think it all dissapeared while you were away! It might even be worse when you come back!

 

[Sharyn]

...if you can't stand the bugs, give EU a rest and go bowling etc.

And ... Striiiiiiikeeeeeee

*starts polishing the bowling ball*

 

[Sonya Heart]

-----------
08 Jun 2006 MindArk Support:
Hello, according to our logs you do not own any potent focus chip.
Regards,
Entropia Support

----------

That looks all too familiar. Marco this is the sort of support im talking about. Of course the logs show he doesnt own one its MISSING!.

It strikes me that support to not really investigate anything.

I hope you get somewhere with it.

 

[aridash]

A couple of people from my soc have quit over a similar scenario. it wasnt even anything as expensive as a potent focus chip, just an amp. when i say quit i mean they haven't threatened, they've come to arrangments about their avatars and gone. they said they wouldnt pay for a service that didnt respect their custom.

so its not speculation, this sort of thing is already driving people away.

EDIT: Sonya raises an important point - do they really check the logs properly? i know searching logs is a pain in the arse and usually avoided or the briefest search conducted. Do they even log everything? thats going to be a awful lot of data to search through for small items.

 

[Fade]

Listen... if you have been in EF for a while, you know that I am one of the absolute biggest whiners against MA.

But to quit over a bug like this does not make sense. At least give MA a chance to make it right.

Yes, there are too many bugs....yes, support can be slow, .... yes, 1st tier support can sometimes be clueless....typical at a software company.

But YES, if you politely continue to work with them, this will get sorted out.

There are a dozen better reasone to quit EU. Don't make this bigger than it needs to be.

This is not the sort of bug that MA will ignore. They are probably very busy trying to correct it right now.

 

[Northman]

Jepp, agree on that Fade. Think peeps putting to much time and money in this "game". Addiction added with that combination is not healthy

Would you play on a casino if there was problems with missing cards or the fruitmachine keeps your coins ? Don't think so. Only thing that bothers me is that MA not closing down the servers and fix it like the casino would do.

 

[Falcon4]

Hey. I went to a laundromat where the machines are like gambling machines. Sometimes you'll actually get it to turn on and run properly after you put in the money. Otherwise, you're S.O.L., and it's not like there's even anyone there to even DREAM of refunding you!

But I agree... they really should do something about this, or at least TELL people something's being done!!

 

[Alexis Starfire]

You start by basically asserting that MA have intentionally taken away your chip in order to get more money from you. This isn't the case it is a bug, nothing more, nothing less. Besides, by using your chip you are giving MA money, why would they want to take it away from you??

Because they are saying I never had one..that is STEALING wither it was directly by MA or a bug that MA was responable for., and the only way I will get another one is to BUY ANOTHER ONE. I think that pretty much qualifys my statement..

You then state you are sick of depositting money into an endless hole. This just reads like you are accusing EU of being a rip off. And your comment strikes me as a little odd given your chosen profession and the item you lost!

It didn't used to be that way, I USED TO get at least a 30-40% return on my money so I could continue playing without having to constantly sink $$ into the game, even with such a crappy return I was having fun and considered it value for money.

Over the last few weeks since about 8.2 or so that has dropped to 0% to 10-15% return.. I consider that a pit! The only way you get to continue to play longer that the cost of the peds is to sink more into it...

I don't anything odd...If you saw my deposit record you would see I am VERY capable of buying a potent focus chip and what else would a Mindforcer do??. I PAID REAL MONEY for it and now its gone due to MA's responsibilty and it doesn't look like I'll get it back..you don't call that a 'ripoff', I and alot of others sure as hel would..

Case in Point, and eaxctly the same:
Walk into a shop and buy an Ipod, and have a saleman come out to your car after and take it back saying "Sorry, you have to pay for this again!" and see if YOU don't go ballistic , or are you going to be 'non-confontational' about it, if so your in a VERY small minority..

But I guess when its a virtual item that you PAID REAL MONEY for the law dosen't apply to theivery (Again in ANY form, bug or direct)

Aw, come on... Why bother MA with such a small issue? Can't you see they're already too busy planning the next big publicity stunt?

I will give this a bit more time, but if MA thinks they can just wash this, I have been in computer gaming for over 30 year since its conception. You don't go that long in it without making some contacts.

You want MA's next biggest publicity stunt?, a promise not a threat..should MA just wash all the money I have put in and not do whats right by replacing items there shoddy code takes that are worth REAL MONEY. I can also just take all the posts from a few threads here and send it to a editorial friend of mine at GameSpot. I'm sure he and his colleages would be most interested in this story..I and my mates can always find someplace else to spend our money on the internet where it will be appreciated..

hmmm i haven't been able to play lately, but these are some of the worst bugs i have heard of in a very long time... If PE (EU) is to going to succeed at all, MA must realise this kind of stuff must be prevented, or at least dealt with in fast and proffesional manner : (

Damn..You HAVE been away awhile..

It certainly looks like MA stuffed up and should definately rectify this but you're still dealing with a human being. And that human being didn't take your gear!

Yes, and the Telecom company always tells you 'The Computer made a mistake'

The way I look at it A HUMAN DID take my gear, a computer is a dumb machine, it only does what a HUMAN programmed it do...

Sorry, I'm not going to kiss MA's arse to get back something I gave them good money for...They keep spouting REAL CASH ECONOMY, well they should be treating it like one..People that do this in a REAL CASH ECONOMY in RL, go to jail...

Oh sorry, I forgot according to the MA EULA they are above the law with our money..

Cheers

 

[Tigerman]

First off, taking an abusive tone against support wont help you get anything achieved. That might actually be a direct reason for someone to just ignore you to begin with. Of course MA SHOULDNT do that, but they might.. Just as the clerk in the tech store, or the barkeeper for that matter.

What Im wondering tho is wether or not MA actually check the logs, cause all transactions ARE logged according to MA or they just check the inventory listing like we can do ourselves... It can seem so at times.
I know that stuff has a history of disappearing and I also know that this has been mostly related to having too much items in inventory and/or storage.
Having too much items will make them not show up in the inventory listing on the website as well as make them invisible ingame. This has happened to me recently with atleast 2 ESIs (who knows if its even more out there) that suddenly came back to me when I sold off some junk I had stored away. Also happened with other items from time to time.

 

[Alexis Starfire]

First off, taking an abusive tone against support wont help you get anything achieved. That might actually be a direct reason for someone to just ignore you to begin with. Of course MA SHOULDNT do that, but they might.. Just as the clerk in the tech store, or the barkeeper for that matter.

Well, according to the emails I have gotten from support, they have already decided. My first lot of emails was very civil (Please/Thank Yo etc)

Then...
-----------
08 Jun 2006 MindArk Support:
Hello, according to our logs you do not own any potent focus chip.
Regards,
Entropia Support
----------
This was sent to both the 'nice' support request and the ranting support..

Which tells me they did nothing and instantly insinuated I'm try to rip THEM off??

If I thought for one second that they were going to do the right thing I would'nt be ranting..

I don't have many items so, unfortuatly the 'to many items' isnt the case..these disappering chips have happened before but always came back with a relog..I reported it and of course...and the normal form mail "We have reported thos to technical" .. well didn't work this time

So I guess I should just let them of the hook? quit, 'cash out' and get what I can from my skills and stuff that HASEN'T disappered ...YET! DREAM ON!!

Cheers

 

[Falcon4]

WELL DUH you don't own a chip! The game fucking stole it! Ugh, that even pisses ME off... they don't even WANT to help. >.<

Why? WHY? Are they really that starved for money?

edit:
Hmm, I should elaborate a bit more now that I read the long reply.

Basically MA is selling you a service. When you deposit money, it's still real money, simply unused money in their "account". When you use this in-game money to buy a virtual item, it's not a real item you're buying, but it is a real SERVICE you're buying. Like upgrading your ISP level. If you were to have paid for a month of service and they give you the lower service at the same price, damn right they're gonna get their asses in hot legal water - no matter WHAT excuse. If they flub something up and refuse to pay you back for it or right the wrong, they're denying you the service you paid for. Again, virtual item or otherwise, they can't just "NOT" give it, or a refund, back to you.

Really, MA should do a better job in their support department. Obviously they're paying these people - what little people they have - the minimum amount they'd possibly work for. I can tell right now that they don't like their job and aren't paid enough. It really feels like MA is struggling to stay alive here. Maybe not so much "to stay alive", but it's definately running like a rusty, creaky old machine. They have a really excellent concept in this game, but they somehow didn't get a great start, so they're forced to work with a falling-apart game engine, overloaded servers, and support "specialists" that just plain flat-out don't give a shit. Either that or they do, but the company isn't allowing them to help anyone get money BACK OUT of the company.

Hell, for all I know MA may have stolen your chip themselves. They may just be running around doing "asset collection" as a loophole in their EULA to try recovering their downspiraling finances. If the game's not even marginally enjoyable for a newbie, which it certainly wasn't for me, they're not gaining new users that stick, their marketing isn't working (as proven by New Oxford being a ghost town), and all hell is breaking loose in the company as we speak.

That's just the way it feels to me. We're walking on a broken, loose bridge here, and if we keep rocking back and forth on it saying "WHY DON'T YOU FIX THIS THING!?!?!?!?!", it's surely going to break... =\

 

[Tigerman]

WELL DUH you don't own a chip! The game fucking stole it! Ugh, that even pisses ME off... they don't even WANT to help. >.<

Why? WHY? Are they really that starved for money?

Support are monkeys, just like the ISP support lines.. Follow a 10-step form of crap to do and if that dont reveal an error, everything is the users fault...

At least a lot of the support guys seems to be like that..

 

[Falcon4]

Edited my post... guess I shoulda just posted a reply.