Do you influence your finding or system has it fixed for you ?

strakkan

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Per Strakkan Kollebolle
Hey !
Question here is in the title. Is it your avatar with skills and gear that influence what you find when you are out mining or has MA and the system already decided what you will find ?

Im asking since last few weeks has shown that results for my avatar has little to do with gear / skills etc and feels predetermined in some sort of timed system. There will be no Redulite to find if MA has decided so. Thats my feeling.

Give me your thoughts and ideas !

Regards
Strakkan
 
If I am right, bigger finds tend to be found at bigger depths so requires finders to get there, for which you need skills to use them. Amps make finds bigger. I think game knowledge is important, to mine in the right places with the right gear. However, whether it is pre-determined to avatar or an element of luck being in the right place at the right time etc, I would also be interested to discover.
 
If I am right, bigger finds tend to be found at bigger depths so requires finders to get there, for which you need skills to use them. Amps make finds bigger. I think game knowledge is important, to mine in the right places with the right gear. However, whether it is pre-determined to avatar or an element of luck being in the right place at the right time etc, I would also be interested to discover.
I dont think claimsize has anything do do with depght. Mostly triggered by amp and use of probes ( total number). Depth has something to do with better MU on finds but only when system allows it do drop ? Again its my feeling
 
If you are looking for Redu,Pyrite and things like that waves influence your findings mostly so if wave started you will find it with amp or no amp, but before i had the feeling that resources composition in the area changed and HR also depending on the amp size lvl2 vs lvl5 vs d-class. But last few months it just finding when wave starts and start dropping.
 
I dont think claimsize has anything do do with depght. Mostly triggered by amp and use of probes ( total number). Depth has something to do with better MU on finds but only when system allows it do drop ? Again its my feeling

Indeed, amp, probes, and finder decay(though a very minor effect relative to others), affect base claim size. Anything else is just whatever randomness function MA uses to cause variation in claim size.

For the OP, mining skills only determine what gear you can use, which is primarily for depth and in some cases pre-amped finders. Depth does not increase claim size, only resource type. Basically, claim hit rate is 2D, not 3D where depth could affect hit rate. Instead, if you drop with a shallow finder and come back a few minutes later with a deep one, you are going to have a near zero hit rate with the deeper finder over time.

Range is trickier to test in terms of hit rate and if it affects claim size (range is negatively correlated with claim size when you look at indoor vs outdoor mining, but the two may not be comparable).

Overall, skills let you use different finders, amps, and excavators. There is no guarantee though that you will have better returns simply because of your skills though. The closest you can maybe get to that is if you use an adjusted or improved excavator, but that’s a very minor effect in net returns, especially if you already use a TT excavator, which is already one of the topmost efficient excavators in the game. Most of mining is related to real-life skill and experience rather than in-game skill.
 
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There used to be a theory that is you got both Serendipity and Perception as a skill next or close to each other, there was a big claim in the area and you should use the zone system to cover it with probes. As I say, was just a theory once but some people vouched for it.
 
I can only write opinions and interpret my data, I can't state facts. Those out of the way, my opinions are as follows:

Your skills are very impactful in the checkpoints designed by MA, but in the greater picture the biggest impact is with MA's balancing team.

1. In regards to quantity, I think mining skills behave like efficiency+looter profession from hunting. That is, the higher the level the less you're taxed by MA percentually, but given the higher and higher turnover (if you follow the logic of increasing finders and amps) then in absolute value your tax will remain significant.

So conceptually speaking, claim size is influenced the most by your skills. It is not 2005 anymore, it is not the case that your "great" deposits would be guaranteed to be globals, while my "great" deposits would be globals only as exception, but rather a compounded impact, over tens of thousand of claims (over which, obviously, skills themselves will slowly grow).

(short note for newer player, in 2005 the deposits had a different scale, "great" was, iirc, 40ish to 60ish)
(I picked the "great" size on purpose, it was by measuring this size that Strakkan and Zefram gave us the first public list of claim sizes back then)
(so back then mining deposits had a fixed number of pulls and it was your miner profession level which would decide how much material you'd take per pull)
(and yes a full chip - 10,xtt now, 0,99 tt then- of prospecting for example was 4k ish and extracting ones not too shabby either)

2. in regards to quality, there are two stages:

2a) where MA decides how much tt/chance a certain resource has (hard cap/soft cap), and here your skills have zero impact
2b) where, once the above checkpoint passed, you're checked wether you have the ability to hit that specific resource given your profession and your tools, and here skills do have an impact, but coming back 2a) is alot more important.

So if MA decides that only 1 per 1000 claims in respective areas can be redulite and then to a maximum of Y tt, then you can do nothing about it other than trying to be one of those who would fit within.

2c) I specifically left this by its own, because I find is the hardest to believe and probably the hardest to implement technically and of arguable balancing use, but sometimes I did had the feeling that aside from above conditions, we also have individual capital/allowance of some sorts - in regards to hard controlled resources-, but I am not convinced enough as to pull it out from "bogus" and into "serious" observations.
 
Kingoffaces properly has given the best info as he does more tests and plays more scientifically than me

Just to make it clear I am noob miner (L59 prospecting) and spent most of my time on a dead planet (ROCKtropia).

Skills are important as you can use higher gear to mine deeper. For example, using a terramaster 8 is great for ing and terrudite..

Even without using terramaster 8 you will have a better chance of hitting rarer mats. For example, someone who is L50+ will have a better chance to find rarer mats with F105, than A player who is the only L20. Maybe unlocking mineral sense helps.

Some mates don't like big amps. For example, if you goto where terrudite is you will find more lyst with L5 amp, even strapped to a terramaster 8.

Not all planets are the same. Rocktropia is very basic not many mixed in areas and has lines of lyst splitting up sections. Whereas Caly (not mined much there), but seems to have a lot more mixture and have waves. I have been recently mining an area with lots of iron and cumbriz, but once in a while belker appears.

An over-mined area can give different results to a place that is hardly touched.
 
Is it your avatar with skills and gear that influence what you find when you are out mining or has MA and the system already decided what you will find ?

Not expected a question from the guy who was legendary in mining, before I started to play seriously 13 years ago.
But here are my 2c:
My opinion is that only some range of claim is predetermined. Due to amp and tool decay. That's it.

Lets say with lv5 amp it's: 0-7 ped. you drop a probe --> roll a dice, and just get random number in this range. (This range is actually a bit complicated, it's more like variable function with good chance to get 5 ped, less chances to get 0 or 7, and a very low chance to get 7X10000 >>depending on amp or indor<< in case MA owes you a lot)

!!!
In this game you mostly play with yourself in past. If you wasted a lot before, get hof. If you was lucky - get average, but MA will try to keep you on 90% return of total spend prior, no matter your skills or gear in mining.
!!!

MA don't need to remember what did you craft, where did you mine and what was the results. They have basically only two numbers. Total spent and returned.

Skills in mining do not work as "looter" skill in hunting. Maybe they will come up with mining 2.0 in nearest 20 years, maybe not, but for now you will get same 90% return with any skills.
High decay tools increase claim range a bit tho. It has been tested long ago, but there is no Tool efficiency. Basically no difference what you mine with, except depth. Which is too tricky to take into consideration in this topic.
 
It seems to me that certain resources yield in waves in a given field while others are always available in a sense. Skills and gear open you up to more opportunities but if the resources are being balanced in some way they will be more difficult to find. In my opinion the system churn seems to seed certain resources when they are used.

Rare resources seem to have an amp cap in some way but skills and gear might open that cap to some extent.

I don't think its determined what you will find but just like hunting you will have days that just yield low and others the yield high.

I tend to run short tests on fields I know to see what is predominantly in that field or is it mostly default. Some LAs claim a wide range of resources but seem to be set on default.

So you do have influence in some respects by having the skills and gear to do a thorough search of a field but the balancing affects what actually spawns beyond default, in my opinion.
 
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Not expected a question from the guy who was legendary in mining, before I started to play seriously 13 years ago.

Its always interesting to discuss current state of mining although I have been on kinda low energy last 10 years and recently started to play abit more again. Some very interesting and good thoughts so far and they match my knowledge of current system.
I do find it " interesting " that a lvl 94 miner has not find a single stone of Redulite in last 10-14 days. Hence starting this thread to have more input.
Game is currently in pre-mayhem state and it always slows down considerably befor a big event. Seems bot MA and players are hoarding/ saving on the peds :cool:
 
Problem is this.

Mindark allows few dudes to run 3-4 bot avatars at same time. One bot is hunting small mobs for wave. When the wave starts other 2-3 bots are mining the wave minerals also they are doing redulite area on caly. They are doing this 24/7.
 
Problem is this.

Mindark allows few dudes to run 3-4 bot avatars at same time. One bot is hunting small mobs for wave. When the wave starts other 2-3 bots are mining the wave minerals also they are doing redulite area on caly. They are doing this 24/7.
Bots ? As in computercontrolled players ? Would be one thing if a group of players gang up and execute a strategy like this but with bots its clearly a breach of EULA ?? !!!
 
Stufff....

I'm with Kingofaces.

Also, back in the good old days, ores weren't variable. I.e. with lyst and oil fillers MA have since introduced. You could pick an area and you would know how many claims of a particular type of ore you would get.

Not in all areas, but in a lot, this is no longer the case. The number of finds of a particular ore/enmatter varies greatly now, with these lyst/oil induced areas. Just my particular thoughts/observations.

Rgds

Ace
 
I'm with Kingofaces.

Also, back in the good old days, ores weren't variable. I.e. with lyst and oil fillers MA have since introduced. You could pick an area and you would know how many claims of a particular type of ore you would get.

Not in all areas, but in a lot, this is no longer the case. The number of finds of a particular ore/enmatter varies greatly now, with these lyst/oil induced areas. Just my particular thoughts/observations.

Rgds

Ace
I agree 100%. Hence MA pretty much decided for you what you will find. And then there are waves of better MU stuff being handed out. As always we will adapt to it :)
 
Bots ? As in computercontrolled players ? Would be one thing if a group of players gang up and execute a strategy like this but with bots its clearly a breach of EULA ?? !!!


Yap Rocket192 and more miners can confirm the bots on LA 58 and 60. They got reported nothing happened. Guess we need more reports :)
 
Its always interesting to discuss current state of mining although I have been on kinda low energy last 10 years and recently started to play abit more again. Some very interesting and good thoughts so far and they match my knowledge of current system.
I do find it " interesting " that a lvl 94 miner has not find a single stone of Redulite in last 10-14 days. Hence starting this thread to have more input.
Game is currently in pre-mayhem state and it always slows down considerably befor a big event. Seems bot MA and players are hoarding/ saving on the peds :cool:
Remember last year when asked or questioned something similar? then we saw the redu mania few days later ?
 
Yap Rocket192 and more miners can confirm the bots on LA 58 and 60. They got reported nothing happened. Guess we need more reports :)

I see them sweep the FOMA domes from time to time and they don't even try to hide it. There are some low level bot hunters around fort Sisyphus as well. I guess running 24/7 operations might be the only way to catch them if the scripts are clever enough to operate within the rules. I remember it being difficult for MA to crack down on auto-clickers back in the day unless it was excessive or obvious, now its part of the game. Every MMO has issues with botting to some extent.
 
Problem is this.

Mindark allows few dudes to run 3-4 bot avatars at same time. One bot is hunting small mobs for wave. When the wave starts other 2-3 bots are mining the wave minerals also they are doing redulite area on caly. They are doing this 24/7.

I find hard to believe this can be used. Might be I am looking at the wrong things, but my impression is that mining waves are too small and too random to be abused,, something like few minutes at a time. A couple of drops when you could see the whatever "semirare" of the respective area and then back to blau/melchi/oil/lyst/iron even for one hour straight. If you're somebody with a job, with only 3 hrs or so to spare, of which a single mining run of 2hrs, you might very well (with a bit of badluck) call it a day at a perfect untouched 1-2% overall mu, while doing nothing wrong.
 
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I find hard to believe this can be used. Might be I am looking at the wrong things, but my impression is that mining waves are too small and too random to be abused,, something like few minutes at a time. A couple of drops when you could see the whatever "semirare" of the respective area and then back to blau/melchi/oil/lyst/iron even for one hour straight. If you're somebody with a job, with only 3 hrs or so to spare, of which a single mining run of 2hrs, you might very well (with a bit of badluck) call it a day at a perfect untouched 1-2% overall mu, while doing nothing wrong.

thats all they need those few mins ,a lso the quantity of the minerals is based on the inverval between waves. You can program a bot to stop when you get X mineral. Just that simple and thats how their bots are working :)
 
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I find hard to believe this can be used. Might be I am looking at the wrong things, but my impression is that mining waves are too small and too random to be abused,, something like few minutes at a time. A couple of drops when you could see the whatever "semirare" of the respective area and then back to blau/melchi/oil/lyst/iron even for one hour straight. If you're somebody with a job, with only 3 hrs or so to spare, of which a single mining run of 2hrs, you might very well (with a bit of badluck) call it a day at a perfect untouched 1-2% overall mu, while doing nothing wrong.

Small yes, Random no. Random = Gambling. So it's easy to know when a wave starts. It's "dynamic" you kno.
 
I been thinking about this too. I think from what I have been researching, it sounds like most miners are getting about 90% tt return over the long term and their hit rate is about 30%. Not sure if there are any uber miners who are able to get above the 90% tt return and the 30% hit rate.
If no one can get above that then it means the system has it fixed for us. at least to me it feels like the system has a fixed cap on hit rate and tt return.
If there are some super secret mining method that helps a few miners get to 95% tt return or maybe even near 100% tt return(highly doubtful) then probably it means we influence our own findings.
I know everyone has their own mining areas where they find good MU resources. I'm assuming what separates good miners from the average miners is the knowledge of the areas with good MU. While every miners should be getting around 90% tt return with around a 30% hit rate.
 
I'm not a miner, but just throwing this out there in terms of statistics.

Odds don't need a memory. If the system is set to average return rate at 90%, then over a long enough period of time, that's what everyone's return rate will end up around. A streak of good or bad luck might temporarily change your return rate, but over time, these streaks of luck will get averaged back towards normal. This process doesn't require the system to remember what kind of luck you've had in the past.
 
I'm not a miner, but just throwing this out there in terms of statistics.

Odds don't need a memory. If the system is set to average return rate at 90%, then over a long enough period of time, that's what everyone's return rate will end up around. A streak of good or bad luck might temporarily change your return rate, but over time, these streaks of luck will get averaged back towards normal. This process doesn't require the system to remember what kind of luck you've had in the past.
Spot on ! (y)

And to update. I found 2 stones redu last night so atlast the drought for me ended. ( input conspiracytheory by choice :);))
 
I been thinking about this too. I think from what I have been researching, it sounds like most miners are getting about 90% tt return over the long term and their hit rate is about 30%. Not sure if there are any uber miners who are able to get above the 90% tt return and the 30% hit rate.

I know everyone has their own mining areas where they find good MU resources. I'm assuming what separates good miners from the average miners is the knowledge of the areas with good MU. While every miners should be getting around 90% tt return with around a 30% hit rate.

I don't think its quite as static as a 30% hit rate, that seems really low. I've had really high hit rates in certain fields time after time but the resource yield and type might not be worth the effort aside from skill gains. Like hunting and crafting you are going to have variable hits and misses. The best possible option is finding a high hit rate field with decent MU resources with the right sized amps to take advantage of it. The appropriate combination of gear, skills, and personal knowledge help a great deal as well as reducing costs where you can. I also test fields quite frequently and move on when things seem "off". I do agree that I think they way EU is today there is a tendency towards 90-97% return over time where success it determined more via MU and acquiring in demand resources or items. There are out of the ordinary events in terms of loot size and rare item/resource drops to keep things exciting and people chasing that carrot on a stick so to speak.

I have my not so secret spots in EU that tend to yield more positive outcomes than negative ones and I can tell right away if things don't seem right in those areas. There are things that vex me about mining like the availability of certain common resources suddenly becoming scarce all over Calypso. I guess that is the dynamic part of EU. One thing I've noticed since I returned is I don't just plow through planet side areas expecting things to get better. I've even got to the point where I scale back mining until things look better and then scale back up.
 
I been thinking about this too. I think from what I have been researching, it sounds like most miners are getting about 90% tt return over the long term and their hit rate is about 30%. Not sure if there are any uber miners who are able to get above the 90% tt return and the 30% hit rate.

90% is terrifying, usually this number is used very liberally by people who have no idea what it means, but they like alot to see themselves quoted or something.

Depending on size of amps and finder used, your average cost in terms of MU paid will vary between some 2% to 7%.
Average MU found actually, in the real game these days trends around 3% (presuming a regular carpet bomb of a certain area, without who knows what knowledge about timing, which will inevitably be niche and irrelevant statistically).

So if you put these numbers together, it means that everyone and their mother would run a constant TOTAL deficit of about 12%. At a turnover of let's say 5k a day which is easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy to generate, it would mean 600 peds, for a monthly bingo of 1800§ lost monthly. Real americano rupia. For every average miner (these are average numbers, nothing to do with "uber"). This wouldn't be sustainable and nobody would mine.

Lower 90%, but still trending to 95% over ALOT of time one will experiment with indoor mining, but that nowadays is almost nonexistant compared to what it was 10 years ago. Other MUs, other system, other turnovers.

Hitrate on the other hand is something directly related to the tt output and is built-in, it has nothing to do with "knowledge". You can react to it, if is low (22 to 26), average (27 to 32) or excellent (32 to a very rare 40). It's the main screw MA are using to determine variance/volatility, because it has a buttload of importance how often an output of 0,5 will appear at an input of 3 (e.g. "tiny" witth 2 nrfs at single drops unamped ores). But you can't change it, it is what it is in a given time, given area for a given avatar.

To reach 95% you don't need supersecret stuff, you need a simple thing: volume and basic reason., like don't overlap yourself too much too fast.

MU on the other hand, yes, that is knowledge and also very important, experience. It's incredibly easy to get stuck with, say, 1k typo or 1k megan only to discover in horror that the bloody thing just doesn't sell, only as a quick example.

So to somehow put context to your thoughts, a bankroll of 3-4k, basic distance of 110 between drops (supereasy to do with lbml), a decent number of drops per area (this is another thing which you will tweak alot with experience), a decent number of drops per day (2-400 unamped, 200 low amped, stay away from amps higher than L3 until you know what you do), a basic super available finder like f212, efs, f105 etc ofc only maxed, log your finds carefully as in tt input vs tt output and a few relevant % stuff, a decent rate of activity in terms of days played, and you are almost guaranteed to hit around 95% tt return at a total turnover of 30 to 50k to give it enough time to average all trends. Wether you will profit or not this is an entirely different issue, but first you must iron your mechanics so to say, subtleties are an ulterior matter. Don't craft too early, don't set foot in lootable pvp, don't set foot in taxed areas, and even if you'll sink 1-200$ monthly for a few months, you will see trends settling down and you will start to figure things on your own. But actual first hand experience in a relevant volume is a must, there is no other way.

And a very personal advice, even if is out of scope of the thread: try to let as much place for hard measurable stats and less to fantasies.
 
In answer to the thread title:

It's fixed.?
 
One thing is clear for me super mined areas can give in a month even 80% even with 120-150k total cost. This one my worst rig experience in tt Cost 125935 , return 103605, and this cost was like in 20-24 days or so. Later on i recovered the tt but its just faking with your motivation.
 
I been thinking about this too. I think from what I have been researching, it sounds like most miners are getting about 90% tt return over the long term and their hit rate is about 30%. Not sure if there are any uber miners who are able to get above the 90% tt return and the 30% hit rate.
If no one can get above that then it means the system has it fixed for us. at least to me it feels like the system has a fixed cap on hit rate and tt return.
If there are some super secret mining method that helps a few miners get to 95% tt return or maybe even near 100% tt return(highly doubtful) then probably it means we influence our own findings.
I know everyone has their own mining areas where they find good MU resources. I'm assuming what separates good miners from the average miners is the knowledge of the areas with good MU. While every miners should be getting around 90% tt return with around a 30% hit rate.

I’ve posted my logs for awhile now where I typically get 98-99% long-term TT. Hit rate and how you react to it can definitely matter, especially as you amp up.
 
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