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Efficiency rating hexagonal tiling vs Fermat Spiral

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R4tt3xx

I want to believe
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
2,382
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South Africa
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Avatar Name
Alexis Sky Greenstar
Cost per Radius Hex Tiling = 1+6+12+18+..... eg at 4x radius cost = 37 base cost
Cost per Radius Fermat Spiral = 1+3^2 = 10 base cost
Overlap Hex Tiling - 9.4%
Overlap Fermat Spiral - 0%

Cost Savings 10/37*100 +- 27%


ring​
Cost Hex​
Cost Ferm​
​
0​
1​
1​
1​
1​
7​
2​
0.2857142857​
2​
19​
5​
0.2631578947​
3​
37​
10​
0.2702702703​
4​
61​
17​
0.2786885246​
5​
91​
26​
0.2857142857​
6​
127​
37​
0.2913385827​
7​
169​
50​
0.2958579882​
8​
217​
65​
0.2995391705​
9​
271​
82​
0.3025830258​
10​
331​
101​
0.3051359517​
11​
397​
122​
0.3073047859​
12​
469​
145​
0.3091684435​
13​
547​
170​
0.310786106​
14​
631​
197​
0.3122028526​
15​
721​
226​
0.3134535368​
16​
817​
257​
0.3145654835​
17​
919​
290​
0.3155603917​
18​
1027​
325​
0.3164556962​
19​
1141​
362​
0.3172655565​
20​
1261​
401​
0.318001586​
21​
1387​
442​
0.3186733958​
22​
1519​
485​
0.3192890059​
23​
1657​
530​
0.3198551599​
24​
1801​
577​
0.320377568​
Yea Hexagons absolutely suck
 
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It just gets so much better.

starting points = [int(xy coord/sqrt(probes)*diameter)+.5)*sqrt(probes)*diameter)
Point 0
Point id = startx+cos(2*pi()*ID*0.618)*sqrt(ID)*diameter starty-sin(2*pi()*ID*0.618)*sqrt(ID)*diameter

Reverse Engineer..

Distance = well distance formula
Angle = atan2, you get the idea..
 
If you want to be really cheaky..

sqrt(ID) can also be shown as ID^(1/2) :)
 
can you translate from mathematics to my language so I can understand, im extremely bad with math and I don't know than that 2x = 6, what is x.
Do you profit or not? and if so whats avg markup and total cost per day :)
Keep it simple, we are not all educated or with college degrees here, some of us are uneducated or jobless.We must eat too.
 
messi91 said:
can you translate from mathematics to my language so I can understand, im extremely bad with math and I don't know than that 2x = 6, what is x.
Do you profit or not? and if so whats avg markup and total cost per day :)
Keep it simple, we are not all educated or with college degrees here, some of us are uneducated or jobless.We must eat too.
Click to expand...
Sure..

Take a coin, place it down, thats ring 0, place another ring of 6 coins touching the first ring, thats ring 1, 7 coins in total. - This is called hexagonal tiling..

I will give you a square version of the spiral and you can work out how it compares.

Take a coin, that coin is in the shape of a square, not a circle, add 3 more coins to complete the square, add x more squares to complete the square and so on and so forth. The spiral takes that square design and makes it circular, rotating around it's centre. The best version of this can be seen in nature in the form of a sunflower.

A Fermat spiral, uses about 60% less probes for the same area covered, sure there are some holes in the coverage but there is no overlap, hexes also overlap about 9% of their area with each other.
 
messi91 said:
can you translate from mathematics to my language so I can understand, im extremely bad with math and I don't know than that 2x = 6, what is x.
Do you profit or not? and if so whats avg markup and total cost per day :)
Keep it simple, we are not all educated or with college degrees here, some of us are uneducated or jobless.We must eat too.
Click to expand...
Profiting, you jest...

MA keeps on changing the "parameters" of the game whenever they want to. Please play this game for the learning experience and entertainment, not for profit.
 
R4tt3xx said:
Profiting, you jest...

MA keeps on changing the "parameters" of the game whenever they want to. Please play this game for the learning experience and entertainment, not for profit.
Click to expand...

I dont believe MA changing parameters since the return is mega dynamic but overall its same result> double mining at 95%. The one thing they change is the quantity for certain minerals.
 
Alina said:
I dont believe MA changing parameters since the return is mega dynamic but overall its same result> double mining at 95%. The one thing they change is the quantity for certain minerals.
Click to expand...
Please stop making me agree with Alina.

giphy.gif
 
R4tt3xx said:
Please play this game for the learning experience and entertainment, not for profit.
Click to expand...
I am extremely sorry but I would never play this game for entertainment, I only play for profit and for RCE aspect.This is why i registered , this is why i deposited all my money and burrowed more to deposit more than I could afford, this is why i sacrificed all i had, this is why i sacrificed my future, my time my everything to make money here, there is no entertainment for me in this, just extreme risk and work.
For entertainment I play dota, cs, starcraft, heartstone because I am too lazy to learn new games but you get the point.
 
Alina said:
I dont believe MA changing parameters since the return is mega dynamic but overall its same result> double mining at 95%. The one thing they change is the quantity for certain minerals.
Click to expand...
If you mine for long enough, you start to see that patterns, like the sunflower spiral completely vanishes as soon as the wave starts.. And that there is a gap of 2 minutes every 15 minutes when you have a mini sort of wave.

It's shockingly regular seeing exactly when my hit rate which is about 50%, drops to near zero at certain times of the day and the even more shocking thing is that I am expecting all this to just vanish after one patch and to be back at square one again.
 
messi91 said:
I am extremely sorry but I would never play this game for entertainment, I only play for profit and for RCE aspect.This is why i registered , this is why i deposited all my money and burrowed more to deposit more than I could afford, this is why i sacrificed all i had, this is why i sacrificed my future, my time my everything to make money here, there is no entertainment for me in this, just extreme risk and work.
For entertainment I play dota, cs, starcraft, heartstone because I am too lazy to learn new games but you get the point.
Click to expand...
You have got to be kidding me.... So I cannot tell if you are trying to make fun of me or not...

My only reason for this post was to show the math and how inefficient (90.8%) hex tiling can be. I think that the areas are uniformly tiled in some sick kind of way.

Also if the hexgrid was what MA was using for its distribution system, you would hit 90% of the time and that would be extremely boring... Extreme variance is only noticeable when you start to drop peds worth of probes into the ground, the little rookie finder shows very little variance and shows things as they are.
 
R4tt3xx said:
You have got to be kidding me.... So I cannot tell if you are trying to make fun of me or not...

My only reason for this post was to show the math and how inefficient (90.8%) hex tiling can be. I think that the areas are uniformly tiled in some sick kind of way.

Also if the hexgrid was what MA was using for its distribution system, you would hit 90% of the time and that would be extremely boring... Extreme variance is only noticeable when you start to drop peds worth of probes into the ground, the little rookie finder shows very little variance and shows things as they are.
Click to expand...

I think the unanswered question here, is while Hex Grid is less tiling, what exactly are you optimising for? Time? Assuming 0 overlap on either model, you're only compacting the number of drops in a certain area which doesn't correlate with returns or 'profit'.
 
Nanashana said:
I think the unanswered question here, is while Hex Grid is less tiling, what exactly are you optimising for? Time? Assuming 0 overlap on either model, you're only compacting the number of drops in a certain area which doesn't correlate with returns or 'profit'.
Click to expand...
Versatility,,, A hex grid is rigid, the spiral is extremely well flexible.
 
The Mind said:
0% cost savings.
Drop > parameters check > dice roll > multiplier roll > output.
Everything else is your imagination.
Click to expand...

Drop > algorithm > output...

The thing that bugs me with using rng is why use it at all.. Problem is the blacklisting of locations when you drop a probe. A location, no matter if you hit or miss has to be black listed until refreshed, performing RNG on top of that is just an extra step, it would be more efficient just to have the claims pre generated using a seed that is sent from the server to the client. That certainly explains why when mining, the area just suddenly stops producing hits after almost 50% hitrate and this is normally observed right before a "wave"
 
R4tt3xx said:
it would be more efficient just to have the claims pre generated
Click to expand...
No. Its absurd to have a whole dynamic database of useless objects when you can run a single function of few lines on demand.
R4tt3xx said:
That certainly explains why when mining, the area just suddenly stops producing hits after almost 50% hitrate and this is normally observed right before a "wave"
Click to expand...
That doesnt explain anything.

Returns are the same. With your oogla boogla dancing in circles, or not.
 
Here's an experiment to try for you that might save some brain cells. Run in a random line, and auto-drop continuously. Ignore overlap. Ignore hit vs nrf. Ignore everything just drop 500 probes in a row as quickly as possible. What is your expected tt return? It is the same return as if you space them all out perfectly in a grid or spiral or whatever. it has already been debunked that you can carpet bomb spam mining and get the same avg results over time.
 
I've often thought of claim locations in the same way as mob locations (only more dispersed and fewer in quantity). Dropping a probe will use RNG x skill (in some combination) to determine the depth and range for you to hit a 'mob', then you get a loot if successful. The size of the loot is again RNG based with all the wavey caveats applied. So by this logic, optimising the position of dropping a probe *might* be a good thing to do ... ?

I could of course be completely wrong too.
 
Photon said:
I've often thought of claim locations in the same way as mob locations (only more dispersed and fewer in quantity). Dropping a probe will use RNG x skill (in some combination) to determine the depth and range for you to hit a 'mob', then you get a loot if successful. The size of the loot is again RNG based with all the wavey caveats applied. So by this logic, optimising the position of dropping a probe *might* be a good thing to do ... ?

I could of course be completely wrong too.
Click to expand...
I dont understand how that logic works. You already said, that loot and multiplier are determined by RNG. How positioning becomes relevant?
Do you think that the outcome of the dice is different if you throw it on the table than if you throw it on the floor?
The outcome is the same: random of the dice sides. After you drop ~1k on the table and ~1k on the floor, the "return" will be the same (average) for both of them.
 
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The Mind said:
I dont understand how that logic works. You already said, that loot and multiplier are determined by RNG. How positioning becomes relevant?
Do you think that the outcome of the dice is different if you throw it on the table than if you throw it on the floor?
The outcome is the same: random of the dice sides. After you drop ~1k on the table and ~1k on the floor, the "return" will be the same (average) for both of them.
Click to expand...
As I said, I could be completely wrong. But I challenge you to stay in one spot and drop 100 probes, then tell me how many times you get a hit :)
 
Photon said:
As I said, I could be completely wrong. But I challenge you to stay in one spot and drop 100 probes, then tell me how many times you get a hit :)
Click to expand...
Its already have been tested and posted on this same forum. You get none.
But this variable is out of the equation. This conversation is about "potential improvements on returns", be it by increasing the hit rate, decreasing costs till you get the same amount of claims, or any other. We always assume that the ground is "fresh" to be mined and we always assume movement.
Tests on ground cooldowns, after a single and multiple drops, also have been published here.
 
The Mind said:
Its already have been tested and posted on this same forum. You get none.
But this variable is out of the equation. This conversation is about "potential improvements on returns", be it by increasing the hit rate, decreasing costs till you get the same amount of claims, or any other. We always assume that the ground is "fresh" to be mined and we always assume movement.
Tests on ground cooldowns, after a single and multiple drops, also have been published here.
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I've been trying to understand what you're saying in each post you've made this thread but I'm failing, I'm sorry.

If I'm reading correctly, this post is all about location and how it can potentially make a difference (OP, please correct me if I'm wrong here), and not about "potential improvements on returns" - at least if I've read OP's calculations correctly.

The thesis is that by following a pattern similar to Fermat's Spiral you can maximise your search area. Of course this is predicated on location being a factor in mining. There is various evidence to say that it is, as you've agreed, and my analogy of a claim being an invisible mob was only meant to help clarify the idea.

If I might suggest you try to add to the discussion instead of telling people "Everything else is your imagination", or "With your oogla boogla dancing in circles, or not" then it'd be a more constructive discussion :)
 
Photon said:
I've been trying to understand what you're saying in each post you've made this thread but I'm failing, I'm sorry.

If I'm reading correctly, this post is all about location and how it can potentially make a difference (OP, please correct me if I'm wrong here), and not about "potential improvements on returns" - at least if I've read OP's calculations correctly.

The thesis is that by following a pattern similar to Fermat's Spiral you can maximise your search area. Of course this is predicated on location being a factor in mining. There is various evidence to say that it is, as you've agreed, and my analogy of a claim being an invisible mob was only meant to help clarify the idea.

If I might suggest you try to add to the discussion instead of telling people "Everything else is your imagination", or "With your oogla boogla dancing in circles, or not" then it'd be a more constructive discussion :)
Click to expand...
"Oogla boogla" perfectly describes the level of seriousness of this conversation when someone, with the knowledge of the game of today, assums you can cut a whooping 27% from your mining costs. You missed the whole point:

The Mind said:
0% cost savings.
Click to expand...
and
The Mind said:
Returns are the same.
Click to expand...

I might suggest you to try to ask for clarifications next time you dont understand what someone means. It will definitively add to a constructive discussion.
 
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