FYI: Enhancer consumption doesn't depend on base item

I'm starting to think that MA considers a factor we as a community have never really looked at: dppps.

Damage Per Pec Per Second © Artrat.


Hmm, I need to think about this some more.
 
I still think twice as many enhancer on 1 tier less is to big diffrence, i really wuld like a explanation on this from Bjorn.
 
29 hours of mm tier 5 + a204 is 29 * 60 * 86 * 120.50 = 18031620 of potential damage delivered. The same amount of damage with x5 tier 6 + evil is 99293. Which is ~ 1.5 times less uses. So to explain the difference, I need to find a plausible reason why MM breaks enhancers 1.3 times faster per use compared to X5.
MA <removed> state as a fact that breakage is random).

Do we have enough empirical data to prove this false <removed>?

<removed>
 
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Hey,

both things can still be true. Enhancers in small weapons give a small benefit so they last for 2600 shots, then with bigger guns the benefit grows in a linear way. But the amount of shots for which they last doesn't have to decline in a linear way. So there could be a cap, at which point the amount of shots an enhancer lasts can't get any slower. maybe that point is even reached before the X5.

I hope you know what i mean, i kinda can't explain in better in english right now. And i don't care to test it myself or anything but i just thought i write what i was thinking while reading this thread.


Regards
Thark
 
Both things can still be true. Enhancers in small weapons give a small benefit so they last for 2600 shots

Regards
Thark
Yes they sure do give a small benefit, that much I'd agree on. But I wouldn't vouche in using dmg enhs on an Opalo as they definately do not last anywhere near 2600 shots. I tried this and results were miserable.
 
Another exampel then that Bjorn is not telling the truth, enhancers should almost last forver on an opalo ;)

Yes they sure do give a small benefit, that much I'd agree on. But I wouldn't vouche in using dmg enhs on an Opalo as they definately do not last anywhere near 2600 shots. I tried this and results were miserable.
 
Is there a 3rd..Nth option I have missed? Keep in mind MA operates under Swedish law.

There is the option that Bjorn made his claims in good faith, but these were untrue.

And please don't throw words like "fraud" around if you don't know their meaning or application.
 
Just saw this thread as I was bored at work.

I have always thought taht slow weapons with high dmg would be the best weapons for enhancers.

Would get better data if we find some with high tiered Vrex 2k SGA and counting the enhancers break...
 
can't we all just collect some data? put a tier I dmg enhancer on the gun you are using, run a tracker (entropialife client or entropia hunter) and see after how many shots and dmg done it breaks..

big data... should work if we simply post it here
 
I have no specific evidence to back this up - just gut feeling and observation - so dont bother replying "not enough data"

I had never used enhancers but have had a tier II SGA opalo for a while. I bought a job lot of wepon damage enhancers I and II. I attached them, to the opallo SGA and an Igni L1010. I did runs for a few days with 50 ped ammo on each gun - hunting diff mobs. I was replacing the enhancers as often on each weapon and while the actual time they lasted varied sometime the ones on the sollomate broke first - sometimes the igni. The only thing I did notice was I seemed to go through the tier I enhancers faster than the Tier II but this could just be not enough data.

Personally I only use enhancers if I want oomph on a big gun, i dont bother putting them on guns like the SGA opallo anymore
 
Here's my paranoia:

I don't think that enhancers are related to reload, number of shots, or just calculated by a random factor, but to dmg/pec.
I did my calculations having in mind several factors, from which MU was the most important. As we all know, enhancers have their own tt. A tt that no one really cares about, thinking it's just something that's meant to be more than zero. However, I have noticed the tendency of a certain stable MU over time, which means.... 'it is how it needs to be'. What I mean with this is that...if crafters would want to do a monopoly over a certain item, they would buy all mats (or at least a huge amount of them) and sell enhancers on the price they dictate. And yet, it seems they cannot.
Beside this, if you look the the demand and offer (the simplest rule of economics) you will notice that no matter how big they fluctuate, the price remains within some parameters. Which leads to my paranoia stated above. Because on a normal market, when demand is huge price is high and when demand is scarce, price is very low. For example, if Auktuma drinks few beers more than enough one night and forgets to press 'stop' on crafting some enhancers, he could flood the marked with a certain type of enhancer, thus making offer too big and price would drop. But since this is not happening regardless of his eventual crafting spree, I started to think about how tt of enhancer and their mu are related.

So I came to the conclusion (not sure if I'm right...just personal impression here...) that everything has to be /pec. Heal/pec, dmg/pec, depth/pec etc...

Let's take an easy example. An item that I've recently bought. Fap-90. It has 7 pec/use for 40 heal. The one I bought has 3 tiers unlocked already. So that would mean that using 3 eco enhancers, it will have 15% less cost on use, which means 6.087 pec instead of 7 pec/use. *for easier understanding I will round it up at 1 pec/use*
So 1 pec less/use, from 3 eco enhancers on fap-90.
Now, medical eco enhancers have a preset tt of 0.6 ped (60 pec). Their mu is 150%'ish. So on a 150% mu, they cost 90 pec each. That makes it 2.7 ped for all 3 of'em = 270 pec. So after I will use the fap 270 times, the enhancers would have only payed for themselves. That number of uses only means the price of enhancers+their mu has been payed. However, after 270 uses not all 3 enhancers brake, which means that any heal I do after the first 270 heals and still has any enhancer there alive and kicking, is a heal done with 6 pec instead of 7, thus making me use 1 pec less/heal. Let's say that 1 brake after 270 heals. I will still have 2 for a decent number of heals, which means I will do an eco of 0.7 pec instead of 1, then 1 more brakes and I'm left with only 1, so I do an eco of 0.3 pec/heal untill that one brakes too.
But if you backup and see the bigger picture on a bigger scale, the fact that after 270 heals I have payed enhancers tt+mu from the eco they bring within themselves, means that the actual eco starts from there up until the point when all 3 brakes, becoming a smaller eco over time, when they start to brake one by one.
And knowing how hard eco enhancers brake on a fap, this means it's not bad to save some peds if you use the fap many times/day.

Now, the same thing happens with weapon dmg enhancers. How so? Well, their tt is related to what they do, multiplied by mu....a much bigger mu than the one from the example above.
The dmg enhancers have 80 pec tt, and with a mu of ~300%, they cost 2.4 ped each (240 pec).
As I've known ever since I joined PE, MA was never driven by randomization, mathematics, calculations, fast reload, or number of uses, but by *place name here*/pec. Anything/pec. They care about economics. So as everything cost, everything must be met on it's base cost.
I am much to used with calculation on the old style, so I will not use the new type of 'effective dmg', but the old dmg/pec matrix. The one which meant imk2 is 4.72 dmg/pec, Karma Killer - 4.13, Imp21 - 4.30 and so on.
In my opinion, MA rounded this on 4 dmg/pec. Which means that for each 4 dmg the enhancers bring to gun's benefit, it 'decays' 1 pec of it's tt+mu (not a visible decay, but a server registered decay that count its uses/benefits). That's why smaller dmg guns have their enhancers last longer, while bigger dmg guns have their enhancers brake faster. Because 1 enhancer on ml35 provides 8.1 dmg, which means 2.025 pec from those 240 pec (price of enhancer+mu), while on opalo only brings 0.8 dmg, which means 0.2 pec.
Of course this would mean that from those 240 pec cost of enhancer+mu, if placed on a ml35, it would last for a number of 240/2.025 = 118.51 total shots until brake. But this doesn't happen because gun doesn't shoot max dmg forever. This calculation is on max. For example, if you use an unamped ml35 that has 1 enhancer on it, that's 89.5 max dmg. But the max dmg is rarely met. It is all calculated around average dmg and the potency of enhancer into boosting that average dmg.
On this example, if the hunter is above lvl 100 proff and sees ml35 10/10 and 40.5-81 on dmg, without enhancer on the weapon he makes an average of 60.75 dmg and if he puts one enhancer on the weapon, he will see it 44.55-89.1, thus making an average of 66.825 dmg. So on a longer scale hunt, the minimum dmg of the weapon is pulled upwards by the enhancers boost, depending on how many enhancers you use, making the average dmg bigger (which translates into that 'effective dmg' eco that I can't get used to).
But the dmg enhancers work exactly as the fap-90 example. They have a number of pecs which needs to be met to make the enhancer pay for its cost and then every shot extra is a shot that the hunter benefits from...
For example, 5 dmg enhancers = 1200 pec on a mu of 300%. From those 1200 pec, each shot uses a number of pecs (or even under 1 pec) that pay for the random dmg done on that particular shot (if the shot was actually boosted by the extra dmg provided by the enhancer). It's like a pool of pecs, from which an invisible hand pulls them out accordingly to what they deliver. So in the end they pay their price...if calculated on a bigger scale, over time.
The amount of average dmg is small though, that's why they brake fast on big dmg guns and they last longer on small dmg guns. Because the average dmg increase on Opalo consumes such a small amount of pecs from that 1200 pec pool (the cost of 5 enhancers+their mu), compared with how a ml35 eats those pecs when using a much bigger average dmg increase.

But in the end, it is all reduced to dmg/pec.... Or how I said earlier - *place name here*/pec... meaning anything/pec.
That's why they have a preset tt and that's why the mu is stable no matter of what crafters and traders do... The price is held on those numbers so that everyone pays the correct price. Because if a dmg enhancer is 500%, then its price will be 400 pec instead of 240 pec, so then we need to pray that it doesn't brake until the 400 pec were payed, or else we start doing bad eco hunts...
And last, but not least, that's why MA keeps price from falling, because if it would fall, then we would all do eco hunts, eco healing, eco mining, eco everything...
If the price remains within some numbers, we move along inside a certain parameter that makes those 4dmg/pec be 3.5dmg/pec, or 4.5dmg/pec...depending on what price we buy them.

But no matter of what we calc, or how we analyze this, the randomization only counts when the price was met. When we pay for the tt+mu, then begins our luck - for those of us who's enhancer didn't brake...and the eco counts until the enhancer brakes. From that moment on we benefit, using that tool with a lower price for a reduced random number of times until enhancer eventually brakes.
That's why there is a number of 10 total tiers. Because decimal calculation is perfect here. For example, when you calc enhancer cost+mu on a gun with 10 dmg enhancers, you don't just have one in mind, but all 10. So the factor that make us profit a bit, is the number of enhancers still holding after they had all payed for themselves while hunting, by providing the extra dmg for which they burn the pecs from their tt+mu. Because if you fire a certain number of shots and reach the point when you have payed for all 10 of them, but only 4 or 5 brake along the way, you still have 5 to benefit from until they brake. And yes... MA made it so that after that point they don't last much longer, but there's still a decent amount of time in which the hunter uses his weapon with a bigger eco than if he didn't had any enhancers at all. That eco is dropping rapidly considering he had already reached the critical number of shots (as the enhancers start to brake), but is scaled in correlation with that decimal factor of the ten tiers. Meaning that if your're left with only 5 enhancers after you payed all 10 by using them, you fire 100 shots with 5 enancers, 1 brakes, then 100 more shots with 4 enhancers, another one brakes, then another 100 shots with 3 enhancers and so on... That's why sometimes enhancers seem to hold on for a long time and then all of a sudden many of them brake in a short period of time. Because they're the ones left after we payed for the whole bunch of them...

Because in the end (returning to the fap90 example), I am glad to use it 270 times only to use the eco provided by the 3 enhancers just to pay for them, knowing that each heal done after that will make me use 1 pec less.... until all 3 of them brake. And that's exactly the same for hunters or miners too. If we calc tt of enhancer+mu + number of enhancers used + dmg of gun + your average dmg (if you maxed it out, or if it's sib), we will ~know at what point we will start to make pecs for our own eco....and that's always after we 'work' for MA... First we pay the price of the enhancers and only after that we get to deal with the randomization factor that decides how many times we benefit from that ehancer boost.

Sorry for the long comment. I rarely can hold myself from talking this much. :ahh: I guess I had to pay for my enhancers first and only then I started to talk less and less, until I finally stopped... :laugh:
 
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Good Mother of All Long Posts :lolup: !

It was said once in this thread in some form, if enhancers are designed to break directly proportional with the benefit they provide, then putting the old used ones at AH is like trying to sell almost broken L items for full MU.

My guess, only buy enhancers directly from crafters and only after they swear on they first born that they sell genuine fresh items.

My only time using them damage enhancers on a small gun (bought them from a shop) - both of them broke consecutively after just few hundreds shots.
 
if enhancers are designed to break directly proportional with the benefit they provide

Unless that information isn't saved on the enhancer but on the item in which the bonus was provided.
 
Unless that information isn't saved on the enhancer but on the item in which the bonus was provided.

That would imply that using the same enhancers on other virgin big guns or finders one can go through 10 L items, for example. Not very handy to track the enhancer "wear".

Two hardcore hunters can test this by using fresh enhancers to the limit they know they start to break, then the 2nd hunter receives the used ones from the 1st and the 1st continue with fresh enhancers.

If the guns are storing some info on server, the enhancers would break about the same time, if is stored on enhancers as is more logical then 2nd player will break them long before the 1st.

My noob :twocents:
 
Good Mother of All Long Posts !

:laugh: Sorry.... :ahh:

Vlad, what you say it's logical, but ask yourself this question - Would MA leave enhancer 'decay'....or should I say 'brake point' independent of it's tt+mu? I mean...you know another domain where it's not about *anything*/pec? Why would they leave something that has a determined tt (each enhancer has a certain tt, they are not all the same) and a very stable mu over time, on the hands of fortune...on the wind of change?!...
Ok, I should have said 'ask yourself a few questions'.... :laugh:
I just cannot believe that enhancers don't depend on their tt+mu...
And the problems you thought of, could be fixed by connecting the number of uses to the user, not to its gun or its enhancer... I mean - you use one enhancer a certain number of shots, your 'counter' knows how many times you used that type of enhancer and if you try to detach it and put a 'new' one, you will still be given the remaining number of shots left to do until you have 'payed' its price, rather then a fresh new one.... while the other you detached, if you sell it to another person, it's 'fresh' again....resetted so it can be used at its full potential.
 
from what i seen on my gun the other day a dmg enhancer 4 broke and not even 5 shot after another dmg enhancer 4 broke unless someone sold on the market use enhancers i baught 50 of them

they brake random
 
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I just realized I've made a huge mistake in the long comment.
The weapon dmg enhancers pay for themselves within the extra ammo burned and decay brought to the gun, thus leaving their tt+mu entirely on the buyer's shoulders. That cost is never recuperated from the hunt. Each weapon dmg enhancer cost 2.4 ped (mu included) and this cost is only payed by the buyer, as long as each shot fired pays its own cost.
On cap-10 smuggler, 1 dmg enhancer adds 54 ammo (that's 0.54 pec), plus a decay (haven't tested to notice how much of it). So that means it's (at least) 0.54 pec/shot for 2.4 dmg. With the extra decay I'm sure it rounds up at that 4 dmg/pec I had in mind. So it pays for it. The only problem is that the tt+mu of enhancer is lost during this process.
This makes me believe even more in my tt+mu theory, because from my fap90 example, I notice how this calculation shows us that the eco enhancers are accuracy and economy, while dmg enhancers are purely for pvp or for competitions (such as Mayhem) where you want big dps in a short period of time. Rather than that, I think it's not wise to use dmg enhancers on a larger scale, because the cost of the enhancers is not payed within the hunt by the enhancers themselves, but only by the hunter, as long as the ammo+decay covers the dmg boost...
 
It was said once in this thread in some form, if enhancers are designed to break directly proportional with the benefit they provide, then putting the old used ones at AH is like trying to sell almost broken L items for full MU.

You don't have to have "memory" on enhancers (or base item) if you adjust the risk of breakage.

Let's assume you have an enhancer with 1 PED TT.

On item A, MA wants each use of the enhancer to cost 2 PEC. So, they set the risk of breaking, for each use, to 2%. On item B, MA wants the each use of the enhancer to cost 0.5 PEC, so they set the risk of breaking to 0.5%.

How to determine if an enhancer should break; well I have no idea how loots and Waves work, but let's for simplicitly assume (for enhancers), each time an enhancer is used, you request a random value between say 0 and 9999. In real Word, this will translate to a range 0.00-99.99%. Then you compare the random value you get, let's say you get 150 (0150). If you're using item A, this will be below the breakage Point (2.00%=0200) so enhancer breaks. If you're using item B, this will be above breakage Point (0.50=0050) so enhancer is kept intact.

Now the random value used (0000-9999) doesn't seem entirely random but rather tied to loots, so let's just assume MA instead of a true random function calls for the same function that evaluates which "loot tier" you should get on a mob.

As for dmg enhancers, keep in mind that they doesn't, by themselves, add to increase economy on the weapon, the weapon will have same dmg/pec regardless if you use them or not. The main economy factor is the dmg/sec the weapon will provide and the value of the benefit is porbably more tied to that, but only a part of it (assuming, for instance, while shooting you will evade 4 hits from mobs out of 5 so only 1/5 of an estimated defense cost is used).
 
As for dmg enhancers, keep in mind that they doesn't, by themselves, add to increase economy on the weapon, the weapon will have same dmg/pec regardless if you use them or not. The main economy factor is the dmg/sec the weapon will provide and the value of the benefit is porbably more tied to that, but only a part of it (assuming, for instance, while shooting you will evade 4 hits from mobs out of 5 so only 1/5 of an estimated defense cost is used).

Each dmg enhancer added pays for it's boost with the ammo it burns and the decay it adds to the gun. So then who pays for its cost when you buy it?
One enhancer cost 2.4 ped on a mu of 300%. The dmg boost is not linear on ammo added. Meaning that if you add an enhancer on Cap-10 smuggler, it will add 54 ammo (0.54 pec), on a XT3 it adds 31 ammo (0.31 pec) and so on...depending on weapon's base dmg. So the more dmg it adds, the more ammo it burns, thus paying its boost.
So then - who covers the initial cost of the enhancer (tt+mu)?!....
 
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That would imply that using the same enhancers on other virgin big guns or finders one can go through 10 L items, for example. Not very handy to track the enhancer "wear".

Two hardcore hunters can test this by using fresh enhancers to the limit they know they start to break, then the 2nd hunter receives the used ones from the 1st and the 1st continue with fresh enhancers.

If the guns are storing some info on server, the enhancers would break about the same time, if is stored on enhancers as is more logical then 2nd player will break them long before the 1st.

My noob :twocents:

nice idea.
 
who covers the initial cost of the enhancer (tt+mu)?!....

Nobody, it's a loss, the extra that you pay for higher DPS that potentially can help you win a Most Loot event or a Mayhem (really can't see any other reasonable use for them).
 
Nobody, it's a loss, the extra that you pay for higher DPS that potentially can help you win a Most Loot event or a Mayhem (really can't see any other reasonable use for them).

My point exactly!
So besides Mayhem and eventual pvp, using dmg enhancers would only ruin the eco in the long run, due to high cost of enhancers.
And yet, it's the only enhancer who's cost is not recoup from the hunt. I guess is like a cherry on top of a cake. You want the spoils, you have to pay for it... :)
 
My point exactly!
So besides Mayhem and eventual pvp, using dmg enhancers would only ruin the eco in the long run, due to high cost of enhancers.
And yet, it's the only enhancer who's cost is not recoup from the hunt. I guess is like a cherry on top of a cake. You want the spoils, you have to pay for it... :)

Ehm...

Think of a slow gun. That will make it more "eco".

Gun1 do 60/60 attack per min doing 50 dps
Gun2 do 30/30 attack per min doing 50 dps.

You think both will break same? no
 
Ehm...

Think of a slow gun. That will make it more "eco".

Gun1 do 60/60 attack per min doing 50 dps
Gun2 do 30/30 attack per min doing 50 dps.

You think both will break same? no

I'm sorry.... I don't follow...
A gun with 60 dmg and 60 attacks per min does 60 dps, not 50, while a gun with 30 dmg and 30 attacks per minute does 15 dps, not 50.
 
I'm sorry.... I don't follow...
A gun with 60 dmg and 60 attacks per min does 60 dps, not 50, while a gun with 30 dmg and 30 attacks per minute does 15 dps, not 50.

i think he is saying 60/60 being maxed on a weapon as apposed to the 30/60 when start sib.

enhancer break rate is roughly a static 1 enhancer per 1,000 uses per tier (there is debate that various types of weapons have different break rates)

so a weapon that has 30 uses per min maxed, the enhancers will last roughly 2 times longer then on a weapon with 60 uses per min maxed. making the slower weapon "more eco" even though it might have the same dps as a weapon that shoots twice as fast.
 
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I'm sorry.... I don't follow...
A gun with 60 dmg and 60 attacks per min does 60 dps, not 50, while a gun with 30 dmg and 30 attacks per minute does 15 dps, not 50.

My bad sorry, but just as sidex said.
 
So tell me in simplest terms is it worth using at least Accuracy enhancers? Do they pay themselves? Or only worth if the weapon has high damage?
For example I have an Igni L1000 tier 4.4, with a104 amp 38.2 dps and 2.941 dpp, max damage 54. Would it be worth using accuracy enhancers on it? For the extra % crit, has anyone tested how much it increases (on a maxed sib weapon?).
 
i think he is saying 60/60 being maxed on a weapon as apposed to the 30/60 when start sib.

enhancer break rate is roughly a static 1 enhancer per 1,000 uses per tier (there is debate that various types of weapons have different break rates)

so a weapon that has 30 uses per min maxed, the enhancers will last roughly 2 times longer then on a weapon with 60 uses per min maxed. making the slower weapon "more eco" even though it might have the same dps as a weapon that shoots twice as fast.


I really hope you don't think I'm trying some cheap sarcasm here, but.... a weapon shooting 30 attacks/min is indeed shooting two times slower than a weapon shooting 60 attacks/min... :ahh::scratch2:

And by the way, my point is the cost of enhancer+mu, not number of shots. Because even if a dmg enhancer can shoot 100, 1.000, or 10.000 shots, it still doesn't pay for it's initial cost.
You benefit from it's boost while you use it, but along the way it makes you pay for everything it provides - the extra dmg. The only thing that is not payed in the end, is the tt+mu....unfortunately... :( But thankfully, it's the only one with this 'problem'. Rest of'em cover their own cost as they are used...leaving you with a bit of an extra eco before they brake.
 
So tell me in simplest terms is it worth using at least Accuracy enhancers? Do they pay themselves? Or only worth if the weapon has high damage?
For example I have an Igni L1000 tier 4.4, with a104 amp 38.2 dps and 2.941 dpp, max damage 54. Would it be worth using accuracy enhancers on it? For the extra % crit, has anyone tested how much it increases (on a maxed sib weapon?).

TBH i dont believe enhacers are worth using unless you:

1, can win an event and make the peds back.
2, want to increase skill speed (Dmg Enh).
3, average MU on a mob can pay for the enhancers.


every day use gets really REALLY expensive unless the mobs you hunt cover the tt% loss MA takes as their cut + enhancer MU

at tier 10 with all accuracy ehnacers only increases your average crit rate from 2% to 3%... if you want that extra 1% crit, accuracy nanobots might be a better, cheaper option depending on their MU and how often you use them and if the mob you are hunting can pay for them.
 
TBH i dont believe enhacers are worth using unless you:

1, can win an event and make the peds back.
2, want to increase skill speed (Dmg Enh).
3, average MU on a mob can pay for the enhancers.


every day use gets really REALLY expensive unless the mobs you hunt cover the tt% loss MA takes as their cut + enhancer MU

at tier 10 with all accuracy ehnacers only increases your average crit rate from 2% to 3%... if you want that extra 1% crit, accuracy nanobots might be a better, cheaper option depending on their MU and how often you use them and if the mob you are hunting can pay for them.
ok, that cleared things up for me. Thanks :)
 
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