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Rayne Jade said:
Just using Nutter's example... not picking on Nutter...

I never understood the part about it being "stealing". In order for someone else to get an item the item must either be traded PVP or dropped on the ground. In both cases, there are reminders prior to finishing the action that the user must click to complete it. Based on that, I could argue that the user willingly dropped or traded said item. Therefore, how is it a theft? :scratch2:

Scam perhaps... theft... no.

More individual responsibility IRL and in virtual life would lead to a lot of out of work lawyers (which I do not see as a bad thing).
Click to expand...

Theft is easy to show. Here is the Indiana law. Most of the US theft laws are very similar. I've bolded some that apply in EU quite often. Remember, you don't have to meet every point in here, you only have to meet one for it to be a theft.

IC 35-43-4
Chapter 4. Theft, Conversion, and Receiving Stolen Property

IC 35-43-4-1
Definitions
Sec. 1. (a) As used in this chapter, "exert control over property" means to obtain, take, carry, drive, lead away, conceal, abandon, sell, convey, encumber, or possess property, or to secure, transfer, or extend a right to property.
(b) Under this chapter, a person's control over property of another person is "unauthorized" if it is exerted:
(1) without the other person's consent;
(2) in a manner or to an extent other than that to which the other person has consented;
(3) by transferring or encumbering other property while failing to disclose a lien, adverse claim, or other legal impediment to the enjoyment of that other property;
(4) by creating or confirming a false impression in the other person;
(5) by failing to correct a false impression that the person knows is influencing the other person, if the person stands in a relationship of special trust to the other person;
(6) by promising performance that the person knows will not be performed; (7) by expressing an intention to damage the property or impair the rights of any other person; or
(8) by transferring or reproducing:
(A) recorded sounds; or
(B) a live performance;
without consent of the owner of the master recording or the live performance, with intent to distribute the reproductions for a profit.
(c) As used in this chapter, "receiving" means acquiring possession or control of or title to property, or lending on the security of property.
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.3. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.44; Acts 1979, P.L.300, SEC.1; P.L.180-1991, SEC.7.
 
Thantos said:
According to you, no law has been broken, so how can I call the police? They do not investigate civil complaints, only criminal complaints.
Click to expand...

Please see the example given.

You are free to call the police anytime you wish. The police will decide if a crime has been commited and (in the UK) the crown prosecution service will decide whether to go forward with a criminal prosecution for whatever crime the police believe to have been commited based upon the evidence gathered and the likelyhood of a conviction.

MA ask you to go to the poilice in order to establish whether a RL crime has occured...For example, MA do not know whether you have been held at knifepoint and forced to log in and hand over the virtual items to another avatar. In which case they would co-operate with a police force in the investigation of this crime (extortion, threatening behaviour, affray, etc).
If you went to the police with the EULA/TOU and asked them to investigate the theft of your ImpFap which has a TT value of around $0.20 (a guess..impfap TT=200 ped?)...Do you honestly believe that they would investigate this 'crime' or indeed view it as a crime?

Go to a police station and ask them to investigate the theft of a virtual item and see what you get told...

You keep refering to the items as 'property', 'ownership' etc.

The items do not belog to us. They belong to MA. This is clearly stated in the TOU/EULA and is agreed to each time you log in. You are not forced to agree, you can click cancel and go play something else.
If the item is never 'stolen' from MA, what crime is commited? (regardless of whether the 'item' moves from one avatar to another.). This is why I insist that no crime is commited as MA retain title, physical ownership, copyright etc of the said virtual items.

It would be like reporting having had my TV stolen because the wife said 'that TV is mine now'. The TV is still in the house we share, I still have possesion of it, I can use it any way I wish. Do you believe a crime has been commited in this instance?

steal - take without the owner's consent. MA is the owner...
 
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nutter said:
Please see the example given.

You are free to call the police anytime you wish. The police will decide if a crime has been commited and (in the UK) the crown prosecution service will decide whether to go forward with a criminal prosecution for whatever crime the police believe to have been commited based upon the evidence gathered and the likelyhood of a conviction.

MA ask you to go to the poilice in order to establish whether a RL crime has occured...For example, MA do not know whether you have been held at knifepoint and forced to log in and hand over the virtual items to another avatar. In which case they would co-operate with a police force in the investigation of this crime (extortion, threatening behaviour, affray, etc).
If you went to the police with the EULA/TOU and asked them to investigate the theft of your ImpFap which has a TT value of around $0.20 (a guess..impfap TT=200 ped?)...Do you honestly believe that they would investigate this 'crime' or indeed view it as a crime?

Go to a police station and ask them to investigate the theft of a virtual item and see what you get told...

You keep refering to the items as 'property', 'ownership' etc.

The items do not belog to us. They belong to MA. If the item is never 'stolen' from MA, what crime is commited? (regardless of whether the 'item' moves from one avatar to another.). This is why I insist that no crime is commited as MA retain title, physical ownership, copyright etc of the said virtual items.

It would be like reporting having had my TV stolen because the wife said 'that TV is mine now'. The TV is still in the house we share, I still have possesion of it, I can use it any way I wish. Do you believe a crime has been commited in this instance?
Click to expand...

I surrender. This makes my head hurt too much. I'm glad you own nothing in game and you are happy with this. If all your items disappear, who cares, you don't own anything. I'm guessing you are not a depositer, due to this attitude. Can I borrow your best weapon, amp and armor? It doesn't belong to you anyways. I will file a support case and see if MA will let me borrow their armor from you. I don't see why they wouldn't let me since they own it and they aren't using it. If you are a depositer, then you are saying that you've dumped money into this game and have no expectation for your items of value to be protected from theft. You do not care if someone takes them (because they belong to MA) and you don't care if you get any money from their potential sale.

I hope I have the willpower not to post about this anymore. Good luck all. Your thousands of dollars spent here don't belong to you and you have no right to them. And common sense says that no court would say you have a right to them. Even though courts around the world have already said that you do. Oh well. Have fun.

No abuse intended, I really am getting a headache. :silly2:
 
I would just like to add that I am enjoying this exchange of views. It makes a nice change to be able to debate an important matter such as this on a forum without someone calling the other names or getting abusive.

:yay:

Carry on :D

In response...

I have played EU (formerly PE) for about 5 years in total, deposited a total of about $12k in that time and have mostly enjoyed every minute of it.

The money I have deposited in this game has paid for my enjoyment at the level I expected for my money. I have not 'dumped' money into this game (although at times the loot return has felt like I have not gotten my moneysworth) and have not lost more than I can afford to lose.

I have used the money to play the game the way I wanted to play it. As such, I don't have the use of expensive items or rare goods. I simply hunted/mined or crafted to the best of my abilities. Yes, I have used the better items at stages in my game career, but have sold them along the way to further fund my avatar progression.

I have treated EU as I feel it was intended to be treated...as a game, not as an investment platform. Those who feel they are 'investing' in EU cannot have read the EULA/TOU or if they have they cannot have understood them, or if they have they must be extremely confident that the aforementioned documents do not apply to them...

Good luck to all :)
 
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Rayne Jade said:
Just using Nutter's example... not picking on Nutter...

I never understood the part about it being "stealing". In order for someone else to get an item the item must either be traded PVP or dropped on the ground. In both cases, there are reminders prior to finishing the action that the user must click to complete it. Based on that, I could argue that the user willingly dropped or traded said item. Therefore, how is it a theft? :scratch2:

Scam perhaps... theft... no.

More individual responsibility IRL and in virtual life would lead to a lot of out of work lawyers (which I do not see as a bad thing).
Click to expand...

It's called Fraud

The specific legal definition varies by legal jurisdiction. Fraud is a crime, and is also a civil law violation.
Click to expand...
 
burnsey said:
It's called Fraud
Click to expand...

Right... my point was about calling it THEFT or STEALING.

On another note... it is a good thing there are 100s of laws to protect me from myself :laugh:
 
Kiriku Surgun said:
It is all country dependant, some have more evolved ''cyber'' laws or cases.
So based on that fact, the website is potentially interesting, and also pretty complex to do so I geuss, unless the only law enforced is the swedish one.
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Most of this is so called "immateriall law" issues. And there is internationall laws that most of the western world follow. Sweden is a member of European Union and the imateriall laws are based on the EU regulations.

BTW, to learn more about scams and such, read Kevin Mitnicks cook book on the matter. There's lots to learn for people who don't understand that they need to be carefull in this part of the reality.
 
This discussion again...

I'm not going to quote myself on the last one, I'll just try to briefly explain how it works (or rather, doesn't):

- EULA is a one-sided non-negotiable forced contract. which is an illegal form of contracting in any country. Plus, it is elaborated on a certain country but with certain features that might be illegal on the participant's country. Accepting illegal contracts, in any country, renders the contract void. The whole "MA owns all" discussion is moot.

- There is no unanimous understanding of which country's laws any given lawsuit should follow (unless all parties involved are swedish), since there are many ways to interpret it: data being debated can be considered being located in the client's machine, MA's servers or the scammer's country.

- Lack of an international treaty that englobes each and every country to make the regulations on "vitual crimes" more uniform, forces the "virtual crimes" to be analyzed in a case-by-case basis. If player A is chinese and scams the item X off player B who is spanish, it is one case. If player A is spanish and scams the same item X off player B who is chinese, it's another case. If both players are chinese, it's another, etc. ad nauseam.

These are the main issues with EU and it's EULA and as you can deduct there is no "magical formula" to solve legal issues involving this game.
 
FallenAngel said:
if you make a contract saying you have the right to kill me, i sign it, you kill me, is it legal or murder? ;)
Click to expand...

In Australia it is illegal in itself to make a contract pertaining to an illegal act. Furthermore said contracts are not binding ... so you would be in double deep shit :laugh:
 
addz said:
In Australia it is illegal in itself to make a contract pertaining to an illegal act. Furthermore said contracts are not binding ... so you would be in double deep shit :laugh:
Click to expand...

Here said contracts are bindnig although hard to proove in many cases
 
Huskie said:
These are the main issues with EU and it's EULA and as you can deduct there is no "magical formula" to solve legal issues involving this game.
Click to expand...

We made the website for exactly this reason, so that people can get help to solve their problems.

We are currently implementing a discussion forum on the site, and we are working on an article regarding theft of virtual items and what you can do to prevent it and solve it after it happens. If anyone has relevant info regarding such theft and how it was solved or reasons why it could not get solved please submit them on our website so that others may benefit from your experience.

We will also be consulting with professional lawyers from time to time for advise whenever our finances allow it.
 
**Made my points, Good luck with the site :)
 
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EntropiaLaw said:
We made the website for exactly this reason, so that people can get help to solve their problems.

We are currently implementing a discussion forum on the site, and we are working on an article regarding theft of virtual items and what you can do to prevent it and solve it after it happens. If anyone has relevant info regarding such theft and how it was solved or reasons why it could not get solved please submit them on our website so that others may benefit from your experience.

We will also be consulting with professional lawyers from time to time for advise whenever our finances allow it.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand it, and find it an excellent initiative you have there.

My post was mostly directed at the others who were engaging in the "MA owns everything" discussion. :)
 
Dutch court: Stealing virtual items is a crime

<removed...>
 
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Thank you NotVF, I found a pcworld article that appears to be about the same case which was posted already a year ago, though it has less details it is indeed very interesting looking at what arguments were used.

We have made our first article which is a introductory article with background information on situations that have arisen in other virtual worlds, please take a look at http://www.entropialaw.com/

We are making a larger section relating to scam/theft of virtual goods and are still looking for submissions and information, if you have ever filed a police report for an item stolen in Entropia or if you have taken other legal action please pm me here on EF or submit on the website with relevant information if you would be interested in sharing your story.

We would like to thank everyone for all the positive feedback we have already received.
 
EntropiaLaw said:
We have written a new article, this is our first article regarding real legal action taken against another player in the Entropia Universe. Go to our website for more details: http://www.entropialaw.com/?p=60
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Nice article; a little more detail and it would've been perfect.
In any case, Gratz to you and your team for the effort; I am sure that sooner or later we we'll hear less and less about a certain one-sided EULA.
 
Read that first story about owing money in entropia, very interesting. +rep
 
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